NoSaint Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) I find it ironic that those who support all things Bills and never criticize the organization still prefer to support senior management and not the coaching staff/personnel department in this issue. But, I guess the best away to avoid a report which strikes at the heart of what some believe is to merely disregard it as "trumped-up truths" from a writer we don't like. I would think the football people who get paid to, you know, win football games would be the side selected by those fans who believe in all things Bills. Big cat certainly questions bills decisions and isn't a blind supporter- even if I don't always agree with his takes. Here all he is saying is that we have Tim's story which given Tim's lengthy history possibly isn't the full story and floating other ideas. That you condemn him as blindly supporting the front office I think says more about your eagerness for a story confirming your beliefs (hopes?) than it does about cats feelings towards the front office. I'm doubting he has any warm and fuzzy feelings towards littman/overdorf, yet is willing to question a story that hits them hard. Edited February 26, 2014 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Interesting... Still think they should at least touch on it and say that sources told them it was bunk... I heard them touch on it on Monday or Tuesday... they breezed over it and said 1) they didn't think fans cared what went on behind the scenes and only cared about what happened on the field, 2) they didn't think it was really "news", and 3)they couldn't think of enough Sabres analogies to make it a worthwhile part of their show. OK, I added that last part myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXBILLSFAN Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I heard them touch on it on Monday or Tuesday... they breezed over it and said 1) they didn't think fans cared what went on behind the scenes and only cared about what happened on the field, 2) they didn't think it was really "news", and 3)they couldn't think of enough Sabres analogies to make it a worthwhile part of their show. OK, I added that last part myself. Probably too difficult to extract their heads from Russ's back side long enough to engage in a discussion that requires so many brain cells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cash Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I fully believe the stories about Littman/Overdorf interfering with football operations. This is hardly the first time these kinds of rumors have come out, and it just makes too much sense. I don't think they interfere 100% of the time, but I do think that 1 or both of them sometimes act as a shadow GM, and both of them definitely rank higher in the organization than Whaley or Marrone. What I don't know is exactly where Russ Brandon stands in all this. There are a wide variety of opinions in this thread, ranging from "Brandon is 100% with Whaley/Marrone" to "Brandon is 100% a lifer, even though he's not as old as the others." Even among the former contingent, there's a wide variety -- a few seem convinced that he's going to make major changes soon, more think that he has no power to change this situation, and probably the most don't claim to know. I.e., "this is a test of Russ Brandon's power." For me, I don't claim to know either Brandon's allegiance or his power within the organization. (If we *did* see major changes, that would pretty much prove that he's against the lifers and has full control of the team, but if we don't, it doesn't tell us anything.) What I tend to think, but am not confident of, is that Brandon is probably somewhere in the middle. He was pretty directly responsible for Whaley getting his current job, and though he claimed that he wasn't the one who hired Marrone, those two have a Syracuse connection that was pointed out at the time of Marrone's hiring. He has shown some tendencies towards newer-type thinking and strategies, and it's hard for me to believe he's 100% in lockstep with the lifers. Having said that, he worked his way up right through the system, paid his dues to Ralph, and has never been one to bite the hand that feeds him or really challenge the old ways of doing things. He's more of a "gradual change through our establish systems" than a "tear down and rebuild" kind of guy. But what's he going to do about this? Or can he do anything about this? I wouldn't put it past the Bills and Brandon to claim that he has 100% control of team operations, and that Littman & Overdorf report to him, when in fact all 3 report to Ralph (or no one), and Brandon's control is limited to things the public can see. Even if the Bills' company line is accurate, there's still limits on Brandon's power. My company's CEO couldn't just up and fire our CFO without the board's approval. In this case, Ralph is the board, and I think it's pretty safe to assume that 1.) Brandon probably won't ask Ralph for approval to fire Littman or Overdorf, and 2.) Ralph wouldn't give that approval even if asked. But if Brandon *does* think that the lifers are overreaching, there are other ways to handle things than by firing them. If they truly do report to him, he should be able to rein them in somewhat -- keep their titles the same, but make it clear to them that certain duties are strictly confined to the GM's office. If that happened, we'd never hear about it (obviously), but we could see subtle effects -- small changes in the type of quotes we see from coach/GM, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I fully believe the stories about Littman/Overdorf interfering with football operations. This is hardly the first time these kinds of rumors have come out, and it just makes too much sense. I don't think they interfere 100% of the time, but I do think that 1 or both of them sometimes act as a shadow GM, and both of them definitely rank higher in the organization than Whaley or Marrone. What I don't know is exactly where Russ Brandon stands in all this. There are a wide variety of opinions in this thread, ranging from "Brandon is 100% with Whaley/Marrone" to "Brandon is 100% a lifer, even though he's not as old as the others." Even among the former contingent, there's a wide variety -- a few seem convinced that he's going to make major changes soon, more think that he has no power to change this situation, and probably the most don't claim to know. I.e., "this is a test of Russ Brandon's power." For me, I don't claim to know either Brandon's allegiance or his power within the organization. (If we *did* see major changes, that would pretty much prove that he's against the lifers and has full control of the team, but if we don't, it doesn't tell us anything.) What I tend to think, but am not confident of, is that Brandon is probably somewhere in the middle. He was pretty directly responsible for Whaley getting his current job, and though he claimed that he wasn't the one who hired Marrone, those two have a Syracuse connection that was pointed out at the time of Marrone's hiring. He has shown some tendencies towards newer-type thinking and strategies, and it's hard for me to believe he's 100% in lockstep with the lifers. Having said that, he worked his way up right through the system, paid his dues to Ralph, and has never been one to bite the hand that feeds him or really challenge the old ways of doing things. He's more of a "gradual change through our establish systems" than a "tear down and rebuild" kind of guy. But what's he going to do about this? Or can he do anything about this? I wouldn't put it past the Bills and Brandon to claim that he has 100% control of team operations, and that Littman & Overdorf report to him, when in fact all 3 report to Ralph (or no one), and Brandon's control is limited to things the public can see. Even if the Bills' company line is accurate, there's still limits on Brandon's power. My company's CEO couldn't just up and fire our CFO without the board's approval. In this case, Ralph is the board, and I think it's pretty safe to assume that 1.) Brandon probably won't ask Ralph for approval to fire Littman or Overdorf, and 2.) Ralph wouldn't give that approval even if asked. But if Brandon *does* think that the lifers are overreaching, there are other ways to handle things than by firing them. If they truly do report to him, he should be able to rein them in somewhat -- keep their titles the same, but make it clear to them that certain duties are strictly confined to the GM's office. If that happened, we'd never hear about it (obviously), but we could see subtle effects -- small changes in the type of quotes we see from coach/GM, for example. One thing I feel pretty confident saying, based on what I've been told, is that Marrone was Whaley's call (partially Nix as well)...Brandon did put his 2 cents in--though the final call was Nix/Whaley's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXBILLSFAN Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I fully believe the stories about Littman/Overdorf interfering with football operations. This is hardly the first time these kinds of rumors have come out, and it just makes too much sense. I don't think they interfere 100% of the time, but I do think that 1 or both of them sometimes act as a shadow GM, and both of them definitely rank higher in the organization than Whaley or Marrone. What I don't know is exactly where Russ Brandon stands in all this. There are a wide variety of opinions in this thread, ranging from "Brandon is 100% with Whaley/Marrone" to "Brandon is 100% a lifer, even though he's not as old as the others." Even among the former contingent, there's a wide variety -- a few seem convinced that he's going to make major changes soon, more think that he has no power to change this situation, and probably the most don't claim to know. I.e., "this is a test of Russ Brandon's power." For me, I don't claim to know either Brandon's allegiance or his power within the organization. (If we *did* see major changes, that would pretty much prove that he's against the lifers and has full control of the team, but if we don't, it doesn't tell us anything.) What I tend to think, but am not confident of, is that Brandon is probably somewhere in the middle. He was pretty directly responsible for Whaley getting his current job, and though he claimed that he wasn't the one who hired Marrone, those two have a Syracuse connection that was pointed out at the time of Marrone's hiring. He has shown some tendencies towards newer-type thinking and strategies, and it's hard for me to believe he's 100% in lockstep with the lifers. Having said that, he worked his way up right through the system, paid his dues to Ralph, and has never been one to bite the hand that feeds him or really challenge the old ways of doing things. He's more of a "gradual change through our establish systems" than a "tear down and rebuild" kind of guy. But what's he going to do about this? Or can he do anything about this? I wouldn't put it past the Bills and Brandon to claim that he has 100% control of team operations, and that Littman & Overdorf report to him, when in fact all 3 report to Ralph (or no one), and Brandon's control is limited to things the public can see. Even if the Bills' company line is accurate, there's still limits on Brandon's power. My company's CEO couldn't just up and fire our CFO without the board's approval. In this case, Ralph is the board, and I think it's pretty safe to assume that 1.) Brandon probably won't ask Ralph for approval to fire Littman or Overdorf, and 2.) Ralph wouldn't give that approval even if asked. But if Brandon *does* think that the lifers are overreaching, there are other ways to handle things than by firing them. If they truly do report to him, he should be able to rein them in somewhat -- keep their titles the same, but make it clear to them that certain duties are strictly confined to the GM's office. If that happened, we'd never hear about it (obviously), but we could see subtle effects -- small changes in the type of quotes we see from coach/GM, for example. You raise a good point on the limited powers of a CEO and the relationship to a traditional Board (in this case, Ralph). The CFO is somewhat independent in a traditional corporation and does wield additional powers / decision rights that are separate from the CEO, in an audit, legal, GAAP, SEC etc type of way. So, I can understand that Brandon couldn't up and fire Littman without cause and consent of Board (Ralph), however, Overdorf is an entirely different animal and should be under direct control/management of Brandon (or Whaley). It is troubling that there remains the possibility that our 94-year old owner is still f***ing with the operational aspects of this team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I heard them touch on it on Monday or Tuesday... they breezed over it and said 1) they didn't think fans cared what went on behind the scenes and only cared about what happened on the field, 2) they didn't think it was really "news", and 3)they couldn't think of enough Sabres analogies to make it a worthwhile part of their show. OK, I added that last part myself. You may have added that last part...but you hit the nail squarely on the head... I mean...I like the Sabres too...but good grief... Fans don't care about what goes on behind the scenes? Bills fans? Seriously? They have to be kidding with that...The more rabid the fan base the more concern with what is going on from the Owner down...And if nothing else this is a pretty rabid fan base...They know better than to make a dumb statement like that...They have fielded several calls about when the analytics department was going to be up and running, yet they don't think Bills fans would care about a potentially HUGE story like this? That just seems strange to me...If anything make your calls and come out with all the info gathered, even if it amounts to nothing...Just do your due diligence...Get Warrow or another news agency on the line to see if they've heard anything like this...It's a potentially big story...Even if the story is that it's completely false and Graham made up the whole thing...I mean...The story said they wanted to fire the trainer that has been there forever on a team that has had (at times) massive injury problems...That's a decent size story right there...Who knows...Maybe I'm wrong... Then again...It's a week before the hockey trade deadline so I would hate for them to take away from the collective 7-8 hours per day of that thrilling conversation...Should the Sabres trade Miller for less than a 2nd round pick? The anxiety of the hockey trade deadline is keeping me up at night... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I heard them touch on it on Monday or Tuesday... they breezed over it and said 1) they didn't think fans cared what went on behind the scenes and only cared about what happened on the field, 2) they didn't think it was really "news", and 3)they couldn't think of enough Sabres analogies to make it a worthwhile part of their show. OK, I added that last part myself. It's most certainly not news to people who cover the team. They are right, most fans don't really want to talk about it. Most fans also already know that the team isn't committed to winning and have accepted it. The hope is that they will win in spite of it because they did it before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 the other show on 1270 (who doesnt have a business agreement with the Bills) had no trouble talking about this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cash Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 You raise a good point on the limited powers of a CEO and the relationship to a traditional Board (in this case, Ralph). The CFO is somewhat independent in a traditional corporation and does wield additional powers / decision rights that are separate from the CEO, in an audit, legal, GAAP, SEC etc type of way. So, I can understand that Brandon couldn't up and fire Littman without cause and consent of Board (Ralph), however, Overdorf is an entirely different animal and should be under direct control/management of Brandon (or Whaley). It is troubling that there remains the possibility that our 94-year old owner is still f***ing with the operational aspects of this team. Maybe, maybe not. I do agree in the abstract that a team's capologist/contract negotiator (which is the public face of Overdorf's job) *should* be reporting to the GM or at least defer to the GM on football-related matters. But Overdorf is a long-standing member of Ralph's inner circle, and his position with the Bills is probably comparable with Chief Scientific Officer (CSO) at a Biotech company (or whomever's in charge of the research/pipeline - titles vary by company). And I don't think a hypothetical Biotech CEO could or at least would fire her CSO without the board's approval, especially one who's been with the company for a very long run of sustained profit. And Overdorf has certainly been around for a very long run of sustained profit. I don't think Brandon's really in a position to fire Overdorf, but my hope is that he does have real authority over the dorf. And my second hope is that he's willing and able to use that authority to reign Overdorf in. It's equally plausible to me that he's on board with Overdorf's cost-saving measures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 You may have added that last part...but you hit the nail squarely on the head... I mean...I like the Sabres too...but good grief... Fans don't care about what goes on behind the scenes? Bills fans? Seriously? They have to be kidding with that...The more rabid the fan base the more concern with what is going on from the Owner down...And if nothing else this is a pretty rabid fan base...They know better than to make a dumb statement like that...They have fielded several calls about when the analytics department was going to be up and running, yet they don't think Bills fans would care about a potentially HUGE story like this? That just seems strange to me...If anything make your calls and come out with all the info gathered, even if it amounts to nothing...Just do your due diligence...Get Warrow or another news agency on the line to see if they've heard anything like this...It's a potentially big story...Even if the story is that it's completely false and Graham made up the whole thing...I mean...The story said they wanted to fire the trainer that has been there forever on a team that has had (at times) massive injury problems...That's a decent size story right there...Who knows...Maybe I'm wrong... Then again...It's a week before the hockey trade deadline so I would hate for them to take away from the collective 7-8 hours per day of that thrilling conversation...Should the Sabres trade Miller for less than a 2nd round pick? The anxiety of the hockey trade deadline is keeping me up at night... At least 7-8 hours/day. John Murphy is our only hope for real Bills talk on WGR, currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Maybe, maybe not. I do agree in the abstract that a team's capologist/contract negotiator (which is the public face of Overdorf's job) *should* be reporting to the GM or at least defer to the GM on football-related matters. But Overdorf is a long-standing member of Ralph's inner circle, and his position with the Bills is probably comparable with Chief Scientific Officer (CSO) at a Biotech company (or whomever's in charge of the research/pipeline - titles vary by company). And I don't think a hypothetical Biotech CEO could or at least would fire her CSO without the board's approval, especially one who's been with the company for a very long run of sustained profit. And Overdorf has certainly been around for a very long run of sustained profit. I don't think Brandon's really in a position to fire Overdorf, but my hope is that he does have real authority over the dorf. And my second hope is that he's willing and able to use that authority to reign Overdorf in. It's equally plausible to me that he's on board with Overdorf's cost-saving measures. But it's even worse than that. Remember the report that started all of this: Marrone and Whaley don't even feel empowered to replace the training staff, for God's sake. I get the CEO/CFO analogy and it's a good one, but their exhasperation has to do with not even being able to fire a trainer. What kind of NFL team works that way? I think Marrone (and possibly Whaley) feels that he was lied to when he took the job, and is starting to have some remorse and panic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 But it's even worse than that. Remember the report that started all of this: Marrone and Whaley don't even feel empowered to replace the training staff, for God's sake. I get the CEO/CFO analogy and it's a good one, but their exhasperation has to do with not even being able to fire a trainer. What kind of NFL team works that way? I think Marrone (and possibly Whaley) feels that he was lied to when he took the job, and is starting to have some remorse and panic... Who are the going to replace them with at this point? Miami's head trainer got fired, but that's just one guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Who are the going to replace them with at this point? Miami's head trainer got fired, but that's just one guy. That's a straw man argument. The issue is their frustration - we don't know when they advocated replacing them, it could've been back in January. And in any event, they (Marrone & Co.) obviously feel that they have other options that they're being prevented from pursuing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 That's a straw man argument. The issue is their frustration - we don't know when they advocated replacing them, it could've been back in January. And in any event, they (Marrone & Co.) obviously feel that they have other options that they're being prevented from pursuing. It wasn't any kind of argument. Just a question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 It wasn't any kind of argument. Just a question. Apologies. I have to believe that the market for trainers is not nearly as restricted or competitive as it is for coaches. There must be lots of guys out there with new and unique (i.e., MODERN) approaches to training athletes, who would relish the opportunity to work for an NFL club. Lots of them probably work for colleges or for private training services. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cash Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 But it's even worse than that. Remember the report that started all of this: Marrone and Whaley don't even feel empowered to replace the training staff, for God's sake. I get the CEO/CFO analogy and it's a good one, but their exhasperation has to do with not even being able to fire a trainer. What kind of NFL team works that way? I think Marrone (and possibly Whaley) feels that he was lied to when he took the job, and is starting to have some remorse and panic... I tend to agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Big cat certainly questions bills decisions and isn't a blind supporter- even if I don't always agree with his takes. Here all he is saying is that we have Tim's story which given Tim's lengthy history possibly isn't the full story and floating other ideas. That you condemn him as blindly supporting the front office I think says more about your eagerness for a story confirming your beliefs (hopes?) than it does about cats feelings towards the front office. I'm doubting he has any warm and fuzzy feelings towards littman/overdorf, yet is willing to question a story that hits them hard. Thank you. Evidently one must believe that the FO is entrenched in a doomsday scenario of butting egos or else is a pollyanna franchise shill. As with everything, surely the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cash Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Thank you. Evidently one must believe that the FO is entrenched in a doomsday scenario of butting egos or else is a pollyanna franchise shill. As with everything, surely the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Everything? What about the debate in the 16th century about whether the Earth revolved around the Sun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Everything? What about the debate in the 16th century about whether the Earth revolved around the Sun? Air tight analogy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts