Marquise Goodwin vs T.J. Graham - Fan Poll

[Maury Ballstein]

Tj graham has improved this year FTR

 

 

Put me in the tj camp. Newer isn't better just because it's new.

[Buftex]

First, who said the Bills have to choose one or the other? Both guys are on the squad, both guys will get chances.

 

Goodwin has obviously had some big plays earlier in his career that Graham has, but Graham has shown signs of life. Staying healthy is an assett too...I believe, the Bengals game is the only game Goodwin has played, where he hasn't gotten hurt. It seems like there are some here who have been chomping at the bit to declare TJ a bust because he messed up their mock drafts in 2012 Everyone comes to the team with different skills...some guys need more time than others. There are so many factors, out of their control that impact their performance, inept QB being a part of that.

Edited October 31, 2013 by Buftex

[RyanC883]

I can't believe anyone in their right mind would vote for TJ Graham. I mean, the TD vs. Cincinnati and the insane catch he made against New Orleans last week are two better plays than TJ Graham's ever made. They do not have room for two little speedsters and I think Goodwin has already shown that his upside greatly exceeds Graham's. If I were in charge, my top 4 WR's on the Bills would be SJ, Woods, Easley and Goodwin. I still believe Easley will get snaps by the end of the year and show that he belongs. Why he hasn't already is beyond me. He's our best ST gunner since Tasker, he had 100 yards receiving on 7 catches from Jeff Tuel in ONE QUARTER in the preseason and everyone forgets that in 2011, he won the #2 WR job outright in the preseason before he got the heart thing. Not to mention, he's fast, he's strong and he is the absolute prototypical size for a WR. More so than anyone on our roster by a longshot. It remains a mystery why he doesn't get snaps.

 

mystery to me as well. Also, if Tuel plays this week, they need to put Easley in as there is chemistry between him and Tuel.

[kota]

Goodwin is better than Graham. He's faster and I saw him make some nice catches last week with his hands and not trap catching them like TJ.

 

Easley should be starting.

 

I fear that the Bills value him to much on ST's to put him on offense. If that is the case the entire coaching staff should be fired.

[Wraith]

kick returns are not playing WR. And a long catch in prevent? Wow.

You are aware that the prevent defense is specifically design to prevent long catches, right?

[Mark Vader]

I voted for Graham, mostly because of experience and because Goodwin had missed a lot of time because of his injury.

 

Graham got off to a slow start, but I think he is getting better.

 

Goodwin has been a pleasant surprise, as I thought he would just be a deep threat receiver. He made some good catches against the Saints and he looks like he runs his patterns very well.

 

I don't think we can fully know the total potential of these two players because we have had inconsistent QB play.

 

Let's see how the second half of the season goes.

[simpleman]

I want to know who is voting Goodwin so I can start looking at their posts more critically or just ignore them. This is ridiculous ...The ineptness of fans.

 

Why might someone think Goodwin is better than Graham?

 

In 23 games Graham has scored exactly one TD. .04 per game

In only 4 games Goodwin has one TD .25 per game

 

In 8 games Graham has 6 first downs .75 per game

In 4 games(half as many) Goodwin has 5 first downs 1.25 per game

 

Graham has caught 50% of his targeted throws this year

Goodwin has caught 66 % of his targeted throws this year

 

Graham has an average of 13.9 ypc

Goodwin has an average of 17.8 ypc

 

Yes, Goodwin has a fumble and Graham does not. The only stat that Graham beats Goodwin on.

 

Goodwin also is active in the return game as well as being a WR.

 

Many of us perceive Goodwin as having better hands than Graham. We perceive Goodwin as faster in game situations. Many of us perceive Goodwin as being more physical a player. Many perceive that Goodwin is a better blocker than Graham. Many of us perceive that Goodwin has a higher upside and ceiling than Graham. It seems Goodwin beats his coverage more often than Graham, but I could be wrong. I have no stats or proof of any of that.

 

Since you think those that prefer Goodwin to Graham to be extremely inept students of the game, why you think Graham is so superior to Goodwin, in quantitative terms?

Edited October 31, 2013 by simpleman

[MDH]

And a long catch in prevent? Wow.

 

 

I'm not sure why you're jumping on people who like what they've seen from Goodwin thus far. The one thing he has shown is that his hands are much better than TJ's. Other than that, you're right, neither has really shown that much. But if I have to choose between two guys who haven't shown that much I'll choose the guy who's had 2 games and shown me he has great speed and good hands vs. the guy who has had 23 and shown me he just has speed.

 

The bottom line is that both are young WRs and who knows how they'll end up long term but your attitude towards people voting for Goodwin is a bit extreme.

[boyst]

You are aware that the prevent defense is specifically design to prevent long catches, right?

speed is designed to kill prevent defenses. It isn't that he just made a great play. Its that cinci called a horrible defense

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure why you're jumping on people who like what they've seen from Goodwin thus far. The one thing he has shown is that his hands are much better than TJ's. Other than that, you're right, neither has really shown that much. But if I have to choose between two guys who haven't shown that much I'll choose the guy who's had 2 games and shown me he has great speed and good hands vs. the guy who has had 23 and shown me he just has speed.

 

The bottom line is that both are young WRs and who knows how they'll end up long term but your attitude towards people voting for Goodwin is a bit extreme.

not jumping on anyone. I would pull the other quote but it is hard to do on a cell

 

Anyway. Graham has had QB's that cannot throw more then 20 yards nearly his entire career. He has shown a willingness to go in the middle and block on runs. They're both an off the bench WR/package player. They measure differently, as well. If you were to add the two (or more, cannot remember) plays that were negated by penalty then Graham would have better stats. Because we are a running team I will take the guy who can contribute to that with only a little bit of falloff from the hands.

 

I remain firm that Graham has not been fairly received by the fan base since his arrival. I've said enough of my opinion on the matter and cannot pull up stats or film at this time... so I am finishing this thread for ya'll to continue.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

I want to know who is voting Goodwin so I can start looking at their posts more critically or just ignore them. This is ridiculous.

 

The ineptness of fans. Or is it the psychology of man? That everyone wants the bird in the bush and the next great thing like they know something. Its bad enough Easley gets so much attention and cries for WR but that is somewhat warranted. Goodwin fandom is not

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/about/pff-signature-stats/#DropRate

Take a look at the table labeled Drop Rate

 

TJ Graham had the second-highest drop rate in the entire NFL last season. With 31 catches and 7 drops, he missed out on about 18.4% of catchable passes. Greater than 1/6 of the time the quarterback put the ball there for Graham, he could not catch the thing. So far this season Graham has dropped at a rate of 12.5% (2 drops, 14 catches, 16 catchable balls). The 10th worst reciever in the NFL last season was just one percent higher at 13.5%. This is a WR who so far ranks near the bottom of the league in terms of simply catching passes which are there to be caught.

 

This happens because despite playing WR his whole life, Graham still has a nasty habit of basket-catching. I know from memory that at least one of Graham's two drops this year was for exactly this reason.

 

If you watch Goodwin closely in his limited exposure in preseason and so far in the real games, you'll notice that (despite not playing WR much in college) he consistently catches the football with his hands UP.

 

On top of this Graham is prone to mental lapses. We all know he cost us an opportunity to beat New England last season with poor route running resulting in an INT. There were also times in the first half of last season where Graham didn't know where to line up on the field. There's also the kick return this season which he mis-played in the endzone, still ran out for an unknown reason, and was smothered inside the 10 yard line. We both know kick returning doesn't matter, but it's another example of how Graham's head falls out of the game making him prone to !@#$ing up.

 

At the same time I've been pleasantly surprised by Graham's play overall this year. I think he put a ton of work in over the offseason to improve his blocking. He came up huge as a reciever against Cincinnati and played an outstanding football game. He made a huge play for Thad in the 1st quarter at Miami and showed ability to get yards after catch. He's cut the drop rate some, and though it's not good enough imo because it still ranks close to the league's worst, it's a good start, it's progress.

 

At the same time Goodwin is already a better blocker, because he's tougher despite being smaller. He's already a significantly better pass-catcher. Graham's best trait, his straight-line speed, is lesser than that of Goodwin. We haven't seen enough of him to say this with any certainty but I am not anticipating the same rookie mistakes (aka bonehead plays) that Graham has toiled with.

 

Call me inept, but I see certain things that Goodwin does better than TJ Graham, and I don't see anything Graham does better than Goodwin to even the scales.

 

The big question I have about Goodwin is whether his body can hold up; if it can I'm confident he will be the smarter, hungrier, more consistent football player, despite his size.

 

I'm sure it doesn't come off this way but I wholeheartedly root for TJ Graham every time he steps on the field. The guy frustrates me though, with issues that this year's crop of rookies do not seem to suffer from. I'm glad he's on our team because I believe the long-term plan is to run a lot of run-n-shoot type stuff when EJ is ready for it, and Graham is good enough as a deep threat that he'll be able to pull safeties away from our playmakers in the slot.

[BADOLBILZ]

+1 speed is a wash they are both world class the edge in blocking gives to Goodwin. Think he's just flat out a better football player.

 

I would agree that Goodwin is the better football player, but Graham pretty much stunk as a WR at NC State. He lost like 10 fumbles in his career there. Goodwin on the other hand, never really produced anything downfield at Texas. His highlight reel is almost completely short passes and shuffle passes behind the LOS that he busted long. They are both projects. Goodwin is the better natural football player but Graham is more durable. In the end, it could end up being a typical Bills situation where neither is ever actually a complete football player and neither makes it. Before we get that far though it would be nice to see any kind of a real NFL QB throwing the ball. A quality one can elevate the game of otherwise mediocre receivers. The Bills badly need a QB who doesn't have to be graded on some kind of handicap based curve. Hopefully that is EJ Manuel next season.

[T master]

If the coaching staff could find a way to use both of them say like Gailey did last year in a 5 WR set & have those guys as go routes i would be a bigger fan of both .

 

But i didn't get the pick of TJ last year it didn't make a lot of sense with the other players that were sitting there at the time it came our turn to pick .

[metzelaars_lives]

You are aware that the prevent defense is specifically design to prevent long catches, right?

Exactly. He is usually a pretty good poster too, but that one shocked me.

[purple haze]

Our head coach and OC like TJ better obviously but I can't understand why they would burn a fairly high pick on a guy like Goodwin if they aren't going to use him.

 

The NFL has pretty much killed the kickoff return with most kicks being out of the endzone, and we have Leodis returning kicks, so Goodwin's impact is minimal on special teams.

 

Woods and Stevie are locks, and we don't run as many 4 receiver sets as we did last year, so Goodwin pretty much watches the games on the sideline which drives me crazy because I think he's twice the player Graham is. He's AT LEAST just as good, with more upside and better ball skills. TJ is a great kid, teammate, interview etc., but has been a slow learner (his route error cost us a game last year), and although he gets pretty good separation sometimes, if the pass isn't perfect he doesn't have the aggressiveness or timing to adjust properly like a good NFL receiver needs to.

 

I'm sick of this topic because it frustrates me. Another reason I think hiring Hackett was a poorly thought out, homer call. If we could have found an OC on par with the kind guy Pettine is, you would see Goodwin involved and effective most every week (and CJ healthy and used properly the way Chan did it) Drafting and scouting offensive skill talent is great but if you can't use them properly then stick with drafting defense and O linemen.

 

Graham must being showing well in the practice setting. So there's that. Graham is a good blocker as well. I don't understand why fans think they know more than the people who are with the players everyday. Goodwin is involved. Bills are deep at WR. We'll be better when our QB's are better. Graham is fine. He's flashing just like Goodwin. It's good both are on the team.

 

https://www.profootb...stats/#DropRate

Take a look at the table labeled Drop Rate

 

TJ Graham had the second-highest drop rate in the entire NFL last season. With 31 catches and 7 drops, he missed out on about 18.4% of catchable passes. Greater than 1/6 of the time the quarterback put the ball there for Graham, he could not catch the thing. So far this season Graham has dropped at a rate of 12.5% (2 drops, 14 catches, 16 catchable balls). The 10th worst reciever in the NFL last season was just one percent higher at 13.5%. This is a WR who so far ranks near the bottom of the league in terms of simply catching passes which are there to be caught.

 

This happens because despite playing WR his whole life, Graham still has a nasty habit of basket-catching. I know from memory that at least one of Graham's two drops this year was for exactly this reason.

 

If you watch Goodwin closely in his limited exposure in preseason and so far in the real games, you'll notice that (despite not playing WR much in college) he consistently catches the football with his hands UP.

 

On top of this Graham is prone to mental lapses. We all know he cost us an opportunity to beat New England last season with poor route running resulting in an INT. There were also times in the first half of last season where Graham didn't know where to line up on the field. There's also the kick return this season which he mis-played in the endzone, still ran out for an unknown reason, and was smothered inside the 10 yard line. We both know kick returning doesn't matter, but it's another example of how Graham's head falls out of the game making him prone to !@#$ing up.

 

At the same time I've been pleasantly surprised by Graham's play overall this year. I think he put a ton of work in over the offseason to improve his blocking. He came up huge as a reciever against Cincinnati and played an outstanding football game. He made a huge play for Thad in the 1st quarter at Miami and showed ability to get yards after catch. He's cut the drop rate some, and though it's not good enough imo because it still ranks close to the league's worst, it's a good start, it's progress.

 

At the same time Goodwin is already a better blocker, because he's tougher despite being smaller. He's already a significantly better pass-catcher. Graham's best trait, his straight-line speed, is lesser than that of Goodwin. We haven't seen enough of him to say this with any certainty but I am not anticipating the same rookie mistakes (aka bonehead plays) that Graham has toiled with.

 

Call me inept, but I see certain things that Goodwin does better than TJ Graham, and I don't see anything Graham does better than Goodwin to even the scales.

 

The big question I have about Goodwin is whether his body can hold up; if it can I'm confident he will be the smarter, hungrier, more consistent football player, despite his size.

 

I'm sure it doesn't come off this way but I wholeheartedly root for TJ Graham every time he steps on the field. The guy frustrates me though, with issues that this year's crop of rookies do not seem to suffer from. I'm glad he's on our team because I believe the long-term plan is to run a lot of run-n-shoot type stuff when EJ is ready for it, and Graham is good enough as a deep threat that he'll be able to pull safeties away from our playmakers in the slot.

 

Most of your post details LAST SEASON. That has no value to this season. We haven't seen Graham drop passes this season the way he did last season.. He's running much better routes and getting open (btw, he got open a lot last year too). He's making plays w/Thad in at QB, who he has a good chemistry with.

[CardinalScotts]

Graham better hands as fast if not faster done more in less time - end of story

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

 

 

Graham must being showing well in the practice setting. So there's that. Graham is a good blocker as well. I don't understand why fans think they know more than the people who are with the players everyday. Goodwin is involved. Bills are deep at WR. We'll be better when our QB's are better. Graham is fine. He's flashing just like Goodwin. It's good both are on the team.

 

 

 

Most of your post details LAST SEASON. That has no value to this season. We haven't seen Graham drop passes this season the way he did last season.. He's running much better routes and getting open (btw, he got open a lot last year too). He's making plays w/Thad in at QB, who he has a good chemistry with.

 

I agree he looks a lot better than he did last year and has made a few plays for us. Hopefully his escalation continues and we can have one heck of a WR group.

[3rdand12]

Well.

i dont think it's a fair point to judge.

Neither of these players qualify. Both are package players and until we have an O line that can protect the pocket long enough....

 

Heck Stevie is working the slot a bit more.

So l suggest that Wood is the outside REC. and we dont have THAT player yet.

 

Also i am thinking Graham and Goodwin wil continue to improve with exp and Reps.

Goodwin has a higher ceiling. in my humble opinion.

I expect to keep both them around as Bills o line makes improvements and we settle in at QB with EJ.

It is all about the WR/QB relationship.

When you guys discuss this keep in mind we have had NO consistent play at either postion

Due to injuries.

Cannot compute Cannot compute ....We cant evaluate receivers on data available. Its just not good analytics fellas

Edited October 31, 2013 by 3rdand12

[peterpan]

Uhhh dude, he had two electric kick returns in one game in the preseason. He caught a game-tying last minute TD against the Bengals where he toasted the guy. He made an insane catch last week against New Orleans. And he's barely even been on the field for us. You don't think it's warranted to be more excited for Marquise Goodwin than TJ Graham? What in the world has TJ Graham shown to make anyone think he's even worthy of being on an NFL roster? You are in the vast minority here my friend.

 

Said it perfectly. In Goodwins short career, he has more memorable and stellar plays than Graham has in his year and a half.

 

Its not close. Goodwin is the football player. Goodwin deserves the snaps.

 

Graham better hands as fast if not faster done more in less time - end of story

 

I think you meant Goodwin, not graham

 

jboyst - sorry man, but what games are you watching? Graham gets no separation. He has below average hands. He doesn't draw attention from anyone.

 

Goodwin has torched DBs deep a number of times. A few were completed others where bad throws - but Graham, despite being almost as fast, doesn't beat people deep as often. My guess is his routes are not as good. Graham doesn't get the separation Goodwin does. This is very evident to me even with Goodwin's limited playing time.

 

Plus - that catch last week was nuts. He got up to like 8' and plucked it out of the air. I've never seen Graham do anything like that.

[John from Riverside]

My big thing is Goodwin actually blocks.....where Graham is absolutely pitiful.....which to me makes him more valuable cuz he can do everything Graham can do

[MDH]

The Bills badly need a QB who doesn't have to be graded on some kind of handicap based curve.

 

I've been dreaming of this for 17 years.