DB Crisis

[Buffalo Beeeews]

This is something that has always bothered me about this franchise. Our secondary is depleted and instead of signing a FA or two, we'll just sit back and let a QB who just won a SB carve us up on Sunday afternoon. This is why this franchise is in the shape that its in! I understand Marrone having faith in the backups, but come on, he is seriously going to start Justin Rogers, who got torched for over 200 yds, against a Ravens receiving corp that's far better than the Jets receivers. And Aaron Williams?! Wasn't the reason he was moved to Safety because he can't cover ANYBODY?!?!

[Bangarang]

Please feel free to list some of those FA options that would improve our secondary.

 

Gilmore should be back in a week or 2 and with him and Leodis, our secondary all of a sudden isn't a major problem.

Edited September 25, 2013 by Bangarang

[HeHateMe]

At this point, I don't think you can just plug and play a guy from off the street into the lineup and expect better than the backups sadly.

 

What bothers me more is coming into this season, it was widely known there was no depth at that position and any injuries would really screw the team over.. here we are.

 

I understand not making a huge splash in FA every off season but pick up a Vet or 2 to give yourself a shot at depth and at least be better prepared for these situations which happen EVERY YEAR...

[The Big Cat]

Please feel free to list some of those FA options that would improve our secondary.

 

STEP 3: Profit

 

At this point, I don't think you can just plug and play a guy from off the street into the lineup and expect better than the backups sadly.

 

What bothers me more is coming into this season, it was widely known there was no depth at that position and any injuries would really screw the team over.. here we are.

 

I understand not making a huge splash in FA every off season but pick up a Vet or 2 to give yourself a shot at depth and at least be better prepared for these situations which happen EVERY YEAR...

 

Right now our team is weathering injuries at:

 

Safety

Cornerback

Defensive Line

Wide Receiver

Offensive Line

 

WRT CB: there top TWO receivers are out. Are they expected to carry a third CB who's just as effective?

 

How many positions do they need to have second and third stringers as good as our starters?

[Buffalo Beeeews]

Please feel free to list some of those FA options that would improve our secondary.

 

Gilmore should be back in a week or 2 and with him and Leodis, our secondary all of a sudden isn't a major problem.

 

Understood. But any CB that gives up 200 yds in a game don't deserve to be in the league at all, that's ridiculous. With all the injuries, any other team woulda brought someone in at least for a workout...ANYBODY!

[nucci]

Understand what you're saying but that is what the practice squad is for.

[BILLS 4 EVER]

From this recent list, here's the one's who are FAR better than Justin "torch my ass" Rogers.

 

Bryan Scott - knows the system, can play safety if Williams needs to move over.

 

Safety

Kerry Rhodes

Abram Elam

Charlie Peprah

Amari Spievey (CB)

Chris Hope

Akwasi Owusu-Ansah (CB)

Cornerback

Ronald Bartell

Sheldon Brown

Terrence McGee (KR)

Jason Allen

Cedric Griffin

Nate Clements (FS)

Marcus Trufant

Will Allen

Patrick Lee

Kennard Cox

Brian Witherspoon

Ras-I Dowling

http://thesidelineview.com/columns/caplans-nfl-corner/best-available-nfl-free-agents-defense

[Storm Front]

Half those guys would be better than TMA Rogers.

[Gerry]

Agreed-some of these guys have the ability and want to play. Is money going to be a factor like it probably was with Scott? Didn't understand letting a guy like that go-flexibility to play LB and safety, knows the defense, good guy in the locker room. Having him around would make it easy to temporarily switch Williams back to CB.

[Cash]

WRT CB: there top TWO receivers are out. Are they expected to carry a third CB who's just as effective?

 

How many positions do they need to have second and third stringers as good as our starters?

Understood. But any CB that gives up 200 yds in a game don't deserve to be in the league at all, that's ridiculous. With all the injuries, any other team woulda brought someone in at least for a workout...ANYBODY!

 

Would anyone here have been upset or disagreed with Marrone if the Bills had decided to bench Rogers during or after his poor game Sunday? (Either pull him after any of the passes he gave up Sunday, or announce that he won't start next week, or say nothing, but line up Burton with the 1s at practice instead of Rogers.) My guess is no. I do tend to agree that signing a guy off the street probably won't help much, and almost definitely won't help in the short term, but I think I would like to see some repercussions to Rogers for his abysmal game. Don't cut him or anything, just sit him down to send a clear message that performance matters. We hear so much rhetoric about competition and every job on the roster being up for grabs, but if a guy can get toasted that bad and keep his job, is there really any competition?

 

Lastly, a few observations on our CB situation:

 

-The coaching staff seems to view outside CB and slot/nickel CB as different positions.

-Stephon Gilmore is our #1 outside CB. Leodis McKelvin is our #2 outside CB. Both are starters.

-Justin Rogers is our #3 outside CB, and 2nd-string. If either starter is hurt, Rogers steps into the starting lineup.

-Nickell Robey is our #1 slot CB (he played nickel CB over Ron Brooks in week 1 when both were healthy), but will never play on the outside unless forced to via injury. He did play some outside last week, I believe.

-Ron Brooks is our #2 slot CB (got injured playing dime DB, I think) and #4 outside CB. This is our 3rd-string outside CB -- it takes 2 injuries to get him in the lineup.

-Brandon Burton is our #5 outside CB, and so far has been this coaching staff's answer to Tarvaris Jackson. I would like to see him take the field at some point, especially since we have THREE injured CBs right now.

-Johnny Adams is also on the team.

 

Overall, I can't imagine the coaching staff is happy with the depth at CB. I won't pretend that losing both of your top 2 corners is normal or expected, but a team should be able to lose 1 for at least part of a game without collapsing. McKelvin's injury last week didn't really affect us at all, because the Jets were going after Rogers on almost every throw. We don't need 2nd and 3rd stringers to necessarily be as good as the starters, but your top reserve at most positions needs to at least be a competent NFL player. Rogers was not a competent NFL player last week, and it showed. I know we have a ton of injuries at CB, but just throwing up your hands and saying we had no chance is oversimplifying things. If Gilmore and Brooks were both healthy, but McKelvin still got hurt, guess who's playing the rest of the game Sunday? Justin Rogers, that's who. It only takes 1 injury to get a terrible player on the field; that's a problem. If Rogers was in the "Brandon Burton" position and forced into action, I think at that point we throw up our hands and say that we had no chance due to injuries. But when the first guy off the bench is the one that cost us the game, then there needs to be some pressure on the team to get a better top reserve.

[Buffalo Beeeews]

 

 

 

Would anyone here have been upset or disagreed with Marrone if the Bills had decided to bench Rogers during or after his poor game Sunday? (Either pull him after any of the passes he gave up Sunday, or announce that he won't start next week, or say nothing, but line up Burton with the 1s at practice instead of Rogers.) My guess is no. I do tend to agree that signing a guy off the street probably won't help much, and almost definitely won't help in the short term, but I think I would like to see some repercussions to Rogers for his abysmal game. Don't cut him or anything, just sit him down to send a clear message that performance matters. We hear so much rhetoric about competition and every job on the roster being up for grabs, but if a guy can get toasted that bad and keep his job, is there really any competition?

 

Lastly, a few observations on our CB situation:

 

-The coaching staff seems to view outside CB and slot/nickel CB as different positions.

-Stephon Gilmore is our #1 outside CB. Leodis McKelvin is our #2 outside CB. Both are starters.

-Justin Rogers is our #3 outside CB, and 2nd-string. If either starter is hurt, Rogers steps into the starting lineup.

-Nickell Robey is our #1 slot CB (he played nickel CB over Ron Brooks in week 1 when both were healthy), but will never play on the outside unless forced to via injury. He did play some outside last week, I believe.

-Ron Brooks is our #2 slot CB (got injured playing dime DB, I think) and #4 outside CB. This is our 3rd-string outside CB -- it takes 2 injuries to get him in the lineup.

-Brandon Burton is our #5 outside CB, and so far has been this coaching staff's answer to Tarvaris Jackson. I would like to see him take the field at some point, especially since we have THREE injured CBs right now.

-Johnny Adams is also on the team.

 

Overall, I can't imagine the coaching staff is happy with the depth at CB. I won't pretend that losing both of your top 2 corners is normal or expected, but a team should be able to lose 1 for at least part of a game without collapsing. McKelvin's injury last week didn't really affect us at all, because the Jets were going after Rogers on almost every throw. We don't need 2nd and 3rd stringers to necessarily be as good as the starters, but your top reserve at most positions needs to at least be a competent NFL player. Rogers was not a competent NFL player last week, and it showed. I know we have a ton of injuries at CB, but just throwing up your hands and saying we had no chance is oversimplifying things. If Gilmore and Brooks were both healthy, but McKelvin still got hurt, guess who's playing the rest of the game Sunday? Justin Rogers, that's who. It only takes 1 injury to get a terrible player on the field; that's a problem. If Rogers was in the "Brandon Burton" position and forced into action, I think at that point we throw up our hands and say that we had no chance due to injuries. But when the first guy off the bench is the one that cost us the game, then there needs to be some pressure on the team to get a better top reserve.

 

...and, we have Jacoby Jones and Torry Smith in town this week. Much better receivers than NYJ can field... :/

[Dean Cain]

The coaching staff knows that they will be targeting Rogers. Perhaps they want to bait Flacco to target him. I'd expect a lot of safety help over the top of Rogers' half of the field.

[The Big Cat]

...and, we have Jacoby Jones and Torry Smith in town this week. Much better receivers than NYJ can field... :/

 

[JPS]

If you put a guy out on an island, give him NO help over the top and get NO pass rush, there's 3 or 4 CBs in the history of the game that would fare well. I'm not defending Rogers, but my guess is they'll back off with the safeties and give the CBs help this week. Of course, this puts pressure on the front 7 to stop the run and pick up the TE, but they just can't leave these corners naked again....and they won't.

[Bags]

At this point, I don't think you can just plug and play a guy from off the street into the lineup and expect better than the backups sadly.

 

What bothers me more is coming into this season, it was widely known there was no depth at that position and any injuries would really screw the team over.. here we are.

 

I understand not making a huge splash in FA every off season but pick up a Vet or 2 to give yourself a shot at depth and at least be better prepared for these situations which happen EVERY YEAR...

 

 

I agree, kobe808lak--The Bills "shoulda, coulda, woulda" signed one or two FA DBs during the off-season to give us some depth in case of injuries. Same holds true for the OG position. And with $20 million+ under the cap, I wonder about this franchise's commitment to trying to build a winner in WNY.

[HeHateMe]

STEP 3: Profit

 

 

 

Right now our team is weathering injuries at:

 

Safety

Cornerback

Defensive Line

Wide Receiver

Offensive Line

 

WRT CB: there top TWO receivers are out. Are they expected to carry a third CB who's just as effective?

 

How many positions do they need to have second and third stringers as good as our starters?

 

As good as the starters, probably not likely.. How about NFL caliber at least? You can't say that there wasn't a CB better than Rogers out there especially before the season..

[Meatloaf Sandwich]

Why post this if you have no list of players who are in football shape and capable of learning the defense in less then a weeks time.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

If you put a guy out on an island, give him NO help over the top and get NO pass rush, there's 3 or 4 CBs in the history of the game that would fare well. I'm not defending Rogers, but my guess is they'll back off with the safeties and give the CBs help this week. Of course, this puts pressure on the front 7 to stop the run and pick up the TE, but they just can't leave these corners naked again....and they won't.

 

I concur; they're not going to leave Rogers out alone again.

 

As much as all of us have been ripping Rogers too, he actually had decent coverage on the last bomb to Santonio Holmes (was a beautiful throw), and knocked away another bomb to Hill in the endzone on a really nice play. The guy could be more effective and less of a liability if he had safety help.

[Braedenstearns]

 

 

 

That's going to help. If we get Byrd back ( probably not) we might just have a chance.

Edited September 25, 2013 by Braedenstearns

[Lt. Dan's Revenge]

...and, we have Jacoby Jones and Torry Smith in town this week. Much better receivers than NYJ can field... :/

 

Jacoby Jones is not playing this week, and he is also not a very good receiver. He had one miraculously lucky catch in a January game in Denver last year. Beyond that, he is a great returner and a run of the mill wide receiver.

[BillsVet]

I agree, kobe808lak--The Bills "shoulda, coulda, woulda" signed one or two FA DBs during the off-season to give us some depth in case of injuries. Same holds true for the OG position. And with $20 million+ under the cap, I wonder about this franchise's commitment to trying to build a winner in WNY.

 

Building depth is done when you draft well year after year, which is something the Bills haven't done in a long time. But if you're not drafting well in this era, you can somewhat off-set it with value signings in UFA A good example is a guy like Alan Branch who is playing this season on a reasonable contract.

 

When you don't draft well, particularly in the middle rounds, and aren't willing to make up for that with value signings, it's hard to maintain the sort of depth required to offset injuries. I don't expect Buffalo to spend all their cap dollars every season in a pursuit to establish depth, but it's ridiculous to believe them to not have injuries during the season. If Gilmore goes down, Rogers is still on the field. If Stevie goes down, it means an unproven type gets immediate PT. That's not what I expect from a franchise which tells us everything is supposedly new. It's their M.O. for going on years.

[RyanC883]

Bryan Scott should def be back. He knows the system at a position we are very thin at. Also, he is a good (not great,) but slightly-above average type player at a position were we have few healthy average players.

 

I concur; they're not going to leave Rogers out alone again.

 

As much as all of us have been ripping Rogers too, he actually had decent coverage on the last bomb to Santonio Holmes (was a beautiful throw), and knocked away another bomb to Hill in the endzone on a really nice play. The guy could be more effective and less of a liability if he had safety help.

 

I would bring in Scott to provide this safety help. Plus, Scott is a hard hitter.

[DanInUticaTampa]

 

 

...and, we have Jacoby Jones and Torry Smith in town this week. Much better receivers than NYJ can field... :/

 

Jacoby Jones will be watching from the sideline

[RyanC883]

At this point, I don't think you can just plug and play a guy from off the street into the lineup and expect better than the backups sadly.

 

What bothers me more is coming into this season, it was widely known there was no depth at that position and any injuries would really screw the team over.. here we are.

 

I understand not making a huge splash in FA every off season but pick up a Vet or 2 to give yourself a shot at depth and at least be better prepared for these situations which happen EVERY YEAR...

 

This is my main issue as well. (although I would like to pick up Bryan Scott). We lacked depth at O-line and Secondary, and guess what, we lost to the Jets because of it. Good job front office. Way to screw it up AGAIN!

[BRAWNDO]

Josina Anderson ‏@JosinaAnderson 1h

Sources: CB Antoine Winfield is working out in Houston, Texas. Winfield is considering a return to football for the right situation.

[BaaadThingsMan]

Why haven't we signed a db or two? Are the coaches counting on a rebound game from our current group?

[White Linen]

Why haven't we signed a db or two? Are the coaches counting on a rebound game from our current group?

Why haven't we signed a db or two? Are the coaches counting on a rebound game from our current group?

What two CB's do you wish they would have signed this week to start this Sunday so the coaches don't have to count on a rebound game from our current players? How anyone seriously think this is a viable option is beyond me.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Triple Threat

[NewEra]

I'm one of the biggest critics of our healthy CBs....but there aren't many options available week 4 of the nfl season. If its the offseason.....that's a different story. But it's not the offseason. Luckily for us, the ravens and browns don't have too many WRs we need to worry about. Put our best Healthy CB on smith and give him some safety help. The ravens #2 WR, marlon brown didn't practice today either.

 

 

Ps.....anyone who says an injured WR that got hit over the head with a champagne bottle by a stripper is "coming into town", while he's already hurt, is clueless. Yep, that's you OP.

[RussellDopeland]

Don't worry about this- Russ has it under control. The Bills have a secret weapon up their sleeves: "Analytics". The Analytics Department at One Bills Drive has concluded that there isn't a need to pursue a veteran DB or two. It makes more sense, according to "Analytics" to sign inexperienced nobodies like Johnny Adams and Brandon Burton, and to continue to play the mediocrity that is Justin Rogers. Truth is, "Analytics" was and is a load of crap! If you were to find an "Analytics Department" at the stadium, all you would see upon opening the door is Littman and Overdorf counting Ralph's money. Twenty million under the cap, and we get to see cheap, mediocre players like Colin Brown and Justin Rogers stinking-up the joint every week, and helping cost this team games in the end.

[#34fan]

quote name='BILLS 4 EVER' timestamp='1380136838' post='2922540']

From this recent list, here's the one's who are FAR better than Justin "torch my ass" Rogers.

 

x 150,000

 

 

I was thinking Rogers' nickname could be something like "toast" or "the char-broiled one"

Edited September 26, 2013 by #34fan

[iinii]

Bring back Jauron, at least he drafted a DB every year!

[Chilly]

Jacoby Jones is not playing this week, and he is also not a very good receiver. He had one miraculously lucky catch in a January game in Denver last year. Beyond that, he is a great returner and a run of the mill wide receiver.

 

Maybe we should invite Sweet Pea to Buffalo as a thank you.

 

[RussellDopeland]

Maybe we should invite Sweet Pea to Buffalo as a thank you.

 

 

 

Invite her to Buffalo? I think the Bills should sign her to play guard.

[greenmohawk]

I've seen Justin Rogers play real good, that day he had a bad one. Maybe he was tired from the offense going no huddle three and outs. If EJM could have thrown the ball in bounds and got some first downs then Mr. Rogers wouldn't have gotten burned by the high priced star receiver of the Jets.

[Mango]

 

 

 

Would anyone here have been upset or disagreed with Marrone if the Bills had decided to bench Rogers during or after his poor game Sunday? (Either pull him after any of the passes he gave up Sunday, or announce that he won't start next week, or say nothing, but line up Burton with the 1s at practice instead of Rogers.) My guess is no. I do tend to agree that signing a guy off the street probably won't help much, and almost definitely won't help in the short term, but I think I would like to see some repercussions to Rogers for his abysmal game. Don't cut him or anything, just sit him down to send a clear message that performance matters. We hear so much rhetoric about competition and every job on the roster being up for grabs, but if a guy can get toasted that bad and keep his job, is there really any competition?

 

Lastly, a few observations on our CB situation:

 

-The coaching staff seems to view outside CB and slot/nickel CB as different positions.

-Stephon Gilmore is our #1 outside CB. Leodis McKelvin is our #2 outside CB. Both are starters.

-Justin Rogers is our #3 outside CB, and 2nd-string. If either starter is hurt, Rogers steps into the starting lineup.

-Nickell Robey is our #1 slot CB (he played nickel CB over Ron Brooks in week 1 when both were healthy), but will never play on the outside unless forced to via injury. He did play some outside last week, I believe.

-Ron Brooks is our #2 slot CB (got injured playing dime DB, I think) and #4 outside CB. This is our 3rd-string outside CB -- it takes 2 injuries to get him in the lineup.

-Brandon Burton is our #5 outside CB, and so far has been this coaching staff's answer to Tarvaris Jackson. I would like to see him take the field at some point, especially since we have THREE injured CBs right now.

-Johnny Adams is also on the team.

 

Overall, I can't imagine the coaching staff is happy with the depth at CB. I won't pretend that losing both of your top 2 corners is normal or expected, but a team should be able to lose 1 for at least part of a game without collapsing. McKelvin's injury last week didn't really affect us at all, because the Jets were going after Rogers on almost every throw. We don't need 2nd and 3rd stringers to necessarily be as good as the starters, but your top reserve at most positions needs to at least be a competent NFL player. Rogers was not a competent NFL player last week, and it showed. I know we have a ton of injuries at CB, but just throwing up your hands and saying we had no chance is oversimplifying things. If Gilmore and Brooks were both healthy, but McKelvin still got hurt, guess who's playing the rest of the game Sunday? Justin Rogers, that's who. It only takes 1 injury to get a terrible player on the field; that's a problem. If Rogers was in the "Brandon Burton" position and forced into action, I think at that point we throw up our hands and say that we had no chance due to injuries. But when the first guy off the bench is the one that cost us the game, then there needs to be some pressure on the team to get a better top reserve.

 

It doesn't matter what package the team was running when Brooks got hurt, Mckelvin moved over and Brooks moved to Mckelvins position. Rogers replaced Brooks, then Mckelvin.

 

Rogers was our 4th corner. We are missing our top 3.

[dave mcbride]

...and, we have Jacoby Jones and Torry Smith in town this week. Much better receivers than NYJ can field... :/

A healthy Santonio Holmes - which is what he was last week - is better than any receiver on Baltimore.

[Cash]

It doesn't matter what package the team was running when Brooks got hurt, Mckelvin moved over and Brooks moved to Mckelvins position. Rogers replaced Brooks, then Mckelvin.

 

Rogers was our 4th corner. We are missing our top 3.

 

Nope. Rogers started in week 1, a healthy Brooks came off the bench:

 

http://www.nfl.com/player/justinrogers/2508135/profile

 

http://www.nfl.com/player/ronbrooks/2533332/profile

 

Rogers played 87 of 91 defensive snaps in week 1. Brooks only played 10 defensive snaps before getting hurt. In the regular season, Rogers has always been ahead of Brooks at outside CB. He is our first guy off the bench if either starter gets hurt.

[Erik]

Nope. Rogers started in week 1, a healthy Brooks came off the bench:

 

http://www.nfl.com/p...2508135/profile

 

http://www.nfl.com/p...2533332/profile

 

Rogers played 87 of 91 defensive snaps in week 1. Brooks only played 10 defensive snaps before getting hurt. In the regular season, Rogers has always been ahead of Brooks at outside CB. He is our first guy off the bench if either starter gets hurt.

 

That's not entirely right. Brooks plays exclusively in the slot. Has since college. Rogers is still technically our 4th CB. If Gilmore, McKelvin and Brooks are all healthy then Rogers doesn't see the field unless they play 4 CBs.

 

Anyway who could they sign who would only want to start for 2 weeks? Gilmore and McKelvin should both be back by the Cincy game at the latest.

[Captain Hindsight]

This is my main issue as well. (although I would like to pick up Bryan Scott). We lacked depth at O-line and Secondary, and guess what, we lost to the Jets because of it. Good job front office. Way to screw it up AGAIN!

I'm actually ok with how the FO has handled this. (At least with respect to injuries) One thing I absolutely despised about Dickie J was when a player had a two to three week injury, we signed some street FA that started 4 days later because they didnt trust their depth. (Which IMO was the fault of giving Bobby April too much say on personal and we ended up with 22 starters and 30 STers.)

 

Few teams have the ability to plan for their top 3 CBs getting hurt before week three is over. If McLovin or Gilmore come back our secondary is fine. Rogers is perfectly capable of covering Justin Kerly. Santonio Holmes, not so much. But he made the roster to cover guys like Kerly

[8-8 Forever?]

Please feel free to list some of those FA options that would improve our secondary.

 

Gilmore should be back in a week or 2 and with him and Leodis, our secondary all of a sudden isn't a major problem.

I am really looking forward to week, say 7, when the secondary is back at full strength. Unless a bunch of other defensive players get hurt between now and then ( a distinct possibility ) this defense should be fun to watch, say after the bye week. Unless at 2-6, they have packed it in by then (another distinct possibility ). Oh well, such is the life of a Bills fan . we shall see.