Would Rivers be an option at QB next year?

[BuffalothruMyVeins]

I personally haven't seen much of Rivers, but have heard that he has been underwhelming lately, and I don't mean just this season. If San Diego falls out of it and loses their coach, it would mean a possible change at QB too since (most *ahem*) new regimes bring in their new QB too. Again, I haven't seen much of the guy, so can anyone tell me if he's playing at a level that would make us better?

 

I don't want to just hear from the "OMG he sucks stay away from him" croud, because I'm sure he's at least Fitz's equal. I'm looking for someone who has seen enough of him to say would he be able to give us say 5 years of 3,500 yards per with 25-30 TD's without being a risk to lead league in picks like our boy Fitz. Can he run the quick strike spread offense with screens, that we currently have, and add an element we don't currently have, the ability to make throws consistently outside the numbers and downfield?

Would Rivers be worth bringing in if he were to be on the block for, say, a 2nd rounder? Surely something would have to be done with Fitz' and his starter's contract if they did that, because we couldn't pay 2 starting QB's wages and watch Levitre and Byrd walk out the door. There IS the Nix connection, but not sure if that's enough.

 

Me personally, from what I've seen, he could have the best physical tools any QB under Gailey has ever had since (didn't Gailey OC some for Broncos before he went to Pitt?) Elway maybe? However, I just caught the end of the Chargers/Broncos game, he got sacked on about his own 20, down by a score, with about 12 or 13 seconds left... and yeah sure game was likely over, but he just got up and walked off the field while the clock ticked away... he could have at least tried to get 1 more play off. So that kinda unimpressed me with him, Trent was booted after giving up throwing ball out of bounds or running out of bounds at the end of the first or 2nd game under Gailey, for admitting defeat, so maybe that wouldn't play for Gailey either.

[PromoTheRobot]

http://espn.go.com/n...12/seasontype/2

 

So far Rivers is having a nearly identical season to Fitz statistically. except that he currently leads the NFL in interceptions. Also consider how often starting QBs change teams and have more success with their new team. Hint: Not often. So why do we want him?

 

PTR

Edited November 20, 2012 by PromoTheRobot

[NoSaint]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/quarterbackRating/year/2012/seasontype/2

 

So far Rivers is having a nearly equal season to Fitz statistically. except that he currently leads the NFL in interceptions. So why do we want him?

 

PTR

 

Because that's a real short version of a much longer story?

 

Last year was a major chest injury, gates in and out of the lineup, the VJax drama the last few years, them losing there 2 best olinemen to career ending injuries unexpectedly, turner being a hated coach out there, letting sproles walk, etc....

 

Rivers needs to tighten up his mechanics, as they were poor to begin and I think got a bit sloppier the last few years. Footwork seems to be going the wrong direction, but that could've just been an issue in the bit I've seen.

 

If we don't draft a guy, he would be a comfortable upgrade.

 

I don't think they let him go.

Edited November 20, 2012 by NoSaint

[PromoTheRobot]

Because that's a real short version of a much longer story?

 

Last year was a major chest injury, gates in and out of the lineup, the VJax drama the last few years, them losing there 2 best olinemen to career ending injuries unexpectedly, turner being a hated coach out there, letting sproles walk, etc....

 

Rivers needs to tighten up his mechanics, as they were poor to begin and I think got a bit sloppier the last few years. Footwork seems to be going the wrong direction, but that could've just been an issue in the bit I've seen.

 

If we don't draft a guy, he would be a comfortable upgrade.

 

I don't think they let him go.

 

Rivers was great from 2008-2010. He's been in decline since. So you are betting that he will suddenly revert to form as a Bill?

 

PTR

[Bronc24]

There is no way SD cuts that cord. Moot point.

[T master]

We need to look to the future not to a bandage for 2 or 3 years , Rivers is a good QB but it would be about the same as when we brought Bledsoe in ..

 

Rivers is good but it won't be long or even now could be starting on the down side of his career , so lets do our home work & get a guy that is going to be here for 10 or so years not 2 or 3 ..

 

Plus it will be cheaper with the way the new CBA has the rookie pay scale, Rivers will be asking a ton to move ..

[NoSaint]

 

 

Rivers was great from 2008-2010. He's been in decline since. So you are betting that he will suddenly revert to form as a Bill?

 

PTR

 

I think you are under rating his talents. But I think we have to agree to disagree.

 

On an aside - It's also amazing the talent that's left that team.... not to make excuses here, just amazing when you look at it over say the last 5-6 year - guys they either let walk or hit the wall unexpectedly

 

Brees - gone

Merriman - should've been a cornerstone

VJax was a ton of drama with the contract til leaving

Sproles is so dynamic

Turners up and down but mostly up

Dielman and McNeil both cut short by injury

 

And I don't know the team well enough to comment on role players. And leaving out guys that simply aged out (Tomlinson). Just cornerstone talents that left.

 

We need to look to the future not to a bandage for 2 or 3 years , Rivers is a good QB but it would be about the same as when we brought Bledsoe in ..

 

Rivers is good but it won't be long or even now could be starting on the down side of his career , so lets do our home work & get a guy that is going to be here for 10 or so years not 2 or 3 ..

 

Plus it will be cheaper with the way the new CBA has the rookie pay scale, Rivers will be asking a ton to move ..

 

I agree - not truly advocating for him, just discussing the player and team a bit

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

Huh??

 

Um.... Most new regimes bring in new QB because the old regime got fired for losing too often which usually was due to having a lousy QB. Tell me when Tony Dungy took over the Colts, did they cut Peyton Manning, or when Dungy left and Caldwell took over, did he get rid of Manning? What's the coach to QB ratio in Dallas, (not that Romo is all that great to begin with) Norv Turner didn't rid of Phillip Rivers either.

 

Any team with a highly thought of QB doesn't get rid of him when the coach changes. Would the next coach of the Eagles dump Vick, sure that may happen as he's questionable at best.

 

I personally haven't seen much of Rivers, but have heard that he has been underwhelming lately, and I don't mean just this season. If San Diego falls out of it and loses their coach, it would mean a possible change at QB too since (most *ahem*) new regimes bring in their new QB too. Again, I haven't seen much of the guy, so can anyone tell me if he's playing at a level that would make us better?

 

 

I think he still has enough years left that would be a good pickup if available, but he ain't going no where!

 

We need to look to the future not to a bandage for 2 or 3 years , Rivers is a good QB but it would be about the same as when we brought Bledsoe in ..

 

Rivers is good but it won't be long or even now could be starting on the down side of his career , so lets do our home work & get a guy that is going to be here for 10 or so years not 2 or 3 ..

 

Plus it will be cheaper with the way the new CBA has the rookie pay scale, Rivers will be asking a ton to move ..

[San Jose Bills Fan]

The problem is that most Bills fans don't just want an upgrade at quarterback.

 

They want the next great quarterback and nothing less.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

And when you look around the league and how many teams go through multiple QB's over a set number of years the odds are much higher that the Bill's end up with someone worse rather than better

 

The problem is that most Bills fans don't just want an upgrade at quarterback.

 

They want the next great quarterback and nothing less.

[Rob's House]

Rivers isn't going anywhere. For whatever faults he may have he's still a very solid QB. They've had a lot of issues with their O-line this year, and Gates is their only real offensive weapon, and he always seems to be dealing with nagging injuries.

 

Basically, Rivers is better than whoever they could replace him with.

[EDinRTP]

I would take Rivers in a heartbeat. Turning 31 and a top notch QB who could lead the young offense.

Drafting an unproven QB for 2-3 years down the road also makes sense, but to win in the near future he's a great option.

Plus, I love his "Jim Kelly" mentality. He'd be a WNY kinda guy.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I would take Rivers in a heartbeat. Turning 31 and a top notch QB who could lead the young offense.

Drafting an unproven QB for 2-3 years down the road also makes sense, but to win in the near future he's a great option.

Plus, I love his "Jim Kelly" mentality. He'd be a WNY kinda guy.

 

I agree but (regardless of the reality of whether they actually become available) most Bills fans seem to be against guys like Rivers and Romo.

 

They don't seem to want second-tier franchise QBs as far as I can tell.

[Homer]

Can you imagine the look on Woods face the first time Rivers yelled at him for missing a block....which he does with his own line...i mean really gets in their grill.

[Buftex]

I hate Rivers... he is likely an upgrade over anyone we have, but he just seems like a complete douche to me. I know that isn't real X's & O's stuff, but I just don't like the guy. If you watch him enough, you start to pick up on some pretty undesirable characteristics for a QB, IMO...he seems a little "pissy" at times....and, perhaps it is too many years spent in the stench of Norv Turner and the underachieving Chargers, but the guy just doesn't strike me as a winner. If he couldn't get it done, in his physical prime, with all the offensive talent the Chargers had over his time in San Diego, there is little reason for me to believe he would fare a lot better in Buffalo.

 

Jaws did a breakdown on Rivers a few weeks ago, and was making the point that Rivers arm strength seems to be diminishing, and his already unorthodox style seems to be breaking down, and he is developing bad habits that his arm strength can no longer make up for. When Jaws was talking about him, he could have been talking about Bernie Kosar. Like Rivers, he had unusual mechanics, but was so good for the first 7 or so years of his career that he was beyond reproach....but when it started to go downhill of him, it went down fast...

 

Now, maybe Rivers just needs a change of coach, or a change of scenery...but I don't think I would want to waste another 3 seasons finding out that he is done...

[CardinalScotts]

upgrade ? Rivers not really

[JOE IN HAMPTON ROADS]

I agree but (regardless of the reality of whether they actually become available) most Bills fans seem to be against guys like Rivers and Romo.

 

They don't seem to want second-tier franchise QBs as far as I can tell.

A second-tier franchise QB would work just fine if we had a top-tier defense and playoff caliber coaching. We have neither. We need a top-tier QB to overcome the systemic deficiencies in the team.

 

Rivers and Romo sound like Bledsoe to me.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

A second-tier franchise QB would work just fine if we had a top-tier defense and playoff caliber coaching. We have neither. We need a top-tier QB to overcome the systemic deficiencies in the team.

 

Rivers and Romo sound like Bledsoe to me.

 

Good point.

[MDH]

A second-tier franchise QB would work just fine if we had a top-tier defense and playoff caliber coaching. We have neither. We need a top-tier QB to overcome the systemic deficiencies in the team.

 

Rivers and Romo sound like Bledsoe to me.

 

But its easier to replace half of the D than it is to find an elite QB. Best bet is to try and draft a QB and fix the D in the process. They're not mutually exclusive.

 

As for Rivers, I doubt they'd let him go but he'd be an improvement over Fitz.

[JOE IN HAMPTON ROADS]

Anyone know where Fitz' contract stands? What kind of financial hit would management have to take to bring in a new QB?

[NoSaint]

Anyone know where Fitz' contract stands? What kind of financial hit would management have to take to bring in a new QB?

 

He's easily cut just about anytime. Owed a 3m bonus in march.

 

I expect him here next year, even if we add a rookie. Might see some restructuring.

[BillsBackersChicago]

The problem is that most Bills fans don't just want an upgrade at quarterback.

 

They want the next great quarterback and nothing less.

 

Spoken like a true scholar of this board. Well said, sir.

[Dr. K]

I would take Rivers in a heartbeat. Turning 31 and a top notch QB who could lead the young offense.

Drafting an unproven QB for 2-3 years down the road also makes sense, but to win in the near future he's a great option.

Plus, I love his "Jim Kelly" mentality. He'd be a WNY kinda guy.

 

I would also take him in a minute if he were available. I don't think he will be.

[Canks]

Rivers was traded for Eli Manning. Eli Freaking Manning!! 2 time MVP... YES, YOU MAKE THIS TRADE/SIGN HIM.

 

Any time you get a chance to get a guy who is basically a time superbowl winner YOU DO IT. Even Donahue would agree.

[mjt328]

Yes, he would be a BIG upgrade. But Rivers is not a free agent until 2016, and I doubt we would have a chance at him before then.

 

There are a lot of people around the league that think his arm strength is degrading, and that might be true. What I see when I watch the Chargers is a guy who is trying to do too much and win game all by himself. I honestly think the talent is still there, but he needs to stop forcing passes.

 

Consider that when Rivers was named starter for San Diego, they were one of the league's best teams and a Super Bowl contender. Since then:

 

- He has watched his coach (Schottenheimer) get replaced by one of the biggest bum head coaches in the league following a 14-2 season. The team hasn't been the same since.

- The decline and release of future HOF running back LT, along with San Diego letting Michael Turner and Sproles walk in free agency. The Chargers ground game now sucks bad.

- The offensive line falling to shambles, especially after injuries destroyed the career of his left tackle Marcus McNeil.

- The decline of his best weapon, Antonio Gates, and free agency loss of his best downfield receiver, Vincent Jackson.

 

It's no wonder that Rivers feels the pressure to carry the team on his back.

[NoSaint]

Yes, he would be a BIG upgrade. But Rivers is not a free agent until 2016, and I doubt we would have a chance at him before then.

 

There are a lot of people around the league that think his arm strength is degrading, and that might be true. What I see when I watch the Chargers is a guy who is trying to do too much and win game all by himself. I honestly think the talent is still there, but he needs to stop forcing passes.

 

Consider that when Rivers was named starter for San Diego, they were one of the league's best teams and a Super Bowl contender. Since then:

 

- He has watched his coach (Schottenheimer) get replaced by one of the biggest bum head coaches in the league following a 14-2 season. The team hasn't been the same since.

- The decline and release of future HOF running back LT, along with San Diego letting Michael Turner and Sproles walk in free agency. The Chargers ground game now sucks bad.

- The offensive line falling to shambles, especially after injuries destroyed the career of his left tackle Marcus McNeil.

- The decline of his best weapon, Antonio Gates, and free agency loss of his best downfield receiver, Vincent Jackson.

 

It's no wonder that Rivers feels the pressure to carry the team on his back.

 

And that ignores the dielman retirement due to concussions and the whole merriman debacle.

 

Since brees walked its been quite the run for aj smith. Both terrible luck, and stubborn choices.

[Buftex]

At what point do you stop making excuses for guys not succeeding, and come to the conclusion that they may be part of the problem?

[Bill from NYC]

Imo a move like this is more possible than many would believe. It would cost more than a 1st round pick. Perhaps 2, but it would instantly sell thousands of tickets. Now, would Rivers help in terms of football games? My guess is that he would be likely to win us 1 more game per season. MAYBE 2.

 

But let the buyer beware. SD would not offer him to us unless there were problems imo. He disrespects his coach on national tv, and who knows if his skills are declining? Really, is any team shopping a very good qb since the rule chnges? Is Houston going to trade Schaub for 1st round picks?

While we are at it, would Bellichick trade Mallett if he is in game shape and mentally fit? I suspect not.

 

So, imho, Nix would have to ask himself what would win more games.....Rivers or 2 first round picks, ticket sales notwithstanding. But again, I wouldn't quickly discount the possibility of a deal like this simply because of the business aspect.

 

Jmo.

[Bills Fan since '64]

We Bills fans are such losers that we routinely look at other teams' failing quarterbacks and dream that in a Bills uniform they would be magically transformed into stars. Ryan Fitzpatrick was one. Rob Johnson was another. Even Drew Bledsoe, who had a decent run in Buffalo, was on the downslide and didn't produce a playoff team. Only Doug Flutie worked out.

 

Rivers was in the same class as Roethlisberger and Losman. I was disappointed that we didn't get one of them but as it turns out, whoever we got we'd probably have ruined him.

[8-8 Forever?]

The problem is that most Bills fans don't just want an upgrade at quarterback.

 

They want the next great quarterback and nothing less.

Yep. Bills fans are such a desperate lot ... if Fitz were two inches taller, had a somewhat better arm and was good looking and arrogant, Bills fans would be in love with him and saying he just needs more time and he's our guy.. fans are dumb. By the time the QB situation is sorted out this franchise will be playing somewhere else. Enjoy what you have now, right now, because it is unlikely to last much longer.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Phillip Rivers? Hell no.

[jjmac]

We don't make that change. While he is a physical and talent upgrade over Fitz, Fitz knows this system, and can tutor the QB Nix says he's going to draft.

[FreakPop]

Yep. Bills fans are such a desperate lot ... if Fitz were two inches taller, had a somewhat better arm and was good looking and arrogant, Bills fans would be in love with him and saying he just needs more time and he's our guy.. fans are dumb. By the time the QB situation is sorted out this franchise will be playing somewhere else. Enjoy what you have now, right now, because it is unlikely to last much longer.

 

Yep!

 

Totally amazed at how people forget the garbage that was the Bills QB situation in the 2000's or really since Kelly retired.

 

Unless the Bills get a bonified Pro Bowler/HOFer, which is highly unlikely, it will be a case of don't know what you got til it's gone scenario, after running Fitz out of town.

[markgbe]

I really like rivers... i don't really get what is going on there... it appears they have a decent defense.. Is it the people around RIvers? is it Rivers?

[mjt328]

At what point do you stop making excuses for guys not succeeding, and come to the conclusion that they may be part of the problem?

 

Rivers most certainly is part of the problem in San Diego.

 

That doesn't mean he can't turn things around, or go back to playing at a high level. Like I said in my post, I think most of his troubles arise from the mentality that he has to carry the team. Better coaching and better talent around him could help.

 

Rivers has a history of winning in the NFL and playing at an MVP level. He as shown the physical and mental ability to be one of the top QBs in this league. There are many reasons to be optimistic he can do it again.

 

Fitz has NEVER proven anything in his career. He's never been a winner, never played at a high level for a full season and never shown the physical ability.

[markgbe]

Rivers most certainly is part of the problem in San Diego.

 

That doesn't mean he can't turn things around, or go back to playing at a high level. Like I said in my post, I think most of his troubles arise from the mentality that he has to carry the team. Better coaching and better talent around him could help.

 

Rivers has a history of winning in the NFL and playing at an MVP level. He as shown the physical and mental ability to be one of the top QBs in this league. There are many reasons to be optimistic he can do it again.

 

Fitz has NEVER proven anything in his career. He's never been a winner, never played at a high level for a full season and never shown the physical ability.

 

i mostly agree but.... i find it hard to believe for example that Eli manning is much better than Fitz. If he is better, he's only marginally better. To me that means the Bills could be competitive with a Solid defense, better coaching on both sides of the ball and maybe another good receiver.

[Coach Tuesday]

Sometimes I wonder if any of you watch other teams, or just talk about them without knowing the least bit about what is actually going on.

 

If you've watched the Chargers this year, and the last few years, it's obvious what the problems are. They have basically a street free agent at left tackle this year and he's a total mess. The line can't pass block, and it's clearly destroyed Rivers' timing and mechanics. It also has taken away the deep ball, one of their specialities (Norv loves deep-breaking route concepts). In addition, they let their number one receiver, Vincent Jackson, walk, and they haven't replaced him with anyone (they tried signing Meachem, and we know how that worked out).

 

These are obvious causes for Rivers' decline. Anyone who takes over that team next year (most likely Andy Reid) will realize what has happened and try to fix it. As some have said, that will not include jettisoning a perennial QB whose numbers went down because all of his weapons were stripped away. They'll build off of Rivers, not ship him away.

 

This discussion is moot.

[BuffalothruMyVeins]

Huh??

 

Um.... Most new regimes bring in new QB because the old regime got fired for losing too often which usually was due to having a lousy QB. Tell me when Tony Dungy took over the Colts, did they cut Peyton Manning, or when Dungy left and Caldwell took over, did he get rid of Manning? What's the coach to QB ratio in Dallas, (not that Romo is all that great to begin with) Norv Turner didn't rid of Phillip Rivers either.

 

Any team with a highly thought of QB doesn't get rid of him when the coach changes. Would the next coach of the Eagles dump Vick, sure that may happen as he's questionable at best.

 

 

 

I think he still has enough years left that would be a good pickup if available, but he ain't going no where!

 

I think the Peyton Manning example doesn't quite apply here, because when the Colts went from Mora to Dungy, it was to build a defense where their offense was already elite, so they could make the next step. Caldwell, well obviously by then you have one of the greatest QB's ever by that point, if he went into Polian's office and said let's dump Payton and find a replacement, he would have been fired and replaced before he even walked out of the room.

 

This angle of the response only works if you have a truely elite, franchise QB in place who has done some serious winning, like how Favre stayed, Big Ben, Eli, and Romo but he's on a constant hot seat, even though he's still a good QB.

 

The only real exceptions here are 2 NFC West teams, the Rams holding the course with Sam Bradford as their guy despite a solid history of losing, and the 49'ers keeping Alex Smith despite a career of mediocrity. So far, these decisions have played out in completely different directions, with Smith obviously playing much better under new coach, and Bradford, from what I've seen, doesn't look too good, and the move for a new QB may be in the cards this coming offseason (even though RG3 was sitting in their laps last draft).

 

How does that pertain to us? Well, is Rivers elite? If he is, he'll stay through a coaching change. If he isn't, than he's not worth us getting when he's available, isn't that what it boils down to? But what if he's just damaged goods, and when put in the proper system, can be, say, the #10 best QB for a 5 year period.

 

This is reguardless of whether you think Chan is the one who can get that out of him. I personally do. I think a lot of you are forgetting how embarassing our offense was before he got here. The worst I'd ever seen. Our defense and special teams combined were a good bet to outscore our offense on any given Sunday. Then he keeps not even the starting QB but the backup to those teams, and we turn into an above average offense. So I think he can do more when given more talent at the QB spot.

 

Right now Fitz has his limitations, as we ALL know, which is why we have our spread, horizontal passing attack. Screens, slants, hooks, receivers picking defenders for other receivers to get open, and Fitz has at most a 15 yard throw, the rest are gimmes of open guys that Chan's scheme has created. So stick Rivers in there, and perhaps the defense looking sideline to sideline within 10 yards of the LOS, now we have the arm strength to have to be defended 25 yards deep, sideline to sideline. That not only enhances the passing game, but makes Fred and CJ even better with less defenders in the box.

 

I'm not really saying that Rivers IS the guy, but he doesn't have to be a Manning to make this offense go from being what we are now (what are we, say 15th bes statistically?) Into a top 8 offense.

 

Now let's not talk about the defense.

[Realist]

Rivers would be a major upgrade over Fitz. Look what's holding our offense back, the erratic QB play and a viable no. 2 at WR. We have a good offensive line for once, our running backs are incredible, and the TE position is pretty solid in Chandler. Now look at the Chargers, they basically have nothing on offense except Rivers and because of that Rivers himself has declined because he has to try and do it all himself.

 

Put PR on this team and that makes the Bills instantly better on the offensive side of the ball. Do that and continue to work on the defense and who knows, this team might actually start winning with consistency.

 

Of course, all of this means nothing because Sad Diego will not let Rivers go.

[BuffBill]

I personally haven't seen much of Rivers, but have heard that he has been underwhelming lately, and I don't mean just this season. If San Diego falls out of it and loses their coach, it would mean a possible change at QB too since (most *ahem*) new regimes bring in their new QB too. Again, I haven't seen much of the guy, so can anyone tell me if he's playing at a level that would make us better?

 

I don't want to just hear from the "OMG he sucks stay away from him" croud, because I'm sure he's at least Fitz's equal. I'm looking for someone who has seen enough of him to say would he be able to give us say 5 years of 3,500 yards per with 25-30 TD's without being a risk to lead league in picks like our boy Fitz. Can he run the quick strike spread offense with screens, that we currently have, and add an element we don't currently have, the ability to make throws consistently outside the numbers and downfield?

Would Rivers be worth bringing in if he were to be on the block for, say, a 2nd rounder? Surely something would have to be done with Fitz' and his starter's contract if they did that, because we couldn't pay 2 starting QB's wages and watch Levitre and Byrd walk out the door. There IS the Nix connection, but not sure if that's enough.

 

Me personally, from what I've seen, he could have the best physical tools any QB under Gailey has ever had since (didn't Gailey OC some for Broncos before he went to Pitt?) Elway maybe? However, I just caught the end of the Chargers/Broncos game, he got sacked on about his own 20, down by a score, with about 12 or 13 seconds left... and yeah sure game was likely over, but he just got up and walked off the field while the clock ticked away... he could have at least tried to get 1 more play off. So that kinda unimpressed me with him, Trent was booted after giving up throwing ball out of bounds or running out of bounds at the end of the first or 2nd game under Gailey, for admitting defeat, so maybe that wouldn't play for Gailey either.

Rivers is having a down year, which alot of that relates to him having less talent around him then he has probably ever had. Doesn't help to have Norv Turner as your head coach either. With that said, on equal playing fields, Phillip Rivers is a top 7-8 QB in the NFL and I would take him in a heartbeat for the right price. Put him on this team, this season and the Bills have at least 2 more wins then they have now and would be right in the middle of the playoff scenario, not way on the outside having to have a dozen things go right for them in order to even have a chance. Edited November 20, 2012 by BuffBill