Billsguy Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Here's the look: http://www.freakonomics.com/2012/01/20/does-defense-really-win-championships/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swnybillsfan Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 no one component wins anything. what a dominant defense can do is make up for some deficiencies in special teams or offense. there is a very high value to be placed on a stout defense that stops the run, pressures the passer and creates turnovers. but if you have a great defense combined with an offense that cannot generate first downs or score points, then it is completely irrelevant. i believe that some sort of balance must be achieved to win a championship. either that or an enormous horshoe and incriminating photos of officials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playman Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) old adage ( or so ) if you dont score you cant win if they dont score you cant lose thing is, you need to sell out to one idea. and live with the results. i was always in favor of a terr(or)ific defense but thats just me Edited January 25, 2012 by playman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Hindsight Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 If you score more than the other team you win. Its a combination Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playman Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 sure. what i mean is how you approach it. will you go into a shooting contest or do you like to punch it out. and im for punching Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I thought it was funny that after the WC and divisional round all of the "experts" were saying defense was not important now and you just have to have a good offense. Then in conference Championships only 1 team scored more than 22 points and the rest scored less than 21. The games featured a lot of defense shutting down some very proficient NFL offenses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjmac Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) Our own history should suggest that defense is more important. Our 274-lb NT got taken advantage of in 4 Super Bowls. Edited January 26, 2012 by jjmac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 It can, but it doesn't always. More and more, great QB's are what win championships... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drinkTHEkoolaid Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I'll take a great qb and average defense over an average qb and great defense. Elite QBs are the single most important component of a winning team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pneumonic Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I thought it was funny that after the WC and divisional round all of the "experts" were saying defense was not important now and you just have to have a good offense. Then in conference Championships only 1 team scored more than 22 points and the rest scored less than 21. The games featured a lot of defense shutting down some very proficient NFL offenses. Yet the #2 and # 3 defenses in the league are at home while two of the lesser ranked defenses, and higher powered offense, are playing in the SB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjmac Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Yet the #2 and # 3 defenses in the league are at home while two of the lesser ranked defenses, and higher powered offense, are playing in the SB. Does it matter so much where they are ranked, or how they play in the conference championship games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 It worked for Alabama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsguy Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 Here's the look: http://www.freakonomics.com/2012/01/20/does-defense-really-win-championships/ The conclusion based on the evidence: "Bottom line: Defense is no more important than offense." The problem with the Bills is that they are deficient on both sides of the ball. Hopefully, the endless arguing about what is more important will subside. The same pointless arguments can be made about running games, run defense, QB play, etc. These are pointless arguments because you need all the elements to be consistently good. The historical exceptions (i.e. team X won the Super Bowl with a lousy QB and a great defense) will always lead to faulty conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cash Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I'll take a great qb and average defense over an average qb and great defense. Elite QBs are the single most important component of a winning team. Ditto. Especially because the elite QB is likely to stay elite for 8-10 years, whereas the elite D probably has more like a 3-4 year shelf life. But obviously you can win with great D and mediocre O. Of course, the ideal scenario is a great offense AND a great defense. The conclusion based on the evidence: "Bottom line: Defense is no more important than offense."The problem with the Bills is that they are deficient on both sides of the ball. Hopefully, the endless arguing about what is more important will subside. The same pointless arguments can be made about running games, run defense, QB play, etc. These are pointless arguments because you need all the elements to be consistently good. The historical exceptions (i.e. team X won the Super Bowl with a lousy QB and a great defense) will always lead to faulty conclusions. I agree that we should be generally concerned with improving the team rather than worrying about where those improvements come from. However, some elements of a team are definitely more important than others. Upgrading the FB/lead blocker position, for example, is a marginal benefit that leads to almost no extra wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timba Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 old adage ( or so ) if you dont score you cant win if they dont score you cant lose thing is, you need to sell out to one idea. and live with the results. i was always in favor of a terr(or)ific defense but thats just me If the rules were more balanced between offense and defense I would agree with you 100%. The problem is rules continue to be put in place that limit what defenders can do to so that a more interesting product is put on the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I just find it interesting that when the bills defense was playing well the bills offense seemed to be also....... I want to know if this team would be immensely better overall if they had a top 10 defense.....something is telling me yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealityCheck Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 If your play makers don't play in December, it does not seem to matter very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Defense doesn't LOSE championships. GO SABRES!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDaDdy Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Just thought this was REALLY interesting. Everyone likes to talk about the need for a franchise QB but three....repeat THREE of the top 4 defenses in the post season made it to the divisional championship round. Two out of 3 of those defenses will play in the superbowl. There are some really good QBs that left in the first round of the play offs that are going to be watching from home a couple sundays from now. Basically if you don't have a franchise post season defense you don't have a shot. Apparently defense might still win championships Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 With due respect i think your arguement is flawed there my friend, haha. But i do agree with the saying "Defenses Win Championships" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 yep Defense still wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 This one of them thar sarcasm thangs ah done heard bout on the radio? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Poojer Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Freakonomics take on this...pretty interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 (edited) These teams have played two or three games. Its like saying that the Bills have one of the best defenses in the league because they only gave up 293 yards per game in a three game stretch in November this year. Obviously, that's not the case for the Bills and its not true here, either. Look at the Pats as an example. They gave up 411 yards per game in the regular season, yet they're ranked 4th in defense in the postseason. But how worthless is that ranking? Well, they gave up 252 yards to Denver, then 398 to Baltimore. One great game, one right in line with their yearly average. So which is more indicative of the real Pats D? I have a pretty good idea. You see the same thing with the Giants. They had a great game against the Falcons, but in their next two, they were a lot closer to their average. Does defense win championships? Not this year. The two Super Bowl contenders bring the 2nd and 8th ranked offenses into the game, as well as the league's 31st and 27th ranked defenses. Edited January 28, 2012 by Brandon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincec Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Balance wins championships. You have to be strong in all phases. The reason the Giants and Patriots won their respective championship games is because their defenses stepped up in those games, otherwise they would've both been out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDaDdy Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 (edited) This is a very real question. It was sparked of course by a well timed post by another member that proclaimed that there were no first round RBs left in the playoffs at the conference championship level. Of course this was a back handed stab at teams like the Bills that select best player available which happened to be a RB instead of playing the lottery every year and trying to find the elusive and undefinable franchise QB. It did get me thinking though. What I found is that there seems to be something of a correlation between teams that are playing GREAT defense in the POST season and continued success in the play offs. What was interesting as a poster pointed out is that the Patriots in the regular season had a horrible defense statistically but have been GREAT in the post season. The whoopin' they put on the Ravens offense was what won the game for them as Brady, their elite, messiah, franchise QB failed them. Vince Wilfork was almost literally unstoppable. Small sample size? Yes. But without those great defensive performances Tom "Franchise" Brady would be sitting at home thinking about next year. Last year Green Bay's defense was lights out in their superbowl victory run. Good teams that make the playoffs play good defense when it counts. I am just bringing up another view of one of the MANY factors that come into play trying to get deep into the play offs. People have become so ridiculously focused on the QB position to the exclusion of everything else it is almost unbelievable. Have things gotten so bad that we aren't even concerned with building a good team and addressing one of the worst defenses in the league that last 4 years? People are still whining about QB when there are so many and I really mean SOOOOOO many other problems that are so much more important to building THIS team. Any supposedly franchise QB, which nobody can quantitatively or qualitatively define, would fail without talent around them. We could bring in anyone's favorite "elite QB" and they would fail with the talent on this team. The way some people talk you would think that games are decided by a single man on each team, the QB, lining up against each other and a contest of passing drills wins the day while ignoring who they have to pass to and who is attempting to prevent the other QB from scoring. Edited January 28, 2012 by PDaDdy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealityCheck Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Teams win championships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDaDdy Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 (edited) Freakonomics take on this...pretty interesting Very cool article. I'm not in the slightest bit surprised. Basically you have to be really good at one and not terrible at the other WHEN IT COUNTS! Some mediocre regular season defenses have played well in the play offs and some mediocre regular season offenses have played well in the play offs. I am REALLY REALLY interested though to see what these guys take is specifically on playing good defense in the playoffs. They seem to only reference regular season defensive performance where in this thread I am focusing on post season defensive performance. In other words good post season defense wins championships. Another catch phrase that many have heard is that the season starts over when the play offs begin and the regular season means nothing. My discussion centers around the combination of thase two tenants. Teams win championships. Absolutely! People seem to forget and they look at the QB position in a vacuum and ignore who he is or isn't throwing to or how much time he has to throw it or they only focus on one side of the ball. These teams have played two or three games. Its like saying that the Bills have one of the best defenses in the league because they only gave up 293 yards per game in a three game stretch in November this year. Obviously, that's not the case for the Bills and its not true here, either. Look at the Pats as an example. They gave up 411 yards per game in the regular season, yet they're ranked 4th in defense in the postseason. But how worthless is that ranking? Well, they gave up 252 yards to Denver, then 398 to Baltimore. One great game, one right in line with their yearly average. So which is more indicative of the real Pats D? I have a pretty good idea. You see the same thing with the Giants. They had a great game against the Falcons, but in their next two, they were a lot closer to their average. Does defense win championships? Not this year. The two Super Bowl contenders bring the 2nd and 8th ranked offenses into the game, as well as the league's 31st and 27th ranked defenses. When the play offs begin everyone is 0 - 0 and the regular season doesn't matter. An interesting point is that the two super bowl contenders bring the #2 and #4 post season defenses. They do also bring in reverse order the #2 and #4 offenses. Hrmmm....maybe balance and team effort are really the answer not a single side of the ball or a single position oh say for example QB? Edited January 28, 2012 by PDaDdy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 When the play offs begin everyone is 0 - 0 and the regular season doesn't matter. An interesting point is that the two super bowl contenders bring the #2 and #4 post season defenses. They do also bring in reverse order the #2 and #4 offenses. Hrmmm....maybe balance and team effort are really the answer not a single side of the ball or a single position oh say for example QB? I'm just saying that the sample size is too small to say that they're really playing as well as the rankings, or, more importantly, that they could sustain it even if they were. The regular season rankings are likely much more indicative of the actual quality of those two defenses. ' Otherwise, yes, I'm in agreement that a balanced approach is the best one. That said, if I had to pick one or the other, I'd rather be stronger on offense than defense. You may slow these elite offenses like NE down, but you'll rarely stop them completely, and in a close game, they'll find a way to beat your D on that last drive of the game to win it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yungmack Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Why your premise continues to be a point of argument for some people is beyond me. Yes, you must have a good offense (or at least a "good enough" offense). But even the finest offense is useless if it can't get on the field. A good defense limits an opposing offense's time-of-possession, which limits its chances of scoring while increasing its offense's scoring opportunities. The best example of this truism is our own Bills in its offensive heyday in the 90s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDaDdy Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Why your premise continues to be a point of argument for some people is beyond me. Yes, you must have a good offense (or at least a "good enough" offense). But even the finest offense is useless if it can't get on the field. A good defense limits an opposing offense's time-of-possession, which limits its chances of scoring while increasing its offense's scoring opportunities. The best example of this truism is our own Bills in its offensive heyday in the 90s. Sadly +1. If the NFL rules were as offensive and QB friendly as they now are I dare say we would have 4 super bowl wins. I'm 1000% serious about that. Jim Kelly got hammered every play and our WRs got mugged all over the field in the superbowls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tennesseeboy Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Defense might win championships. Our defense doesn't even give us a winning season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Good teams win championships. Sometimes it's an offensive heavy team. Sometimes it's a defense heavy team. Sometimes it's a well balanced team. We are none of the above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Just thought this was REALLY interesting. Everyone likes to talk about the need for a franchise QB but three....repeat THREE of the top 4 defenses in the post season made it to the divisional championship round. Two out of 3 of those defenses will play in the superbowl. There are some really good QBs that left in the first round of the play offs that are going to be watching from home a couple sundays from now. Basically if you don't have a franchise post season defense you don't have a shot. Apparently defense might still win championships As I pointed out in another thread, these two teams played in the SB 4 years ago and they were lead by their QB's then and now. Otherwise, the rosters have almost completely turned over. It's important to have balance, but if you want to be competing for SB's you really ought to find an elite QB then try to build a team around him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDaDdy Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 As I pointed out in another thread, these two teams played in the SB 4 years ago and they were lead by their QB's then and now. Otherwise, the rosters have almost completely turned over. It's important to have balance, but if you want to be competing for SB's you really ought to find an elite QB then try to build a team around him. Please statistically define what a elite QB is? Please tell us how many QBs meet this criteria? I also have to add you have it all backward. Every year you attempt to build a team. If a slam dunk elite QB comes along which nobody has accepted my challenge to define then you get him. Otherwise you run the risk that your elite QB gets killed or gets run out of town before you can build a team around him if you wait to build a team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Yawn. There is more than one way to skin a cat… Why are people looking for absolute truths in a world where such things are very rare? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 These teams have played two or three games. Its like saying that the Bills have one of the best defenses in the league because they only gave up 293 yards per game in a three game stretch in November this year. Obviously, that's not the case for the Bills and its not true here, either. Look at the Pats as an example. They gave up 411 yards per game in the regular season, yet they're ranked 4th in defense in the postseason. But how worthless is that ranking? Well, they gave up 252 yards to Denver, then 398 to Baltimore. One great game, one right in line with their yearly average. So which is more indicative of the real Pats D? I have a pretty good idea. You see the same thing with the Giants. They had a great game against the Falcons, but in their next two, they were a lot closer to their average. Does defense win championships? Not this year. The two Super Bowl contenders bring the 2nd and 8th ranked offenses into the game, as well as the league's 31st and 27th ranked defenses. Interesting post - good points. Regarding defense, I think it's worth noting that the Pats and Giants low ranking, mentioned above, is in yards per game. In points per game given up, the Pats are #15 and the Giants #25. (It's not TOP for the Pats either, their D has the ball 31 minutes a game) As far as I can tell, the Giants DL has been plagued by injuries all season, got players back healthy, and is now much better than their regular-season record would suggest. They are at the top for points given up in the postseason, too. I'm not sure what that means, except that if the Giants D gets on the plane to IIND perhaps it will be a good Superbowl for a change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bills!Win! Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 List me a team that won a Super Bowl without a good defense. Case and point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDaDdy Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 List me a team that won a Super Bowl without a good defense. Case and point Or a team whose defense didn't at least play well when it counted in the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Poojer Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 List me a team that won a Super Bowl without a good offense. It's not having one or the other or the best of one or the other, it s a combination of both and a whole s**tload of intangibles all falling into place at the right time. List me a team that won a Super Bowl without a good defense. Case and point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts