Bills vs Chiefs WR investment

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

51 minutes ago, NewEra said:

yes- they’re 0-2 and a tougher division now.  I get it.  But they’re also trying to gel their OL and are without their top 2 WRs.  If there’s a team that deserves the benefit of the doubt- it’s the chiefs.  

You answered your own question. The AFCW has finally caught up. Broncos, Raiders, (not good enough to win the division, but good enough to steal a W from KC) and most of all the Chargers are starting to close the gap. Chiefs coasted a long time with an easy division and 1st round Bye. How many teams who started out 0-2 went on to get the 1 seed ? Even the odds of winning their division are cut drastically.
 

I am giving Mahomes the benefit of the doubt by saying they’ll get the Wildcard. Any other team I would write them off from the playoffs altogether with the way their roster looks. Especially a team with an 0-2 start and soon to be one of the toughest divisions in the NFL. 

Edited September 18 by ChronicAndKnuckles

[gonzo1105]

By the way, and I know it’s early but despite some people saying we struggled with the Jets Defense, James Cook is on pace for 1,400 yards rushing and 500 yards receiving , Coleman 1,100 yards, Palmer over 900 etc. A lot of that has to do with Allen but I’d hardly say that’s disappointing. This doesn’t include a slew of others who would be on pace for 500-700 yards as well 

[BuffaloBillyG]

2 hours ago, The Jokeman said:

So adding Samuel, Palmer and Elijah Moore isn't similar? Maybe our guys signed not as "good" in terms of individual stats yet our offense has seemingly performed better on average than the Chiefs the last few years.

Similar in the way that Walmarts Great Value brand is similar to brand names.

 

It's the same basic thing but the guys we signed at the WR spot are dart throws that "may" elevate their game as opposed to the Chiefs that signed WRs that have had success at the NFL level. 

 

The reason I believe our offense has performed better (I do agree with you) is that our running game is miles better than theirs since Pacheco fell off. We have a more balanced offense that will do better against the modern defenses

[SoCal Deek]

Didn’t read through every response but I’m not sure how one can do this comparison without including Kincaid, a pass catching TE, who was taken in the 1st round. 

[The Jokeman]

3 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Similar in the way that Walmarts Great Value brand is similar to brand names.

 

It's the same basic thing but the guys we signed at the WR spot are dart throws that "may" elevate their game as opposed to the Chiefs that signed WRs that have had success at the NFL level. 

 

The reason I believe our offense has performed better (I do agree with you) is that our running game is miles better than theirs since Pacheco fell off. We have a more balanced offense that will do better against the modern defenses

That's the thing there is no one exact way to put a winning team together, some do it with a tough defense and strong running attack, others do it with a great offense etc. The fact is the Bills have been one of the best teams in the league since McDermott and Beane got here. The only issue they have gotten past KC to get to the next level and guess what? Most teams haven't gotten past KC either yet they do look weaker than have in previous years whereas we look as strong as ever. 

[Mikie2times]

2 hours ago, FireChans said:

?????

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_LVII

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_LVIII

When a quarter of your list are guys signed 6 years ago who have been retired, I have to wonder.

 

Did you include the “fact” that Keon Coleman was almost basically a first round pick despite being picked 33?

That was his point assignment

[ddaryl]

8 hours ago, NeverOutNick said:

 

 

And I like how Coleman is developing I just wish the Bills took the WR position as seriously in the draft as they try to with the D line 

The D Line IMO is our playoff albatross and has needed the attention. Hopefully we have a solid combo when the suspensions end in the 2nd half of our season because this IMO is what will propel us forward or keep us from acheiving our goals. The offense is fine

But Sean McDermotts D has not produced well against the best teams in the playoffs, Beanes pick up have not put the D over the top, and I don't think Allen and the offense should not be expected to haved to put of 40 to MAYBE win a playoff game

Edited September 18 by ddaryl

[nuklz2594]

I don't miss wr Perry Tuttle

[HappyDays]

4 hours ago, folz said:

And I know you can't draw conclusions from just two games, and obviously Keon has the better QB/offense, but so far this year:

Coleman: 14 targets, 11 receptions, 138 rec yards, 9 rush yards, 1 TD

Thomas:  19 targets, 5 receptions, 60 rec yards, 48 rush yards, 0 TD

 

Jags fans are not happy with BTJ right now. All over social media I see them saying he has been playing soft and some are even saying he should be benched for a game to teach him a lesson. Liam Cohen was even asked about his lack of effort in the post game presser after the Cincy loss. Still very early in the season but if that problem continues that is obviously a big red flag. Extremely talented player but there were questions on his toughness coming out of LSU.

[FireChans]

33 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Jags fans are not happy with BTJ right now. All over social media I see them saying he has been playing soft and some are even saying he should be benched for a game to teach him a lesson. Liam Cohen was even asked about his lack of effort in the post game presser after the Cincy loss. Still very early in the season but if that problem continues that is obviously a big red flag. Extremely talented player but there were questions on his toughness coming out of LSU.

Playing with a QB that sucks and can’t get you the ball will do that to you.

 

BTJ is still that dude

[SCBills]

Would yall rather have:

 

Hollywood Brown

Xavier Worthy

Rashee Rice

Juju Smith Schuster

Jalen Royals

Tyquan Thornton

 

or

 

Keon Coleman

Josh Palmer

Khalil Shakir

Elijah Moore

Tyrell Shavers 

Curtis Samuel

 

This was supposed to be the year Mahomes “takes his revenge on the league” because of how talented people thought their group was coming into the season.   Obviously injury and suspension has derailed that early. 

 

Honestly, those WR rooms are probably pretty equal both in current ability and future potential.   So it will be interesting to see if the Chiefs are active at the trade deadline for WR.. because this all kinda goes out the window if they trade for Tyreek Hill.  
 

 

Edited September 18 by SCBills

[NewEra]

3 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

You answered your own question. The AFCW has finally caught up. Broncos, Raiders, and most of all the Chargers are starting to close the gap. Chiefs coasted a long time with an easy division and 1st round Bye. How many teams who started out 0-2 went on to get the 1 seed ? Even the odds of winning their division are cut drastically.
 

I am giving Mahomes the benefit of the doubt by saying they’ll get the Wildcard. Any other team I would write them off from the playoffs altogether with the way they have looked. Especially a team with an 0-2 start and soon to be one of the toughest divisions in the NFL. 

Not sure what my question was.  Why people are writing off the chiefs, I assume?  
 

I they’ve earned the right to not be written off due to the fact that they’ve been written off by many since they traded Tyreek.  All they did was make the SB every year since then.  
 

maybe the division being more difficult will push them to the WC- but I don’t see that as being a big problem for them.  They beat us in Buffalo in the divisional round 2 years ago.  
 

if people want to write them off, that’s their prerogative- I just think it’s premature.  I’ll withhold judgement until I see how their offense performs when they get Rice and Worthy back…..and once the trade deadline passes.  Tyreek could on his way back and I’d be damned if I didn’t think he would excel there again. 

[Mikie2times]

20 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Not sure what my question was.  Why people are writing off the chiefs, I assume?  
 

I they’ve earned the right to not be written off due to the fact that they’ve been written off by many since they traded Tyreek.  All they did was make the SB every year since then.  
 

maybe the division being more difficult will push them to the WC- but I don’t see that as being a big problem for them.  They beat us in Buffalo in the divisional round 2 years ago.  
 

if people want to write them off, that’s their prerogative- I just think it’s premature.  I’ll withhold judgement until I see how their offense performs when they get Rice and Worthy back…..and once the trade deadline passes.  Tyreek could on his way back and I’d be damned if I didn’t think he would excel there again. 

Miami would F us with a Tyreek trade. Yes, he would be effective. It would elevate them considerably, especially if Worthy and Rice are healthy. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

16 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Miami would F us with a Tyreek trade. Yes, he would be effective. It would elevate them considerably, especially if Worthy and Rice are healthy. 

 

Not sure what Miami would get back in the trade - but what is the point of tyreek as a deep threat when you have brown.  For the motion looks they like to run, worthy seems to be the guy there.  Rice is primarily in the slot.  

 

If Worthy projects to miss a lot of time going into the 2nd half maybe?  I just feel like these WRs get brought on mid-season and never make the same level of impact.  

[Einstein's Dog]

16 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

 

He will always be officially a 2nd rounder.  But it was our first round pick, Carolina slid back 1 spot to make him a 2nd rounder, but Keon was our pick at 31 and we still used that pick to acquire Keon while adding an extra pick.  So its still essentially our first round pick we used to get him.  Never understood this need to focus on it being our "2nd" rounder to imply we invested "less" into the position so many people like to do (not saying either of you are, just it happens a lot by plenty).  We still took our first pick, from the first round and flipped it into a WR 1 slot later.

I agree with you in that I feel Coleman was the Bills FO choice the whole way.  But if we believe that, it seems likely that the Bills made the trades believing none of the other teams would take Coleman prior to them.

 

But there are differences in having 1st vs 2nd round.  One major difference being the contract and franchising strategies.  With a first rounder you get 5 years vs just 4 for a second rounder.  It seems reasonable to think that Carolina traded up one spot to get that advantage.  The Bills apparently did not think that made that much of a difference.  

 

I remember thinking when the Bills traded down that it increased the odds that they would get McConkey over Coleman because McConkey was thought to have the higher floor but lower ceiling, which would be the kind of player you give up the first round perks for.  So far that scenario does seem to be playing out, McConkey had the better season last year and Coleman is closing the gap this year.  

 

I still don't know why Beane traded down into the second for a player who would take longer to develop but has a high ceiling.  At he end of next season if things progress the way they are looking it is going to cost a lot to extend Coleman - more than what the 5th year of the 31st pick in the first round would cost.

[FireChans]

4 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

Not sure what Miami would get back in the trade - but what is the point of tyreek as a deep threat when you have brown.  For the motion looks they like to run, worthy seems to be the guy there.  Rice is primarily in the slot.  

 

If Worthy projects to miss a lot of time going into the 2nd half maybe?  I just feel like these WRs get brought on mid-season and never make the same level of impact.  

Worthy is hurt, Rice isn’t back for another 4 games and who knows what he will look like.

 

Its kinda poetic that we could end Miami’s season tonight, and they could trade Tyreek to our biggest obstacle as a result.

 

IMO, there’s no team that Tyreek would have MORE of an impact if added midseason than the Chiefs

[Thurman#1]

16 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

 

He will always be officially a 2nd rounder.  But it was our first round pick, Carolina slid back 1 spot to make him a 2nd rounder, but Keon was our pick at 31 and we still used that pick to acquire Keon while adding an extra pick.  So its still essentially our first round pick we used to get him.  Never understood this need to focus on it being our "2nd" rounder to imply we invested "less" into the position so many people like to do (not saying either of you are, just it happens a lot by plenty).  We still took our first pick, from the first round and flipped it into a WR 1 slot later.

 

 

We stress it's a 2nd because it's a 2nd. If it were a 1st, we'd call it a 1st.

 

"We ain't talking long division," as Roy McAvoy said.

 

And we don't need to imply that we "invested 'less'". We actually did invest less. No quotation marks needed. Instead of giving up the 28th pick (not the 31st), we were able to get him by giving up only the 33rd. They traded back twice, 28th to 32nd and then 32nd to 33rd. The 33rd pick is factually worth less than the 28th pick. And not one pick less. Five picks less. Allowing us to pick up Sedrick Van Pran Granger and move up two later picks to better ones (133 to 95 and 248 to 221).

 

The main reason they traded back from 28th to 33rd was simply that they were virtually sure that Keon would still be there early in the 2nd when the pick they acquired came up. 

 

 

[SoTier]

Starting a comparison between the Bills' and Chiefs' investment in WRs in 2021 as the OP did is not going to yield legitimate conclusions if any.    The Beane regime started in May, 2017 after the most of FA period and the draft, so starting the comparison in 2018 makes more sense than 2021, which seems arbitrary at best.   Moreover, in order to do a real evaluation, you have to consider the WRs already on the roster as well as those WRs who were added or who left and when this happened.   It's much more complicated than simply looking at who these teams drafted, signed or traded.

[Thurman#1]

17 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

Since 2021 (have to start somewhere, the Bills also invested picks in 2020)

 

The Chiefs have drafted a WR for 5 consecutive years. 1st rounder, (2) 2nd rounders, 4th rounder, and 5th rounder. So fairly high value assets. The results of those drafts are below. 

 

Jalen Royals, Xavier Worthy, Rashee Rice, Sky Moore, and Cornell Powell. 

 

The Bills have drafted a WR for 5 consecutive years as well. 1st rounder, 2 (5th's), and 6th rounder, and a 7th rounder. So fairly low value assets outside of Coleman. The results of those drafts are below. 

 

Keon Coleman, Kaden Prather, Justin Shorter, Khalil Shakir, and Marquez Stevenson.

 

What interests me about this question is for largely two consecutive years when I have watched Chiefs games I have said to myself this has to be the worst WR group in football. I mean, we complain about our WR's, but last week it was Hollywood Brown, Taquan Thornton, and Ju Ju. Last year it was largely the same. Mind you, Worthy could very well be something, and Rice is something, but neither looks to be the most durable. Maybe that is dumb bad luck, maybe not, but the fact remains KC is consistently fielding a horrific WR core the last two years.

 

 

 

More, let's look at value. Here are the individual picks. You can see that the Chiefs invested significantly larger values.

 

Chiefs 28, 54, 55, 133, 181

Bills  33, 148, 150, 203, 240 and two more in 2020, 128 (Gabe Davis), 207 (Isaiah Hodgins). The Chiefs didn't draft any that year.

 

So the highest values relate like this. The highest pick for the Chiefs was #28 (Xavier Worthy) and for the Bills #33 (Keon Coleman)

 

The second highest values are the Chiefs at 54 (Skyy Moore) and the Bills at #148 (Khalil Shakir)

 

Third highest? Chiefs at #55 (Rashee Rice) and Bills at 150

 

Fourth? Chiefs at #133 and Bills at #203

 

Fifth? Chiefs at #181 and Bills at #240

 

In every one of those, the Chiefs invested more, and in many they invested a lot more.

[Ayjent]

1 hour ago, Mikie2times said:

Miami would F us with a Tyreek trade. Yes, he would be effective. It would elevate them considerably, especially if Worthy and Rice are healthy. 

Yeah but there is a sticky thing with the contract and the amount of money the Chiefs would need to make room for.