Does there need to be a rethinking of the basic D?

[HamptonBillsfan]

Our defense wants to be aggressive without a legitimate pass rusher. Hopefully Bosa can be that guy but he doesn’t play much if history is any indication. The fact that QBs don’t get much pressure puts stress on our secondary. When healthy, we can survive with the bend don’t break approach but Josh will have to win many shootouts. It promises to be nerve racking.

[The Red King]

Our pass rush was nonexistent last season.  If you try and fix it, the best you can do is get enough players to fix the starting 11.  You can't get enough players in one offseason to not only overhaul the starting line, but also provide depth.

 

All yesterday proved is that if our starters go down, our pass rush goes with them.  Alarming, yes, but not unexpected.

 

Now if the season begins, and our starters can't get to the QB, *then* I'll push the panic button.

[finn]

2 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

I guess using picks #30, 41, 72, 109, 177, 179 entirely on defensive players is not going to make any difference ? 

No, not really. Sanders will contribute, and Walker and Hancock may make enough plays to give us hope for next year. But otherwise, no, they won't make a difference, not really.

 

No, it will be pretty much the same team coached by the same coaches with, probably, the same result, at least if we meet KC in the playoffs. What reason is there to expect otherwise? I'm not without hope: the ball could bounce our way, the league could tire of throwing games to KC, or Allen could turn it up yet another notch. Shoot, maybe one of the picks you listed could turn into a star right away. But I'm not betting my house. 

[HappyDays]

Man I thought I was negative about McDermott's defense, but even I'm not making sweeping judgments about the 2025 scheme based on a preseason game. Yeah you can judge individual performances, but judging the scheme is ludicrous. There are a lot of signs that point to the defense trying some new things this year. It still has to come together especially when it counts in the playoffs but they are not going to put those wrinkles on tape now. They've been very intentional about putting young and/or roster bubble players on islands and seeing how they perform mano a mano. You might as well watch 1v1 drills and criticize the route sequencing.

[SoTier]

12 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

I am not the sort to panic over a couple preseason games but I have noticed that, in both games so far, the quick pass has been pretty successful.  It nullified the rush for the most part, and sitting in zone allowed WRs to get open in a regular basis.  So I’m wondering if this might force a switch from a zone dominant scheme more to a man concept.  Many here are much better scholars of strategy than me so please weigh in.

 

In answer to the question you posed in the thread title, "NO".

[billsfan714]

God I hope so.   When i think of teams that win superbowls seems like the more physical team, especially on defense wins.   I dont see this bend, dont break, hope the other team makes a mistake philosophy, ever getting us to the promised land.

[henry jones]

Relatively poor drafting on the defensive side of the ball has crippled this defense.  The way Chicago's 2nd & 3rd teamers beat the crap out of ours is a clear indication that we don't have the athletes for whatever the hell scheme we have.

[vincec]

12 hours ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

What new system?  Nothing out of camp has suggested anything new. 

 

Oh that's right,  McDermott has his own alternate universe pocket where he take the defense at night and trains the new defense.

This is what I’ve been saying all camp. It’s the same defense. Same coaching staff. Same scheme. Same starters except for Trey White (who will be lucky not to be a downgrade) and Bosa. No obvious prospects of meaningful help from the other new acquisitions (see last night).
 

What has happened to signal any improvement for this upcoming year?

[SoonerBillsFan]

16 minutes ago, vincec said:

This is what I’ve been saying all camp. It’s the same defense. Same coaching staff. Same scheme. Same starters except for Trey White (who will be lucky not to be a downgrade) and Bosa. No obvious prospects of meaningful help from the other new acquisitions (see last night).
 

What has happened to signal any improvement for this upcoming year?

Like someone else said, they brought in a former DC who coached up DL and someone else that emphasizes man coverage. 

 

I haven't seen any improvement in the DL so far. Pre season or not, you win your 1 on 1 battles and we aren't doing well at it

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

2 hours ago, finn said:

No, not really. Sanders will contribute, and Walker and Hancock may make enough plays to give us hope for next year. But otherwise, no, they won't make a difference, not really.

 

No, it will be pretty much the same team coached by the same coaches with, probably, the same result, at least if we meet KC in the playoffs. What reason is there to expect otherwise? I'm not without hope: the ball could bounce our way, the league could tire of throwing games to KC, or Allen could turn it up yet another notch. Shoot, maybe one of the picks you listed could turn into a star right away. But I'm not betting my house. 

You state this as if it’s a fact. Anyone of those draft picks could make an immediate impact. Who thought Elam would bust and Benford would become the #1 CB? The draft is a crapshoot. Every single year NFL teams have unexpected players rise up. 

[thenorthremembers]

15 hours ago, Xwnyer said:

Tired of the soft zone tampa 2 scheme.  Playing 10 yards off receivers, safeties 20 yards deep and heading away from LOS at snap lots of open area just over the LBs

 

The Bills dont run a Tampa 2 Scheme under McDermott, they never have.  His original base defense here was the 4-3 Under which he learned under Jim Johnson in Philadelphia.  Since then the base defense has been more 4-2-5.    A Tampa 2 scheme depends on a middle linebacker helping to play cover 3, thats not the role of a middle linebacker in 4-3 under.

 

You had multiple people give you thumbs up for your post.  It's fine if you guys want to bash the defense but at the very least try and understand what you are bashing. 

 

 

[Big Blitz]

If Bosa, Benford, and Milano play 17 games - where does our D rank?

 

 

 

I say it would be a top 5 Def.  No doubt.  

[billsfan714]

One thing is for sure to me, they have to improve 3rd down defense, you cant be bottom 3 in the league in that stat.  Difference in getting the ball back or giving the other team a new set of downs.

[Richard Noggin]

8 hours ago, Shortchaz said:

Bit of a nuanced take:

My biggest issue with the base defense is I don’t feel  like it’s the type of defense that has success at the highest level/in the playoffs. Making things more complicated is that it is often successful in other situations. 

The Bills need to be doing the things that the best defenses do, especially in the playoffs, throughout the regular season. Play more man, play more 4-3, stunt more, be more aggressive in general and roll the dice. Force the offense to do something rather than read and react. 
 

by doing these things more often in the regular season, they will be more prepared to do them when they need them. In a sense you trade some of your regular season capital(?) for post season success. 
 

 

 

Love the bolded, as it defines McD's tenure to date. 

 

The problem with what many of us want the Bills to do more of, as you detail above, relies on a different mindset/philosophy of play-calling all together. It's a more high-risk, high-reward style of diverse/matchup/play-to-play poker play-calling where the DC is competing against the opposing OC (whoever calls plays) as much or more than he's running a "scheme" or "system" that only really works with high end talent who know "the system" with total fluency. 

 

I'm recalling what it looks like when Sean McDermott calls out-of-character, yet predictable, late game cover-zero blitzes that lost us two games in the same season (2023, right?). He's not always great at predicting what opponents want to do in general and what they will do play-to-play imho. Hopefully Babich shows growth in this particular skill. 

 

4 hours ago, billsfan714 said:

God I hope so.   When i think of teams that win superbowls seems like the more physical team, especially on defense wins.   I dont see this bend, dont break, hope the other team makes a mistake philosophy, ever getting us to the promised land.

 

The bend part is more talent-based imho. The Bills cover guys, outside of Benford, and Johnson a little, don't fare well being more aggressive early in the route. Our LBs (minus Milano and to a lesser extent Bernard) and safeties do NOT always get to their spots or read the route concepts/progressions early enough to close those drafty windows. Which means there are reliable gimmes for the taking if they stick to a quick hitting/timing attack and continue to mix in the run with some success.

 

That Carolina defense, on the contrary, didn't intentionally bend much, primarily because they were stacked with difference makers. Until that season when they repeatedly left their rookie corners on cover-3 islands to get fairly abused. The "scheme" didn't really adjust to the talent, or I guess the talent was not good enough to continually run that scheme. 

[PrimeTime101]

17 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

I am not the sort to panic over a couple preseason games but I have noticed that, in both games so far, the quick pass has been pretty successful.  It nullified the rush for the most part, and sitting in zone allowed WRs to get open in a regular basis.  So I’m wondering if this might force a switch from a zone dominant scheme more to a man concept.  Many here are much better scholars of strategy than me so please weigh in.

First off I defend my pukes.. I don't puke on a post and leave it as is..

 

you should of just stopped with the But. You were doing so well till then... 

 

 

you're reading too much into preseason ball.  You really think that half the game, we will play 1 man back all game when they are throwing as much as they were?

 

There is 1's vs many of our 2's/ Their 2's vs many of our 2's and 3's

 

its reading to much into preseason

 

 

Did EVERYONE forget the 36-6 but kicking we took against Chicago 2024?

And how did that work out for both teams last year.. 

 

You want to talk post season then I am game....

 

but till our #1 team is on the field altogether.. you have no clue how this team will look like.

 

moving on.

[PrimeTime101]

15 hours ago, Logic said:

"I am not the sort to panic over a couple preseason games but..."

*Proceeds to panic over a couple preseason games*

this is spot on... 

[Victory Formation]

17 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

I am not the sort to panic over a couple preseason games but I have noticed that, in both games so far, the quick pass has been pretty successful.  It nullified the rush for the most part, and sitting in zone allowed WRs to get open in a regular basis.  So I’m wondering if this might force a switch from a zone dominant scheme more to a man concept.  Many here are much better scholars of strategy than me so please weigh in.

Much of the time on defense you know what the offense will do, but can you stop it? Most of the time it’s a battle between will.

[Buffaloflash]

19 hours ago, HardyBoy said:

 

Yes, they should totally run their new defensive system in a meaningless preseason game for the first time so the Ravens can prepare for it... that's a fabulous idea

My thought exactly. Beside, nothing else can excuse the defensive play calling.

Edited August 19 by Buffaloflash

[GunnerBill]

I don't think the scheme needs a major overhaul. I am interested to look at how the Bills approach 3rd down. The Frazier defense was a very good 3rd down defense and for this scheme - that does not mind giving up yards in return for keeping control of points and making teams go the distance - you have to be good at both getting takeaways AND winning 3rd down and since Frazier left we have gradually got worse on 3rd down. In fairness that also coincided with the drop off in health and reliability of Hyde and Poyer and no less than Bill Belichick used to say were the absolute best in the league at disguising coverages when those two played together. That is big on 3rd down because the QB takes the snap thinking you are in one defense and then by the time the ball hits his hands you are in something else. I think it is the combination of the coordinator changes and the weakness of our safety play that is the heart of the problem more than the fundamentals of the scheme. 

 

They HAVE to be better this year. 

[finn]

8 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

You state this as if it’s a fact. Anyone of those draft picks could make an immediate impact. Who thought Elam would bust and Benford would become the #1 CB? The draft is a crapshoot. Every single year NFL teams have unexpected players rise up. 

We're talking about immediate impact the year the player is drafted enough to put the Bills over the top in that last playoff game. You're doing a straw man implying I'm saying no rookie will have any impact or be better than expected.