Keon Coleman success by route - Not pretty

[DJB]

I guess many just want to continue to bury their heads in the sand and hope the problem goes away? 
 

WR is still an ongoing issue and it will

continue to be one until it’s fixed 

[Matt_In_NH]

Josh is perfect, any problems are 100% not him ever 

[RiotAct]

the less separation, the better!  Builds character.

[DJB]

12 minutes ago, eball said:

Great, another WR thread.

 

Can’t wait for camp to start.

 

Perhaps it’s another Josh Allen is awesome thread? 
 

All about perspective right?

[Kirby Jackson]

46 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Fixed it for ya!

I’ll stay out of this one because I’ve said my piece on this many times. Are we now questioning the validity of PFF? While we might not always agree with them, we can’t act like they don’t have credibility because we don’t like the data. All 32 NFL teams use their data. We can argue that receivers not getting open didn’t play a role in Josh’s inaccuracy down the field. We can’t argue that the people producing the data aren’t credible.

Edited 5 hours ago by Kirby Jackson

[oldmanfan]

6 minutes ago, DJB said:

I guess many just want to continue to bury their heads in the sand and hope the problem goes away? 
 

WR is still an ongoing issue and it will

continue to be one until it’s fixed 

Yep.  Our offense really sucked last year.

[MJS]

I'm having trouble making conclusions from that huge cluster. Maybe they could average it out per team or something.

[The Firebaugh Kid]

Wasn’t a problem when Diggy was here. Couple other examples: 98 yarder to Davis, several to John Brown…. I think it’s a shift in defensive philosophy that’s interfering with his confidence in letting it go sometimes. Everybody’s playing that damn deep shell.

[MasterStrategist]

30 minutes ago, DJB said:

I guess many just want to continue to bury their heads in the sand and hope the problem goes away? 
 

WR is still an ongoing issue and it will

continue to be one until it’s fixed 

Kincaid wasn't open enough by 5 yards, next time better be 10...need more separation.

 

Josh just isnt that great at deep ball accuracy.  Let's just be honest there.  He's missed several throws over the years, with a LOT of separation. 

 

He's also made some absolute dimes on the run, that only he could do.  WR separation isnt the issue though IMO, on deep balls.

 

 

[Pete]

27 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Yep.  Our offense really sucked last year.

When it counted, yes it did

It’s good to have data to back up what I see every game.  It’s Emperors New Clothes

[Gregg]

41 minutes ago, DJB said:

I guess many just want to continue to bury their heads in the sand and hope the problem goes away? 
 

WR is still an ongoing issue and it will

continue to be one until it’s fixed 

 

The offense with the current WR group has proven to be a good offense. While an upgrade at WR would be welcome, Beane did the right thing in going all in to fix the defense this off-season as that is the real issue for the Bills not getting to the Super Bowl.

[Pete]

Diggs is on the slow side of that graph too.  It’s been far too long to give Josh a speed WR.  It’s obvious to me, and a few other astute posters, that a speed WR would make Bills offense much, much better 

[whorlnut]

I think it has more to do with his rocket arm than anything. He doesn’t lob the ball enough because he can throw on a straight line so effortlessly.  IMO, that’s why they wanted Coleman in the draft. He’s a contested catch guy. He needs to put more touch on his deep throws and the rest will take care of itself. 

[oldmanfan]

25 minutes ago, Pete said:

When it counted, yes it did

It’s good to have data to back up what I see every game.  It’s Emperors New Clothes

One pass.  I believe we scored more points than any other team last offseason.  But you go ahead and keep on with your obsession.  Maybe you can make multiple threads again.

14 minutes ago, Pete said:

Diggs is on the slow side of that graph too.  It’s been far too long to give Josh a speed WR.  It’s obvious to me, and a few other astute posters, that a speed WR would make Bills offense much, much better 

Enter Moore.

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I’ll stay out of this one because I’ve said my piece on this many times. Are we now questioning the validity of PFF? While we might not always agree with them, we can’t act like they don’t have credibility because we don’t like the data. All 32 NFL teams use their data. We can argue that receivers not getting open didn’t play a role in Josh’s inaccuracy down the field. We can’t argue that the people producing the data aren’t credible.

I am trained as a scientist, so when I look at data in a paper or wherever I look back at what is called Materials and Methods.  That is, how was the data collected and analyzed.  So when I look at the Y and X axes of the graph, I’m not sure how they evaluate the depth of separation (Y axis) or grade (X axis).  That would be helpful in interpreting it.

[Jauronimo]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

Diggs is on the slow side of that graph too.  It’s been far too long to give Josh a speed WR.  It’s obvious to me, and a few other astute posters, that a speed WR would make Bills offense much, much better 

We had MVS for a minute last season.  We couldn't figure out what to do with him and Josh was never on the same page with MVS.

[billsfan89]

1 hour ago, DJB said:

I guess many just want to continue to bury their heads in the sand and hope the problem goes away? 
 

WR is still an ongoing issue and it will

continue to be one until it’s fixed 

 

WR could be an issue, there was a reason Cooper was acquired and why the offense even with Coopers relatively low production still got a lot better by having Coopers presence on the outside. That being said Palmer and Moore swapping out for an older Cooper and Mack Hollins isn't a big up or down move and Samuel should be back healthier and could add some supplemental pop to the offense while Keon was a 21 year old rookie whose coming in off a productive rookie year and will be 22 this year with a full year under his belt. I think the coaching staff also expects more pass catching production from Kincaid as he was hurt in 2024. 

 

I would have liked for the Bills to do better than Palmer and Moore at WR but I also see that the Bills really didn't get fortunate when it comes to the draft or free agency. A lot of the WR's that would have been difference makers just didn't hit the market or they were slot WR's. DK was the one I loved but he also came at a steep cap/draft cost that just wasn't something the Bills who desperately needed a defensive talent injection could afford to do short/long term. The Draft was once again not the best draft for non-slot WR's so the Bills at pick 30 and in round 2 had no real good fits. They signed Moore in response to missing out on WR's high up in the draft. 

 

There's reason to think that the Bills may have to again make an in-season move to acquire a WR again. But there's also reason to think they won't have to. 

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, billsfan89 said:

 

WR could be an issue, there was a reason Cooper was acquired and why the offense even with Coopers relatively low production still got a lot better by having Coopers presence on the outside. That being said Palmer and Moore swapping out for an older Cooper and Mack Hollins isn't a big up or down move and Samuel should be back healthier and could add some supplemental pop to the offense while Keon was a 21 year old rookie whose coming in off a productive rookie year and will be 22 this year with a full year under his belt. I think the coaching staff also expects more pass catching production from Kincaid as he was hurt in 2024. 

 

I would have liked for the Bills to do better than Palmer and Moore at WR but I also see that the Bills really didn't get fortunate when it comes to the draft or free agency. A lot of the WR's that would have been difference makers just didn't hit the market or they were slot WR's. DK was the one I loved but he also came at a steep cap/draft cost that just wasn't something the Bills who desperately needed a defensive talent injection could afford to do short/long term. The Draft was once again not the best draft for non-slot WR's so the Bills at pick 30 and in round 2 had no real good fits. They signed Moore in response to missing out on WR's high up in the draft. 

 

There's reason to think that the Bills may have to again make an in-season move to acquire a WR again. But there's also reason to think they won't have to. 

I said before last season, and repeat again before this season, the most important person on the offense other than Josh is Joe Brady.  He did well last year, and his philosophy of mixing the run and pass was very effective.  He needs to continue to improve and tweak things.  He needs to scheme effectively to use his new weapons in Palmer and Moore, and to maximize usage of guys like Coleman’s and Kincaid.

 

To me if there is any personnel thing that concerns me right now it is making sure they have Cook on the field in a proper mindset to have a big year.

[Kirby Jackson]

25 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I am trained as a scientist, so when I look at data in a paper or wherever I look back at what is called Materials and Methods.  That is, how was the data collected and analyzed.  So when I look at the Y and X axes of the graph, I’m not sure how they evaluate the depth of separation (Y axis) or grade (X axis).  That would be helpful in interpreting it.

That’s fair. I’m not an expert in terms of how they define it either. I have a buddy that knows it inside and out. He swears by it. For years, I’ve pushed back and he pretty much tells me why I’m an idiot. Where he lands is, “it isn’t perfect but it’s far better than everything else out there. That’s why all 32 teams use it.” To your point though, it would be nice to know a little more about “it.”
 

In terms of collected, I’ll assume it is from the All 22. I don’t know that to be true but know that’s how teams are breaking down film / game planning. I assume that PFF is using that same criteria. The analyzed part is not as clear to me but some people here know it better (ie @GunnerBill). I think, the gist, is they look at every play, what was supposed to happen and then deem the success. Results don’t really factor into the grade if I remember correctly. Don’t quote me on that though. 

[SoTier]

2 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I’ll stay out of this one because I’ve said my piece on this many times. Are we now questioning the validity of PFF? While we might not always agree with them, we can’t act like they don’t have credibility because we don’t like the data. All 32 NFL teams use their data. We can argue that receivers not getting open didn’t play a role in Josh’s inaccuracy down the field. We can’t argue that the people producing the data aren’t credible.

 

I wasn't questioning the validity of PFF data.   I was questioning the use of it by the OP as ammunition in his crusade.