Keon Coleman success by route - Not pretty

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, Virgil said:

Isn't McConkey more of a slot receiver and only 6'?  To me, McConkey was never on our board because we wanted an outside receiver, with Shakir in the slot.  

 

You are correct, McConkey played primarily from the slot.

[Draconator]

3 hours ago, DJB said:

And for reference here is Ladd who many of us vouched for 

 

 

Coleman needs to step up or Beane massively screwed this one up 

 

Sure. I'm going to believe someone who looks like Pat from Saturday Night Live. I bet Morgan's favorite store is The Gap. 

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Think you nailed it.  Young players need to show improvement year to year.  Coleman is no exception.  I just don’t understand the idea that he can’t improve.

 

It isn't that he can't improve. It's that in round 1 (I know Keon was technically #33 but you take the point) you generally want high floor, high ceiling. By the end of the round those guys, inevitably, have gone so your choice is generally high floor, lower ceiling or low floor, high ceiling. Essnetially do you prefer the safe pick of swing for the fences. 

 

The problem with Keon is he is relatively low floor and lower ceiling. The way he has struggled so far in the pros is exactly the way those of us who didn't love him as a prospect thought he'd struggle. And the ways he has had success - screens and slants near the line of scrimmage 'ball in hand' and yards after catch - are the ways we thought he was most likely to succeed. When I first said as far ago as February last year that I thought he was a big slot at the next level I got a ton of pushback. Matt Harmon said the exact same thing 3 weeks later. So far the evidence supports our opinion.

[Alphadawg7]

Does Coleman need to improve?  Yup, no question.   
 

But:  On a more optimistic note instead of just recycling the same WR and Coleman rants all the time…

When he got hurt week 11 he was on pace for 800-900 yards and 7+ TDs.  And to add more context to that, that is with:

1 - Being a rookie 

2 - Splitting reps and time 

3 - Playing on an offense that saw its QB spread the ball around hitting 9-10 different targets that also ran the ball a lot.  
4 - Played on an offense where due to blow out wins took the pedal off the gas for whole quarters and some halves and stopped forcing the air attack

5 - Missed the first quarter of a blow out win where the offense ran clock second half meaning he played like one or two series and caught his lone target for a long TD

6 - Was used as a blocker a lot because he was punishing people as a blocker, a major reason we didn’t try and bring Mack back.  
 

Yes he has work to do…no doubt.  But some of you I think are MORE invested in him failing or validating your doubts than actually looking for positives to whether he can be a good player for us.  
 

And if you want to know the real issue…I think he is playing out of position and should play the Z and let Palmer play the X.  And if we do that, and I think we might, don’t be surprised to see Keon prove some people wrong.  
 

It’s like if people don’t think he can be a top 5 WR1 he is automatically trash and a whipping boy.  He can be a good player for us, even if it ultimately means it’s as a WR2 at some point.  
 

And this is coming from me who told everyone (and a lot of people argued) that Ladd McConkey was going to be one the best WRs in this draft and I had him as WR5 behind Nabers, Harrison, Odunze, and BTJ.  I even said I don’t know we will take him for what they are looking for but I was terrified KC or Ravens would land him.  
 

I loved Ladd coming out…but let’s not condemn Keon for not being Ladd and just constantly pile on him before he’s stepped on the field for his second year yet.  He’s a Bill…he loves it here…and Josh has publicly said Keon has been hitting him up all offseason on getting better.  So he seems to be putting in the work.

 

But man…the WR rants have been beaten to death around here.  Like what more needs to even be said at this point?  

[BillsFanForever19]

6 hours ago, DJB said:

And for reference here is Ladd who many of us vouched for 

 

 

Coleman needs to step up or Beane massively screwed this one up 

 

5 hours ago, GASabresIUFan said:

Ladd is a player who can play anywhere at any time.  We need good WRs.  Ladd should have the pick.  
 

By the way Ladd is the same height as Diggs and faster.  

 

No, he's not.

 

If he was someone that is that good and just as good on the Outside, he'd be on the Outside full time for the Chargers. Instead, he took 65% of his snaps from the Slot - while having guys like Quentin Johnston and Josh Palmer on the Outside. 

 

And when they lost Palmer on the Outside, did they announce they're moving McConkey over there? No. They spent their 2nd Round Pick on Tre Harris and brought back Mike Williams. Why? Bc McConkey plays his best Football out of the Slot.

 

Ladd McConkey is a great WR. But there's a difference between a True Outside WR and a guy like McConkey. In certain situations, against certain DB's, McConkey can take reps on the Outside. But he's small and has difficulty with bigger, physical CB's. He's not a guy you can expect to take 75% or more on the Outside.

 

We lost Stefon Diggs and Gabe Davis. Two true Outside WR's. And all we had was Slot targets or guys who are primarily slot that you can move around now and again (like McConkey) in Khalil Shakir, Dalton Kincaid, and Curtis Samuel - who was said would be used on the Outside and still worked out of the Slot on 42% of snaps (plus snaps out of the backfield).

 

We couldn't Draft another Slot guy or even another Tweener. We had that covered and that's pretty much all we had. We needed replacements for Diggs and Davis on the Outside full time. McConkey, as good as he is, isn't that. 

 

It's fair to question whether Coleman will be good. But he shouldn't be compared to McConkey. The guys to be 20/20 hindsight over if he isn't would be Xavier Worthy, Xavier Legette, Ja'Lynn Polk, Adonai Mitchell, and Troy Franklin.

Edited 3 hours ago by BillsFanForever19

[Doc Brown]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

Ladd is a slot receiver.   If they drafted him,  then he and Shakir have to share snaps and Shakir had a hard enough time getting his snaps in an offense where they want big boundary WR out blocking.

 

Whether Coleman makes it or not,  McConkey's skillset would have been redundant so they'd still be seeking boundary help.    I do think Coleman would have had himself a much better season catching the dink and dunk stuff from the slot like McConkey got.    The average depth of target disparity was enormous(9.9 to 15.2).

 

It's reminiscent of the tantrums people threw over passing on Creed Humphrey.    They owed Mitch Morse a lot of money,  he was solid,  he was a captain and since centers in the NFL spend a ton of their pass blocking snaps blocking air or just being a help guy.........what you don't want is to pay the top of the market for a non premium position.   That's what the Chiefs are doing now.   Give me Morse and McGovern over that stretch and I'm good.

 

Slot WR is a non-premium position.

Which was the prevailing thought at least on this board to my recollection.  I remember going into round 2 thinking Adonai Mitchell made the most sense at pick 33 because he was a faster guy who played on the outside who had a chance at developing into a WR1.  I was even prepared for Franklin.  I definitely didn't expect Coleman given Beane's comments in the past on what he learned about the WR's Josh excelled with.  I hope Coleman develops into a true outside weapon but his rookie year was exactly what I expected.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Doc Brown said:

Which was the prevailing thought at least on this board to my recollection.  I remember going into round 2 thinking Adonai Mitchell made the most sense at pick 33 because he was a faster guy who played on the outside who had a chance at developing into a WR1.  I was even prepared for Franklin.  I definitely didn't expect Coleman given Beane's comments in the past on what he learned about the WR's Josh excelled with.  I hope Coleman develops into a true outside weapon but his rookie year was exactly what I expected.

 

Nor did I but as @gonzo1105 has said he fits a lot of the criteria the Bills look for - a good RAS profile (despite the speed issue), size, long arms, young, had him in on a 30 visit etc.

[Doc Brown]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Nor did I but as @gonzo1105 has said he fits a lot of the criteria the Bills look for - a good RAS profile (despite the speed issue), size, long arms, young, had him in on a 30 visit etc.

True and I guess at that point in the draft you have to bet on traits.  McConkey would've been an even bigger head scratcher at that spot and we would've spent months debating whether he could play on the outside if Beane drafted him.  Lol.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Doc Brown said:

True and I guess at that point in the draft you have to bet on traits.  McConkey would've been an even bigger head scratcher at that spot and we would've spent months debating whether he could play on the outside if Beane drafted him.  Lol.

 

Yea. McConkey is a slot receiver. He is darn good but he is a slot receiver. Forget the fact that the Bills already had one.... I just never love the value of taking those guys round 1. Unles they are true elite guys (and maybe Ladd is) the positional value is hard to overlook.

[LABILLBACKER]

3 hours ago, GASabresIUFan said:

By the way, Beane knows he blew the Coleman pick.  (40 4.61)

 

Since he made that pick, all the skill players on both sides of the ball have speed. 

 

At WR were have added Palmer (4.52 @ 6'1 210), Moore (4.35), and Prather (4.46),   

AT DB & S: Bishop (4.45), Forest (4.41), Hancock (4.42), Hairston (4.28), Strong (4.50)

 

 

At this point I don't have alot of faith that Keon becomes a WR1 or WR2.  His only viable contribution based on his lack of speed seems to be the deep jump ball.  And if he's so dominant at the gauntlet,  why not use him more on slants or crosses?  Alot of eyes will be on Coleman and Kincaid this fall.

[Doc Brown]

7 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

At this point I don't have alot of faith that Keon becomes a WR1 or WR2.  His only viable contribution based on his lack of speed seems to be the deep jump ball.  And if he's so dominant at the gauntlet,  why not use him more on slants or crosses?  Alot of eyes will be on Coleman and Kincaid this fall.

I don't know but why are we talking about WR?  We scored over 30 points in eight straight games last year.  This isn't fantasy football.  Talking about WR is one of the dumbest things we should be doing right now.

[Richard Noggin]

24 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

Which was the prevailing thought at least on this board to my recollection.  I remember going into round 2 thinking Adonai Mitchell made the most sense at pick 33 because he was a faster guy who played on the outside who had a chance at developing into a WR1.  I was even prepared for Franklin.  I definitely didn't expect Coleman given Beane's comments in the past on what he learned about the WR's Josh excelled with.  I hope Coleman develops into a true outside weapon but his rookie year was exactly what I expected.

 

20 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Nor did I but as @gonzo1105 has said he fits a lot of the criteria the Bills look for - a good RAS profile (despite the speed issue), size, long arms, young, had him in on a 30 visit etc.

 

With respect to outside WRs, Beane has shown a persistent affinity for every draftnik's most dreaded profile: the long, strong, physical, contested catch guy. Kelvin Benjamin, Andre Holmes, Duke Williams, Gabe Davis, Justin Shorter, Mack Hollins, Keon Coleman, etc. There is a role for these guys, but with the Bills, it's such an obvious role of motioning inside to run block or run a slant, fade, or maybe a shallow crosser/intermediate flag a la mesh concept...

 

Offense seemed to SHINE with smaller, faster, better separators (and different OC). Maybe that was a specific "era" in the NFL, but Allen sure seemed to flourish with guys who got OPEN. Imagine that lol.

[Doc Brown]

10 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

 

With respect to outside WRs, Beane has shown a persistent affinity for every draftnik's most dreaded profile: the long, strong, physical, contested catch guy. Kelvin Benjamin, Andre Holmes, Duke Williams, Gabe Davis, Justin Shorter, Mack Hollins, Keon Coleman, etc. There is a role for these guys, but with the Bills, it's such an obvious role of motioning inside to run block or run a slant, fade, or maybe a shallow crosser/intermediate flag a la mesh concept...

 

Offense seemed to SHINE with smaller, faster, better separators (and different OC). Maybe that was a specific "era" in the NFL, but Allen sure seemed to flourish with guys who got OPEN. Imagine that lol.

I think Brady's system is more dependent on having an X physical WR2 who can block and has decent ball skills despite not being the best separator.  The problem is we don't have a 2020 Diggs on the other side giving D-coordinators nightmares taking the pressure off Coleman.  I just wish somehow there was a guy available this Offseason that we could've hypothetically traded for without having to give up a 1st round pick.

[BillytheKid]

I’ve already said it in another thread. Coleman is the receiver fighting for the final roster spot. 
 

Shakir, Palmer, Moore, Samuels are all making it. 5th spot will be between Coleman and whoever else. 
 

Beane and McDermott were not happy with him. He is not a lock to make the team as many seem to think IMO. Unless he really really makes a jump from last year. 

Edited 4 hours ago by BillytheKid

[Alphadawg7]

45 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

 

With respect to outside WRs, Beane has shown a persistent affinity for every draftnik's most dreaded profile: the long, strong, physical, contested catch guy. Kelvin Benjamin, Andre Holmes, Duke Williams, Gabe Davis, Justin Shorter, Mack Hollins, Keon Coleman, etc. There is a role for these guys, but with the Bills, it's such an obvious role of motioning inside to run block or run a slant, fade, or maybe a shallow crosser/intermediate flag a la mesh concept...

 

Offense seemed to SHINE with smaller, faster, better separators (and different OC). Maybe that was a specific "era" in the NFL, but Allen sure seemed to flourish with guys who got OPEN. Imagine that lol.

 

No disrespect…But that really isn’t a fair list to show he has an affinity or type IMHO.  Only Gabe and Keon were drafted to be potential long term starters and were when we had no size in the WR room.  Mack was a bandaid to fill dirty work for the void Gabe left in a season we had $31M dead cap at WR alone.

 

Holmes was a ST player, Duke was a CFL nothing invested PS player, so was Shorter.  And KB was added midseason of a year we weren’t supposed to make the playoffs when we suddenly had a chance to break the drought.  And there were no other WRs traded, so it’s not like he had his pick and chose KB.  

 

Almost all the actual relevant WRs to play real minutes here were smaller.  We had John Brown…then he invested a first and a 4th in Diggs and gave him big money multiple times.  He added guys like Sanders, Samuel, and Shakir to play outside or mix in some outside.  Not

to mention the rest of our WR room had guys like Cole, McKenzie, Crowder, Harty, etc.  
 

So no offense, but I don’t think his type is what you think it is.  Yes went after size and toughness when Gabe left because all we had was a small WR room.  We use blocking at the WR position a lot, and it’s one of the reasons we originally drafted Gabe because we had no size.  Just like Keon, we had no size.  It’s not a “type” it was a hole in the roster when we added Mack/Keon last year and Gabe before them.  Our WR room was known as

midgets prior to Gabe getting here even.  
 

Beane does have a type though IMHO…his type is, and has been, balance.  Right or wrong, that’s his real type IMO.  And he has added some influence and second layer into his type lately too which is toughness as we were not physical enough across the table, not just at WR.

 

And I personally think last year was Allen’s best year playing QB, not the years throwing to small WRs and having the most turnovers in the NFL days.  Again, just my opinion, but I think more people believe 2024 was his best season than don’t.

 

Im personally excited to see what year 2 of Brady’s offense brings and how this team comes together.  

[ganesh]

5 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Coleman needs to improve, as most rookies do going into their second year.  Beane has said this especially with respect to his play after coming back from injury.  Why assume he won’t?

The Draft is a crapshoot. You win some and lose some

[MasterStrategist]

Always find it comical, half this board has the patience of my 7 yr old.  

 

Coleman wasn't even drinking age when we drafted him LY...cue the Edmunds jokes.

 

People need to learn patience and very few on here see the traits as to why Beane drafted him, and can project those.  Now will Coleman hit that ceiling, up to him.

 

But he has put on more muscle, looks quicker this offseason.  Based on how we use him (Adot 15.2), we needed him improve his strenghth at route breaks and mainly downfield at the catch point.  

 

He's a freak athlete, I could careless about his forty.  He gets stronger at the catch point, that won't matter.  He's also one of the WRs Josh coveted out of last years class.

 

Point being, player progression year 1 to year 2 is a big deal.  James Cook, Terrel Bernard, Shakir, Spencer Brown...list goes on.  This team has a knack for getting year 2 jumps, Kincaid aside.

 

Give this kid a chance before you write him off - he showed glimpses last year, has been working his tail off this offseason.

[RobbRiddick]

Just want to say hi to everyone in September or October who come back to bump this thread when Coleman scores a big TD or gets a 100 yard game. How are you all doing? Can you believe another Chiefs player has been arrested and the Jets are winless? 

[LABILLBACKER]

 

2 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

I don't know but why are we talking about WR?  We scored over 30 points in eight straight games last year.  This isn't fantasy football.  Talking about WR is one of the dumbest things we should be doing right now.

The reason it gets constantly and justifiably brought up is the fact that we are still somewhat deficient in our wr room. I like the speed additions that BB brought in with Moore/Palmer. We had 40 tds scored last season from non wrs. So the contribution table of that 8 game streak of 30 pts is a little skewed.  On the biggest drive of our season in KC, James was out and our receiving corps did not clutch up.  That's a problem. 

 

We're all rooting for Coleman and patience is necessary.  I give every Bills player for the last 60 years at least 3 full seasons to prove yourself.  That's why this is such a critical year for Dalton.  As @Robb Riddick said we could all have egg on our face?  But the Bills still desperately need to find that fast twitch replacement for Diggs. A wr DC's have to gameplan.  And we haven't done that yet. No one is gameplanning for Coleman & Kincaid right now.  That's a problem. 

Edited 2 hours ago by LABILLBACKER

[balln]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea. McConkey is a slot receiver. He is darn good but he is a slot receiver. Forget the fact that the Bills already had one.... I just never love the value of taking those guys round 1. Unles they are true elite guys (and maybe Ladd is) the positional value is hard to overlook.

Then maybe the pick should have been Ladd. Don’t resign Shakir. Then there’s more $ for other players or James cook. It just gets back to roster building for me. You pick the best player available because the dominos that fall year to year either way have a big impact. 
 

instead beane picked based on need. Again.
 

time will tell. But Coleman is going to be worse gave Davis type target black hole if the bills keep playing him outside.