The Worthy Trade Keeps Looking Worse and Worse

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

5 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

It’s more of a function of Johnston looking like the 1st rounder than a JAG. Ladd may never be a star but can be a rich man’s Edelman. He’s much more explosive than most slots. To your point though, he hasn’t done much yet this year. 

 

I just feel like between a high pick for kincaid, and shakir being a really good player - there was no need for a primary slot WR in the top of the 2nd round.  

[Kirby Jackson]

25 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

I just feel like between a high pick for kincaid, and shakir being a really good player - there was no need for a primary slot WR in the top of the 2nd round.  

Totally fair. I think that Ladd can be more. Both Keon and Ladd are better in the slot than the outside. I do think that an outside WR was the priority. Either way, there were better options and worse options which is why this conversation will never end lol.

[boyst]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Totally fair. I think that Ladd can be more. Both Keon and Ladd are better in the slot than the outside. I do think that an outside WR was the priority. Either way, there were better options and worse options which is why this conversation will never end lol.

I'd rather have a second slot guy, a big slot than I would a TE when we had Knox and others who could block.

 

Jackson Hawes is gonna make it awkward next year with Knox, Kincaid, and Hawes all there. 

[Ray Stonada]

Hate to say this but so far Worthy vs. Coleman is a victory for the Chiefs.

 

If I could go back to that draft and have Worthy to stretch the field for us AND keep him from going to Chiefs... nuff said.

[Malazan]

15 minutes ago, Ray Stonada said:

Hate to say this but so far Worthy vs. Coleman is a victory for the Chiefs.

 

If I could go back to that draft and have Worthy to stretch the field for us AND keep him from going to Chiefs... nuff said.

 

what?

[Matt_In_NH]

27 minutes ago, boyst said:

I'd rather have a second slot guy, a big slot than I would a TE when we had Knox and others who could block.

 

Jackson Hawes is gonna make it awkward next year with Knox, Kincaid, and Hawes all there. 

Awkward how?   They use them all.   Looking at his contract he will likely have to take a pay cut or get released.  Can’t have a 17 million cap hit from Knox.   If he wants to stay he will have to take a crappy for him extension. 

Edited Monday at 07:27 PM by Matt_In_NH

[Ray Stonada]

3 minutes ago, Malazan said:

 

what?

 

If we had picked him instead of giving up the pick to the Chiefs, we would have him and he wouldn't be on the Chiefs. Look how they struggled without him. 

[SageAgainstTheMachine]

It’s really fun to re-litigate this trade every week.

[folz]

6 hours ago, boater said:

The shoulda coulda would haves hindsight people. The Worthy trade sucks and our draft pick trade netted the Chief's Mahomes. Frick'en Beane.

 

First of all, Beane had nothing to do with passing on Mahomes (that was McD/Whaley). But, yes, let's talk about hindsight with Mahomes. Easy to say now the Bills should have drafted Mahomes or not traded K.C. that pick. But, in 2017, we had a first year head coach who didn't even have a good assessment of his own roster yet. We had a lame duck GM, who was about to be fired. At the time, 2017 was not considered a great draft for QBs. Some people felt that K.C. reached for Mahomes at 10 (he was not expected to be as good as he's been, or at least get there as fast as he did by many at the time). And 2018 was already shaping up (again, at the time) to be a generational QB class, as good as 1983. It made all of the sense in the world at the time for McD to wait on his QB. Wait until he knew his roster and organization, wait until he had a GM he trusts and had time to scout all of the QBs, wait for the better QB class, etc. I think you are looking back with hindsight if you think the Bills should have drafted Mahomes.

 

I tried to follow all of the trade deals and subsequent trades of those picks and this was basically what I found as the outcome of the two trades (draft picks in parentheses):

 

Chiefs got: Mahomes (10), Worthy (28), CB Jaden Hicks (133), OC C.J. Hanson (248).

 

Bills got: Tremaine Edmunds (16), Tredavious White (27), Keon Coleman (32), Zay Jones (37), Dion Dawkins (63), DeWayne Carter (95), and OT Travis Clayton (221).

The Bills also had to give up two 5th rounders in the process: picks 154 and 156.

 

So, picks 10, 28, 154, and 156 netted us the above 7 players. Sure Zay was a bad pick and Tremaine never quite reached the level of his draft status (though a solid player), but I'd say we did ok. No picks will ever match the value of Mahomes, obviously, but considering we were still able to get Josh the next year, I'd say things worked out for the best. I personally would take Josh 100 times out of 100 times over Mahomes, not because I think Josh is better than Mahomes, but because he just fits Buffalo so perfectly (and I like him/his personality better---though Pat seems like a good guy too).

 

Time to let the whole Mahomes trade go...everything happened they way it was meant to and our day in the Sun will come.

 

 

4 hours ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Bills fans really take running the ball for granted it’s straight up bizarre.  You need players like Coleman to run the ball effectively...

 

Both teams got the guy they wanted and the bills got a free third round pick for doing so 

 

Couldn't agree more with everything you've said Generic (even though I didn't quote all of it). But the bold statement is the key that some people just can't get. Both players are good and each team got the guy they wanted. We didn't want Worthy for our offense (otherwise we would have just picked him where we were rather than trading back, and obviously K.C. wanted Worthy over Keon, as they picked Worthy with Keon still on the board). This was a win-win for both teams. And it's not like Worthy is going to be the one player that prevents us from beating K.C.

 

 

3 hours ago, soflabillsfan1 said:

Those stats aren't even correct and leave out rushing.  Worthy had 19rec for 287 yds and 3 Tds in the playoffs.  Keon had 3 recs for 22 yds and 0 Tds

 

Well, yes, let's talk about the playoffs for a moment. Before garbage time in the Super Bowl (11 quarters of playoff games), Worthy was averaging 53.45 yards and 0.36 TDs per playoff game (and that includes the 29-yard reception in the Bills game that definitely should have been called an INT or an incompletion---but the refs gave it to Worthy). He wasn't killing it all playoffs. Then, with 2:33 minutes left in the third quarter of the Super Bowl, with the Eagles winning 34-0, Worthy hits some big plays. Let me repeat that, the game was 34-0 in favor of the Eagles (34-6 going into the 4th quarter) when Worthy went off. Do you think maybe the Eagles had let up a bit at that point? Do you think Worthy still has that outburst if it's a one-score game at that point? I'm not knocking him for his SB production (it was still impressive and I'd be excited about it as a Chiefs fan as hopefully, things to come), I'm just saying I don't think you can use last year's playoffs as any kind of arbiter for these two players because Keon was in a weird place in our offense after coming back from injury and with Mack playing well in his absence (and Curtis Samuel getting healthy), and because the majority of Worthy's stats came in garbage time of a blowout.

 

To be clear with their career stats thus far:

 

Regular Season:

Worthy (19 games):  64 recs on 107 targets for 721 yards and 6 TDs, 11.3 yards/rec, 6.74 yards/target. 142 rushing yards with 3 TDs.

Coleman (17 gms):    46 recs on 79 targets for 759 yards and 5 TDs, 16.5 yards/rec, 9.6 yards/target. 8 rushing yards with 0 TDs.

 

Total yards and TDs (reg season): Worthy 863 and 9 TDs; Keon 767 and 5 TDs (Worthy has played two more games than Keon and has 50 more touches).

 

Total yards and TDs (reg season and playoffs): Worthy 1,150 yards and 12 TDs; Keon 789 yards and 5 TDs. (Worthy had 66 more touches than Keon.)

 

Total yards and TDs (reg season and playoffs, minus SB garbage time): Worthy 1,002 yards and 10 TDs; Keon 789 yards and 5 TDs (Worthy with 60 more touches than Keon.)

 

Like I said, it seems like a win/win scenario for both teams, imo. But either way, it will probably take a couple more seasons to make any true assessment, in relation to comparing the two players.

 

[Alphadawg7]

14 minutes ago, Offside Number 76 said:

 

Oh come on.  Like this is anything close to an honest attempt at a discussion.

 

No disrespect - but - not really sure how its not part of the conversation?  A major concern about Worthy coming out, and still is now, was his small frame holding up to high volume work in the NFL.  Pretty doubtful Keon misses time if he had run into Kelce week 1.  "Availability is the best ability" is an entrenched mantra in the NFL for a reason.  So to act like it has no value, especially during a stretch the Chiefs went 1-2 and are looking up in their division and well behind in the seeding race in the AFC right now seems unreasonable.

 

Not to mention, this was just 1 game he has appeared in, and against the same team Keon had a big game and was a core reason why we won it.  Not to mention, Worthy has way more target opportunities in KC right now with the lack of weapons there due to a lesser WR room, lesser OL, lesser RB room and their actual best WR suspended.  

 

So no disrespect, but feels like the pro Worthy crowd only seems to be interested in discussing things that provide confirmation bias for preexisting opinions.  

 

What is most interesting is how few people seem so shut down to the idea that BOTH teams got the guy that fits best with what they wanted, needed, and the offenses they run.  KC wasn't looking for a WR1, they wanted a deep threat and didn't need size either with Kelce and Rice there amongst others.  Bills were looking for more a physical and bigger target given we lacked size on our WR room when we drafted Keon and were in the beginning of a full retooling of the group.  

 

 

[Ray Stonada]

I am pro Bills and pro Keon. But watching Worthy against the Ravens, he gave them a big spark. Maybe I'm overreacting to that.

[boyst]

17 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

Awkward how?   They use them all.   Looking at his contract he will likely have to take a pay cut or get released.  Can’t have a 17 million cap hit from Knox.   If he wants to stay he will have to take a crappy for him extension. 

Asking someone to take a pay cut isn't easy lol

But I agree

[Draconator]

2 minutes ago, Ray Stonada said:

I am pro Bills and pro Keon. But watching Worthy against the Ravens, he gave them a big spark. Maybe I'm overreacting to that.

Look at what the Chiefs, Bills, and Lions did to Baltimore's defense? Worthy coming back is a overreaction. 

[Cray51]

33 minutes ago, Ray Stonada said:

Hate to say this but so far Worthy vs. Coleman is a victory for the Chiefs.

 

If I could go back to that draft and have Worthy to stretch the field for us AND keep him from going to Chiefs... nuff said.

Worthy career stats:

64 catches

721 yards

6 touchdowns

longest reception: 54 yards

 

Coleman career stats:

46 catches

759 yards

5 touchdowns

longest reception: 64 yards

 

Folks are creating things out of thin air.  Coleman has been very comparable to Worthy, while having the longer reception between the two, and averaging a higher yards per catch.

 

I get it, Worthy fast!  But in reality, Coleman has shown to be quite solid at those 15-20 yard routes from the boundary.

[Alphadawg7]

4 minutes ago, Cray51 said:

Worthy career stats:

64 catches

721 yards

6 touchdowns

longest reception: 54 yards

 

Coleman career stats:

46 catches

759 yards

5 touchdowns

longest reception: 64 yards

 

Folks are creating things out of thin air.  Coleman has been very comparable to Worthy, while having the longer reception between the two, and averaging a higher yards per catch.

 

I get it, Worthy fast!  But in reality, Coleman has shown to be quite solid at those 15-20 yard routes from the boundary.

 

A good post that will get glossed over because people are not willing to look at facts that don't support preexisting opinions or bias.   

 

The silliest part about all this is that for most people, they can't wrap their heads around possibility each team got the guy that fit what their team needed, was looking for, and fits their offense best.   

[Einstein's Dog]

12 minutes ago, boyst said:

Asking someone to take a pay cut isn't easy lol

But I agree

Asking Knox to take market price is part of Beane's job.  And from what I glean from the temperament of Knox I think he would accept market rates.  Knox seems like he would like to be a Bill for life.

 

And this understated quality, IMO, can be extended to Coleman - and never would be with Worthy.  

[Success]

26 minutes ago, Ray Stonada said:

I am pro Bills and pro Keon. But watching Worthy against the Ravens, he gave them a big spark. Maybe I'm overreacting to that.

 

Well, looking at our own game against the Ravens - wouldn't you say Coleman gave us as big of a spark?  He was outstanding in that game.

 

[mannc]

37 minutes ago, Ray Stonada said:

 

If we had picked him instead of giving up the pick to the Chiefs, we would have him and he wouldn't be on the Chiefs. Look how they struggled without him. 

I don’t know how anyone can dispute this.  It’s clear that Worthy is very important piece of the Chiefs’ offense…

[Success]

Just now, mannc said:

I don’t know how anyone can dispute this.  It’s clear that Worthy is very important piece of the Chiefs’ offense…

 

But do you pick a guy who isn't quite the guy you want just to keep that guy from landing w/ a rival?

 

[RobbRiddick]

2 hours ago, Success said:

 

This whole discussion is an excellent microcosm of what the sports commentary world has become.  We almost need a better term than "hot take" - saying a take is hot still implies that there is any thought involved.

 

I don't think this thread will ever go away.  It will get bumped according to what you wrote above - from people on both sides of the question, depending on how Sunday went for both players.

 

I watched a clip of that Greeny show earlier on YouTube. He asked Damian Woody "Can the Ravens win the Super Bowl?" Woody instantly shook his head "nah, they're finished".

 

Okay, I don't trust Lamar Jackson in big games and their defense has been terrible so far, but they're finished seems a bit much to me. I mean last week the Chiefs were finished to a lot of people. I said then let's not get ahead of ourselves and make the same mistake everyone used to make with the Pats, no of course the Chiefs are suddenly all the experts' picks to get back to the Super Bowl again.

 

I made the mistake of looking at Twitter last night and the first thing I saw was a shot of Allen's int with a Ravens fan saying "see, he sucks". So unless Josh Allen plays 17 games and throws zero picks, he sucks. The extreme views on football have become like political commentary, if you want to be noticed just shout louder. Any mildly sane view is quickly drowned out by the sounds of screaming that's pouring out of the asylum windows

3 hours ago, PastaJoe said:

He’s had less yards combined (91) in the last 3 games than he had against the Ravens. Is he not capable of being a consistent contributor or don’t the coaches believe he can? 🤔

He's finished