The criticism of Josh Allen

[Beck Water]

3 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Designed scramble would be an oxymoron one would think.

 

That was certainly my belief.  I think the Bills "design" scrambles in the same sense that they "design" scramble drill routes - the WR have instructions they execute after the QB is flushed out of the pocket, in order to be "QB friendly", the OLmen have instructions on how to continue to block in the same circumstances.  But they aren't exactly "designed plays".

[Governor]

On 3/31/2024 at 8:45 AM, Dillenger4 said:

Josh is a stud at QB. He is top 5 no doubt.

But the "other" fans in the NFL think he is rough around the edges. His accuracy shows, at times, that he is inconsistent which we all see. He can't hit the long ball with "touch" is another comment I hear a lot. And he doesn't see the field as well as other top QB's, hence the missed open WR's we see in many games. But he can ball! And I'll take that all day.

Now just win one baby!

Touch on screens and dump-offs and long ball accuracy are definitely his biggest weaknesses. I don’t think he will ever fix it. He throws the ball too hard.

On 3/31/2024 at 8:45 AM, Dillenger4 said:

 

Edited April 2 by Governor

[Don Otreply]

10 hours ago, bills11 said:

Josh's playoff numbers are historical it's a team game..he has 21 tds and 4 int in his playoff careers ..for reference Roethlisberger had 36 tds 28int peyton 40-25.. he's a historic level qb the only reason he hasn't won a superbowl is the defence. People forget how the pats defence carried brady at the beggining of his career 

Agree,  The defense scheme has pretty much failed every post season, yet we continue to roll out the same soft zone / contain style defense annually, at some point one would think that some modifications for the post season are in order. 
 

I as well think Shaw66 in correct in how he describes how Josh can be a better QB for the team, that does not mean it Josh’s fault all the time, it just means he could stand to improve an aspect of his craft, just as our post season defense could stand improvement…,  when a team is good like the Bills, it’s the incremental improvements that will put them over the top, jmo. 

[oldmanfan]

38 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

Agree,  The defense scheme has pretty much failed every post season, yet we continue to roll out the same soft zone / contain style defense annually, at some point one would think that some modifications for the post season are in order. 
 

I as well think Shaw66 in correct in how he describes how Josh can be a better QB for the team, that does not mean it Josh’s fault all the time, it just means he could stand to improve an aspect of his craft, just as our post season defense could stand improvement…,  when a team is good like the Bills, it’s the incremental improvements that will put them over the top, jmo. 

Well stated.

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

58 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

Agree,  The defense scheme has pretty much failed every post season, yet we continue to roll out the same soft zone / contain style defense annually, at some point one would think that some modifications for the post season are in order. 
 

I as well think Shaw66 in correct in how he describes how Josh can be a better QB for the team, that does not mean it Josh’s fault all the time, it just means he could stand to improve an aspect of his craft, just as our post season defense could stand improvement…,  when a team is good like the Bills, it’s the incremental improvements that will put them over the top, jmo. 

It’s pretty ridiculous. The Chiefs have been pretty inconsistent the entire season, but moved the ball at will against us. Only putting up 17 against the Ravens. So give Josh Baltimore’s defense and we would’ve won decisively. 

[CincyBillsFan]

14 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Quit with your hero worship and read what people are actually saying.

 

The issue here is when you deny the words you used, it is impossible to have a reasonable discussion.  

If you want to have a "reasonable discussion" maybe you should stop calling it "hero worship" when some of us disagree with your takes on Allen?

 

Look, I don't think there is much Allen can do going forward to improve his physical tools.  IMO the best use of his time the first couple of months after the season ends is exactly what he appears to be doing:  relaxing and decompressing from football. 

 

I also think Shaw has identified the one place where Allen could significantly improve and that's in his decision making.  But experience will go a long way towards fixing this.  Where I disagree with Shaw is that I don't think this deficiency is as important as he does. I believe that Allen is already playing at a level, including decision making, that would win the Bills Super Bowls if the coaching and play from other top Bills talents matched Allen's play in the playoffs.

 

I sense that you don't like Allen's style of play.  Here's your quote abut Favre from above:  "But I think one can argue Favre cost his team championships with his gunslinger approach."  I disagree with this because you are saying that Favre would have been better if he changed who he fundamentally was.  IMO he would not have been better and maybe would have had a mediocre at best career if you had your way.  From what I can tell you want the same thing for Allen. 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Professor Worthington said:

Any criticism of Josh Allen or acknowledgement of such has got to stop.  Those who do it look uninformed and clownish, or they are desperate for attention and clicks.  
 

He is an elite QB with generational talent who will be enshrined in Canton one day.  Can he improve?  Sure, we all have opportunities to improve, but his performances are not behind the Bills’ failure to reach the SB.

 

Against the Texans we had a special teams TD reversed and a defensive meltdown in OT.  13 seconds is on the defense and coaching.  This year, thank you Tyler Bass and Stefon Diggs.  17 isn’t the problem.  It’s the 54 other players and coaches that deserve the criticism.

Well said. 

 

When someone like Shaw or Beck point out areas that Allen could work on they do it from the POV of being Bills fans and wanting the team to get better.  They also do it without malice aimed at Allen and in full recognition that the path to a Bills Super Bowl might be more likely achieved if Allen tweaked his game then if other parts of the Bills organization pulled their fair share. These are all debatable points but IMO form the basis for an honest, positive discussion about Allen and his play.

 

[oldmanfan]

5 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

If you want to have a "reasonable discussion" maybe you should stop calling it "hero worship" when some of us disagree with your takes on Allen?

 

Look, I don't think there is much Allen can do going forward to improve his physical tools.  IMO the best use of his time the first couple of months after the season ends is exactly what he appears to be doing:  relaxing and decompressing from football. 

 

I also think Shaw has identified the one place where Allen could significantly improve and that's in his decision making.  But experience will go a long way towards fixing this.  Where I disagree with Shaw is that I don't think this deficiency is as important as he does. I believe that Allen is already playing at a level, including decision making, that would win the Bills Super Bowls if the coaching and play from other top Bills talents matched Allen's play in the playoffs.

 

I sense that you don't like Allen's style of play.  Here's your quote abut Favre from above:  "But I think one can argue Favre cost his team championships with his gunslinger approach."  I disagree with this because you are saying that Favre would have been better if he changed who he fundamentally was.  IMO he would not have been better and maybe would have had a mediocre at best career if you had your way.  From what I can tell you want the same thing for Allen. 

 

 

 

 

Well said. 

 

When someone like Shaw or Beck point out areas that Allen could work on they do it from the POV of being Bills fans and wanting the team to get better.  They also do it without malice aimed at Allen and in full recognition that the path to a Bills Super Bowl might be more likely achieved if Allen tweaked his game then if other parts of the Bills organization pulled their fair share. These are all debatable points but IMO form the basis for an honest, positive discussion about Allen and his play.

 

I think Favre is the floor for Allen.  Allen has better physical talent and if he can add to that some of the mental aspect of a Montana he can be the best ever.

[Professor Worthington]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

So as Shaw and I have said, he is a great QB that can continue to improve on the mental side of his game.  Is that kind of commentary allowed or do we have to stop because you say we must?

Spending time picking apart Josh’s flaws is like doing the same for Steph Curry and not scrutinizing how Draymond, Klay Thompson, Steve Kerr, etc  are playing/coaching to their potentials.  It’s not where the spotlight should shine.

 

The only way the Bills win it all is by improving JA’s supporting cast.  If all else is the same and we see incremental improvements in Josh, there is no Lombardi.  One man alone, no matter how talented, cannot win a championship.  I think we’ve proven that.

[oldmanfan]

5 minutes ago, Professor Worthington said:

Spending time picking apart Josh’s flaws is like doing the same for Steph Curry and not scrutinizing how Draymond, Klay Thompson, Steve Kerr, etc  are playing/coaching to their potentials.  It’s not where the spotlight should shine.

 

The only way the Bills win it all is by improving JA’s supporting cast.  If all else is the same and we see incremental improvements in Josh, there is no Lombardi.  One man alone, no matter how talented, cannot win a championship.  I think we’ve proven that.

I’m still confused.  What can we say on the message board and what can’t we say?

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

2 hours ago, FireChans said:

Um we lose to Patrick Mahomes. He loses to Ryan Tannehill as the 1 seed and throws a 99 yard pick six vs us. 
 

At this point in their careers, Allen has better playoff numbers and far more playoff wins.

 

If you polled random NFL fans that weren’t Bills or Ravens fans about who was a better playoff performer, Allen would win a landslide. It’s actually not close. 

Lamar Jackson is the most overrated QB of this generation. When I say overrated, I am not saying he’s BAD, but he’s not in the same league as Burrow, Mahomes, Allen, or even Herbert. LJ benefits from an elite coaching staff/GM. He’s a juiced up Tyrod Taylor. A game manager w/ some game breaking ability. Take away his running and he’s a fringe starter at best. He’s got a great arm, but is just too inconsistent. Ultimately, a QB’s job is to throw the ball. Allen can chuck it from anywhere and even when he eventually loses some speed, his strength will still allow him to extend plays and maneuver the pocket. Jackson is going into year 7 and I don’t see anything changing, he continuously lets his team down in the playoffs whereas it’s the other way around for Allen. Harbaugh is going to have resurrect the 2000 Raven’s defense in order to win a SB. 

[Professor Worthington]

14 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I’m still confused.  What can we say on the message board and what can’t we say?

Can you understand the difference between a figure of speech and an authoritarian decree?  Since you’re deferring to me for guidance, I guess that means you consider me an authority, and I’m flattered.

[oldmanfan]

14 minutes ago, Professor Worthington said:

Can you understand the difference between a figure of speech and an authoritarian decree?  Since you’re deferring to me for guidance, I guess that means you consider me an authority, and I’m flattered.

So when you say criticism of Josh has to stop you’re not serious.

 

Looking back through this thread it strikes me there is actually agreement on many things:

 

1.  Josh is a great QB.

2.  People can accept that Josh can continue to improve on the mental or processing aspects of his game.

3.  Deficiencies in other team aspects particularly on the defensive side and on coaching need to be improved going forward.

 

[90sBills]

35 minutes ago, Professor Worthington said:

Spending time picking apart Josh’s flaws is like doing the same for Steph Curry and not scrutinizing how Draymond, Klay Thompson, Steve Kerr, etc  are playing/coaching to their potentials.  It’s not where the spotlight should shine.

 

The only way the Bills win it all is by improving JA’s supporting cast.  If all else is the same and we see incremental improvements in Josh, there is no Lombardi.  One man alone, no matter how talented, cannot win a championship.  I think we’ve proven that.

It’s a team game so of course his teammates have to be good to win. But within the parameters of the game he holds the most decision making power. So it’s imperative for him to improve on that aspect regardless of the team around him. It’s useless to have great weapons if he’s making the wrong reads. That’s all most of us are saying.

 

Look at KC this year with terrible receivers. Yet they’ve managed to win it all with Mahomes making the right decisions to maximize their offensive output. That’s where Allen can operate at but he isn’t because the processing and decisions are not there yet. 

[Ya Digg?]

27 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

Lamar Jackson is the most overrated QB of this generation. When I say overrated, I am not saying he’s BAD, but he’s not in the same league as Burrow, Mahomes, Allen, or even Herbert. LJ benefits from an elite coaching staff/GM. He’s a juiced up Tyrod Taylor. A game manager w/ some game breaking ability. Take away his running and he’s a fringe starter at best. He’s got a great arm, but is just too inconsistent. Ultimately, a QB’s job is to throw the ball. Allen can chuck it from anywhere and even when he eventually loses some speed, his strength will still allow him to extend plays and maneuver the pocket. Jackson is going into year 7 and I don’t see anything changing, he continuously lets his team down in the playoffs whereas it’s the other way around for Allen. Harbaugh is going to have resurrect the 2000 Raven’s defense in order to win a SB. 

Sorry but you lost me once you mentioned Herbert. The guy is talented but Lamar has done so much more than Herbert has at this point 

[90sBills]

6 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

So when you say criticism of Josh has to stop you’re not serious.

 

Looking back through this thread it strikes me there is actually agreement on many things:

 

1.  Josh is a great QB.

2.  People can accept that Josh can continue to improve on the mental or processing aspects of his game.

3.  Deficiencies in other team aspects particularly on the defensive side and on coaching need to be improved going forward.

 

Well summarized! The Allen discussions always get cloudy because some people cannot bear the thought of him having anything to do with the Bills failing. So even the most truthful criticism of him will be met with revolt and all the other points get tossed to the side even though those points are agreeable by all. 

[Professor Worthington]

29 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

So when you say criticism of Josh has to stop you’re not serious.

 

Looking back through this thread it strikes me there is actually agreement on many things:

 

1.  Josh is a great QB.

2.  People can accept that Josh can continue to improve on the mental or processing aspects of his game.

3.  Deficiencies in other team aspects particularly on the defensive side and on coaching need to be improved going forward.

 

Yes but again, if Josh improves with all else being the same, I do not think that alone will get us there.  In other words, if we were to rate performance on a 100 point scale, and JA goes from a 95 to a 98-99, the Bills will still need at least one other player or head coach to take it to the same elite level.

 

So rather than pin our hopes on Josh’s incremental improvements, we should be looking for current or future players and coaches who can excel in the biggest moments.

 

Another poster mentioned Mahomes as an example of one man putting a team on his back but I don’t buy that at all.  He has arguably the

best TE in NFL history and a HOF coach who is recognized as an offensive genius.

 

The most dominant championship teams have at least 2 and usually 3 superstars as a player or coach.  The KC example is noted above.  The Pats had the GOAT, Belichik, and Gronk.  The 9O’s Bills had multiple HOFs (except I don’t buy Marv, but that’s another thread!) and went to 4 straight championships, which is why lack of a ring remains both maddening and mind-boggling.

 

 

[Charles Romes]

2 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

It’s pretty ridiculous. The Chiefs have been pretty inconsistent the entire season, but moved the ball at will against us. Only putting up 17 against the Ravens. So give Josh Baltimore’s defense and we would’ve won decisively. 

 
 

I thought not having the backup quarterback of the defense in there was devastating, especially give how much the team’s top tier pass rush relied on scheme in 2023.  

[transplantbillsfan]

8 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Calling specific runs is different than going through progressions on a called pass play. 

 

Read the post right before that one in my conversation with Shaw

[transplantbillsfan]

7 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

It seems you've missed the point entirely.  I am not talking about how often Josh carries the ball.  I'm talking about how effectively Josh executes the offense he's given to operate.  

 

The question isn't how many times Josh ran the ball.  The question is how effectively he executed the offense as designed.   If he had an option to pass or run, did he choose the right option?   Did he execute the fake properly?  If it was a designed run, did he make the right cut.   In the passing game, which is what most of us have been talking about, did he make the right read?  Did throw to the guy he was supposed to?   Was he too late coming to a receiver?   It has nothing whatsoever with how many times he carried the ball.

 

How a QB executes the offense is the QB's most important job.   He's the coach on the field.   He's the leader.  He's the decision maker. 

 

Josh's physical skills are important, of course, but if physical skills determined who's the best QB, Michael Vick would have been the MFP five years in a row and won four Super Bowls.  There never has been a QB with his physical skills.   And Cam Newton was not too far behind.  

 

Brock Purdy was in the MVP discussion in 2023, and his physical skills make him look like a high school kid when he's compared to Josh.  He was in the MVP discussion because he ran their offense with tremendous precision and effectiveness. 

 

The simplest measure, at least one of them, is passer rating.  He's 34 on the all-time passer rating list, behind 13 QBs who are still active, and behind retired guys like Brees, Brady, Romo, Manning.  When a guy has a high passer rating, he's completing a high percentage of passes and his TD to INT ratio is low, like 3-1.  Josh has been 3-1 once, in 2020.  Mahomes, Rodgers, Russell Wilson, Tom Brady all are better than 3-1 for their careers.  That's a tell-tale sign that Josh hasn't made decisions, hasn't executed the offense, as well as he's supposed to.  When he's throwing for 29 TDs and I8 INTs, as he did in 2023, he ain't there yet.   And don't tell me about his running.  To get up to 3-1 in 2023, Josh would have needed 25 rushing touchdowns - which would put him in the top five all-time.  That ain't happening. 

 

Josh needs his extraordinary physical abilities just to overcome his deficiencies in the execution of the offense.   He's not bad at executing the offense, just not great.  He's not a bad quarterback, but this isn't a discussion about bad quarterbacks.   It's a discussion about great quarterbacks.  I've been saying for years that when Josh masters the mental part of the game, and he's making good progress, we will see perhaps the greatest QB of all time. 

 

Shaw...   I understand you think I missed your point.  I think you missed mine and we're just talking around each other.

 

You think the offense is predicated strictly on the ball being spread around to the 4 or 5 offensive weapons on the field on pass plays.

 

I think any OC that has a weapon like Josh or Lamar at QB would be a complete idiot to not coach them up in some way on when they should use their legs on passing plays.

 

You think McDermott and his OC by extension just grit their teeth and allow Allen to use his natural instincts to run on passing plays at the times he needs to.

 

I think McDermott is smart enough (in fact, "buttoned up" might be the right term here) to understand it would be incredibly foolish to not try to coach Josh up on the times he should take off, since it's part of his natural ability, anyway.

 

 

We disagree.  That's plain to see.  I really think you're being too old school in your mentality of pigeonholing the QB position--especially the modern QB--to just passing is a bit naive.

6 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Can you explain what "designed runs and scrambles" means to you?  Scrambles, to my understanding, are by definition when the structure of the play breaks down and the QB chooses to run.

 

ummm... yes.... how else would anyone else define these things?

[CincyBillsFan]

4 hours ago, Professor Worthington said:

Another poster mentioned Mahomes as an example of one man putting a team on his back but I don’t buy that at all.  He has arguably the

best TE in NFL history and a HOF coach who is recognized as an offensive genius.

 

And to anyone paying attention this years Chiefs super bowl win owes more to their defense then to Mahomes or the offense.  If the Bills D played as well as KC's did this season in either 2021 or 2023 Buffalo would have at least one Super Bowl.

 

 

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Shaw...   I understand you think I missed your point.  I think you missed mine and we're just talking around each other.

 

You think the offense is predicated strictly on the ball being spread around to the 4 or 5 offensive weapons on the field on pass plays.

 

I think any OC that has a weapon like Josh or Lamar at QB would be a complete idiot to not coach them up in some way on when they should use their legs on passing plays.

 

You think McDermott and his OC by extension just grit their teeth and allow Allen to use his natural instincts to run on passing plays at the times he needs to.

 

I think McDermott is smart enough (in fact, "buttoned up" might be the right term here) to understand it would be incredibly foolish to not try to coach Josh up on the times he should take off, since it's part of his natural ability, anyway.

 

 

We disagree.  That's plain to see.  I really think you're being too old school in your mentality of pigeonholing the QB position--especially the modern QB--to just passing is a bit naive.

 

ummm... yes.... how else would anyone else define these things?

No, Transplant.

 

You're talking about what offense the Bills coaches choose to run.   I'm talking about how well Allen executes the offense he's given to run.  Those are two different things.   

 

The Bills do not give Allen plays with complex route trees and tell him to ignore half the routes.   They do not do that.  They give him plays just like the plays that every other team, including the Ravens, give to their QBs, and they expect him to execute those plays just like every other quarterback.   Yes, the Bills may have some plays they give to Allen that most other teams don't give to their QB, but whatever they give him, they expect him to execute the entire play.   The Bills offense is not sandlot football. 

[BullBuchanan]

On 3/31/2024 at 7:14 AM, Bills!Win! said:

Funny how nobody hates on Burrow. Is it because he made it to a Super Bowl?

That's kind of why everyone is doing this thing, so yea.

[BullBuchanan]

On 4/1/2024 at 7:41 AM, Chaos said:

What people call “lack of accuracy “ for Josh means “not alway perfect “. He is among the most accurate QBs in the NFL. 

Based on?

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

5 hours ago, Charles Romes said:

 
 

I thought not having the backup quarterback of the defense in there was devastating, especially give how much the team’s top tier pass rush relied on scheme in 2023.  

Then McDermott should’ve schemed something up. I’m not an X&O guy, but anything would’ve been better than that **** show

6 hours ago, Ya Digg? said:

Sorry but you lost me once you mentioned Herbert. The guy is talented but Lamar has done so much more than Herbert has at this point 

Herbert doesn’t have the coaching LJ has. 

[Shaw66]

8 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

 

Herbert doesn’t have the coaching LJ has. 

I think Herbert looks like a million bucks, but he plays for the Chargers. 

 

After several decades, Mr. Wilson convinced me that, just like everything else, there are people who are good at owning an NFL franchise and there are people who aren't good.   There's a reason the Chargers are perennial mess, and it starts at the top.  

[transplantbillsfan]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

No, Transplant.

 

You're talking about what offense the Bills coaches choose to run.   I'm talking about how well Allen executes the offense he's given to run.  Those are two different things.   

 

The Bills do not give Allen plays with complex route trees and tell him to ignore half the routes.   They do not do that.  They give him plays just like the plays that every other team, including the Ravens, give to their QBs, and they expect him to execute those plays just like every other quarterback.   Yes, the Bills may have some plays they give to Allen that most other teams don't give to their QB, but whatever they give him, they expect him to execute the entire play.   The Bills offense is not sandlot football. 

 

So it seems at least on 47% of the passing plays as I mentioned in those previous advanced stats that Allen gets the ball out quickly and efficiently to his 1st read since he has the highest completion percentage in the NFL.

 

That leaves 53% of remaining plays and 23% of ground for him to meet your 75% benchmark.

 

Seems we can establish he's extremely effective getting the ball out to his 1st read.  You don't really think he NEVER gets the ball effectively to his 2nd, 3rd, or 4th reads, do you?

 

Considering he's EXTREMELY effective getting the ball to read #1, dropping the % down to him getting the ball to his 2nd read to something like 10% would be a ridiculously large drop and then to something like 5% for 3rd and 4th reads would be a lot, too.

 

But even with that Allen would be over 70% of those in-structure plays you were talking about in terms of distributing the ball to his playmakers.

 

Obviously his completion % wasn't over 70%, but I'd assume you wouldn't put drops on Allen, right?  Or routes that were miscommunications on WRs?  

 

And what about when those plays are blown up by defenders that get through the line immediately.  Those are the plays you said Brady would take sacks on.  Josh gets plus plays instead.

 

Shaw, you're right, Allen needs to be better.  That's fine.  I have no problem with anyone saying that Allen can be better.  The issue is that you put Burrow in a different tier from him saying he's a better QB and I just think that's patently false.

 

Also, I'm quite sure there are passing plays where coaches coach Allen to scramble, and I don't consider that Sandlot Football.  Michael Vick has talked about how his coaches used to coach him up for the times he should run the ball.  It would be complete negligence for Harbaugh and McDermott not to do the same with Lamar and Allen.

[BigDingus]

It's almost like I called this exact response by NFL fans & the media months ago during the season... people just didn't want to believe it.

 

If you're terminally online (like I tend to be on my days off) & step outside of the Bills bubble, you'll see many NFL fans had turned Allen into a meme. The turnovers were too noticeable, the Bills under performing throughout the season was a huge talking point, and losing a 3rd time to the Chiefs in the playoffs only served as confirmation bias for what people already believed.

 

Even if it's dumb, only significant team success can change the narrative at this point.

 

The most annoying part is how much credit Burrow gets for LOSING a Super Bowl 3 seasons ago. Isn't the goal to win a SB? I get he made it further, but so what? People talk about him like he's already got a ring. He's lucky his defense stepped up in the 2nd half of that AFCCG & Mahomes completely collapsed, otherwise he wouldn't even have that going for him.

 

Unfortunately, head-to-head matters, and everyone remembers how thoroughly the Bengals walked all over us in our own building. Then the rematch this year didn't go well either, so all people see is Josh is 0-2 against Burrow, and 0-3 against Mahomes in the playoffs.

The narrative is dumb, but it won't change until Josh changes the narrative.

[CincyBillsFan]

28 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Shaw, you're right, Allen needs to be better.  That's fine.  I have no problem with anyone saying that Allen can be better.  The issue is that you put Burrow in a different tier from him saying he's a better QB and I just think that's patently false.

I agree.  From my POV Allen and Burrow are equal with both being elite.  Any advantage that Burrow may have on ball placement, accuracy and reading coverage is easily matched by Allen's stronger arm, superior running skills and ability to escape pressure. And while Burrow has one Super Bowl appearance Allen has not missed a game in over 5 seasons.  As they say, availability is the most important ability.

 

 

36 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I think Herbert looks like a million bucks, but he plays for the Chargers. 

 

After several decades, Mr. Wilson convinced me that, just like everything else, there are people who are good at owning an NFL franchise and there are people who aren't good.   There's a reason the Chargers are perennial mess, and it starts at the top.  

Sure you can blame the Chargers ownership but Herbert has been blessed with excellent offensive skill players the last couple of years.  In last season's 31 - 30 playoff loss to the Jags Herbert could only manufacture 3 second half points.  IMO Herbert is clearly on a lower tier then Allen & Burrow who are side by side just below Mahomes.

 

 

[QLBillsFan]

Josh will never be in the top 3 or so in pass completion % in the current stadium. 3-4 games a year,  the wind has an impact. In fact it’s amazing he’s as high as he is. That and his off script as they say keep it lower than elite.  
 

Compare with opposing QB’s at home I’m guessing he’s higher. In the new stadium perhaps. Having said that, for the next 5 years I’d rather have him than anyone. 
 

[BillMafia716ix]

Love Josh Allen but he needs to start winning these marquee matchups against the other top QB’s in the playoffs. 0-3 vs Mahomes and he’s 0-2 vs. Burrow. He’ll always be #3 until he beats those guys. 

[CincyBillsFan]

29 minutes ago, BillMafia716ix said:

Love Josh Allen but he needs to start winning these marquee matchups against the other top QB’s in the playoffs. 0-3 vs Mahomes and he’s 0-2 vs. Burrow. He’ll always be #3 until he beats those guys. 

He's 0 - 1 versus Burrow in the playoffs.  If you're going to include regular season games so you can say Allen is "0 - 2 vs. Burrow" then you have to include the regular season between Allen & Mahomes where Allen is 3 - 1.  

 

BTW when Dan Marino kept losing to Jim Kelly in the playoffs did we say that Kelly was a better QB then Marino?

 

 

[78thealltimegreat]

2 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

He's 0 - 1 versus Burrow in the playoffs.  If you're going to include regular season games so you can say Allen is "0 - 2 vs. Burrow" then you have to include the regular season between Allen & Mahomes where Allen is 3 - 1.  

 

BTW when Dan Marino kept losing to Jim Kelly in the playoffs did we say that Kelly was a better QB then Marino?

 

 

Cincy he’s another Allen hater he always says I love Josh but and that’s fine just wish these people would come out and say let’s just bail on Josh and trade him to like the Cowboys or 49ers and rebuild and be done with it. 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

5 hours ago, BigDingus said:

It's almost like I called this exact response by NFL fans & the media months ago during the season... people just didn't want to believe it.

 

If you're terminally online (like I tend to be on my days off) & step outside of the Bills bubble, you'll see many NFL fans had turned Allen into a meme. The turnovers were too noticeable, the Bills under performing throughout the season was a huge talking point, and losing a 3rd time to the Chiefs in the playoffs only served as confirmation bias for what people already believed.

 

Even if it's dumb, only significant team success can change the narrative at this point.

 

The most annoying part is how much credit Burrow gets for LOSING a Super Bowl 3 seasons ago. Isn't the goal to win a SB? I get he made it further, but so what? People talk about him like he's already got a ring. He's lucky his defense stepped up in the 2nd half of that AFCCG & Mahomes completely collapsed, otherwise he wouldn't even have that going for him.

 

Unfortunately, head-to-head matters, and everyone remembers how thoroughly the Bengals walked all over us in our own building. Then the rematch this year didn't go well either, so all people see is Josh is 0-2 against Burrow, and 0-3 against Mahomes in the playoffs.

The narrative is dumb, but it won't change until Josh changes the narrative.

Same here. The haters are coming out in droves, but I guarantee they would give their left nut to have him as their teams QB

[BillMafia716ix]

3 hours ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Cincy he’s another Allen hater he always says I love Josh but and that’s fine just wish these people would come out and say let’s just bail on Josh and trade him to like the Cowboys or 49ers and rebuild and be done with it. 

How am I hater? The facts is the facts. His playoffs victories have come against 

 

Phillip Rivers, Mac Jones, Skylar Thompson, Lamar and Mason Rudolph. 

[Shaw66]

9 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

9 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

  The issue is that you put Burrow in a different tier from him saying he's a better QB and I just think that's patently false.

 

 

 

No, I didn't.   I said that on-script, Burrow is demonstrably better, which he is.   Burrow has a higher completion percentage, better TD-Int ratio.   He runs his offense more effectively.  I said that off-script, he isn't as good as Allen, which he isn't.   Off-script, there's no one like Allen.  

[Ya Digg?]

3 hours ago, BillMafia716ix said:

How am I hater? The facts is the facts. His playoffs victories have come against 

 

Phillip Rivers, Mac Jones, Skylar Thompson, Lamar and Mason Rudolph. 

So then say the facts-his playoff victories are against the Colts, Ravens, Patriots, Dolphins, and Steelers. He didn’t play one down against any of those guys 

[ToGoGo]

40 minutes ago, Ya Digg? said:

So then say the facts-his playoff victories are against the Colts, Ravens, Patriots, Dolphins, and Steelers. He didn’t play one down against any of those guys 

His comment is what you would see on Reddit or a YouTube comment. He’s a troll and a fan of another team. 

[Mister Defense]

Hey Chronic, so you just made up those quotes and specific details in your original post!???

 

Why won't you give us the actual details, links, media and media personality names related to the entire basis of your post? I and others have asked you  repeatedly to do this.

 

You just heard some random guy say something stupid, ignorant, and then create a post that is inaccurate, untrue, based on some random guys' words? I s that, why you cannot tell us the sources? Did you just hear some guy mumbling  to himself as he walked down the street and then think, "He must be part of the media."--?

 

I say all of this agreeing with the basic premise that some in the media ARE Allen haters, and DO say ridiculous/ignorant/dumb/inaccurate things about him and define him with this ignorance. But I would never just throw out more of that crap into the ether without backing it up.  That only adds to the ignorance, their narrative.

 

Without more information you lose all credibility...

 

 

 

Edited April 3 by Mister Defense

[78thealltimegreat]

1 hour ago, ToGoGo said:

His comment is what you would see on Reddit or a YouTube comment. He’s a troll and a fan of another team. 

Exactly ToGoGo he’s done this before I think he’s a jets fan 

[BarleyNY]

20 hours ago, Professor Worthington said:

Yes but again, if Josh improves with all else being the same, I do not think that alone will get us there.  In other words, if we were to rate performance on a 100 point scale, and JA goes from a 95 to a 98-99, the Bills will still need at least one other player or head coach to take it to the same elite level.

 

So rather than pin our hopes on Josh’s incremental improvements, we should be looking for current or future players and coaches who can excel in the biggest moments.

 

Another poster mentioned Mahomes as an example of one man putting a team on his back but I don’t buy that at all.  He has arguably the

best TE in NFL history and a HOF coach who is recognized as an offensive genius.

 

The most dominant championship teams have at least 2 and usually 3 superstars as a player or coach.  The KC example is noted above.  The Pats had the GOAT, Belichik, and Gronk.  The 9O’s Bills had multiple HOFs (except I don’t buy Marv, but that’s another thread!) and went to 4 straight championships, which is why lack of a ring remains both maddening and mind-boggling.

 

 

Why do you pretend that this is an “either-or” situation? The team leaders set the standards and expectations. Among players Allen is far and away the Bills’ most influential leader.