st pete gogolak Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 5 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said: Well… I’m sure they would prefer not to cut Morse …but they need to find $80m in savings … and even with that long laundry list noted above they still don’t get there.. I would also prefer them to get there without restructuring Diggs and Miller any further … so tough moves like this might have to be made… They had the opportunity to move on from Bates 2 years back … but elected to keep him and match the Bears tender .. so they must have seen something that perhaps we don’t see as yet …we don’t really know what he has at C as Morse hasn’t missed a game there in years … Many experts were praising Anderson’s physical play in the preseason. If Morse is cut, I think they will give Anderson a shot at starting center. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussie Joe Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 (edited) 11 minutes ago, st pete gogolak said: Many experts were praising Anderson’s physical play in the preseason. If Morse is cut, I think they will give Anderson a shot at starting center. Might be in the mix … don’t know why he would be ahead of Bates though ? Was a tackle at College Edited February 15 by Aussie Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GASabresIUFan Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 Morse isn’t getting cut unless he says he’s retiring. If he says he wants to return, he is our starting center. The only question is how we get his cap hit down. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussie Joe Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 (edited) 28 minutes ago, GASabresIUFan said: Morse isn’t getting cut unless he says he’s retiring. If he says he wants to return, he is our starting center. The only question is how we get his cap hit down. Starting players move on ( or get moved on) every year … I can’t buy there isn’t even a consideration of moving on from a 32 yr old C when they are squeezing every dollar Edited February 15 by Aussie Joe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLFan Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 3 hours ago, Aussie Joe said: Move on from Morse … no need to kick that down the road any further …they must have kept Bates around for a reason … Restructuring Knox concerns me … I would be looking to trade him after this season … he has more value elsewhere than to the Bills … but they can’t trade him this year Unfortunately, trading Knox if that is even possible opens a significant hole in their roster. The contract is a problem, but that overpay does not change the fact that they need someone with his skill set. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasternOHBillsFan Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 4 hours ago, GASabresIUFan said: 2) White - Roster bonus due in early March - sign an extension but one without any guarantees to 2027. Allows White time to heal and gives the Bill immediate savings - 7.39 I see an injury settlement with Tre in the future... I don't think he will go through another year of rehab work. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptnCoke11 Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 2 hours ago, GASabresIUFan said: Morse isn’t getting cut unless he says he’s retiring. If he says he wants to return, he is our starting center. The only question is how we get his cap hit down. Extend him another year. That will lessen his 2024 cap hit but obviously add more money down the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussie Joe Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 16 minutes ago, FLFan said: Unfortunately, trading Knox if that is even possible opens a significant hole in their roster. The contract is a problem, but that overpay does not change the fact that they need someone with his skill set. I’m not going to lose to much sleep about Knox this year (can’t be traded this offseason) … there is enough immediate issues …but moving forward decisions have to be made …you want to continue paying TE2 $13m a year, or pay Brown and Rousseau ? Can’t pay everyone … He is a TE1 on another team though … 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solomon Grundy Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 3 hours ago, Aussie Joe said: Starting players move on ( or get moved on) every year … I can’t buy there isn’t even a consideration of moving on from a 32 yr old C when they are squeezing every dollar Yet they want to cut/move on from Diggs🤷 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussie Joe Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 5 minutes ago, Solomon Grundy said: Yet they want to cut/move on from Diggs🤷 Who’s saying that ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerBillsFan Posted February 16 Author Share Posted February 16 1 hour ago, EasternOHBillsFan said: I see an injury settlement with Tre in the future... I don't think he will go through another year of rehab work. I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCofNC Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 I think the most obvious solution is to flip JA and Von along with their massive contracts to the Bears for #1, #7, and Sweat, draft your QB and WR and have money to spare for 5 years. I kid of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 1 hour ago, EasternOHBillsFan said: I see an injury settlement with Tre in the future... I don't think he will go through another year of rehab work. An injury settlement makes zero sense. Tre is a vet with a non-guaranteed roster bonus due. If the Bills decline to pay that then he’s a FA. No settlement is needed. Injury settlements are used for young players who get put on IR and want to be released so they can sign with another team and get on the field. Teams do them so they don’t have to pay the player his whole salary for the year while he sits on IR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanForever19 Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 (edited) The thing that makes me laugh is that you constantly hear things like: "We allocate too much to Defense" "We need to cut players on Defense and focus on Offense" "(x player) is going to be toast following (x injury) - we need to cut bait" "Cut whoever can get us cap space" But then we have a situation like Tre - coming off two serious injuries, has an out in their contract, at a position where we have more players than we even need and it's like: "Whoa! Not him though!" Edited February 16 by BillsFanForever19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GASabresIUFan Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 38 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said: But then we have a situation like Tre - coming off two serious injuries, has an out in their contract, at a position where we have more players than we even need and it's like: "Whoa! Not him though!" In general, I agree with your contention why hold onto a twice-injured CB who is unlikely to return at his former all-pro level? However, I get the impression that White is part of the leadership on this team and that Beane likes him. I also look at our depth beyond the 3 starters (Benford, Douglas, and Johnson) and think that White may still have a future in Buffalo. Do you trust Elam or Neal if one of the 3 starters gets hurt? That's where the Athletic's idea comes in. It allows the Bills to get more cap savings than an outright release while still keeping him and allowing him to recover properly from his injury. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
90sBills Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 10 hours ago, Tuco said: Chris Jones played for something like $20 million. What cap page are you looking at? Yup with hitting all his incentives he made about 24mil range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanForever19 Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 (edited) 3 hours ago, GASabresIUFan said: In general, I agree with your contention why hold onto a twice-injured CB who is unlikely to return at his former all-pro level? However, I get the impression that White is part of the leadership on this team and that Beane likes him. I also look at our depth beyond the 3 starters (Benford, Douglas, and Johnson) and think that White may still have a future in Buffalo. Do you trust Elam or Neal if one of the 3 starters gets hurt? That's where the Athletic's idea comes in. It allows the Bills to get more cap savings than an outright release while still keeping him and allowing him to recover properly from his injury. So the thing with that is - can it be structured in such a way that it can be just as easily gotten out of next season? Joe calls it a "non guaranteed extension". Meaning what exactly? That we're able to come up with some savings this year with the ability to cut him next season if it doesn't work without more of a penalty? If there's a way we can save more by keeping him this season with the ability to still let him go without more of a penalty next season if he doesn't return to form - I'd listen to that. It just worries me that the experts say our out is this offseason. And considering we are set at our starting positions, are going to extend Douglas, and the cost of what Tre's set to make is WAAAYYYY more than you want to pay for a 3rd Outside CB (let alone one coming off a 2nd major injury) - it seems obvious to me we can't have anything close to Tre's numbers on our books. As for what's beyond Douglas and Benford on the Outside, I expect Dane to be back. They like him a lot and I don't see anyone beating down the door to steal him away. And Kaiir has shown flashes and was injured last year. When he stepped in against Pittsburgh in the Playoffs, he had a bad penalty but then had a huge pick and played well the rest of the game. When it comes to Backup CB's - Dane and Kaiir are about as good as you can ask for. Teams don't carry 3 starting Calibur CB's. Some teams don't even have 2. And with the way the roster is at other positions, it seems silly to be so loaded at one spot when there's spots on this team where we have holes at starter and at depth behind that. Edited February 16 by BillsFanForever19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 14 hours ago, Aussie Joe said: Bills $51m over is assuming a figure of $242 M which is $18m more than last years cap… This may not be “official” as yet .. but has been reported by the usual suspects that seem to get fed all the inside info ( Rappaport ) It is going to be in that range - $240 $245m or thereabouts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 1 hour ago, BillsFanForever19 said: So the thing with that is - can it be structured in such a way that it can be just as easily gotten out of next season? Joe calls it a "non guaranteed extension". Meaning what exactly? That we're able to come up with some savings this year with the ability to cut him next season if it doesn't work without more of a penalty? If there's a way we can save more by keeping him this season with the ability to still let him go without more of a penalty - I'd listen to that. I set out a possible structure the other week. At the moment cutting him NOW is $10m in dead cap for saving $6m in cap space. Letting him play this year on his current deal (a non-starter but stay with me for a second) and then cutting him next year is $4m dead cap hit in 2025. There is a pretty easy extension that you can do with Tre that gets you the same cap saving in 2024 as cutting him ($6m) but it would involve adding somewhere in the region of $3-4m to the dead cap hit in 2025 (taking the total dead cap after next year to $7-8m) if you cut him after this year. Of course if he returned to form in 2024 and we got the Tre from last year's Washington and Miami games back you'd have your best corner locked in two more years for modest cap hits of about $10m per season. The reason a deal is easily doable with Tre is because he isn't guaranteed a single extra penny from the Bills at this point. They are on the cap hook for $10.4m but that is money that in cash terms was paid a long time ago. He isn't guaranteed a bean. So the offer from Buffalo would be "here is a small amount of new money" (say about $8m) in the form of a signing bonus that we could account for over multiple years with 2 years left plus a dummy year or two "but in exchange we are slashing your base salary to basically the vet minimum to buy us cap relief." The question then becomes does Tre take that $8m in hand and figure his best chance to return to form is in the defense where he was an all pro and with an organisation that had supported him through one tricky rehab already or does he say "no, cut me and I'll take my chances of getting more than $8m in guaranteed new money on the market"? I take your other point - why bring him back if he won't start? That is fair. I just don't see a world where if we get the real Tre White back as we did for 2 games this year he isn't the best corner on the Bills. Rasul Douglas did a nice job when he came in. But he isn't close to what prime Tre is. Some maybe feel the way about the chances of seeing prime Tre again that I do about the chances of seeing a rebound from Von. Again - if you are in that boat you just cut him. But the Bills don't HAVE to cut him. There IS a re-negotiation that makes sense for both parties. But it only makes sense if you still believe Tre White can be this team's best corner. I am in that camp that does. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 10 hours ago, Aussie Joe said: Might be in the mix … don’t know why he would be ahead of Bates though ? Was a tackle at College He wouldn't start the competition ahead of Bates. But the fact that at no point in 2023 were the Bills willing to open Alec Anderson a UDFA up to waivers and protected him with a spot on the 53 the entire year tells you something IMO. I think he was inactive every week (if he wasn't it was close) and at no point did they cut him even when they needed to make moves at other spots. I think they see him as a potential starter down the road. He was a college tackle, that's right. So was Mitch Morse. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanForever19 Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 (edited) 1 hour ago, GunnerBill said: I set out a possible structure the other week. At the moment cutting him NOW is $10m in dead cap for saving $6m in cap space. Letting him play this year on his current deal (a non-starter but stay with me for a second) and then cutting him next year is $4m dead cap hit in 2025. There is a pretty easy extension that you can do with Tre that gets you the same cap saving in 2024 as cutting him ($6m) but it would involve adding somewhere in the region of $3-4m to the dead cap hit in 2025 (taking the total dead cap after next year to $7-8m) if you cut him after this year. Of course if he returned to form in 2024 and we got the Tre from last year's Washington and Miami games back you'd have your best corner locked in two more years for modest cap hits of about $10m per season. The reason a deal is easily doable with Tre is because he isn't guaranteed a single extra penny from the Bills at this point. They are on the cap hook for $10.4m but that is money that in cash terms was paid a long time ago. He isn't guaranteed a bean. So the offer from Buffalo would be "here is a small amount of new money" (say about $8m) in the form of a signing bonus that we could account for over multiple years with 2 years left plus a dummy year or two "but in exchange we are slashing your base salary to basically the vet minimum to buy us cap relief." The question then becomes does Tre take that $8m in hand and figure his best chance to return to form is in the defense where he was an all pro and with an organisation that had supported him through one tricky rehab already or does he say "no, cut me and I'll take my chances of getting more than $8m in guaranteed new money on the market"? I take your other point - why bring him back if he won't start? That is fair. I just don't see a world where if we get the real Tre White back as we did for 2 games this year he isn't the best corner on the Bills. Rasul Douglas did a nice job when he came in. But he isn't close to what prime Tre is. Some maybe feel the way about the chances of seeing prime Tre again that I do about the chances of seeing a rebound from Von. Again - if you are in that boat you just cut him. But the Bills don't HAVE to cut him. There IS a re-negotiation that makes sense for both parties. But it only makes sense if you still believe Tre White can be this team's best corner. I am in that camp that does. I disagree on your assessment of Rasul Douglas. I don't think he isn't "close" to prime Tre. And we haven't seen Prime Tre in a little under 2 and a half calendar years at this point. Since then he's torn an ACL. He never showed any sort of consistency of being that same guy. People want to say he was great in the Miami game. And he was. But the entire Defense was cooking on all cylinders that day. It was probably our best Pass Rush day. Which makes coverage easier. Then he tore an Achilles. And outside of that game? He wasn't at the level Douglas was for us last year, certainly not at the consistency. In the meantime, we traded a 3rd for Douglas. As much as you want to downplay how good he looked, he was great before he got injured in Miami. And he's surely going to get an extension this offseason. And it will be as a Starter. We're not going to throw away a 3rd Round Pick or keep him twisting in the wind on a 9m cap hit this season on the mere hopes that Tre becomes the guy he was 2 and a half years ago before an ACL tear and an Achilles tear. Nor are we going to take the level of play Christian Benford has been playing at, as he's been developing into a better and better corner and then just bench him either. If there's a way to save more money this year and also be able to just as easily get out from Tre's deal next season if he doesn't return to form - that's fine. But if it's paying him exponentially more money than we would if we released him this year, it just has to be done. The bus is filled at CB right now and it's left the station. We're not in a position financially to throw money on hopes. Especially with how stacked we are there and how bad of a shape we are elsewhere. I really think you're kidding yourself if you think Beane went out and spent a 3rd on Douglas for just 1 season. And that we plan on paying and keeping both Douglas and White for the foreseeable future. Edited February 16 by BillsFanForever19 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 16 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said: I disagree on your assessment of Rasul Douglas. I don't think he isn't "close" to prime Tre. And we haven't seen Prime Tre in a little under 2 and a half calendar years at this point. Since then he's torn an ACL. He never showed any sort of consistency of being that same guy. People want to say he was great in the Miami game. And he was. But the entire Defense was cooking on all cylinders that day. It was probably our best Pass Rush day. Which makes coverage easier. And outside of that game? He wasn't at the level Douglas was for us last year. In the meantime, we traded a 3rd for Douglas. As much as you want to downplay how good he looked, he was great before he got injured in Miami. And he's surely going to get an extension this offseason. And it will be as a Starter. We're not going to throw away a 3rd Round Pick or keep him twisting in the wind on a 9m cap hit this season on the hopes that Tre becomes the guy he was 2 and a half years ago before an ACL tear and an Achilles tear. Nor are we going to take the level of play Christian Benford has been playing at, as he's been developing into a better and better corner and then just bench him either. If there's a way to save more money this year and also be able to just as easily get out from Tre's deal next season if he doesn't return to form - that's fine. But if it's paying him exponentially more money than we would if we released him this year, it has to be done. The bus is filled at CB right now and it's left the station. We're not in a position financially to throw money at hopes. Rasul Douglas isn't close to prime Tre. Rasul Douglas is not an all pro player. We differ on how likely Tre is to get back, that's fair. I say his best two games were easily his last two when he looked like his old self again. Sure the whole D was firing at that point but Tre was outstanding. That Miami game is one if his best 4 or 5 games as a Bill. There is no way to keep Tre without paying him more money because if we release him now we don't owe him another cent. So any money we spend on him is money we wouldn't have to with a cut. But if what you are worried about is cap rather than cash then there is a way to do it that gets you the space you would save this year from cutting him and still leaves less dead money if we cut him next year than we would have now by cutting him this year. It comes down to two questions: 1) do you think Tre can get back to his best form? 2) do you believe his best form would still be the Bills best corner? My answers are yes and yes - easily! But if you answer either of those "no" then the right answer is to cut him. My entire point on Tre is there IS a way to keep him cap wise and the Bills have all the leverage in a re-negotiation. Your assertion than anything other than an outright cut is just fans in their feels is wrong IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14774 Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 So, we've got 4 pages of absolutely nothing but opinions and speculation. Sounds OFFICIAL to me. 1 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanForever19 Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 (edited) 33 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Rasul Douglas isn't close to prime Tre. Rasul Douglas is not an all pro player. We differ on how likely Tre is to get back, that's fair. I say his best two games were easily his last two when he looked like his old self again. Sure the whole D was firing at that point but Tre was outstanding. That Miami game is one if his best 4 or 5 games as a Bill. There is no way to keep Tre without paying him more money because if we release him now we don't owe him another cent. So any money we spend on him is money we wouldn't have to with a cut. But if what you are worried about is cap rather than cash then there is a way to do it that gets you the space you would save this year from cutting him and still leaves less dead money if we cut him next year than we would have now by cutting him this year. It comes down to two questions: 1) do you think Tre can get back to his best form? 2) do you believe his best form would still be the Bills best corner? My answers are yes and yes - easily! But if you answer either of those "no" then the right answer is to cut him. My entire point on Tre is there IS a way to keep him cap wise and the Bills have all the leverage in a re-negotiation. Your assertion than anything other than an outright cut is just fans in their feels is wrong IMO. You easily see him being the same guy he was 3 years ago? Based on 1 or 2 games before he tore his Achilles? That's wild to me. I think it's possible Tre can come back and play at a level close to that. But I see his ceiling being what Douglas already brings us. And not in the immediate future either (and again, I really think you're underestimated how good Douglas was). I don't see him going through both of those injuries, playing a total of 10 football games in 3 calendar years, and then being the exact same All Pro he was in 2020. On a side note - It's even more wild to me that you acknowledge that it took until his last couple games last season to return to around the same form he was before the injury, that even with the Achilles and another lost year, you think he won't lose even a STEP - but the idea that Von Miller, given the same second year to get better after his injury that Tre needed, is impossible to come anywhere close to the same guy he was in 2022 pre-injury. But I digress... If we hadn't had traded for Douglas. If Benford wasn't developing into the stud he is. If Douglas was under a cheap deal with multiple years on it. If we didn't have holes all over the place. If we were in good shape with the cap. If all of those were true, I'd be willing to say "let's wait and see and hope for the best". But none of them are true. It's not that it's literally impossible to keep him. We could keep him. But in the situations we're in, the situation with long term decisions needing to be made at CB with Douglas' contract, and the uncertainty that White's health provides v. the certainty of Douglas' - I just don't know how you can go "let's pay them both and keep them both". I really see it long term as one or the other. And right now, we can't afford to invest long term into a question mark. Edited February 16 by BillsFanForever19 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 (edited) 8 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said: You easily see him being the same guy he was 3 years ago? Based on 1 or 2 games before he tore his Achilles? That's wild to me. I think it's possible Tre can come back and play at a level close to that. But I see his ceiling being what Douglas already brings us. And not in the immediate future either. I don't see him going through both of those injuries, playing a total of 10 football games in 3 calendar years, and then being the exact same All Pro he was in 2020. I didn't quite say that. I said his best form would make him easily the Bills best corner and I really do mean easily. I did not say I think he can easily get back to his best form. But I think even at 80-85% of the old Tre he is a starter on this team. As for the difference between 2022 season Tre and 2023 season Von that makes me significantly more confident on one than the other..... Tre was not at his best he was giving up more big plays than we are used to but overall he still only gave up 54% completion, 1 touchdown and a 75 passer rating when targeted in 6 games. He wasn't a liability out there. He was just kinda average. Von didn't even sniff average last year. He could barely move. It was night and day if you ask me. Edited February 16 by GunnerBill 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 23 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I didn't quite say that. I said his best form would make him easily the Bills best corner and I really do mean easily. I did not say I think he can easily get back to his best form. But I think even at 80-85% of the old Tre he is a starter on this team. As for the difference between 2022 season Tre and 2023 season Von that makes me significantly more confident on one than the other..... Tre was not at his best he was giving up more big plays than we are used to but overall he still only gave up 54% completion, 1 touchdown and a 75 passer rating when targeted in 6 games. He wasn't a liability out there. He was just kinda average. Von didn't even sniff average last year. He could barely move. It was night and day if you ask me. I actually agree a lot of what you're saying with Tre. However where it gets tricky is the numbers game at corner as of now. 1. douglas 2. benford 3. Elam 4. Tre only 3 of those guys are going to be game day active. I'm assuming you would want to trade Elam or move benford to safety? As something would have to be done for Tre to be on the roster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
<bills4life> Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 2 hours ago, GunnerBill said: I set out a possible structure the other week. At the moment cutting him NOW is $10m in dead cap for saving $6m in cap space. Letting him play this year on his current deal (a non-starter but stay with me for a second) and then cutting him next year is $4m dead cap hit in 2025. There is a pretty easy extension that you can do with Tre that gets you the same cap saving in 2024 as cutting him ($6m) but it would involve adding somewhere in the region of $3-4m to the dead cap hit in 2025 (taking the total dead cap after next year to $7-8m) if you cut him after this year. Of course if he returned to form in 2024 and we got the Tre from last year's Washington and Miami games back you'd have your best corner locked in two more years for modest cap hits of about $10m per season. The reason a deal is easily doable with Tre is because he isn't guaranteed a single extra penny from the Bills at this point. They are on the cap hook for $10.4m but that is money that in cash terms was paid a long time ago. He isn't guaranteed a bean. So the offer from Buffalo would be "here is a small amount of new money" (say about $8m) in the form of a signing bonus that we could account for over multiple years with 2 years left plus a dummy year or two "but in exchange we are slashing your base salary to basically the vet minimum to buy us cap relief." The question then becomes does Tre take that $8m in hand and figure his best chance to return to form is in the defense where he was an all pro and with an organisation that had supported him through one tricky rehab already or does he say "no, cut me and I'll take my chances of getting more than $8m in guaranteed new money on the market"? I take your other point - why bring him back if he won't start? That is fair. I just don't see a world where if we get the real Tre White back as we did for 2 games this year he isn't the best corner on the Bills. Rasul Douglas did a nice job when he came in. But he isn't close to what prime Tre is. Some maybe feel the way about the chances of seeing prime Tre again that I do about the chances of seeing a rebound from Von. Again - if you are in that boat you just cut him. But the Bills don't HAVE to cut him. There IS a re-negotiation that makes sense for both parties. But it only makes sense if you still believe Tre White can be this team's best corner. I am in that camp that does. With all due respect after having an acl tear last year and an Achilles tendon tear this year, how it’s even a thought process that he could be our best cb at any time moving forward. That’s just crazy talk to me and wishful thinking. I don’t know many cbs who come back from Achilles tendon tears. Do you? Great teams like kc and the patriots of old knew when to move on from players. I love tre white, however from a business perspective he needs to be released. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanForever19 Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 (edited) 1 hour ago, GunnerBill said: I didn't quite say that. I said his best form would make him easily the Bills best corner and I really do mean easily. I did not say I think he can easily get back to his best form. But I think even at 80-85% of the old Tre he is a starter on this team. As for the difference between 2022 season Tre and 2023 season Von that makes me significantly more confident on one than the other..... Tre was not at his best he was giving up more big plays than we are used to but overall he still only gave up 54% completion, 1 touchdown and a 75 passer rating when targeted in 6 games. He wasn't a liability out there. He was just kinda average. Von didn't even sniff average last year. He could barely move. It was night and day if you ask me. I'm sorry, I don't know how you expect one to read you answering 'easily' to "can Tre get back to his best form?" as you saying "Tre's best form is 80-85% of him at his best". You're looking at things in a vacuum though. It's not just as simple as "if we can get Tre back, he's the best CB on this team". There's a lot more at play then just that. First of all, that's a way bigger "if" than you're giving the situation credit for. Secondly, we've already brought in another starting CB and paid a premium price for them while Tre's been gone. And we have to make a decision on that CB now, or else pay him his full 9m for one year and risk losing him next year. On the other side of that, we have a young, greatly developing starting CB. He's getting better and better and also played at a high level last season. He's both the present and future at the CB position. You don't want to stunt that growth. Douglas and Benford will be our Starters Week 1. We aren't even going to have the chance to see if White can be "his best form" for some time. Doubtful that when he does, he's going to immediately be that "best form" on top of it. I also think 80-85% of White is not "easily" better than Douglas. I'm sorry, I really don't. I really think you need to re-check Douglas' stats and game videos. I feel like you're making him worse in your own head than he is to bolster your argument for Tre staying. I just don't see any logical way of looking at continuing to pay Tre in the situations we're in. Unless there's a way to keep him, save more money on the cap this year, and also be able to get out from under it after this season - without paying extra money. If we have to pay him exponentially more going forward to keep him, you've got to stop the bleeding on that contract when we're already in good shape without him. 38 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said: I actually agree a lot of what you're saying with Tre. However where it gets tricky is the numbers game at corner as of now. 1. douglas 2. benford 3. Elam 4. Tre only 3 of those guys are going to be game day active. I'm assuming you would want to trade Elam or move benford to safety? As something would have to be done for Tre to be on the roster I don't think @GunnerBill would have Benford moved to Safety. That's an insane idea. You don't move good, young CB's in their prime to Safety. Elam makes less sense there than he does at CB because playing there requires even more of an understanding of Zone schemes than he's already failing at in the position he's currently in. Edited February 16 by BillsFanForever19 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathja Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 2 hours ago, 14774 said: So, we've got 4 pages of absolutely nothing but opinions and speculation. Sounds OFFICIAL to me. It’s a message board - built for opinions and speculation. I suppose TBD could hack 1BD’s system & post Bean’s official 2024 free agent playbook. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 (edited) Okay overall here is my Salary Cap plan for 2024. Starting with an assumption of $242m cap and the Bills being currently circa $51m over the cap. Restructures: Basic restructures (turning salary into amortised bonus): Josh Allen - saving $18m Dawson Knox - saving $2.8m Connor McGovern - saving $2.4m Matt Milano - saving $2.1m Ed Oliver - saving $1.2m Ryan Bates - saving $1.1m Restructure with VOID years: Jordan Poyer - saving $2m Total Saving: $29.6m Estimated cap space: -$27m Pay Cuts: Tre White - saving $6m Nyheim Hines - saving $2.5m Total Saving: $8.5m Estimated cap space: -$18.5m Extensions: Dion Dawkins - saving $6.5m (on the basis of a 2 year extension worth $37m - $18.5m AAV - added to the $10.3m base salary + roster bonuses he was due for this year so a total of $47.3m to spread over 3 years allowing you to lower the cap hit in year 1 - comparator contract Jake Matthews) Rasul Douglas - saving $5m (on the basis of a 2 year extension worth $22m - $11m AAV - added to the $9m base salary + roster bonuses he was due for this year so a total of $31m to spread over 3 years allowing you to lower the cap hit in year 1 - comparator contract Darious Williams) Taron Johnson - saving $6m (on the basis of a 4 year extension worth $50m - $12.5m AAV - added to the $7.6m base salary + roster bonuses he was due for this year so a total of $57.6m to spread over 5 years allowing you to lower the cap hit in year 1 - comparator contract Cam Sutton) Total Saving: $17.5m Estimated cap space: -$1.5m Cuts: Mitch Morse - saving of $8.5m Von Miller - saving of $6.7m (not realised until June 1st) Deonte Harty - saving of $4.2m Siran Neal - saving of $3m Total Saving: $22.4m Estimated cap space: $20.9m (made up of $14.2m + an additional $6.7m from June 1) And you would have 49 players under contract of whom about 38 are realistic players for the 53. They have 10 draft picks and need circa $10.6m to sign their draftees. Conclusion: it's tight. And When you consider they probably need a vet or two at DL and Safety..... it gets very tight. The other "easy" button to press is the restructure on Stef's contract. That saves you another $13m.... but it means the cost of moving on from him after 2024 (which is very much the play I think) costs you $35m in dead cap rather than the $22m in dead cap it is currently slated to cost. The other big saving option is just cut Rasul straight up. That is a $9m saving, no dead money, but having spent a 3rd round pick on him and with the Tre health question that would be brave and I don't expect them to go there. In terms of the decisions I've made above that would be most controversial given opinions here: Cutting Von - impact of keeping him is you have 50 players under contract but only $14.2m total in cap space. Keeping and restructuring Jordan Poyer - impact of cutting him outright is you save an additional $3.4m but the only safety on your roster is Damar Hamlin. Keeping and cutting the pay of Tre - impact of cutting him is neutral on 2024 cap compared to the pay cut. Both save $6m. You could do him as a post June 1 cut and then it opens up $10m in 2024 space but you lose $6m on your pre-June cap space (so you wouldn't even have enough to sign all your draftees before 1 June). Now there will be some other things they can do with VOID years like I am suggesting with Jordan to just eek another million or so out here and there on some of the extensions and get that saving up closer to $25m rather than $17.5m but every time you do that you are kicking the future can that bit harder. Losing the ability to potentially press the Stef reset button makes everything else harder. It does make me lean towards try and get DaQuan Jones back on a one year deal but with a couple of void years to spread the hit out and then probably let every other FA you have walk. Maybe one or two come back on vet minimum $1.2m type deals later, but there is not a lot of scope. They are going to have to accept being younger and thinner on the backend of the roster in 2024 and just hope their luck turns in terms of injuries and their starters can stay relatively healthy. 1 hour ago, BillsFan130 said: I actually agree a lot of what you're saying with Tre. However where it gets tricky is the numbers game at corner as of now. 1. douglas 2. benford 3. Elam 4. Tre only 3 of those guys are going to be game day active. I'm assuming you would want to trade Elam or move benford to safety? As something would have to be done for Tre to be on the roster I don't think Elam will be on the roster in 2024. I think they'll try and trade him. Edited February 16 by GunnerBill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 1 hour ago, BillsFanForever19 said: I'm sorry, I don't know how you expect one to read you answering 'easily' to "can Tre get back to his best form?" as you saying "Tre's best form is 80-85% of him at his best". I didn't say that. I said to I think Tre can get back to his best - yes. If he does is he our best CB - yes, easily. That is a separate point from he doesn't need to get back to his absolute best to start over Douglas on this team for me. At 85% of his best I'd take Tre. I know you disagree with that point, that's fine. But I wasn't asking you to read that into my answers to the two key questions. That is a separate question which is how close to his best does Tre need to get to be a starter on this team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14774 Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 37 minutes ago, mathja said: It’s a message board - built for opinions and speculation. I suppose TBD could hack 1BD’s system & post Bean’s official 2024 free agent playbook. Agreed, but I assumed a thread titled this way would be used TRACK ACTUAL moves, not rehash 457 other threads. 👍 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerBillsFan Posted February 16 Author Share Posted February 16 3 hours ago, GunnerBill said: Rasul Douglas isn't close to prime Tre. Rasul Douglas is not an all pro player. We differ on how likely Tre is to get back, that's fair. I say his best two games were easily his last two when he looked like his old self again. Sure the whole D was firing at that point but Tre was outstanding. That Miami game is one if his best 4 or 5 games as a Bill. There is no way to keep Tre without paying him more money because if we release him now we don't owe him another cent. So any money we spend on him is money we wouldn't have to with a cut. But if what you are worried about is cap rather than cash then there is a way to do it that gets you the space you would save this year from cutting him and still leaves less dead money if we cut him next year than we would have now by cutting him this year. It comes down to two questions: 1) do you think Tre can get back to his best form? 2) do you believe his best form would still be the Bills best corner? My answers are yes and yes - easily! But if you answer either of those "no" then the right answer is to cut him. My entire point on Tre is there IS a way to keep him cap wise and the Bills have all the leverage in a re-negotiation. Your assertion than anything other than an outright cut is just fans in their feels is wrong IMO. 1) No its impossible at this point. 2) No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathja Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 15 minutes ago, 14774 said: Agreed, but I assumed a thread titled this way would be used TRACK ACTUAL moves, not rehash 457 other threads. 👍 I guess it could evolve into that once the moves commence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 1 minute ago, SoonerBillsFan said: 1) No its impossible at this point. 2) No. If you answer them that way you cut him as soon as the league year begins. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 The offense is almost all returning for the first time I can remember. Only WR2 a question. This is the year Sean McDermott proves his worth. The defense will be patchwork and young. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 3 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said: I'm sorry, I don't know how you expect one to read you answering 'easily' to "can Tre get back to his best form?" as you saying "Tre's best form is 80-85% of him at his best". You're looking at things in a vacuum though. It's not just as simple as "if we can get Tre back, he's the best CB on this team". There's a lot more at play then just that. First of all, that's a way bigger "if" than you're giving the situation credit for. Secondly, we've already brought in another starting CB and paid a premium price for them while Tre's been gone. And we have to make a decision on that CB now, or else pay him his full 9m for one year and risk losing him next year. On the other side of that, we have a young, greatly developing starting CB. He's getting better and better and also played at a high level last season. He's both the present and future at the CB position. You don't want to stunt that growth. Douglas and Benford will be our Starters Week 1. We aren't even going to have the chance to see if White can be "his best form" for some time. Doubtful that when he does, he's going to immediately be that "best form" on top of it. I also think 80-85% of White is not "easily" better than Douglas. I'm sorry, I really don't. I really think you need to re-check Douglas' stats and game videos. I feel like you're making him worse in your own head than he is to bolster your argument for Tre staying. I just don't see any logical way of looking at continuing to pay Tre in the situations we're in. Unless there's a way to keep him, save more money on the cap this year, and also be able to get out from under it after this season - without paying extra money. If we have to pay him exponentially more going forward to keep him, you've got to stop the bleeding on that contract when we're already in good shape without him. I don't think @GunnerBill would have Benford moved to Safety. That's an insane idea. You don't move good, young CB's in their prime to Safety. Elam makes less sense there than he does at CB because playing there requires even more of an understanding of Zone schemes than he's already failing at in the position he's currently in. I would definitely not move benford to safety. I just was asking him as he suggested Tre might be back and I was saying in order to make a spot for him, Elam would have to be traded or benford would have to transition to safety. Again, I def wouldn't move him to safety as you don't mess with a good young corner, but it has been a popular suggestion amongst a lot of bills fans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 (edited) 2 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said: I would definitely not move benford to safety. I just was asking him as he suggested Tre might be back and I was saying in order to make a spot for him, Elam would have to be traded or benford would have to transition to safety. Again, I def wouldn't move him to safety as you don't mess with a good young corner, but it has been a popular suggestion amongst a lot of bills fans Yea to be clear I am against moving Benford. If I was gonna try any of them at safety it would be Tre actually. Coming out there were people who thought because he wasn't a great long speed guy if he might end up at safety in the NFL. I'm not saying it would be my go to option or anything but if I had brought Tre back and wasn't able to secure an affordable vet at FS I'd be open to trying him there. Edited February 16 by GunnerBill 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warriorspikes51 Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: The offense is almost all returning for the first time I can remember. Only WR2 a question. This is the year Sean McDermott proves his worth. The defense will be patchwork and young. Sean has already had plenty of time for that. The only WR guaranteed to be on the team at the moment is Shakir. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 21 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said: Sean has already had plenty of time for that. The only WR guaranteed to be on the team at the moment is Shakir. What are you talking about? We return 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, and 6th top targets from last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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