Joe Brady vs Ken Dorsey- Has He Been Better?

[PBF81]

3 hours ago, thenorthremembers said:

After watching the offense slog along yesterday I wanted to go back and look at the statistics over the last six weeks to see how much of a difference Brady has been.    Looking over the stats, it seems like a bit of a push in terms of offensive success.  What Brady has done better is exactly what McDermott kept harping on "complimentary football."    Brady has taken the air out of the offense and replaced it with ground success, and in doing so, cut down on the turnovers.     

 

Can the Bills keep it up at this pace?   Can they rely on the defense to keep playing out of their minds and hope a successful running game can move them forward?  Personally, I think the Bills are playing on a razors edge and will end up bit.    The Bills really need to consider looking outside of the organization at guys like Eric Bienemy, and Kellen Moore in the offseason to attempt and fix the passing game.  

 

 

 

There is zero evidence that the defense is capable of propelling this team to a championship.  To the contrary if anything.  

 

 

2 hours ago, freddyjj said:

I believe the OP left off the W-L percentage under each Off Coord. 

 

Was it merely because of our offense that we lost five other games? 

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

25 minutes ago, sven233 said:

What I want to know is what happened to getting Cook the ball in the passing game.  Our best offensive games since Brady took over was when Cook was getting the ball in the air.  The last 2 games?  Nothing.....nadda.  They need to start utilizing him again.  I know they tried to hit him on a wheel this week, and I actually think it was there if Josh had waited an extra beat to throw it, but I'm talking about the swings that were leveraging his speed to the sidelines, the play action fake then throw to him over the middle, etc.  All of that seems to have disappeared in the last couple weeks.  I think this would help drag some attention away from Diggs and maybe allow us to get him involved more.  There is a lot more to say about Diggs and his "usage" but I don't want to get sidetracked here.  But getting Cook back involved, especially against slower LBs, should be a priority.

 

 

As @HappyDays noted...........when modern defense's want to take away a RB it's not that difficult.

 

That's what happened to Cook...........the Bills don't have enough weapons to keep defense's from paying attention to Cook.

 

It gets tougher in the playoffs too because run defense is just about effort and technique.........and the intensity of defense's rises in the playoffs............you don't need a DL full of 300# guys to stifle a running game.

 

 

[HappyDays]

Probably helpful to note that Dorsey was coaching an offense with a true #1 WR for most of his tenure, while Brady has not had one at all in his tenure. This has created a massive disadvantage that still does not garner enough attention here or in the media.

 

Personally I don't need a total genius at OC necessarily, I just want someone that leans into strengths and avoids weaknesses. Calling a great offense can really be that simple (see: Ben Johnson). I think Brady overall has been much better in this department than Dorsey was. For example he has totally removed Davis as a primary passing target which was a necessary change. He's made it a point to heavily involve Cook who has probably been our best skill player over the past month (which is more a testament to our other skill players than Cook himself, but still true).

 

As others have noted the issue is that we don't really have a lot of strengths so it's going to be a challenge for any OC to lean heavily into them. Is Brady doing the best possible job? Probably not, but I do think it's an improvement on Dorsey and I don't think we'll ever get a truly substantial improvement in offensive coaching unless it comes at head coach. As long as McDermott is here we should assume that we won't have elite offensive coaching and we should compensate for that by heavily investing in the offense every single year.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

Probably helpful to note that Dorsey was coaching an offense with a true #1 WR for most of his tenure, while Brady has not had one at all in his tenure. This has created a massive disadvantage that still does not garner enough attention here or in the media.

 

Personally I don't need a total genius at OC necessarily, I just want someone that leans into strengths and avoids weaknesses. Calling a great offense can really be that simple (see: Ben Johnson). I think Brady overall has been much better in this department than Dorsey was. For example he has totally removed Davis as a primary passing target which was a necessary change. He's made it a point to heavily involve Cook who has probably been our best skill player over the past month (which is more a testament to our other skill players than Cook himself, but still true).

 

As others have noted the issue is that we don't really have a lot of strengths so it's going to be a challenge for any OC to lean heavily into them. Is Brady doing the best possible job? Probably not, but I do think it's an improvement on Dorsey and I don't think we'll ever get a truly substantial improvement in offensive coaching unless it comes at head coach. As long as McDermott is here we should assume that we won't have elite offensive coaching and we should compensate for that by heavily investing in the offense every single year.

We should be (more) heavily investing on offense regardless

[Orlando Tim]

If you had asked me prior to Sunday, I would have stated Brady was a step up but Sunday our play calling was terrible until the second half. 

[HappyDays]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

We should be (more) heavily investing on offense regardless

 

Yeah I think this year in particular has closed that case once and for all. Even on the defensive side. We suffered several major injuries on defense and our highest paid player has been a net negative, yet McDermott has brought the defense back around to a top 10-ish level just with proper scheming. I don't understand having a defensive head coach and also putting most investment into the defense year after year. Let the offense win with talent and let the defense win with scheme. That's how the best teams are doing it.

[John from Riverside]

Complementary football playing more of it
 

That’s why you’re seeing the defense dominant

 

I hope after year, the special team coordinator is immediately shown the door

[Kincaid Kool-Aid]

3 hours ago, The Red King said:

Also remember, Brady is an interim OC.  This isn't him running his own system.  He's stuck trying to tweak Dorsey's system.

Agree. Problem is we don’t know what it would look like with a whole off-season to install his offense next year. Could be better, could be worse. It’s a big gamble. If he’s truly the right guy, fantastic but don’t just keep him

for the sake of continuity, assuming McD is still the boss.

Edited January 2 by Kincaid Kool-Aid

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah I think this year in particular has closed that case once and for all. Even on the defensive side. We suffered several major injuries on defense and our highest paid player has been a net negative, yet McDermott has brought the defense back around to a top 10-ish level just with proper scheming. I don't understand having a defensive head coach and also putting most investment into the defense year after year. Let the offense win with talent and let the defense win with scheme. That's how the best teams are doing it.

Who are the best teams, in your opinion?

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

We should be (more) heavily investing on offense regardless

Call Calvin Johnson right now and bring him in for a work out.

[HappyDays]

14 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Who are the best teams, in your opinion?

 

Clearly the Ravens and 49ers. And that is exactly how those teams are built this year. In fact this was the first offseason the Ravens made a serious effort to improve Lamar's weapons, and look at the results.

 

The Eagles would be 3rd for me, despite recent struggles I think they are the type of team that can turn it on in the playoffs. Their issue lately has definitely been defensive coaching.

 

The Dolphins are also clearly built on offensive talent, but like the Eagles they have poor defensive coaching as Vic Fangio appears to be behind the times. It also remains to be seen if a team built entirely on finesse can win tough games in January.

 

Bengals are built that way as well, obviously this is not their year though.

 

The Chiefs defense is built more on defensive scheming than defensive talent IMO, but they forgot the part about investing heavily in offensive talent. Last year they were a good example of that model.

 

I'm sure people are sick of me saying this but you need two very good or better pass catching options to seriously compete for a Super Bowl in the modern NFL. The team that wins the Super Bowl this year will almost certainly meet that standard. Right now the Bills don't even have one and it's their own fault due to lack of investment.

[GoBills808]

23 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Who are the best teams, in your opinion?

Call Calvin Johnson right now and bring him in for a work out.

could easily have had Hopkins

 

he even wanted to come here

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

Probably helpful to note that Dorsey was coaching an offense with a true #1 WR for most of his tenure, while Brady has not had one at all in his tenure. This has created a massive disadvantage that still does not garner enough attention here or in the media.

 

Personally I don't need a total genius at OC necessarily, I just want someone that leans into strengths and avoids weaknesses. Calling a great offense can really be that simple (see: Ben Johnson). I think Brady overall has been much better in this department than Dorsey was. For example he has totally removed Davis as a primary passing target which was a necessary change. He's made it a point to heavily involve Cook who has probably been our best skill player over the past month (which is more a testament to our other skill players than Cook himself, but still true).

 

As others have noted the issue is that we don't really have a lot of strengths so it's going to be a challenge for any OC to lean heavily into them. Is Brady doing the best possible job? Probably not, but I do think it's an improvement on Dorsey and I don't think we'll ever get a truly substantial improvement in offensive coaching unless it comes at head coach. As long as McDermott is here we should assume that we won't have elite offensive coaching and we should compensate for that by heavily investing in the offense every single year.

 

Brady hasn't had a WR1 in his brief tenure but he's getting to use and abuse Josh Allen,  which wasn't the case for Dorsey this season.

 

That isn't getting media coverage either.   

 

The reigns on Allen running really didn't come off until after Dorsey got fired.

 

In the last 5 games Allen has had 8 rushing TD's........that's a 29 TD season pace.   To put that in perspective he had 31 rushing TD's in his first 4 seasons total.   There is some tush push stuff in there of course but when Allen is running it opens up things.........but the toll may also be harming him as a passer.   His mechanics have turned to sh!t with Brady as OC instead of QBC and his accuracy the past two weeks in particular has been woeful.   

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

5 hours ago, wjag said:

If you throw out the outlier game of Dallas, I would say they are not better and might be worse.  Maybe not statistically, but the offense just doesn't look in sync.  These last two games were ugly performance wise.  At a time when the offense should be humming, it just feels like it is sputtering.  Doesn't feel playoff caliber at the moment.  Drops, Diggs getting 5-30, Davis going Missing In Action on the stat sheet, Knox a non-factor, etc all feel off to me.  He gets one more chance this weekend to right the ship against a banged up Miami defense.

Why is Dallas an outlier when we dropped a ton of points on nyj and Philly too lol…half of Brady’s games we’ve scored over 30 and it’s not like Dorsey was any better vs NE.  We did absolutely nothing in that earlier NE game until josh started pulling insane plays out of his a** late in the game 😂

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Brady hasn't had a WR1 in his brief tenure but he's getting to use and abuse Josh Allen,  which wasn't the case for Dorsey this season.

 

That isn't getting media coverage either.   

 

The reigns on Allen running really didn't come off until after Dorsey got fired.

 

In the last 5 games Allen has had 8 rushing TD's........that's a 29 TD season pace.   To put that in perspective he had 31 rushing TD's in his first 4 seasons total.   There is some tush push stuff in there of course but when Allen is running it opens up things.........but the toll may also be harming him as a passer.   His mechanics have turned to sh!t with Brady as OC instead of QBC and his accuracy the past two weeks in particular has been woeful.   

This really cannot be overstated

 

the fact that there may exist a correlation between beating the ***** out of your QB running power and a decline in the pass game...who could ever have predicted that😂😂

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Brady hasn't had a WR1 in his brief tenure but he's getting to use and abuse Josh Allen,  which wasn't the case for Dorsey this season.

 

That isn't getting media coverage either.   

 

The reigns on Allen running really didn't come off until after Dorsey got fired.

 

In the last 5 games Allen has had 8 rushing TD's........that's a 29 TD season pace.   To put that in perspective he had 31 rushing TD's in his first 4 seasons total.   There is some tush push stuff in there of course but when Allen is running it opens up things.........but the toll may also be harming him as a passer.   His mechanics have turned to sh!t with Brady as OC instead of QBC and his accuracy the past two weeks in particular has been woeful.   

The games where not everything has gone our way there’s been a ton of interior pressure which causes Josh to throw off his back foot a whole lot 

 

KC,LAC, and NE yesterday seemed to get a lot of pressure up the middle 

[HappyDays]

32 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Brady hasn't had a WR1 in his brief tenure but he's getting to use and abuse Josh Allen,  which wasn't the case for Dorsey this season.

 

That isn't getting media coverage either.   

 

The reigns on Allen running really didn't come off until after Dorsey got fired.

 

In the last 5 games Allen has had 8 rushing TD's........that's a 29 TD season pace.   To put that in perspective he had 31 rushing TD's in his first 4 seasons total.   There is some tush push stuff in there of course but when Allen is running it opens up things.........but the toll may also be harming him as a passer.   His mechanics have turned to sh!t with Brady as OC instead of QBC and his accuracy the past two weeks in particular has been woeful.   

 

Yes having access to Allen's mobility is an advantage Brady has over Dorsey. But it is not close to the advantage that having a true #1 WR gives you. QB power and the tush push are good plays to convert 3rd and 5 or less. They are not easy button plays that consistently put points on the board. This goes without saying but until the midpoint of this season, Diggs has been our easy button answer since we acquired him. In many games over that time frame our offense would fall into a slump, and simply forcing the ball to Diggs was the quick way out of it. We've completely lost that escape hatch. This entire past offseason we discussed if an offense could function with just a #1 but no #2. As of now we have neither.

 

So I guess I just have low expectations for the passing offense in general. Without Diggs playing at his usual standard it's arguably just as poor a group of pass catchers as Mahomes has right now, and even the great Andy Reid can't scheme their way out of that one.

 

Edited January 2 by HappyDays

[Johnnyp566]

The passing game has been sub par and last week was downright atrocious. I believe this will cost the Bills a playoff birth. Unacceptable. They need to think long and hard about bringing in a Veteran offensive mind. 

[TH3]

11 hours ago, Governor said:

They’re the same person.

Yup….I can’t believe people think that a rookie OC coming from a failed first time OC coaching tree is our best option….

[BillsPride12]

It's hard for me to completely evaluate the Offense when I think both Allen and Diggs are a little dinged up, not enough to have to sit out but enough to effect their performance.  There are too many times we are not extending drives because plays that should be converted are not either because the throw was off or there was a drop and you can't blame that on Joe Brady.  I know McDermott keeps saying there's nothing wrong with Allen or Diggs but once the season is over we might be hearing a different story on that front.  

[Straight Hucklebuck]

11 hours ago, thenorthremembers said:

After watching the offense slog along yesterday I wanted to go back and look at the statistics over the last six weeks to see how much of a difference Brady has been.    Looking over the stats, it seems like a bit of a push in terms of offensive success.  What Brady has done better is exactly what McDermott kept harping on "complimentary football."    Brady has taken the air out of the offense and replaced it with ground success, and in doing so, cut down on the turnovers.     

 

Can the Bills keep it up at this pace?   Can they rely on the defense to keep playing out of their minds and hope a successful running game can move them forward?  Personally, I think the Bills are playing on a razors edge and will end up bit.    The Bills really need to consider looking outside of the organization at guys like Eric Bienemy, and Kellen Moore in the offseason to attempt and fix the passing game.  

 

 

Pretty much a draw. 
 

I guess you could give the nod to Brady because of the 4 wins in a row.