The Athletic: Dorsey's first 25 games as OC equal to Daboll's last 25

[Ray Stonada]

https://theathletic.com/5040500/2023/11/09/buffalo-bills-offense-defense-problems/

 

This was very surprising (to me at least). I guess I have selective memory of the high points of Daboll's time and not all the lulls and frustrations. However, the article does not really take into account the tailspin of the last five games or so on offense, where our points per game are way down and Josh looks less confident than normal.

 

One other point about Daboll's time as OC: a lot of people here say 2021 was our year, we would have definitely one the Super Bowl if not for 13 seconds, etc., etc. 

 

Well, I remember the night before the Bills' first Super Bowl. We had just dropped 51 on the Raiders and 44 on the Dolphins in the playoffs. We were playing the Giants, who had somehow shocked the two-time defending champ 49ers in the NFC championship. We had beaten them in December already. I was so sure we were going to win I was already thinking about repeating next season. 

 

Also, remember which team that took out the Chiefs after 13 seconds: Burrow and the Bengals. I am not 100% sure we would have beaten them if we'd held on and beat the Chiefs. And then the Rams had a tough team as well. You never, never know. Ever. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Ray Stonada

[zow2]

Everybody complains about the OC (including me), but it's always a combination of things and some players + some units are not executing at a high level...not even a medium level.  

[Ray Stonada]

Exactly. As they say, the Jimmie's and Joe's. It's actually amazing how consistent our offensive stats and Josh's stats are over the last three years. 

 

There is one element that I think has a lot of responsibility: coaching not in the sense of play design and play calling, but in the sense of instilling confidence and leading the ship, etc. 

 

We never win in overtime and we drop a lot of close games. And it's not because Josh isn't clutch. He's usually cool as a cucumber when we need a drive. So I put that more on situational coaching and leadership.

 

 

[BillsFanSD]

I think the analytics pendulum has swung too far, to the point that people are refusing to see what's right in front of them.

 

Digression.  During Josh Allen's first year, I saw a player who was capable of winning games all by himself.  He was raw and basically uncoached, but he had plays each game that reminded me of people like Steve Young and John Elway.  Yes, I was comparing our first-year QB to two HOFers.  Today it's fashionable for people to pull up Allen's stats from his first couple of years to talk about how "bad" he was back then, but the fact is that if you actually watched the guy play, he was very obviously good, not bad.  He was only bad if you just looked at the stats and never watched any games.  By the eyeball test, this was definitely a guy that we could build around.

 

In 2023, it's not like that.  I know the stats are good, and Allen still makes 2-3 dazzling plays every game.  He didn't turn into a pumpkin after week 4.  But just watching the guy play, it's not the same offense.  He's incredibly reluctant to scramble, he doesn't seem to roll out as much, and it feels like he's playing with one hand tied behind his back.  His accuracy is great and he doesn't air-mail guys anymore, but things are very obviously not clicking.  He looks less like a guy who should be on the cover of Madden and more like a rich man's Phillip Rivers.  

 

I'm saying the stats are wrong of course.  Just that you're missing something if only look at the stats and don't pay attending to what you can see with your own two eyes.  Stats are an important part of the picture, but they're not the whole picture.

[zow2]

10 minutes ago, BillsFanSD said:

In 2023, it's not like that.  I know the stats are good, and Allen still makes 2-3 dazzling plays every game.  He didn't turn into a pumpkin after week 4.  But just watching the guy play, it's not the same offense.  He's incredibly reluctant to scramble, he doesn't seem to roll out as much, and it feels like he's playing with one hand tied behind his back.  His accuracy is great and he doesn't air-mail guys anymore, but things are very obviously not clicking.  He looks less like a guy who should be on the cover of Madden and more like a rich man's Phillip Rivers.  

 

As I've said in other threads about Josh, and I'll just be blunt.  He's not that good of a pocket passer, especially when he has to move off his first read.  If his first read is covered or if he doesn't trust it...he should immediately step up and run...or roll out and throw on the run. That's when he's at his best.   

[boyst]

i don't want to admit or think i am giving up on this team this year because there is talent there on offense to win every game we play. but there is something missing somewhere that isn't letting us achieve a modicum of the success we are capable of and i am sure that no one knows exactly what it is that we are missing.

 

it's clear we lack leadership. our attitude is lackluster. in management they say attitude is a reflection of leadership. who's the leader on this team? Josh? McDermott? Dorsey? The Captains? Who's the weak link for this?

my opinion:  we have a young team in some regards and our veterans are not pulling their weight. on the OL the only person capable of leadership is Morse who is a shell of himself. the happiness and joy is missing from the whole scene. knox was charismatic but he's not been himself since his brother passed. diggs is the only player on offense playing with heart this year and he's taking countless plays off - he does not run block, ever. against cinci he did not even attempt several blocks for the RB who was popping it out beside him. on one play he'd have let the runner gain 2 more yards.

 

on the field we do not have an identity. who creates and maintains this identity? the players from the sideline or the coaches? why are the players not putting this team on their shoulders? who should be? who is capable?

my opinion:  the coaches need to be coaching up talent. that's not debatable. the attitude starts there and this rolls over from the top. mcdermotts not consistent in his decisions. dorsey is forcing square pegs in round holes. i would love to see if they just left play calling to josh, just to see what it would look like. i don't think it would be better because i don't think anyone is capable of coaching him on this team. i just don't know more of what i do not know.

 

the team does not have synergy. why does it seem like the concepts and fundamentals are not working together? how much can the players overcome poor gameplans? are the players not executing?

my opinion:  if the concepts are not working why do we keep working them? we are resisting change and it is infuriating 

 

we aren't winning games. why does it seem like we never have enough talent when we bring in "better" players every year?

my opinion:  the talent was overrated and the coaching staff and concepts are not on the same page. very few free agents have joined this team and contributed. since the beginning mcdermott took a young and talented burgeoning to early success. but since has not developed anyone since.i know he has coordinators and specialty coaches to do this but htey're not and it's on him.

[DCofNC]

Right and Tyrod was a Pro Bowler, based on Stats.

[Ray Stonada]

Maybe these analytics stats are not all they're cracked up to be? (EPA etc.) I thought Dorsey's offense was clearly running aground since last year's Packer's game, and that the stats would show that.

[TheyCallMeAndy]

Woah woah, pause a second. 
 

Dabolls first 25 games here came in his THIRD stint as an OC.

 

This is Dorsey’s first. 
 

 

[SoonerBillsFan]

See this is why I ignore stats.  We have great stats against ****teams and **** stats against good teams and can't win most big games. 

 

McDermott has a losing record still in the playoffs.

26 minutes ago, BillsFanSD said:

I think the analytics pendulum has swung too far, to the point that people are refusing to see what's right in front of them.

 

Digression.  During Josh Allen's first year, I saw a player who was capable of winning games all by himself.  He was raw and basically uncoached, but he had plays each game that reminded me of people like Steve Young and John Elway.  Yes, I was comparing our first-year QB to two HOFers.  Today it's fashionable for people to pull up Allen's stats from his first couple of years to talk about how "bad" he was back then, but the fact is that if you actually watched the guy play, he was very obviously good, not bad.  He was only bad if you just looked at the stats and never watched any games.  By the eyeball test, this was definitely a guy that we could build around.

 

In 2023, it's not like that.  I know the stats are good, and Allen still makes 2-3 dazzling plays every game.  He didn't turn into a pumpkin after week 4.  But just watching the guy play, it's not the same offense.  He's incredibly reluctant to scramble, he doesn't seem to roll out as much, and it feels like he's playing with one hand tied behind his back.  His accuracy is great and he doesn't air-mail guys anymore, but things are very obviously not clicking.  He looks less like a guy who should be on the cover of Madden and more like a rich man's Phillip Rivers.  

 

I'm saying the stats are wrong of course.  Just that you're missing something if only look at the stats and don't pay attending to what you can see with your own two eyes.  Stats are an important part of the picture, but they're not the whole picture.

Why though?  Why doesn't he tell Sean to pound sand and just do what he wants?  McDermott going to bench Josh?  Yeah I really want to see that lol.  

 

I feel there is something there where Sean has something over Josh to be able to force him to play the way Sean wants 

[dorquemada]

31 minutes ago, Ray Stonada said:

We never win in overtime and we drop a lot of close games. And it's not because Josh isn't clutch. He's usually cool as a cucumber when we need a drive. So I put that more on situational coaching and leadership.

 

 

 

This drives me nuts.  With Kelly and Flutie, if it was a 1 score game with 2 minutes left, i knew i could go on and spend my winnings.  Now I feel exactly the opposite.  Unless the Bills have a 3 score lead with 2 minutes left, anything can happen

[Drew21PA]

35 minutes ago, Ray Stonada said:

Exactly. As they say, the Jimmie's and Joe's. It's actually amazing how consistent our offensive stats and Josh's stats are over the last three years. 

 

There is one element that I think has a lot of responsibility: coaching not in the sense of play design and play calling, but in the sense of instilling confidence and leading the ship, etc. 

 

We never win in overtime and we drop a lot of close games. And it's not because Josh isn't clutch. He's usually cool as a cucumber when we need a drive. So I put that more on situational coaching and leadership.

 

 

I think we can point to McDermott decisions way more often than Josh decisions and execution as reasons we lose

 

i don’t know if any other team where I feel that way 

[78thealltimegreat]

I think a major problem is what do the bills want? What type of offense do they want to play? Do they want a quick strike offense or one that will grind out first downs. Until last Sunday I thought they ran it reasonably well but like anything else they reverted to Josh being the whole offense again. 
McDermott and Dorsey need to sit down and figure out once and for all ok this is what I want and go from there.

[Drew21PA]

Just now, 78thealltimegreat said:

I think a major problem is what do the bills want? What type of offense do they want to play? Do they want a quick strike offense or one that will grind out first downs. Until last Sunday I thought they ran it reasonably well but like anything else they reverted to Josh being the whole offense again. 
McDermott and Dorsey need to sit down and figure out once and for all ok this is what I want and go from there.

Why not sit down and say

 

we need to win

 

ken go with what works - I don’t give a crap what you want - I want what works and stick to it

 

boom simple solved 

[finn]

8 minutes ago, zow2 said:

 

As I've said in other threads about Josh, and I'll just be blunt.  He's not that good of a pocket passer, especially when he has to move off his first read.  If his first read is covered or if he doesn't trust it...he should immediately step up and run...or roll out and throw on the run. That's when he's at his best.   

Agreed. He's not a normal QB. He's more like Elway and Young than Brady and Manning, and I'm concerned that Dorsey and McDermott are trying to make him something he's not. Young once said that when he was playing in the old USFL, he would tell his center to snap the ball over his head once in a while just because he thrived off of broken plays. Allen is the same way. No one is better, in fact. Amazing improvisor, howitzer arm, great vision and anticipation, fantastic runner, big frame, surprising speed...He has the whole package. 

 

But it seems McDermott especially wants a pocket passer. Allen is trying to comply, but he's frustrated by the limitations. The fire isn't there anymore, at least not consistently. I say release the Kraken. Make this offense literally unpredictable. Go on fourth down from everywhere, fake punts and kicks, mix in gimmick plays, reverses, direct RB snaps... Tap into Allen's creativity and let him have fun. In fact, let him call some plays on occasion, not just audibles, either. 

 

I'm here to say that Allen has the potential to be the best QB in NFL history, the real GOAT. But he's got to be freed from the Lilliputians that have him tied to the ground. 

[SCBills]

It’s not surprising to me.  We had some bad stretches with Daboll… I was at the Jax game. 
 

However, we saw them be able to flip the switch and catch fire. 
 

We’ve yet to see that with Dorsey. 

[Low Positive]

9 minutes ago, finn said:

Agreed. He's not a normal QB. He's more like Elway and Young than Brady and Manning, and I'm concerned that Dorsey and McDermott are trying to make him something he's not. Young once said that when he was playing in the old USFL, he would tell his center to snap the ball over his head once in a while just because he thrived off of broken plays. Allen is the same way. No one is better, in fact. Amazing improvisor, howitzer arm, great vision and anticipation, fantastic runner, big frame, surprising speed...He has the whole package. 

 

But it seems McDermott especially wants a pocket passer. Allen is trying to comply, but he's frustrated by the limitations. The fire isn't there anymore, at least not consistently. I say release the Kraken. Make this offense literally unpredictable. Go on fourth down from everywhere, fake punts and kicks, mix in gimmick plays, reverses, direct RB snaps... Tap into Allen's creativity and let him have fun. In fact, let him call some plays on occasion, not just audibles, either. 

 

I'm here to say that Allen has the potential to be the best QB in NFL history, the real GOAT. But he's got to be freed from the Lilliputians that have him tied to the ground. 

All coaches want a pocket passer. They want the plays run as they were designed and called. It's a control thing.

[The Jokeman]

24 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Woah woah, pause a second. 
 

Dabolls first 25 games here came in his THIRD stint as an OC.

 

This is Dorsey’s first. 
 

 

Actually it was his 4th, as he was a OC in Cleveland 2009-10,  Miami 2011, KC 2012. 

[SoCal Deek]

Dorsey is clearly over his head so far….but our franchise QB isn’t supposed to be. At least he isn’t supposed to be anymore. Josh! Figure it out. 

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

Not that the analytics models are perfect, but I've felt for quite a while going back to last season that our defense has gotten off too easy. Some, especially on this board, always think it's the offenses job to "win the game". Our defense and McD (even considering the injuries) have been falling off. I think our offense and Josh have plateaued in the current situation. We never add a bonafide #2, we've had a marginal O line and we have a great QB who they're trying to rein in as a runner. The defense has been aging and suffering from missed personnel additions. I also think it's pretty clear that "complimentary football" from McD represents a true lack of confidence in his defense. His level of accountability with his unit hasn't been high enough and blaming the offense is always a built in excuse. Get some damn turnovers defense!

Edited November 9, 2023 by D. L. Hot-Flamethrower