Israel and the Slaughter in Gaza

[yall]

3 hours ago, Justice said:

If you seen what I seen you guys would not support Israel. Your algorithm on social media sites show you what you want to see. I purposely watch both sides of coverage so my algorithm is as fair as possible. It’s horrible. You guys have no clue what’s going on. And if you do you’re despicable people and one day you will be judged. We will all have our day in front of the Lord. Laugh now, cry later. 

Man, if that isn't some WNY grammar, I don't know what is!

Edited February 13 by yall

[Justice]

7 hours ago, Doc said:

 

People make stupid decisions that seem like a good idea prior.  Sometimes you have to live with the consequences of them.

True. It’s the dying part I’m worried about. No one will be left soon if this keeps up. Kneel on the ball. Game is over. It’s a blowout. 

6 hours ago, yall said:

Man, if that isn't some WNY grammar, I don't know what is!

I don’t get it lol. Is this supposed to be something exclusive to WNY? Lol. Either way it’s West side for life, baby! 

[yall]

11 hours ago, Justice said:

True. It’s the dying part I’m worried about. No one will be left soon if this keeps up. Kneel on the ball. Game is over. It’s a blowout. 

I don’t get it lol. Is this supposed to be something exclusive to WNY? Lol. Either way it’s West side for life, baby! 

A lot of WNY'ers say "I seen" and it's nothing short of maddening.

[All_Pro_Bills]

17 hours ago, sherpa said:

 

In this case, Israel's definition of "self defense" is the elimination of Hamas.

I don't have a problem with eliminating Hamas.

They have defined the battlefield, and the battlefield determines the tactics.

Eliminating Hamas, yes.  But their flippant concern over collateral damage and casualties is alarming.  

At a level that would elicit cries of war crimes if committed by some enemy.

The administration in Washington appears only able to "ask" them to tone it down.  A request ignored.  Yet the elected stooges in Congress want to send some $11B in return for what?  A good kick in the balls.  

[Precision]

1 hour ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Eliminating Hamas, yes.  But their flippant concern over collateral damage and casualties is alarming.  

At a level that would elicit cries of war crimes if committed by some enemy.

The administration in Washington appears only able to "ask" them to tone it down.  A request ignored.  Yet the elected stooges in Congress want to send some $11B in return for what?  A good kick in the balls.  

Easy for us to say flippant when the conflict doesn't directly impact the US and few of our citizens were killed.  After 9/11 people wanted to bomb the middle east into the stone age.  No one was concerned about collateral damage in Syria, Afghanistan or Iraq (where orders of magnitude more have died than in Gaza).  Similarly, in the past there was little sympathy for the residents of Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki or Hanoi.

 

Now that we're on the outside looking in, we think we have some sort of moral high ground to stand on.  We don't.  If the US chooses to discontinue aid to Israel that's fine but when it comes to indiscriminate bombing, we're the last country on earth that should criticize Israel. 

 

 

[yall]

46 minutes ago, Precision said:

Easy for us to say flippant when the conflict doesn't directly impact the US and few of our citizens were killed.  After 9/11 people wanted to bomb the middle east into the stone age.  No one was concerned about collateral damage in Syria, Afghanistan or Iraq (where orders of magnitude more have died than in Gaza).  Similarly, in the past there was little sympathy for the residents of Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki or Hanoi.

 

Now that we're on the outside looking in, we think we have some sort of moral high ground to stand on.  We don't.  If the US chooses to discontinue aid to Israel that's fine but when it comes to indiscriminate bombing, we're the last country on earth that should criticize Israel. 

 

 

Isn't Russia indiscriminately blowing up ***** in Ukraine?

 

Funny, because that's been going on for a while and yet I haven't seen global protests condemning that, and in that case they are purely the aggressor, not a nation responding to an existential threat.

 

I can't imagine what the difference could be...

[All_Pro_Bills]

41 minutes ago, Precision said:

Easy for us to say flippant when the conflict doesn't directly impact the US and few of our citizens were killed.  After 9/11 people wanted to bomb the middle east into the stone age.  No one was concerned about collateral damage in Syria, Afghanistan or Iraq (where orders of magnitude more have died than in Gaza).  Similarly, in the past there was little sympathy for the residents of Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki or Hanoi.

 

Now that we're on the outside looking in, we think we have some sort of moral high ground to stand on.  We don't.  If the US chooses to discontinue aid to Israel that's fine but when it comes to indiscriminate bombing, we're the last country on earth that should criticize Israel. 

 

 

 But they do want the American taxpayer to foot the bill and our Congressional representatives are falling all over themselves trying to give them billions.  So while our representatives who are intent on serving interests other than the American public prefer a carte blanche arrangement I think conditions should be attached.

 

Generally, I agree with you but the world runs on lots of gray areas and isn't black and white.  And why we might get away with such things in places like Syria, Afghanistan, and Iraq while Russia, for example, gets charged at the world court for "war crimes" in Ukraine for what seems like much less is because the world is divided into "rule makers" and "rule takers".  I expect you'll understand the difference. 

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Precision said:

Easy for us to say flippant when the conflict doesn't directly impact the US and few of our citizens were killed.  After 9/11 people wanted to bomb the middle east into the stone age.  No one was concerned about collateral damage in Syria, Afghanistan or Iraq (where orders of magnitude more have died than in Gaza).  Similarly, in the past there was little sympathy for the residents of Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki or Hanoi.

 

Now that we're on the outside looking in, we think we have some sort of moral high ground to stand on.  We don't.  If the US chooses to discontinue aid to Israel that's fine but when it comes to indiscriminate bombing, we're the last country on earth that should criticize Israel. 

 

And it at least appears that Israel is trying to minimize CD.  But when the terrorists are hiding like cowards behind their civilans, or in hospitals or underground, that's not going to be easy.

[sherpa]

3 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Eliminating Hamas, yes.  But their flippant concern over collateral damage and casualties is alarming.  

At a level that would elicit cries of war crimes if committed by some enemy.

The administration in Washington appears only able to "ask" them to tone it down.  A request ignored.  Yet the elected stooges in Congress want to send some $11B in return for what?  A good kick in the balls.  

 

I fully agree with Precision's post in response.

Israel is a sovereign nation responding to a ceasefire break and the most heinous massacre in recent memory.

 

They are not puppets of the US or any other nation that might provide aid.

 

Their military is known for being extremely careful and professional, and I'm certain they are doing the same in this case.

 

Hamas chooses to attack them and withdraw to areas on their own volition.

There is no chance that Hamas gets to a moment where they change their tactics and future hope to eliminate Israel and all Israelis. That isn't going to happen.

 

In my view, they are fully justified, and this oft repeated, since 1967,  tactic of attacking Israel, losing the ensuing battle, and then going to the international community for sympathy and a forced ceasefire needs to end.

 

Either way, the US has no right to demand that they pursue a "proportionate response" action.

That day passed on Oct. 7.

[Tommy Callahan]

 

[B-Man]

 

[ComradeKayAdams]

23 hours ago, sherpa said:

In this case, Israel's definition of "self defense" is the elimination of Hamas.

I don't have a problem with eliminating Hamas.

They have defined the battlefield, and the battlefield determines the tactics.

 

But again…what does it mean to “eliminate Hamas,” exactly? Is there a list of top names whom the IDF needs to assassinate? A percentage of members from some official Hamas roster that need to be killed? 

 

And are these IDF tactics on the urban Gaza battlefield anything close to optimal?? Both the number (30,500+) and the percentage (~87%) of civilian casualties are ridiculously high (source: Euro-Med HRM, February 3 report). Many of the hostages have even perished due to the carpet bombing.

 

And what is this lengthy siege on Gaza doing for future Hamas recruitment?? Or for the long-term security of Israeli citizens abroad, for that matter? Or for Israel’s diplomatic standing in the world? Or for their economic vitality? So it’s clearly in the best interest of Israel to bring this conflict to a swift conclusion. However, it’s also difficult to bring a mission to a conclusion if the mission objectives aren’t clearly defined!

 

Then again…maybe the mission objectives were clear all along? Maybe the intent was land seizure and eventual Israeli citizen settlement of Gaza, with the hope that the concerned international community would take in all the Palestinian refugees? None of you here, after all, challenged me on my accusations of ethnic cleansing and genocide.

 

3 hours ago, yall said:

Isn't Russia indiscriminately blowing up ***** in Ukraine?

 

Funny, because that's been going on for a while and yet I haven't seen global protests condemning that, and in that case they are purely the aggressor, not a nation responding to an existential threat.

 

I can't imagine what the difference could be...

 

Please stop with these ridiculous insinuations of anti-Semitism. They are never get-out-of-jail-free cards for ethnic cleansing and genocide.

 

The purpose of protesting is to effect change. What good does protesting Putin do? Do you think he cares what the outside world thinks? The United States and Israel are democracies that, in theory at least, are responsive to their respective citizenry (in practice, admittedly, the U.S. functions as a corporate oligarchy while Israel is a satellite state of American imperialism that helps it maintain Middle Eastern hegemony).

[sherpa]

8 minutes ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

But again…what does it mean to “eliminate Hamas,” exactly? Is there a list of top names whom the IDF needs to assassinate? A percentage of members from some official Hamas roster that need to be killed? 

 

And are these IDF tactics on the urban Gaza battlefield anything close to optimal?? Both the number (30,500+) and the percentage (~87%) of civilian casualties are ridiculously high (source: Euro-Med HRM, February 3 report). Many of the hostages have even perished due to the carpet bombing.

 

And what is this lengthy siege on Gaza doing for future Hamas recruitment?? Or for the long-term security of Israeli citizens abroad, for that matter? Or for Israel’s diplomatic standing in the world? Or for their economic vitality? So it’s clearly in the best interest of Israel to bring this conflict to a swift conclusion. However, it’s also difficult to bring a mission to a conclusion if the mission objectives aren’t clearly defined!

 

 

 

Simply absurd.

Carpet bombing?

Where did you ever get this?

The Israelis have never done this in their history, and certainly not here.

 

The "siege on Gaza" has been Hamas.

They are the entity that took all of those assets and did nothing other than build an underground military assault capability designed to launce offensive operations and hide when the predictable response came.

[Tommy Callahan]

16 minutes ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

Then again…maybe the mission objectives were clear all along? Maybe the intent was land seizure and eventual Israeli citizen settlement of Gaza, with the hope that the concerned international community would take in all the Palestinian refugees? None of you here, after all, challenged me on my accusations of ethnic cleansing and genocide.

How many Palestinians live in gaza? 

 

Even with the high and debated numbers , it's still no place near genocide or ethnic cleansing.  For that, see the congo/Ethiopia conflicts, unghars/Muslims  in china.   

 

Edited February 14 by Tommy Callahan

[Doc]

29 minutes ago, sherpa said:

Simply absurd.

Carpet bombing?

Where did you ever get this?

The Israelis have never done this in their history, and certainly not here.

 

The "siege on Gaza" has been Hamas.

They are the entity that took all of those assets and did nothing other than build an underground military assault capability designed to launce offensive operations and hide when the predictable response came.

 

What do you expect from a Commie?

[Tommy Callahan]

The definition contained in Article II of the Convention describes genocide as a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part.

[Tiberius]

4 hours ago, Precision said:

Easy for us to say flippant when the conflict doesn't directly impact the US and few of our citizens were killed.  After 9/11 people wanted to bomb the middle east into the stone age.  No one was concerned about collateral damage in Syria, Afghanistan or Iraq (where orders of magnitude more have died than in Gaza).  Similarly, in the past there was little sympathy for the residents of Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki or Hanoi.

 

Now that we're on the outside looking in, we think we have some sort of moral high ground to stand on.  We don't.  If the US chooses to discontinue aid to Israel that's fine but when it comes to indiscriminate bombing, we're the last country on earth that should criticize Israel. 

 

 

This conflict is already drawing us in. Americans have been killed in the aftermath of this war beginning. So we do have a vested interest in seeing it wide down as quicly as possible 

[ComradeKayAdams]

1 hour ago, sherpa said:

Simply absurd.

Carpet bombing?

Where did you ever get this?

The Israelis have never done this in their history, and certainly not here.

 

The "siege on Gaza" has been Hamas.

They are the entity that took all of those assets and did nothing other than build an underground military assault capability designed to launce offensive operations and hide when the predictable response came.

 

If you look at current bombed building maps of Gaza, you’ll see that Jabalia and Gaza City and Khan Yunis are completely saturated with red (when each tiny red dot depicts a bombed building). Rafah is already rapidly getting to that same saturation state. From a current bird’s-eye view, the cumulative damage resembles carpet bombing and not the consequences of tactical warfare.

 

The displaced Gazan residents have nothing to return to…which begs the question: what is the plan for them once this conflict is resolved? Is Israel going to rebuild their homes?? Or will they have to live somewhere else?

 

Similarly, as the assault on Rafah advances and UNWRA suspensions persist, what is to be done regarding the short-term and long-term food/water/clothing/shelter/health care needs of Gazans?

 

1 hour ago, Tommy Callahan said:

How many Palestinians live in gaza? 

 

Even with the high and debated numbers , it's still no place near genocide or ethnic cleansing.  For that, see the congo/Ethiopia conflicts, unghars/Muslims  in china.

 

About 2 million Palestinians live in Gaza. I’m not familiar with any argument where the Gazan population of Palestinians isn’t large enough to qualify as “ethnic cleansing” or “genocide.” I’m using the same definitions of these words as the United Nations.

[sherpa]

5 minutes ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

If you look at current bombed building maps of Gaza, you’ll see that Jabalia and Gaza City and Khan Yunis are completely saturated with red (when each tiny red dot depicts a bombed building). Rafah is already rapidly getting to that same saturation state. From a current bird’s-eye view, the cumulative damage resembles carpet bombing and not the consequences of tactical warfare.

 

 

 

No offense, but I am quite sure you know nothing about carpet bombing, what the IDF has done, what they are faced with, or even their ability to "carpet bomb."

In fact, I doubt you have any idea what "tactical warfare" they are employing.

 

Again, no offense intended.

I assert that you simply have no idea.

[Pokebball]

1 hour ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

But again…what does it mean to “eliminate Hamas,” exactly? Is there a list of top names whom the IDF needs to assassinate? A percentage of members from some official Hamas roster that need to be killed? 

 

And are these IDF tactics on the urban Gaza battlefield anything close to optimal?? Both the number (30,500+) and the percentage (~87%) of civilian casualties are ridiculously high (source: Euro-Med HRM, February 3 report). Many of the hostages have even perished due to the carpet bombing.

 

And what is this lengthy siege on Gaza doing for future Hamas recruitment?? Or for the long-term security of Israeli citizens abroad, for that matter? Or for Israel’s diplomatic standing in the world? Or for their economic vitality? So it’s clearly in the best interest of Israel to bring this conflict to a swift conclusion. However, it’s also difficult to bring a mission to a conclusion if the mission objectives aren’t clearly defined!

 

Then again…maybe the mission objectives were clear all along? Maybe the intent was land seizure and eventual Israeli citizen settlement of Gaza, with the hope that the concerned international community would take in all the Palestinian refugees? None of you here, after all, challenged me on my accusations of ethnic cleansing and genocide.

 

 

Please stop with these ridiculous insinuations of anti-Semitism. They are never get-out-of-jail-free cards for ethnic cleansing and genocide.

 

The purpose of protesting is to effect change. What good does protesting Putin do? Do you think he cares what the outside world thinks? The United States and Israel are democracies that, in theory at least, are responsive to their respective citizenry (in practice, admittedly, the U.S. functions as a corporate oligarchy while Israel is a satellite state of American imperialism that helps it maintain Middle Eastern hegemony).

Carpet bombing? Do you have evidence of this?

[ComradeKayAdams]

28 minutes ago, sherpa said:

No offense, but I am quite sure you know nothing about carpet bombing, what the IDF has done, what they are faced with, or even their ability to "carpet bomb."

In fact, I doubt you have any idea what "tactical warfare" they are employing.

 

Again, no offense intended.

I assert that you simply have no idea.

 

Oh, no offense taken. I’m not a military expert.

 

But can you address the rest of my post? You seem to be dodging my concerns of ethnic cleansing and genocide. You come across as someone disturbingly comfortable with the official war crime of collective punishment.

 

Or perhaps I’m being unfair with that accusation?? This is your opportunity to clarify your stance on the Gazan plight.

 

8 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

Carpet bombing? Do you have evidence of this?

 

Would you be more comfortable with the phrase, “over-the-top bombing,” Pokey-balls??

[Pokebball]

Just now, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

 

Would you be more comfortable with the phrase, “over-the-top bombing,” Pokey-balls??

You own your words. Why the combative reply?

 

I'd be more comfortable with, since you're asking, accuracy.

[sherpa]

12 minutes ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

Oh, no offense taken. I’m not a military expert.

 

But can you address the rest of my post? You seem to be dodging my concerns of ethnic cleansing and genocide. You come across as someone disturbingly comfortable with the official war crime of collective punishment.

 

Or perhaps I’m being unfair with that accusation?? 

 

Glad to.

 

First, the Israelis don't have the capability, inclination or desire to "carpet bomb."

I trust your sincerity about not being aware, but you made the accusation.

 

What they are doing is attacking known Hamas underground tunnels.

If that is done in an urban setting, it looks the way it does.

That is the threat that Hamas has presented, and that is how it is being dealt with.

 

They drew the chessboard, and that determines the response.

 

Israel and the IDF have never engaged in anything resembling carpet bombing. 

[yall]

3 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

But again…what does it mean to “eliminate Hamas,” exactly? Is there a list of top names whom the IDF needs to assassinate? A percentage of members from some official Hamas roster that need to be killed? 

 

And are these IDF tactics on the urban Gaza battlefield anything close to optimal?? Both the number (30,500+) and the percentage (~87%) of civilian casualties are ridiculously high (source: Euro-Med HRM, February 3 report). Many of the hostages have even perished due to the carpet bombing.

 

And what is this lengthy siege on Gaza doing for future Hamas recruitment?? Or for the long-term security of Israeli citizens abroad, for that matter? Or for Israel’s diplomatic standing in the world? Or for their economic vitality? So it’s clearly in the best interest of Israel to bring this conflict to a swift conclusion. However, it’s also difficult to bring a mission to a conclusion if the mission objectives aren’t clearly defined!

 

Then again…maybe the mission objectives were clear all along? Maybe the intent was land seizure and eventual Israeli citizen settlement of Gaza, with the hope that the concerned international community would take in all the Palestinian refugees? None of you here, after all, challenged me on my accusations of ethnic cleansing and genocide.

 

 

Please stop with these ridiculous insinuations of anti-Semitism. They are never get-out-of-jail-free cards for ethnic cleansing and genocide.

 

The purpose of protesting is to effect change. What good does protesting Putin do? Do you think he cares what the outside world thinks? The United States and Israel are democracies that, in theory at least, are responsive to their respective citizenry (in practice, admittedly, the U.S. functions as a corporate oligarchy while Israel is a satellite state of American imperialism that helps it maintain Middle Eastern hegemony).

I'll stop with the insinuating then; it's antisemitism.

 

 

[Tommy Callahan]

 

[ComradeKayAdams]

On 2/14/2024 at 3:21 PM, sherpa said:

Glad to.

 

First, the Israelis don't have the capability, inclination or desire to "carpet bomb."

I trust your sincerity about not being aware, but you made the accusation.

 

What they are doing is attacking known Hamas underground tunnels.

If that is done in an urban setting, it looks the way it does.

That is the threat that Hamas has presented, and that is how it is being dealt with.

 

They drew the chessboard, and that determines the response.

 

Israel and the IDF have never engaged in anything resembling carpet bombing. 

 

With all due respect, Sherpa, you still didn’t answer my questions. I’ll post them again here:

 

1. Once Hamas is sufficiently “defeated,” does Israel plan on helping the Palestinians rebuild their homes and return to their normal daily lives in Gaza? And if Israel doesn’t cooperate in doing so, would you consider that a grievous problem?

 

2. What are Israel’s short-term and long-term plans for ensuring that the humanitarian needs (food, water, shelter, health care, etc.) of Gazans are met, particularly as they are confined in Rafah?

 

I’m making a strong claim that Israel is guilty of ethnic cleansing and genocide in Gaza, but I’m also trying to give you every opportunity to refute such a claim.

 

On 2/14/2024 at 3:05 PM, Pokebball said:

You own your words. Why the combative reply?

 

I'd be more comfortable with, since you're asking, accuracy.

 

I already explained why I chose my words in a previous post. I do agree with you, however, on the importance of language precision. That is why I’m amending my “carpet bombing” phrase to a more Bidenesque “over-the-top bombing” phrase. International humanitarian organizations agree with me on the accuracy of this characterization. The IDF doesn’t, of course, but they’re not exactly impartial here.

 

On 2/14/2024 at 4:30 PM, yall said:

I'll stop with the insinuating then; it's antisemitism.

 

Surely you are aware of the distinction between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism?? And while we’re playing around with labels…can I call anyone not empathetic to the ethnic cleansing and genocide of Gazans a sociopath and an Islamophobe?

[yall]

1 hour ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

With all due respect, Sherpa, you still didn’t answer my questions. I’ll post them again here:

 

1. Once Hamas is sufficiently “defeated,” does Israel plan on helping the Palestinians rebuild their homes and return to their normal daily lives in Gaza? And if Israel doesn’t cooperate in doing so, would you consider that a grievous problem?

 

2. What are Israel’s short-term and long-term plans for ensuring that the humanitarian needs (food, water, shelter, health care, etc.) of Gazans are met, particularly as they are confined in Rafah?

 

I’m making a strong claim that Israel is guilty of ethnic cleansing and genocide in Gaza, but I’m also trying to give you every opportunity to refute such a claim.

 

 

I already explained why I chose my words in a previous post. I do agree with you, however, on the importance of language precision. That is why I’m amending my “carpet bombing” phrase to a more Bidenesque “over-the-top bombing” phrase. International humanitarian organizations agree with me on the accuracy of this characterization. The IDF doesn’t, of course, but they’re not exactly impartial here.

 

 

Surely you are aware of the distinction between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism?? And while we’re playing around with labels…can I call anyone not empathetic to the ethnic cleansing and genocide of Gazans a sociopath and an Islamophobe?

I am, and you can. But it doesn't make you right.

 

It's war, and one not started by Israel. When most of your neighbors have the stated goal of your destruction, this can't be a surprising nor unwarranted outcome.

 

When you elect a government that is effectively a terrorist group and allow them to use your mosques and hospitals as staging grounds for attacks and holding centers for hostages you lose any moral high ground.

[All_Pro_Bills]

5 minutes ago, yall said:

I am, and you can. But it doesn't make you right.

 

It's war, and one not started by Israel. When most of your neighbors have the stated goal of your destruction, this can't be a surprising nor unwarranted outcome.

 

When you elect a government that is effectively a terrorist group and allow them to use your mosques and hospitals as staging grounds for attacks and holding centers for hostages you lose any moral high ground.

I seriously doubt that Hamas rules with "the consent of the people".  You might also want to consider ultra-right orthodox Jews share a similar desire to eliminate their neighbors. 

[yall]

14 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

I seriously doubt that Hamas rules with "the consent of the people".  You might also want to consider ultra-right orthodox Jews share a similar desire to eliminate their neighbors. 

I e openly stated that for an eventual peaceful resolution Israel needs to do their part which includes reigning in settlers and work towards a two state solution, something the Palestinians keep rejecting in favor of continued violence.

 

As far as consent of the people, it's true that Hamas won control via plurality not majority, but you cannot ignore the fact that the population has allowed them to openly operate for years and provide support under the guide of opposing them (just look at how the UN reps there were "shocked" to find a base under their building or how the "journalists" were actively participating in 10/7).

 

 

Just now, yall said:

I've openly stated that for an eventual peaceful resolution Israel needs to do their part which includes reigning in settlers and work towards a two state solution, something the Palestinians keep rejecting in favor of continued violence.

 

As far as consent of the people, it's true that Hamas won control via plurality not majority, but you cannot ignore the fact that the population has allowed them to openly operate for years and provide support under the guide of opposing them (just look at how the UN reps there were "shocked" to find a base under their building or how the "journalists" were actively participating in 10/7).

 

 

 

[sherpa]

2 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

With all due respect, Sherpa, you still didn’t answer my questions. I’ll post them again here:

 

1. Once Hamas is sufficiently “defeated,” does Israel plan on helping the Palestinians rebuild their homes and return to their normal daily lives in Gaza? And if Israel doesn’t cooperate in doing so, would you consider that a grievous problem?

 

2. What are Israel’s short-term and long-term plans for ensuring that the humanitarian needs (food, water, shelter, health care, etc.) of Gazans are met, particularly as they are confined in Rafah?

 

I’m making a strong claim that Israel is guilty of ethnic cleansing and genocide in Gaza, but I’m also trying to give you every opportunity to refute such a claim.

 

First, I think your claims of genocide are unfounded.

Urban war is really ugly, but that's what they have chosen.

 

Hamas has had 17 years to use funds and international aid to build a humane situation.

They used those years and assets to build an underground weapons storage area to attack Israel.

Self defense is determined by threat.

I have no problem with Israel destroying what is a labyrinth designed to attack it and support/hide the aggressors.

 

Your two questions are best directed at Israel, after the current threat is negated.

I have no idea.

Regarding question 2, they have attempted to normalize life there, including employing thousands of Palestinians in the successful Israeli economy.

Hamas wanted none of that, thus their barbarism.

 

I believe that they will eradicate Hamas' offensive capability, ie., destroy their unguided rockets launched at Israeli citizens, and if Hezbollah gets offensive in the north, at the Lebanon border, they will move against that threat.

If that happens, it is a much bigger deal.

 

Either way, the first thing to do when attacked is to defend and eliminate the threat.

Longer term is unknown, but if the Palestinians want to live in a peaceful circumstance, they need to stop supporting terrorist regimes intent on killing Israelis.

That is the start.

[Pokebball]

2 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

With all due respect, Sherpa, you still didn’t answer my questions. I’ll post them again here:

 

1. Once Hamas is sufficiently “defeated,” does Israel plan on helping the Palestinians rebuild their homes and return to their normal daily lives in Gaza? And if Israel doesn’t cooperate in doing so, would you consider that a grievous problem?

 

2. What are Israel’s short-term and long-term plans for ensuring that the humanitarian needs (food, water, shelter, health care, etc.) of Gazans are met, particularly as they are confined in Rafah?

 

I’m making a strong claim that Israel is guilty of ethnic cleansing and genocide in Gaza, but I’m also trying to give you every opportunity to refute such a claim.

 

 

I already explained why I chose my words in a previous post. I do agree with you, however, on the importance of language precision. That is why I’m amending my “carpet bombing” phrase to a more Bidenesque “over-the-top bombing” phrase. International humanitarian organizations agree with me on the accuracy of this characterization. The IDF doesn’t, of course, but they’re not exactly impartial here.

 

 

Surely you are aware of the distinction between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism?? And while we’re playing around with labels…can I call anyone not empathetic to the ethnic cleansing and genocide of Gazans a sociopath and an Islamophobe?

Appreciate your correction. Carpet bombing, of course, is quite the opposite of precision bombing, from quite an opposite strategy. The fact that Israel isn't carpeting bombing supports their strategy of more precision.

[Tommy Callahan]

 

 

 

[AlBUNDY4TDS]

11 minutes ago, Tommy Callahan said:

 

 

 

Did they change the definition of terrorist?

[yall]

18 minutes ago, AlBUNDY4TDS said:

Did they change the definition of terrorist?

The clarification is even more comical.

 

"When I said Hamas is not a terrorist organization for us I meant the UN doesn't have them on a list of designated terrorists."

 

Um, yeah we get it. That doesn't make it somehow better. 😂

[Tommy Callahan]

https://twitter.com/OliLondonTV/status/1758852333318930576?t=HlZmsS5d-2VruXfK6Py7eA&s=19

 

 

 

 

Edited February 17 by Tommy Callahan
Hmm. Won't embed

[Tommy Callahan]

Ngo's helping with the migrant maps and transportation.

[B-Man]

 

 

Spineless Joe Biden is inching toward a full betrayal of Israel

New York Post, by Michael Goodwin

 

Is there a Margaret Thatcher in the house who can help stiffen Joe Biden’s spine? The late British prime minister, in a 1990 phone call during the early days of the first Gulf war, famously told a hesitant President George H. W. Bush that it “was no time to go wobbly.” 

 

 

https://nypost.com/2024/02/17/opinion/spineless-joe-biden-is-inching-toward-a-full-betrayal-of-israel/

[Tommy Callahan]

 

[Justice]

On 2/14/2024 at 1:10 PM, sherpa said:

 

Simply absurd.

Carpet bombing?

Where did you ever get this?

The Israelis have never done this in their history, and certainly not here.

 

The "siege on Gaza" has been Hamas.

They are the entity that took all of those assets and did nothing other than build an underground military assault capability designed to launce offensive operations and hide when the predictable response came.

I mean one of their politicians did say something along the lines of ‘we do not care about precision or accuracy’. And maybe they’re not carpet bombing but they certainly are wiring several buildings and bringing them all down at once. Some of their soldiers love posting their work on SM. 
 

On 2/14/2024 at 12:56 PM, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

But again…what does it mean to “eliminate Hamas,” exactly? Is there a list of top names whom the IDF needs to assassinate? A percentage of members from some official Hamas roster that need to be killed? 

 

And are these IDF tactics on the urban Gaza battlefield anything close to optimal?? Both the number (30,500+) and the percentage (~87%) of civilian casualties are ridiculously high (source: Euro-Med HRM, February 3 report). Many of the hostages have even perished due to the carpet bombing.

 

And what is this lengthy siege on Gaza doing for future Hamas recruitment?? Or for the long-term security of Israeli citizens abroad, for that matter? Or for Israel’s diplomatic standing in the world? Or for their economic vitality? So it’s clearly in the best interest of Israel to bring this conflict to a swift conclusion. However, it’s also difficult to bring a mission to a conclusion if the mission objectives aren’t clearly defined!

 

Then again…maybe the mission objectives were clear all along? Maybe the intent was land seizure and eventual Israeli citizen settlement of Gaza, with the hope that the concerned international community would take in all the Palestinian refugees? None of you here, after all, challenged me on my accusations of ethnic cleansing and genocide.

 

 

Please stop with these ridiculous insinuations of anti-Semitism. They are never get-out-of-jail-free cards for ethnic cleansing and genocide.

 

The purpose of protesting is to effect change. What good does protesting Putin do? Do you think he cares what the outside world thinks? The United States and Israel are democracies that, in theory at least, are responsive to their respective citizenry (in practice, admittedly, the U.S. functions as a corporate oligarchy while Israel is a satellite state of American imperialism that helps it maintain Middle Eastern hegemony).

They said they were gonna destroy Hamas and they meant it. Judging by the amounts of babies and children they have eliminated they’re even getting rid of future members. After this war there will be no more Gaza. It’s uninhabitable. They won’t even have to force the remaining citizens to leave. They’ll have to leave on their own. To where I have no clue but I bet anything Israel has some plans in mind. This is a land grab. Israel will occupy Gaza. 

 

I’ve been to protests and I’ve know plenty of ppl that have been to protests and every single one of us marched side by side with plenty of Jewish people. Anti-semitism is a card that’s being used way too much in this occasion. 
 

And yes protests happen here because the US is funding the war. Pretty obvious. 
 

On 2/14/2024 at 1:12 PM, Tommy Callahan said:

How many Palestinians live in gaza? 

 

Even with the high and debated numbers , it's still no place near genocide or ethnic cleansing.  For that, see the congo/Ethiopia conflicts, unghars/Muslims  in china.   

 

Oct 7th was called a genocide by many. I’ve heard tons of statements from Israeli politicians calling to wipe out the entire Strip and the WB too. Call it what you want but this is a massacre. I’m desensitized to it now. That’s how bad all the images are. Started out in tears watching them and now nothing. 
 

On 2/14/2024 at 4:30 PM, yall said:

I'll stop with the insinuating then; it's antisemitism.

 

 

Netanyahu called the people of Gaza Amalekites. You have a name for that kind of rhetoric?
 

On 2/16/2024 at 10:39 AM, sherpa said:

 

First, I think your claims of genocide are unfounded.

Urban war is really ugly, but that's what they have chosen.

 

Hamas has had 17 years to use funds and international aid to build a humane situation.

They used those years and assets to build an underground weapons storage area to attack Israel.

Self defense is determined by threat.

I have no problem with Israel destroying what is a labyrinth designed to attack it and support/hide the aggressors.

 

Your two questions are best directed at Israel, after the current threat is negated.

I have no idea.

Regarding question 2, they have attempted to normalize life there, including employing thousands of Palestinians in the successful Israeli economy.

Hamas wanted none of that, thus their barbarism.

 

I believe that they will eradicate Hamas' offensive capability, ie., destroy their unguided rockets launched at Israeli citizens, and if Hezbollah gets offensive in the north, at the Lebanon border, they will move against that threat.

If that happens, it is a much bigger deal.

 

Either way, the first thing to do when attacked is to defend and eliminate the threat.

Longer term is unknown, but if the Palestinians want to live in a peaceful circumstance, they need to stop supporting terrorist regimes intent on killing Israelis.

That is the start.

Only gonna respond to how Hamas utilized their funds and the only thing I can say is WTF were they thinking? They must think outsiders will eventually step in and it will be a wide scale war involving many nations. Them dumbasses might finally learn nobody is coming to help them. Nobody wants to be the next country “freed”. 
 

On 2/17/2024 at 10:00 AM, Tommy Callahan said:

Ngo's helping with the migrant maps and transportation.

 

If we use this rationale then we should defund everyone that has corrupt members? No funding for politicians, police, places of worship, I mean ***** just about any group ever assembled.  

[Andy1]

Hamas started this war and Israel will decide when it ends. After this war is over, Palestinians need to focus on building a society that provides a better future for their children. The delusional idea of eliminating Israel must end. Muslim leaders will need to speak about peace. It’s difficult but can it be done if the people desire for a better, different future. Cambodia, Vietnam, Japan and other nations have experienced horrific wars and turned towards peace afterwards. Nationhood will never happen without peace. If they don’t do that, the dead end cycle of violence will continue.