Kirksey signing with the Bills PS

[Dr. Who]

5 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

Leonard Floyd is a legitimate edge rusher, and Ed Oliver is probably an above average 3T. Rousseau is at least average at LDE with tons of upside. Daquan Jones, as you recognized, is understood to be an awesome-or-at-least-solid 1T. Add in the depth of Poona Ford at 1T and both Tim Settle and Jordan Philips at 3T, along with Epenesa and Jonathan and Lawson at the edge...and nowhere here have we even mentioned the week 5-London return of Von Miller...

 

That doesn't sound AT ALL like a "bad" defensive line. 

I was sorry we kept Poona after his dreadful preseason at the expense of Ankou, but then we ended up with Eli on the PS anyway. They've invested a lot on DL. I don't see how the floor isn't at least mediocre and I expect they will be pretty good. If Miller comes back with anything left in the tank, they should be formidable.

[Beck Water]

7 hours ago, That's No Moon said:

What if the Bills defensive line is also bad?  Who, other than the currently broken Von Miller, scares the other team on our line? Daquan Jones is the only one stout against the run. Epenesa is constantly out of position. Rousseau is super inconsistent. Phillips is constantly hurt. Lawson is a JAG.

 

Put it this way, Cincinnati didn't seem to have a ton of trouble with our line, with a subpar and broken O-Line (at the time) of their own.

 

I'm not sure what your point about Cincinnati is.  Daquan Jones didn't play vs. Cincinnati, calf injury.  Ed Oliver played 75% of the game, wasn't on injury report but was wearing a shoulder brace a couple weeks earlier.  Jordan Phillips was questionable with a shoulder, got off season surgery.  TBH I'm not sure who our DL against Cincy was - the starters were Eli Ankou and Tim Settle.  I think Ed Oliver (shoulder) may have played some 1T? Also Jordan Phillips (shoulder), and Boogie Basham took snaps.  Our starting DE were Shaq Lawson and Rousseau, AJ Epenesa, Kingsley Jonathan, and Boogie behind them I think.

 

Anyway, it appears their subpar and broken O-line beat up our sub-par and broken D-line.

 

Shaq Lawson has become a very good run defender.  Rousseau is also pretty good against the run.

[That's No Moon]

10 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

Leonard Floyd is a legitimate edge rusher, and Ed Oliver is probably an above average 3T. Rousseau is at least average at LDE with tons of upside. Daquan Jones, as you recognized, is understood to be an awesome-or-at-least-solid 1T. Add in the depth of Poona Ford at 1T and both Tim Settle and Jordan Philips at 3T, along with Epenesa and Jonathan and Lawson at the edge...and nowhere here have we even mentioned the week 5-London return of Von Miller...

 

That doesn't sound AT ALL like a "bad" defensive line. 

You're right, it doesn't sound bad. For what they've invested into it they should be decent.

[The Frankish Reich]

On 9/2/2023 at 5:30 AM, maddenboy said:

The point of the bend-dont-break is to capitalize on those mistakes.  Where capitalize does not just mean 'eventually get the ball back.'

 

sacks.  forced fumbles.  QB hits.  Opponents geting frustrated and commiting personal fouls.  Tricking QBs. 

 

I disagree. The point was to prevent the other guys from scoring. And measuring success by points allowed, well, that worked.

The opposite of the Rex Ryan style defense, which is based on causing confusion in the offense and capitalizing on it. In that defense you take the risk of giving up the big play in order to make one yourself.

 

[maddenboy]

24 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I disagree. The point was to prevent the other guys from scoring. And measuring success by points allowed, well, that worked.

The opposite of the Rex Ryan style defense, which is based on causing confusion in the offense and capitalizing on it. In that defense you take the risk of giving up the big play in order to make one yourself.

 

the point of every defense is to prevent the other guys from scoring.

 

the people who run a Bend-but-dont-break philosphy on defense are doing so because they think its the best way to prevent the other guys from scoring.

 

its best because, if you give the other teams enough chances to make mistakes, they will make them frequently enough.

 

think of it as the  Rope-A-Dope.   I am doing it to capitalize when your arms get tired and your guard drops.  Not just to win a split decision.

[The Frankish Reich]

4 minutes ago, maddenboy said:

the point of every defense is to prevent the other guys from scoring.

 

the people who run a Bend-but-dont-break philosphy on defense are doing so because they think its the best way to prevent the other guys from scoring.

 

its best because, if you give the other teams enough chances to make mistakes, they will make them frequently enough.

 

think of it as the  Rope-A-Dope.   I am doing it to capitalize when your arms get tired and your guard drops.  Not just to win a split decision.

Maybe what we're saying here has some common ground. Leslie Frazier's D holds the opponent to 2 field goals in their first 3 possessions. Josh Allen's offense scores 2 TDs on their first 3 possessions. The opponent is playing from behind, taking more risks, the ratio of passes to runs increases, they give up the ball.

 

[maddenboy]

4 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Maybe what we're saying here has some common ground. Leslie Frazier's D holds the opponent to 2 field goals in their first 3 possessions. Josh Allen's offense scores 2 TDs on their first 3 possessions. The opponent is playing from behind, taking more risks, the ratio of passes to runs increases, they give up the ball.

 

agree to a point.

 

but BBDB teams still run that philosophy when they are trailing.  because i just know you are gonna make costly, juicy mistakes.

 

I think we might disagree on "they give up the ball."   BBDB contemplates "i take it from you" from you.  From your errant pass, or your poor execution which leads to opportunitties for me to take it.   from your exhausted offensive line giving me sacks.    from my linebacker doing (insert link to every edmunds thread, here), from my playmakers on defense (yes, there is such a thing) actually making plays.

 

not just getting it back after a punt.

 

I'm just saying the BBDB wants you to run 50 offensive plays instead of 40.  But not because it means i gave you 3 instead of 7.   But because i love every time you run a play, since that's one more chance for me to capitalize on your mistakes. 

[Warriorspikes51]

On 9/3/2023 at 8:45 PM, TBBills Fan said:

Does he start week 1?  I think he does 

 

It will be interesting to see what practice looks like this week on defense

On 9/3/2023 at 9:35 AM, RichRiderBills said:

For a team with LB issues, you would not fully know it from PS. Surprised we did not retain Travin Howard. Looked like a screamer who could fit well in our system. 

 

Plus, he actually had an int in the SB.   I'd have kept him over Dodson and Spector 

[Chaos]

8 hours ago, maddenboy said:

the point of every defense is to prevent the other guys from scoring.

 

the people who run a Bend-but-dont-break philosphy on defense are doing so because they think its the best way to prevent the other guys from scoring.

 

its best because, if you give the other teams enough chances to make mistakes, they will make them frequently enough.

 

think of it as the  Rope-A-Dope.   I am doing it to capitalize when your arms get tired and your guard drops.  Not just to win a split decision.

A defense waiting for mistakes to succeed will generally fail against the Mahomes and Burrows of the world

[maddenboy]

11 minutes ago, Chaos said:

A defense waiting for mistakes to succeed will generally fail against the Mahomes and Burrows of the world

agree. 

 

not saying i like the BBDB defense.   Cant stand it.

 

like my chess coach used to say in high school:  if your plan involves the other person making a mistake, keep thinking.   Because that's not a plan.

[Charles Romes]

On 9/4/2023 at 12:13 PM, ScottLaw said:

Rousseau should be better than average… I expect a break out season for him. 

everyone has been predicting a huge breakout for Rousseau the last three seasons.  It needed to happen last year when Von went down, but he disappeared instead.  

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

21 minutes ago, Charles Romes said:

everyone has been predicting a huge breakout for Rousseau the last three seasons.  It needed to happen last year when Von went down, but he disappeared instead.  

 

Well he was a rookie 2 years ago, and he coincidentally became healthy the week Von went down... soooo weird.  

Edited September 6, 2023 by Bleeding Bills Blue

[SWATeam]

3 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Last year was his 2nd season?

And we was breaking out until the high ankle sprain.

[Beck Water]

10 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I disagree. The point was to prevent the other guys from scoring. And measuring success by points allowed, well, that worked.

The opposite of the Rex Ryan style defense, which is based on causing confusion in the offense and capitalizing on it. In that defense you take the risk of giving up the big play in order to make one yourself.

 

 

So here's a little point about the "bend not break" "measure success by points allowed" Bills defense.

In 2021, the Bills D was #1 in both points allowed, AND yards.  2020, 16 in points, 14 in yards.  2019, #2 in points #3 in yards.

2022 is requires more work to correct for # games played in pro-football-reference, but I make it #2 in PA and #6 in yards (by 18 yds per game vs #1 & #2 teams)

 

Point being, the Bills D historically doesn't seem to be doing a disproportionate amount of "bending" in allowing yards vs. allowing points.

 

Where we've had a problem is in throttling other teams in a handful of tight moments in big games - 13 seconds, Vikes game etc

Well, and the Bengals divisional debacle last year which, contrary to narrative, was a horrible fail for the defense.

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

4 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Where we've had a problem is in throttling other teams in a handful of tight moments in big games - 13 seconds, Vikes game etc

Well, and the Bengals divisional debacle last year which, contrary to narrative, was a horrible fail for the defense.

And in 4th down .

 

But overall I agree. 

[The Frankish Reich]

5 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

Where we've had a problem is in throttling other teams in a handful of tight moments in big games - 13 seconds, Vikes game etc

True. It was more of a lack of ability to adapt to those special situations that call for a different approach.

[dollars 2 donuts]

 

I don't need Rousseau to be Bruce Smith.  

 

However, I would really appreciate it if he would develop into an Aaron Schobel or Phil Hansen, and sooner rather than later.

 

 

Go Bills.

 

 

 

[FLFan]

12 hours ago, maddenboy said:

the point of every defense is to prevent the other guys from scoring.

 

the people who run a Bend-but-dont-break philosphy on defense are doing so because they think its the best way to prevent the other guys from scoring.

 

its best because, if you give the other teams enough chances to make mistakes, they will make them frequently enough.

 

think of it as the  Rope-A-Dope.   I am doing it to capitalize when your arms get tired and your guard drops.  Not just to win a split decision.

The style of defense the Bills have played under McD and Frazier as you point out is designed to prevent points and big plays and has been very successful in doing so, dominant even in that regard.  It depends upon the safeties and other DBs to make the plays that are there to be made and that is where the Bills had trouble last year, with Hyde out, Poyer out or hurt most of the year, Tre out and less than 100% on his return, etc etc.  it looks bad when it does not work and it was never going to work at peak with all the injuries to the secondary and D line.  This exposed Frazier to a degree, as if the debacle in KC did not.  He was unable to adjust to the lack of personnel to play the scheme last year and do something about it.  I am convinced this why Frazier is gone.

 

I do not suspect McD is going to scrap this approach entirely but I do expect a more creative and aggressive approach at times and more focus on turning the ball over.  It is also why I am not overly concerned with the change at MLB. I would hope that they do not sit back against Rogers.  Be aggressive, mix it up, and expose him.  He is not nearly as mobile as he used to be and he looked to me last year like him arm strength is also not what it was, but if you let him he can still pick you apart. 

[FLFan]

1 hour ago, dollars 2 donuts said:

 

I don't need Rousseau to be Bruce Smith.  

 

However, I would really appreciate it if he would develop into an Aaron Schobel or Phil Hansen, and sooner rather than later.

 

 

Go Bills.

 

 

 

I think he already is at Schobels level.  Schobel had 8.5 sacks his  second year in 16 games, Rousseau 8 in 13 games.  Hansen was never more than average, even with Bruce Smith opposite him.  He was a decent run defender, a Shaq Lawson level player.   Let’s see what Greg can do this year.  I think once Von gets back he is really going to eat.  

[dollars 2 donuts]

1 hour ago, FLFan said:

I think he already is at Schobels level.  Schobel had 8.5 sacks his  second year in 16 games, Rousseau 8 in 13 games.  Hansen was never more than average, even with Bruce Smith opposite him.  He was a decent run defender, a Shaq Lawson level player.   Let’s see what Greg can do this year.  I think once Von gets back he is really going to eat.  

 

 

Hansen and Rousseau are pretty close in their early starts numbers.  If you can go by first 30 starts they have close to the same sacks (Hansen has more through the period (13.5-12), but it is difficult to track and he likely had only 10 at 30 starts to GR's 12), and Hansen has more total tackles ( apparently a little more than 100 combined to Rousseau's 87), but again difficult to track as there is no log for solo and assisted, just combined back in Hansen's day on PFR.