The 3 Kincaid catches- we have another elite weapon on o

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

Here's what those links say: 

 

The first says this:  Smooth, efficient route-runner on routes that allow him to pick up speed and stride into space.

 

The second says this:  Kincaid is smooth as a route runner, gliding in and out of route breaks before hitting his second gear in an instant after the ball hits his hands. 

 

The third says this:  Kincaid is explosive in his release and is a smooth/fluid route runner. 

 

The fourth says this:  Smooth, nuanced route runner 

 

So, notice in every one of these quotes, "smooth" is an adjective that either is superfluous because there is another adjective or describes how he looks.   Read each one leaving out the word smooth and you get the same information about 

 

The first: smooth is how he looks.  Leave it out, and it says he is an efficient route runner, which is what matters. 

 

The second:    Smooth describes how he looks, gliding and out of breaks.  Leave it out, and it say he hits his second gear an instant after the ball hits, which is what matters.  

 

The third, smooth and fluid describe how he looks.  Leave it out and what it says is that he's explosive in his release, which is what matters.

 

The fourth, smooth again is how he looks.  Leaved it out and it says he's a nuanced route runner, which is what matters.  

 

I'm telling you, smooth is just a word that describes how he looks.   There is no smoothness index, no smoothness stat.   Some of the best receivers are smooth, some of the worst receivers are smooth.  The fact that he's smooth doesn't make him good.     

🤦🏻‍♂️

 

did anyone say that he’s good because he’s smooth?

12 minutes ago, ngbills said:

Like I said, I have seen plenty of guys catch that pass. I have seen high school kids make that play that are not good enough to play college ball. I have seen college players that are never drafted. I have seen plenty of NFL players do it. Showing his preseason catches is cool and all but I dont walk away saying wow I have never seen that kind of skill. Go watch his game against USC or just his season highlights and you get a better picture of his talent. That is all I am saying. 

Like I said- if you can’t see the difference between Dalton Kincaid running routes and Knox, Morris or sternberger running routes, that’s on you.  
 

 

they are not the same.  
 

You’ll see

Edited August 24, 2023 by NewEra

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

Fluid athletes can be lousy route runners.  They can round off their cuts, for example. 

 

Most good route runners are not described as smooth.   His route running happens to be smooth.   Great.  He's pretty to watch.   Smoothness is descriptive of how he looks, not a physical behavior that is essential to athleticism, like quickness, speed, vertical leap, agility, etc., etc.   All it says is he's a pleasure to watch, because we find smoothness in motion attractive.  We like gliding.  We like how figure skaters flow through their routines.  Smoothness is pretty.   It is a characteristic of some good football players, but isn't a characteristic to being a good football players. 

 

If smoothness were so important, the combine would test for it.  

What is your problem with what’s is being said?  You seem irked by the fact that fans on a message board are using the word smooth when talking about the kid. I don’t understand why.  Is anyone saying that the only reason he’s good is because he’s a smooth mover?  

[Buffalo716]

4 minutes ago, NewEra said:

What is your problem with what’s is being said?  You seem irked by the fact that fans on a message board are using the word smooth when talking about the kid. I don’t understand why.  Is anyone saying that the only reason he’s good is because he’s a smooth mover?  

 

When I was watching him in Utah... One word that kept crossing my mind was smooth lol

 

And I wanted him

Edited August 24, 2023 by Buffalo716

[NewEra]

1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

When I was watching him in Utah... One word that kept crossing my mind was smooth lol

 

And I wanted him

💯 

 

thats why @Shaw66diatribe is all the more confusing

[CincyBillsFan]

7 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Who's smooth?   So far we have Jerry Rice and Marvin Harrison.   Maybe one or both of those guys the Bengals have?   I mean, smooth seems to describe the way the guy looks, but it seems to me that I don't care whether he looks smooth or not.   I care about is catches per target, his yards per catch, etc.  

 

I would throw out Lance Allworth and Bobby Chandler as being smooth in their receiving style.

 

 

[Buffalo716]

Just now, NewEra said:

💯

 

thats why @Shaw66diatribe is all the more confusing

And obviously being smooth doesn't mean you're going to be a great football player ....

 

But when you watch somebody who does everything so effortlessly... The way he moves, and breaks off a route .. his gait

 

Smooth is a million times better than clunky

[Shaw66]

6 minutes ago, NewEra said:

What is your problem with what’s is being said?  You seem irked by the fact that fans on a message board are using the word smooth when talking about the kid. I don’t understand why.  Is anyone saying that the only reason he’s good is because he’s a smooth mover?  

I don't have a problem.   I just asked what it means and why it's relevant to a discussion of his talents.   I don't think it's relevant, so I asked people.  And it turns out no one really has been able to tell me.  

 

I said in a post, and I don't think anyone responded:  If smoothness is really relevant to being a good player, why hasn't anyone come up with a way to measure smoothness?  They don't test for smoothness at the combine.   PFF grades players on all different kinds of things.  Football Outsiders, too.  Nobody measures smoothness.  Why not?  Because it can't be measured?   I don't think so.  They don't measure it because smoothness is not something it is important have, at least that's what I think.   People are suggesting that smoothness has something to do with route running, but I've said there are plenty of good route runners who aren't smooth.  

 

One thing I can think about smoothness is that it may lull the defense into a false sense of security, because guys who are smooth don't look like their running hard, don't look like they're cutting sharply.   Every looks easy for them, so they don't look like they're trying.  Rice was like that.   But it didn't take long for the rest of the league to figure out that regardless of how he looked doing it, you had work you tail off to try to cover him.  So, I don't know that smoothness, if it's an asset on the field at all, lasts very long as an asset.  After you get hypnotized once or twice by his smoothness, you wake up.  

 

As I said a few times now.  I watch Shakir and think he's smooth.   That's always been my impression of him.   It doesn't make Shakier a starter.  Jerry Rice was incredibly smooth.   He flowed all over the field.   I think that only made him more enjoyable to watch.   

 

I'm pretty sure smooth just describes how someone looks doing whatever he's doing.   

 

 

14 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

I would throw out Lance Allworth and Bobby Chandler as being smooth in their receiving style.

 

 

I don't about Chandler, but definitely Alworth.  

14 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

 

Smooth is a million times better than clunky

I don't think so.  I think it's interesting that people have named a half dozen great receivers who were smooth.  Almost none of them are playing today.  OBJ, no.  Hopkins, no.  Maybe one or both guys at Cinci.  Tyreek Hill, no.  They're not smooth.   

 

I really think smooth is about how he looks when he's doing job.   It's not about how well he does his job.  

[NewEra]

15 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't have a problem.   I just asked what it means and why it's relevant to a discussion of his talents.   I don't think it's relevant, so I asked people.  And it turns out no one really has been able to tell me.  

 

I said in a post, and I don't think anyone responded:  If smoothness is really relevant to being a good player, why hasn't anyone come up with a way to measure smoothness?  They don't test for smoothness at the combine.   PFF grades players on all different kinds of things.  Football Outsiders, too.  Nobody measures smoothness.  Why not?  Because it can't be measured?   I don't think so.  They don't measure it because smoothness is not something it is important have, at least that's what I think.   People are suggesting that smoothness has something to do with route running, but I've said there are plenty of good route runners who aren't smooth.  

 

One thing I can think about smoothness is that it may lull the defense into a false sense of security, because guys who are smooth don't look like their running hard, don't look like they're cutting sharply.   Every looks easy for them, so they don't look like they're trying.  Rice was like that.   But it didn't take long for the rest of the league to figure out that regardless of how he looked doing it, you had work you tail off to try to cover him.  So, I don't know that smoothness, if it's an asset on the field at all, lasts very long as an asset.  After you get hypnotized once or twice by his smoothness, you wake up.  

 

As I said a few times now.  I watch Shakir and think he's smooth.   That's always been my impression of him.   It doesn't make Shakier a starter.  Jerry Rice was incredibly smooth.   He flowed all over the field.   I think that only made him more enjoyable to watch.   

 

I'm pretty sure smooth just describes how someone looks doing whatever he's doing.   

 

 

I don't about Chandler, but definitely Alworth.  

Did you really expect someone here to answer this for you? 🤷🏻‍♂️ 

 

Yes….. it describes how he looks when he moves.  
 

He has buttery hips.  It’s an adjective that describes his hips as being loose and the opposite of tight.  I’m sure you understand why having loose hips is advantageous for running routes.  It doesn’t make him great per se but it is a plus characteristic for someone running routes and after the catch

Edited August 24, 2023 by NewEra

[Buffalo716]

17 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't have a problem.   I just asked what it means and why it's relevant to a discussion of his talents.   I don't think it's relevant, so I asked people.  And it turns out no one really has been able to tell me.  

 

I said in a post, and I don't think anyone responded:  If smoothness is really relevant to being a good player, why hasn't anyone come up with a way to measure smoothness?  They don't test for smoothness at the combine.   PFF grades players on all different kinds of things.  Football Outsiders, too.  Nobody measures smoothness.  Why not?  Because it can't be measured?   I don't think so.  They don't measure it because smoothness is not something it is important have, at least that's what I think.   People are suggesting that smoothness has something to do with route running, but I've said there are plenty of good route runners who aren't smooth.  

 

One thing I can think about smoothness is that it may lull the defense into a false sense of security, because guys who are smooth don't look like their running hard, don't look like they're cutting sharply.   Every looks easy for them, so they don't look like they're trying.  Rice was like that.   But it didn't take long for the rest of the league to figure out that regardless of how he looked doing it, you had work you tail off to try to cover him.  So, I don't know that smoothness, if it's an asset on the field at all, lasts very long as an asset.  After you get hypnotized once or twice by his smoothness, you wake up.  

 

As I said a few times now.  I watch Shakir and think he's smooth.   That's always been my impression of him.   It doesn't make Shakier a starter.  Jerry Rice was incredibly smooth.   He flowed all over the field.   I think that only made him more enjoyable to watch.   

 

I'm pretty sure smooth just describes how someone looks doing whatever he's doing.   

 

 

I don't about Chandler, but definitely Alworth.  

I don't think so.  I think it's interesting that people have named a half dozen great receivers who were smooth.  Almost none of them are playing today.  OBJ, no.  Hopkins, no.  Maybe one or both guys at Cinci.  Tyreek Hill, no.  They're not smooth.   

 

I really think smooth is about how he looks when he's doing job.   It's not about how well he does his job.  

 

There's a reason why scouts put the word in there... They could easily say nuanced route runner ... But they add smooth or fluid because he moves well... It's a million times better than moving clunky

 

No gloves nick o Leary... Opposite of smooth/fluid mover 

 

No coach wants somebody who runs like a robot... Being a fluid athlete is a bonus... At offensive tackle , WR or DB or TE

 

There's a reason why that word has been in football vocabulary for a hundred years...replace smooth with fluid

 

Everybody wants a fluid athlete on the football field

Edited August 24, 2023 by Buffalo716

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Sucks is way too strong of a word... I traveled to Utah to watch him play and he certainly wasn't as bad as you make it out

 

He is a willing blocker, with good aggressiveness... That alone makes it modest..  blocking is all effort 

 

He's not afraid of contact, and it's something that's easily improvable

 

He wasn't even the worst blocking tight end drafted... Not close 

 

So I can't say he sucks because that's way too harsh.. he's going to be blocking this year in some sets 

 

He has modest potential and he tries hard

 

He won't be moving people but he can keep a hat on them and he's good in space 

 

Every single scout that saw him live came away with a better impression of his blocking skills then before because he has effort 

 

You are entitled to your view and I obviously didn't have the chance to watch him in the flesh. But what I see on tape is a sucky blocker. And I agree he tries. But I see a guy who at this point can't block.

[HappyDays]

19 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I said in a post, and I don't think anyone responded:  If smoothness is really relevant to being a good player, why hasn't anyone come up with a way to measure smoothness?  They don't test for smoothness at the combine.   PFF grades players on all different kinds of things.  Football Outsiders, too.  Nobody measures smoothness.  Why not?  Because it can't be measured?   I don't think so. 

 

No it isn't measurable. When people say Kincaid looks smooth they're not talking about some specific aspect of his player profile, it's just how he looks in everything he does. It's not an objective standard. Like the great Justice Potter Stewart said "I know it when I see it." If I was going to try and define it, it's the way each of his actions on a given play naturally transition into the next without a hint of stuttering. It's the same thing I said in my Kelce comparison earlier in the thread. He easily finds open space in man or zone coverage, catches the ball without trouble, and quickly starts moving in an open direction with the ball in his hand. But to the naked eye all of these actions happen simultaneously. It isn't find the opening in the defense, STOP, catch the ball, STOP, turn, STOP, run with the ball. It's all one fluid action. This particular skill set of his is a combination of physical and mental abilities - the fluidity of his hips plus his soft hands allow him to easily catch the ball and immediately start moving, his natural football instincts and understanding of leverage allow him to easily find an opening in the defense and maximize his run after catch.

 

I could gush about Kincaid all day. I haven't ever been this excited about a Bills rookie.

[Buffalo716]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

You are entitled to your view and I obviously didn't have the chance to watch him in the flesh. But what I see on tape is a sucky blocker. And I agree he tries. But I see a guy who at this point can't block.

Every single scout I've met that ever watched him live came away with a different opinion.. then the pregame norei

 

Sucking means you can't do it... He will be able to block some people in the NFL

 

There's a massive difference between sucking at something and being modest... Again he's not even the worst blocking tight end drafted

 

Suck is a one out of 10

 

He even showed he could pass block some... Not that we're going to ask him to do that much

 

But he did everything he was asked of... He didn't fail

Edited August 24, 2023 by Buffalo716

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said:

Every single scout I've met that ever watched him live came away with a different opinion

 

Sucking means you can't do it... He will be able to block some people in the NFL

.

Tons of scouts use the word modest not suck

 

And tons of scouts might be right. But I can only tell you what I see. I will be the first to hold my hands up if I am wrong. Always have done that in my history here. 

 

But what I see is a guy who is willing as a blocker but who is no good at it.

[Buffalo716]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

And tons of scouts might be right. But I can only tell you what I see. I will be the first to hold my hands up if I am wrong. Always have done that in my history here. 

 

But what I see is a guy who is willing as a blocker but who is no good at it.

Listen I'm not trying to say he's going to like the world on fire

 

But with his effort and intensity he will do whatever job the Bill's ask him to do

 

There's some tight ends in the league who don't have effort blocking... Those guys are lost causes.. he brings high effort and he's not afraid of contact which is promising

 

That Alone will get some results... A 2-3-year project as a blocker but again... The effort will make it happen

 

Because TEs blocking is all about effort 

Edited August 24, 2023 by Buffalo716

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Listen I'm not trying to say he's going to like the world on fire

 

But with his effort and intensity he will do whatever job the Bill's ask him to do

 

There's some tight ends in the league who don't have effort blocking... Those guys are lost causes.. he brings high effort and he's not afraid of contact which is promising

 

And he might get there with NFL coaching in a couple of years time. I am not saying he never will. But if the Bills ask him to do much in the realm of blocking early, especially as a rookie, I don't think that will end well.

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

And he might get there with NFL coaching in a couple of years time. I am not saying he never will. But if the Bills ask him to do much in the realm of blocking early, especially as a rookie, I don't think that will end well.

No I said I think it's a two or three year project as a inline blocker 

 

But he has the traits... Which is mostly effort and intensity

 

Which could show up in some packages... He will never be the blocker dawson is

[NewEra]

12 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

No it isn't measurable. When people say Kincaid looks smooth they're not talking about some specific aspect of his player profile, it's just how he looks in everything he does. It's not an objective standard. Like the great Justice Potter Stewart said "I know it when I see it." If I was going to try and define it, it's the way each of his actions on a given play naturally transition into the next without a hint of stuttering. It's the same thing I said in my Kelce comparison earlier in the thread. He easily finds open space in man or zone coverage, catches the ball without trouble, and quickly starts moving in an open direction with the ball in his hand. But to the naked eye all of these actions happen simultaneously. It isn't find the opening in the defense, STOP, catch the ball, STOP, turn, STOP, run with the ball. It's all one fluid action. This particular skill set of his is a combination of physical and mental abilities - the fluidity of his hips plus his soft hands allow him to easily catch the ball and immediately start moving, his natural football instincts and understanding of leverage allow him to easily find an opening in the defense and maximize his run after catch.

 

I could gush about Kincaid all day. I haven't ever been this excited about a Bills rookie.

Same

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Same

Man, you guys are getting me excited for him. This could be the best $50 bucks I ever spent.

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

He better be good.

 

I just drafted him and starting him on my fantasy team because of all the hype on this board.

 

If he gets 2 catches for 15 yards I'm coming back and letting you all have it !!

[NewEra]

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Man, you guys are getting me excited for him. This could be the best $50 bucks I ever spent.

It will be! 🤣 

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, NewEra said:

Did you really expect someone here to answer this for you? 🤷🏻‍♂️ 

 

Yes….. it describes how he looks when he moves.  
 

He has buttery hips.  It’s an adjective that describes his hips as being loose and the opposite of tight.  I’m sure you understand why having loose hips is advantageous for running routes.  It doesn’t make him great per se but it is a plus characteristic for someone running routes and after the catch

Ooh, that's good.  Thanks.  That's am actual physical characteristic.  I'm sure the scouts consider that.

 

I appreciate that I got an actual explanation.  That's what I wanted.

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

No it isn't measurable. When people say Kincaid looks smooth they're not talking about some specific aspect of his player profile, it's just how he looks in everything he does. It's not an objective standard. Like the great Justice Potter Stewart said "I know it when I see it." If I was going to try and define it, it's the way each of his actions on a given play naturally transition into the next without a hint of stuttering. It's the same thing I said in my Kelce comparison earlier in the thread. He easily finds open space in man or zone coverage, catches the ball without trouble, and quickly starts moving in an open direction with the ball in his hand. But to the naked eye all of these actions happen simultaneously. It isn't find the opening in the defense, STOP, catch the ball, STOP, turn, STOP, run with the ball. It's all one fluid action. This particular skill set of his is a combination of physical and mental abilities - the fluidity of his hips plus his soft hands allow him to easily catch the ball and immediately start moving, his natural football instincts and understanding of leverage allow him to easily find an opening in the defense and maximize his run after catch.

 

I could gush about Kincaid all day. I haven't ever been this excited about a Bills rookie.

This is really good, thanks.  That's what I wanted to know. That's a great explanation of what people mean by the.  Obviously an important package of little physical skills.

 

Thanks.

[Pabstblueribbon]

 

Pretty good breakdown of Kincaid vs Steelers. The whole thing is pretty exciting to watch, but right around the 3min mark they hone in on a play and demonstrate the blend of route running, size, and athleticism that he brings to the table. 

[Shaw66]

Here's a paper about how people are must now beginning to study smoothness.  They say sports trainers recognize it, and it correlates with performance, but they don't really understand it.  It is the loose hips, fluid motion characteristics you guys described.  They don't know how to measure it, but people are working on trying understand it.

 

https://sportsmedicine-open.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s40798-019-0215-y

 

Thanks for getting me started.

 

[Richard Noggin]

On 8/23/2023 at 7:09 PM, BuffaloBillyG said:

He has the potential, for sure. It will be interesting to see how he responds when a defense schemes ways to try and take him out of the gameplan. It will be interesting to see how he develops his game over the season and into next year. There is definitely cause for excitement and optimism with him.

 

I'll also be watching closely how and what his usage is. How often Josh looks for him when there's a big moment in the game or if a play breaks down and Kincaid has to improvise. I don't care about his blocking as much. That's not what he's here for IMO. 

 

I'm also interested to see how he responds to his "welcome to the NFL" moment or moments. Will it drive him to get better or make him question his self confidence? 

 

While I agree he has the potential to be a truly special player in the NFL there is still a road to get there that he has yet to travel.

 

We should all HOPE that defenses actively "scheme ways to try and take him out of the gameplan." Get Allen cookin with his WRs and maybe move some safeties and/or LBs out of their ideal run fits. 

[NewEra]

13 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

We should all HOPE that defenses actively "scheme ways to try and take him out of the gameplan." Get Allen cookin with his WRs and maybe move some safeties and/or LBs out of their ideal run fits. 

It’s going to be huge for our passing game having 2 unstoppable at times targets in Diggs and Kincaid.  Then add Cook out of the backfield as a receiving threat.  Teams are going to be forced to pick their poison.  Bracketing Diggs will result in mismatches vs Kincaid.  I like his chance of winning in the short passing game and I’ll be paying a lot of attention to who is covering him throughout the games/season.  He’s going to destroy LBs

 

 

 

[HardyBoy]

19 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Here's a paper about how people are must now beginning to study smoothness.  They say sports trainers recognize it, and it correlates with performance, but they don't really understand it.  It is the loose hips, fluid motion characteristics you guys described.  They don't know how to measure it, but people are working on trying understand it.

 

https://sportsmedicine-open.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s40798-019-0215-y

 

Thanks for getting me started.

 

 

I think it also is important to note that smoothness is not the same or even more so not the opposite of explosiveness...it's more someone is able to connect a lot of really tiny movements together, where they have control to adjust their movement at any point. Hopefully that makes sense.

 

It almost sounded like you were kind of thinking smooth referred to a lack or explosiveness, which is not the case with Kincaid...he's able to smoothly get his body in a variety of positions from which he can explode with suddenness...that versatility for explosion is something Von Miller has for example. It's how Josh Allen and especially Mahommes are able to adjust arm angle and still throw so effortless while having the ball just explode out of their hands.

 

Once more for good measure: explode

Edited August 25, 2023 by HardyBoy

[Airseven]

23 hours ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

I just drafted him and starting him on my fantasy team because of all the hype on this board.

 

Perhaps I have some investment opportunities for you.

[NewEra]

4 minutes ago, Airseven said:

 

Perhaps I have some investment opportunities for you.

You don’t think Kincaid is worthy of starting in fantasy?

[Airseven]

3 hours ago, NewEra said:

You don’t think Kincaid is worthy of starting in fantasy?

Sure he is. But to base that on what’s been posted here…is…well…

 

Let’s just hope he’s not counting on hybrid Kelce/Kupp numbers. 😂

[NickelCity]

On 8/24/2023 at 7:39 PM, NewEra said:

It’s going to be huge for our passing game having 2 unstoppable at times targets in Diggs and Kincaid.  Then add Cook out of the backfield as a receiving threat.  Teams are going to be forced to pick their poison.  Bracketing Diggs will result in mismatches vs Kincaid.  I like his chance of winning in the short passing game and I’ll be paying a lot of attention to who is covering him throughout the games/season.  He’s going to destroy LBs

 

It's all dependent on the OLine holding up 🤞🤞

[NewEra]

7 minutes ago, NickelCity said:

 

It's all dependent on the OLine holding up 🤞🤞

and Dorsey.  

[Shaw66]

6 hours ago, HardyBoy said:

 

I think it also is important to note that smoothness is not the same or even more so not the opposite of explosiveness...it's more someone is able to connect a lot of really tiny movements together, where they have control to adjust their movement at any point. Hopefully that makes sense.

 

It almost sounded like you were kind of thinking smooth referred to a lack or explosiveness, which is not the case with Kincaid...he's able to smoothly get his body in a variety of positions from which he can explode with suddenness...that versatility for explosion is something Von Miller has for example. It's how Josh Allen and especially Mahommes are able to adjust arm angle and still throw so effortless while having the ball just explode out of their hands.

 

Once more for good measure: explode

Thanks, but no I wasn't confusing the two.  But you make a good point about smoothness facilitates explosiveness.  Not sure I'd put Allen on the list.  I wouldn't call him smooth.  But Miller for sure.

 

Different sport, but Ray Allen was smooth.

 

Thanks.  This discussion was interesting.