Trade Candidates?

[John from Riverside]

I just don’t understand people that want to get rid of trae white almost to the point of hoping that he isn’t as good as it once was

 

Makes no sense

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

I just don’t understand people that want to get rid of trae white almost to the point of hoping that he isn’t as good as it once was

 

Makes no sense

 

I don't think anyone is doing that. Just being realistic. There are two options... Tre is back to or close to his best - in which case he is still here in 2024. Or he isn't - in which case there is no way the Bills are paying him $16.5m next year when a post June cut opens up $10m in cap room. 

[4merper4mer]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think anyone is doing that. Just being realistic. There are two options... Tre is back to or close to his best - in which case he is still here in 2024. Or he isn't - in which case there is no way the Bills are paying him $16.5m next year when a post June cut opens up $10m in cap room. 

You’re not rooting for Tre to fail, but make no mistake, a number of people are.  They need a scapegoat and Tre is the Gabe Davis backup plan for some,  For others he is the prime target.  With Edmunds gone, there is a vacuum for an area to focus negativity.  It was going to be Oliver but then he got signed.  It has to be a reasonably prominent player so guys like Harty are out.  Beane and McD are also prominent enough but not players.  They will get hammered the minute we lose a game.

 

Miller and Allen are immune and Diggs is for now.  Those are really all of the potential candidates so it will focus on Gabe and White.

 

White has been NOTHING but a humble team player with excellent performance from the moment he got here.  He had a tough injury and is fighting his way back.  Personally, I think all the signs are pointing in the right direction.  But if he succeeds, watch out Stef….or Von.

 

Allen is lucky he is the third rail because all this Hollywood crap and his Stay Puft marshmallow man look should really be reserved for post Super Bowl win hangover.

[BADOLBILZ]

11 hours ago, BBFL said:

Do you think if the play quality from his return onward becomes a continuation this year, they try and trade him before value completely diminishes?

Or do you feel he has to just completely bomb to move on?

He’s a fan favorite but hanging onto players who just aren’t performing in a pivotal and vital role isn’t a recipe for success. 

 

He already has no trade value right now,  obviously.     If he doesn't return to All Pro level quality this season his contract will continue to make him untrade-able.   Top CB salaries have stagnated recently so even a 10M base+bonus cap hit would be a significant investment for a 29 year old zone CB.   They could just sign Dane Jackson for less than half that, probably.   And the Tre' White Bills contract has options that are due in March so teams will know that there will be pressure on the Bills to cut him,  which further diminishes his value unless the contract can be seen as a bargain.  

[HIT BY SPIKES]

5 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

I just don’t understand people that want to get rid of trae white almost to the point of hoping that he isn’t as good as it once was

 

Makes no sense

 

None whatsoever.

 

Besides, the Bills are good enough on their own without fan hope of not signing their CBs when they still have some jam left -- Nate Clements, Antoine Winfield Sr., Jabari Greer, Stephon Gilmore....

 

Besides, thinking that Kaiir Elam is ever going to be a #1 CB on a contending NFL team is just plain foolish.

[Warriorspikes51]

3 minutes ago, HIT BY SPIKES said:

 

None whatsoever.

 

Besides, the Bills are good enough on their own without fan hope of not signing their CBs when they still have some jam left -- Nate Clements, Antoine Winfield Sr., Jabari Greer, Stephon Gilmore....

 

Besides, thinking that Kaiir Elam is ever going to be a #1 CB on a contending NFL team is just plain foolish.

I'm not understanding the evaluation on Elam.  Obviously he has work to do.....he's also shown in games that he can make plays.  Playoff game vs Miami, critical INT and played Hill very strong in a few man situations.   Picked off Mahomes in the endzone on a great play.  There's clear talent to work with 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Warriorspikes51

[HIT BY SPIKES]

11 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

I'm not understanding the evaluation on Elam.  Obviously he has work to do.....he's also shown in games that he can make plays.  Playoff game vs Miami, critical INT and played Hill very strong in a few man situations.   Picked off Mahomes in the endzone on a great play.  There's clear talent to work with 

 

You think at this time he will be a # 1CB on a contending NFL team?

 

I may think differently in a year or two, but right now the odds are firmly against it.

 

Not saying he is a bust.

 

He isn't.

 

But he sure is not meeting expectations yet and may need to be held back for some special education.

[SCBills]

52 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

You’re not rooting for Tre to fail, but make no mistake, a number of people are.  They need a scapegoat and Tre is the Gabe Davis backup plan for some,  For others he is the prime target.  With Edmunds gone, there is a vacuum for an area to focus negativity.  It was going to be Oliver but then he got signed.  It has to be a reasonably prominent player so guys like Harty are out.  Beane and McD are also prominent enough but not players.  They will get hammered the minute we lose a game.

 

Miller and Allen are immune and Diggs is for now.  Those are really all of the potential candidates so it will focus on Gabe and White.

 

White has been NOTHING but a humble team player with excellent performance from the moment he got here.  He had a tough injury and is fighting his way back.  Personally, I think all the signs are pointing in the right direction.  But if he succeeds, watch out Stef….or Von.

 

Allen is lucky he is the third rail because all this Hollywood crap and his Stay Puft marshmallow man look should really be reserved for post Super Bowl win hangover.

I think there’s some pent up frustration towards the staff that comes out when talking about Tre. 
 

His comeback was strange.. to the point where even WGR’s pregame bordered on openly calling him out when we were still waiting for his return. 
 

Then he came back and was meh.  Which was disappointing, but to be expected.   
 

If he’s an elite shutdown corner this year, great!  
 

If he’s not .. this is where the frustration comes in…

 

KC just won a Super Bowl in a year that they revamped almost the entire secondary with young guys.  
 

We have a defensive guru head coach who, up to this point, has been given two All-Pro Safeties (some of this should be credited to him), a RD1 CB in Tre and then another RD1 CB a few years later in Elam .. who can’t seem to lock down CB2. 
 

We have a lot of money invested on defense and they’ve let us down ever year in the playoffs.  
 

Will this year be different?  We all hope McDermott’s style will elevate them when it matters. 
 

But until then, a guy like Tre is an easy choice for cost cutting on a team that’s up against it, with a defensive minded HC who should be able to make due with less than top end talent all over the roster.  
 

If they refuse to let Elam or Benford play through mistakes because we require dependable, albeit ordinary play, at CB… don’t he surprised when fans start asking for less investment in the secondary. 

[4merper4mer]

@GunnerBill Since my post there have been six more.  Three are involved in a discussion about Elam.  Two of the other three are negative posts about White.  
 

One of those comes from a guy who has repeatedly called the Bills a poorly run organization while also starting a thread about the Yankees and in it calling them a well run organization.  Yes, you read that right.  The Yankees are well run and the Bills are poorly run.  Obviously a warehouse full of salt grains on that one.  

 

The next is a post with veiled assertions about White’s “poor work ethic” as per WGR.  His performance in his first few weeks off an ACL was “meh”.  We should definitely draw conclusions from that as most people come back from ACLs and immediately succeed.
 

The third….from a poster famous for being negative…..simply calls my post strange.  I don’t know why but maybe it was about White.  The fact that the poster made no effort to refute anything in it is interesting.  
 

Me personally?  I’ll be rooting for White to succeed.  I’m optimistic that he will.  If he fails at least some people will be happy and maybe we can go out and sign the football equivalent of Giancarlo Stanton like a well run organization.

[Dunkirk Donski]

Allen looks smaller this year.  After watching the game this weekend I think Cowherd is right about his accuracy issues.

[Rico]

8 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

@GunnerBill Since my post there have been six more.  Three are involved in a discussion about Elam.  Two of the other three are negative posts about White.  
 

One of those comes from a guy who has repeatedly called the Bills a poorly run organization while also starting a thread about the Yankees and in it calling them a well run organization.  Yes, you read that right.  The Yankees are well run and the Bills are poorly run.  Obviously a warehouse full of salt grains on that one.  

 

The next is a post with veiled assertions about White’s “poor work ethic” as per WGR.  His performance in his first few weeks off an ACL was “meh”.  We should definitely draw conclusions from that as most people come back from ACLs and immediately succeed.
 

The third….from a poster famous for being negative…..simply calls my post strange.  I don’t know why but maybe it was about White.  The fact that the poster made no effort to refute anything in it is interesting.  
 

Me personally?  I’ll be rooting for White to succeed.  I’m optimistic that he will.  If he fails at least some people will be happy and maybe we can go out and sign the football equivalent of Giancarlo Stanton like a well run organization.

Have a cookie.

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

@GunnerBill Since my post there have been six more.  Three are involved in a discussion about Elam.  Two of the other three are negative posts about White.  
 

One of those comes from a guy who has repeatedly called the Bills a poorly run organization while also starting a thread about the Yankees and in it calling them a well run organization.  Yes, you read that right.  The Yankees are well run and the Bills are poorly run.  Obviously a warehouse full of salt grains on that one.  

 

The next is a post with veiled assertions about White’s “poor work ethic” as per WGR.  His performance in his first few weeks off an ACL was “meh”.  We should definitely draw conclusions from that as most people come back from ACLs and immediately succeed.
 

The third….from a poster famous for being negative…..simply calls my post strange.  I don’t know why but maybe it was about White.  The fact that the poster made no effort to refute anything in it is interesting.  
 

Me personally?  I’ll be rooting for White to succeed.  I’m optimistic that he will.  If he fails at least some people will be happy and maybe we can go out and sign the football equivalent of Giancarlo Stanton like a well run organization.

 

I don't see any of those posts as being wishing Tre to fail posts. 

 

The first from @BADOLBILZ is making the contract point I alluded to earlier when replying to another poster. If he doesn't come back to his level trade isn't really an option because of where we are in that contract and how it is constructed. I don't see him saying he hopes Tre fails or saying anything negative about Tre. Indeed, I know he has been a bit of a Tre White homer ever since the pick.

 

The second from @ScottLaw calls your post strange. He certainly doesn't wish for White to fail or say anything negative about him.

 

The third from @SCBills is negative about Tre White. I think he is right to say something odd went on with the recovery and either the Bills and Tre were not on the same page hence the communications got out of whack OR the Bills just did a bad job of communicating. But I don't think he hopes Tre fails. I read it more as him hoping the Bills fail cos he doesn't like the coach. 

[SCBills]

14 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't see any of those posts as being wishing Tre to fail posts. 

 

The first from @BADOLBILZ is making the contract point I alluded to earlier when replying to another poster. If he doesn't come back to his level trade isn't really an option because of where we are in that contract and how it is constructed. I don't see him saying he hopes Tre fails or saying anything negative about Tre. Indeed, I know he has been a bit of a Tre White homer ever since the pick.

 

The second from @ScottLaw calls your post strange. He certainly doesn't wish for White to fail or say anything negative about him.

 

The third from @SCBills is negative about Tre White. I think he is right to say something odd went on with the recovery and either the Bills and Tre were not on the same page hence the communications got out of whack OR the Bills just did a bad job of communicating. But I don't think he hopes Tre fails. I read it more as him hoping the Bills fail cos he doesn't like the coach. 

I don’t at all “wish” for McDermott to fail. 
 

What I do need to see is for there to be a benefit to having a defensive minded HC over an offensive minded HC, in relation to going from program building to a place in the Super Bowl.  
 

Because, so far, it’s been a detriment to Josh and the Offense as we struggled for a year with Dorsey after Daboll left.   And if Dorsey has a great year.. may be faced with the same issue again - hopefully, better prepared. 
 

With McDermott calling the defense this year, I’m hoping to see that benefit realized in that we have a dominant unit that performs at a high level in the postseason.  And as we enter the Allen contract years, can at least be upper half if they have to go young/cheaper on defense but with the ability to step up in the playoffs as KC has done under Spags. 
 

I do hope he succeeds … but this year will go a long way in showing us if he can. (IMO)

[GunnerBill]

26 minutes ago, SCBills said:

I don’t at all “wish” for McDermott to fail. 
 

What I do need to see is for there to be a benefit to having a defensive minded HC over an offensive minded HC, in relation to going from program building to a place in the Super Bowl.  
 

Because, so far, it’s been a detriment to Josh and the Offense as we struggled for a year with Dorsey after Daboll left.   And if Dorsey has a great year.. may be faced with the same issue again - hopefully, better prepared. 
 

With McDermott calling the defense this year, I’m hoping to see that benefit realized in that we have a dominant unit that performs at a high level in the postseason.  And as we enter the Allen contract years, can at least be upper half if they have to go young/cheaper on defense but with the ability to step up in the playoffs as KC has done under Spags. 
 

I do hope he succeeds … but this year will go a long way in showing us if he can. (IMO)

 

Meh. It still feels like you just want an offensive coach in here asap and if this season is the sacrifice so be it.

[Magox]

Many signs pointing to Tre White bridging the gap of what he once was.  
 

Certainly looks a lot better than last year, I find it highly implausible that he gets moved this year.   What team would want to trade for a guy coming off an ACL and a team eager to moving him?

 

He will be with the team this year and if he performs well he will be back again the following year.

[4merper4mer]

2 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

What Bills fan wishes for one of the players of the team they root for to fail? 
 

Makes no ***** sense… and then he talks about needing “scape goats”… scape goats for what? Fans criticize players and the team when they don’t perform or when they don’t win….What am I missing? 

 

 

This is a strange post.

[Einstein's Dog]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think anyone is doing that. Just being realistic. There are two options... Tre is back to or close to his best - in which case he is still here in 2024. Or he isn't - in which case there is no way the Bills are paying him $16.5m next year when a post June cut opens up $10m in cap room. 

IMO, there could be a third option.  That Tre is back or close to back.  But Elam and Benford and the rest of the room show so much, that the difference is minimal.  In other words the CB room is such that the while Tre is still the man, the others are in the same tier, but at a much greater value.

 

This would be using McD's expertise to coach and scheme with a less expensive group of CBs.  

 

 

[BillsfaninChicago]

On 8/10/2023 at 9:44 AM, MikePJ76 said:

 

 

Every team is heavy at the same positions this time of year, wr,rb and secondary and everyone always thinks they can get back these big returns for these guys.  It never happens.

 

 

 

 

Back in the Rex Ryan days we were the only team that had solid depth at team chaplain though.

[SCBills]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Meh. It still feels like you just want an offensive coach in here asap and if this season is the sacrifice so be it.

Yea, let’s waste a prime year of Josh Allen because I want an offensive HC…

 

Now you’re just being obnoxious. 

[GunnerBill]

39 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

IMO, there could be a third option.  That Tre is back or close to back.  But Elam and Benford and the rest of the room show so much, that the difference is minimal.  In other words the CB room is such that the while Tre is still the man, the others are in the same tier, but at a much greater value.

 

This would be using McD's expertise to coach and scheme with a less expensive group of CBs.  

 

 

 

I don't think they'd cut Tre in that situation. I suppose it is a 3rd scenario but not a likely one.

[Einstein's Dog]

13 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think they'd cut Tre in that situation. I suppose it is a 3rd scenario but not a likely one.

Not cut Tre, trade him.

 

And yes, I agree quite unlikely.  I'm just trying to think outside the box to move resources over to WR2.

[Captain Hindsight]

3 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

Not cut Tre, trade him.

 

And yes, I agree quite unlikely.  I'm just trying to think outside the box to move resources over to WR2.

Trading a top ten corner for a number two WR would be massively stupid and should get somebody fired 

[4merper4mer]

41 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

Not cut Tre, trade him.

 

And yes, I agree quite unlikely.  I'm just trying to think outside the box to move resources over to WR2.

Double scapegoat maneuver.  Nice.

[Einstein's Dog]

19 minutes ago, Captain Hindsight said:

Trading a top ten corner for a number two WR would be massively stupid and should get somebody fired 

I don't think you've thought this out.  Top WR's are hard to come by.  Raiders have D Adams/H Renfro and paid $20M for J Meyers.  Tampa has M Evans and C Godwin (and had Gage and Gronk at one time), Chargers have K Allen and M Williams.  That's the type of WR tandem I'm talking about, and they are not cheap.

 

If McD doesn't think he loses much by replacing Tre with Benford, that $10M could go a long ways to improving the offense.  That could be Mike Evans money right there.  

[jwhit34]

To move this discussion in a different direction, in 2024 the Bills have all their picks, an extra 6th and most likely a 3rd round comp pick. Looking at the last few drafts, it's been tough for 6th and 7th rounders to make the team. Picks have been cut, poached off the practice squad, or last a year or two. From the '23 class Nick Broeker probably isn't making it and Justin Shorter is questionable to make the team, at least he is in a battle for the WR6 spot (and probably keep him because of his draft status).

 

Trading a surplus player or two for late round picks sounds very appealing, especially since we know Beane likes to move around in the draft and the extra picks could enable him to do that.  But also remember the last two years he gave up a 4th to move up in the 1st round, so a 6th or 7th is not getting the job done. So it really wouldn't be to draft someone that will help a lot, it may be to move up the draft board.

 

What would be intriguing would be a player and a 6th or 7th for a 4th. I don't know if that deal exists. 

 

I agree that this time of year a lot of fans tend to overvalue some of the perceived depth. I think for the Bills this year the positions where that is true are WR and CB. Legit surplus depth is on DL, but the trade options are limited to Epenesa, Basham and maybe Settle or Ford. They are not dealing Rousseau, Miller, Floyd, D Jones or Oliver. Phillips and Lawson have no trade value. Everyone passed on signing Ford until the Bills signed in June. Beane turned some OL-men into picks but I don't know if that player exists this year. Boettger? No. Edwards? I think they want to keep him. Doyle, VanDemark? Unproven no trade value. Quessenbery? Doubtful trade value but who knows...

 

 

[Captain Hindsight]

2 hours ago, Einstein's Dog said:

I don't think you've thought this out.  Top WR's are hard to come by.  Raiders have D Adams/H Renfro and paid $20M for J Meyers.  Tampa has M Evans and C Godwin (and had Gage and Gronk at one time), Chargers have K Allen and M Williams.  That's the type of WR tandem I'm talking about, and they are not cheap.

 

If McD doesn't think he loses much by replacing Tre with Benford, that $10M could go a long ways to improving the offense.  That could be Mike Evans money right there.  

Top corners are hard to find. Look how much of a difference Sauce Gardner made for the Jets defense. They were ranked 32nd two years ago!

 

Your 3 examples went  a combined 26-27 last year Derek Carr, Justin Herbert and Tom Brady at QB. Not exactly the results we’ve come to expect while having no number 2

[GunnerBill]

15 hours ago, Einstein's Dog said:

I don't think you've thought this out.  Top WR's are hard to come by.  Raiders have D Adams/H Renfro and paid $20M for J Meyers.  Tampa has M Evans and C Godwin (and had Gage and Gronk at one time), Chargers have K Allen and M Williams.  That's the type of WR tandem I'm talking about, and they are not cheap.

 

If McD doesn't think he loses much by replacing Tre with Benford, that $10M could go a long ways to improving the offense.  That could be Mike Evans money right there.  

 

I'd take Diggs and Davis over K Allen and Williams. Keenan isn't what he was and even at his best was never as good as Diggs and I think Gabe and Mike Williams are much more similar than Bills fans think. They are big guys who are decent at running vertical routes but don't get great separation and don't have particularly great catch %s. Williams had his best year in the NFL last year in terms of catch % and drops, but that isn't typical of who he has been. I get it, he has put up two 1,000 yard seasons, and he is a slightly better version of Gabe but he averages about 950 yards and 5 TDs as a #2. Gabe's first year as a #2 he was at 836 and 7 TDs. They aren't a million miles apart. 

14 hours ago, jwhit34 said:

To move this discussion in a different direction, in 2024 the Bills have all their picks, an extra 6th and most likely a 3rd round comp pick. Looking at the last few drafts, it's been tough for 6th and 7th rounders to make the team. Picks have been cut, poached off the practice squad, or last a year or two. From the '23 class Nick Broeker probably isn't making it and Justin Shorter is questionable to make the team, at least he is in a battle for the WR6 spot (and probably keep him because of his draft status).

 

Trading a surplus player or two for late round picks sounds very appealing, especially since we know Beane likes to move around in the draft and the extra picks could enable him to do that.  But also remember the last two years he gave up a 4th to move up in the 1st round, so a 6th or 7th is not getting the job done. So it really wouldn't be to draft someone that will help a lot, it may be to move up the draft board.

 

What would be intriguing would be a player and a 6th or 7th for a 4th. I don't know if that deal exists. 

 

I agree that this time of year a lot of fans tend to overvalue some of the perceived depth. I think for the Bills this year the positions where that is true are WR and CB. Legit surplus depth is on DL, but the trade options are limited to Epenesa, Basham and maybe Settle or Ford. They are not dealing Rousseau, Miller, Floyd, D Jones or Oliver. Phillips and Lawson have no trade value. Everyone passed on signing Ford until the Bills signed in June. Beane turned some OL-men into picks but I don't know if that player exists this year. Boettger? No. Edwards? I think they want to keep him. Doyle, VanDemark? Unproven no trade value. Quessenbery? Doubtful trade value but who knows...

 

 

 

I think we have two extra 6ths, we moved down twice in the draft for next year picks. On the basis we have the comp pick for Tremaine I expect the Bills to be sitting with 10 picks in the 2024 draft as of right now. 

[Einstein's Dog]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I'd take Diggs and Davis over K Allen and Williams. Keenan isn't what he was and even at his best was never as good as Diggs and I think Gabe and Mike Williams are much more similar than Bills fans think. They are big guys who are decent at running vertical routes but don't get great separation and don't have particularly great catch %s. Williams had his best year in the NFL last year in terms of catch % and drops, but that isn't typical of who he has been. I get it, he has put up two 1,000 yard seasons, and he is a slightly better version of Gabe but he averages about 950 yards and 5 TDs as a #2. Gabe's first year as a #2 he was at 836 and 7 TDs. They aren't a million miles apart. 

 

My point with the Chargers wasn't the actual players but that the WR2 is a $20M guy (same w Raiders, Tampa).  The post I responded to was saying someone should get fired if they moved a corner for a top WR2.  That comment doesn't make sense if you compare the money.

 

My reply to you had been the possible movement of a corner if our draft cb picks hit, and they are top 15ish.  Then Tre might become available.  I admitted it was an optimistic long shot.

 

We don't have anything resembling a WR1 if Diggs goes down (much better choices at CB1).  And Davis hasn't really proved himself as WR2 (several CB2s).  The possibility of what amounts to moving Tre for a Chris Godwin/M Evans/T Lockett might be something on Beane's radar.