PBF81 Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 1 hour ago, newcam2012 said: Bingo! I just don't understand the Bills defensive game plan. What in the world did they learn from the 9 min Monday night game? They seemingly did nothing different. That defensive game plan was doomed from the start. You can't tell me coach McD didn't have his hand on that game plan. It was a colossal failure in everyway. However, coaches have to create effective game plans to give their players the best chance to win. The exact opposite happened. Game plan? LOL Was there a game plan? Seriously. "Alright men, we know they're gonna score, let's at least make it look reasonable. Just don't let 'em score a TD on every play, try and keep 'em under 10 yards-per-play. Let 'em catch the ball and give 'em a good cushion, let's be good sports in the interests of character, let's help 'em feel accomplished. We'll lure them into a sense of overconfidence and then Josh will outscore them. Now go get 'em!". 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 12 hours ago, Figster said: I guess we all choose our data points. I'll remember him more like this... 1 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 42 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said: I guess we all choose our data points. I'll remember him more like this... We played a remarkable slate of bad quarterbacks that year iirc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WyoAZBillfan Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 48 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said: I guess we all choose our data points. I'll remember him more like this... I feel both can be true. As been stated last playoff game was a team failure, which is how I see it. good luck LF in future endeavors. Go Bills!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Water Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 (edited) 2 hours ago, H2o said: Was just on the PFT website and caught some discussion between Michael Smith, Michael Holly, and a guy named Mike Jones about Leslie Frazier on "Brother From Another". I hate how everything is made into a race topic these days, but that's the first thing they try to drag into it. They were saying he should have gotten interviews during this HC hiring cycle, something is fishy about all of this, and asking if he possibly stepped away because he was frustrated to be passed over. Saying that coaches talk about being "scarred irreparably by being passed over" by NFL teams. Seriously? That's where they're trying to take this? These guys must be completely oblivious to what has taken place the last 2-3 years in the Playoffs with his defenses. ESPECIALLY the 13 seconds debacle, and then how the defense was completely clowned by Cincy in the Divisional round this year. There is a willful level of ignorance with some of these discussions that leads to more ignorance being repeated by other people, all because these fools took it there in the first place. Just dumb. I mean, there are a couple of points. HC hired this season Broncos - retread Sean Payton Cards - Eagles DC Jon Gannon Texans - 49ers DC DeMeco Ryans Colts - Eagles OC Sean Steichen Panthers - retread Frank Reich 2 retreads, 2 young DCs, 1 young OC HC hired last season Saints - Saints DC Dennis Allen, retread of failed Raiders HC Giants - Bills OC Brian Daboll Bears - Colts DC Matt Eberflus Broncos - Green Bay OC Nathaniel Hackett Dolphins - 49ers OC Mike McDaniel LV Raiders -NE OC Josh McDaniels, retread of failed Denver HC and failed Rams OC Vikings - LA Rams OC Kevin O'Connell Jaguars - (out of football) Doug Pederson, retread of Eagles HC who failed to develop Carson Wentz but won a Superbowl and a WC game with Nick Foles Texans - Texans DC Lovie Smith, retread Bucs and Bears HC. With the Bears, Smith managed a Div, Conf, and SB appearance w/ QB Orton, Cutler, and Grossman 4 retreads (counting Allen as a retread), 1 middle-aged DC, 3 young OCs So it's clearly not true that only hot young offensive coaches are being hired. 6 of the HC hires of the last 2 seasons are re-tread HCs, and 5 of 14 were defensive coaches. However, only 2 of the 6 retreads hired were defensive coaches. Leaving aside the "race" question, I think it's fair for Frazier to look at his accomplishments and say that he's shown at least as much as other coaches who got a 2nd chance. What did Josh McDaniel do in Denver? 8-8, 4-12. What did Dennis Allen do with the Raiders? Two 4 and 12 seasons, one of them with Carson Palmer who moved to AZ and promptly showed that he could still play at a high level. As DC, Allen led a couple top defenses (#4 and #5) with NO but they fizzed in the playoffs. Meanwhile, Frazier has had 3 #1 or #2 defenses in his 6 years, and two of the years he didn't were rebuilding. As a HC, he took the Vikes to 10-5 and a playoff appearance with Ponder as his QB. Obviously, he'd get more looks if his D had performed better for the last 13 seconds last season and in the Cincy game this season, but failure of his defense to perform in a playoff game doesn't seem to have been a bar to Dennis Allen. So why is that? I'm not saying "race" is the answer, but I think it would be naive to think that it doesn't factor in. The owners of NFL teams are, for the most part, old white guys, and for the most part, all of us (black white M F) are simply more comfortable with people who remind us of ourselves in some way. Mostly we aren't even consciously aware of this kind of bias. It wouldn't be a surprise to me if that question weighed on Frazier, as another season with a top ranked D and a playoff win apparently failed to get him so much as a phone call, while the Broncos traded away what? to get Payton out of retirement. I would imagine there is an element of frustration there. It's common advice for guys who have not made it as HC to take a year off before taking another position, so that they can be sure they have time to do a thorough "lessons learned". That might apply to Frazier, as well. As an immediate reason to step away and at this time, I'm not sure. I would guess, that either there was going to be a change in the defense that he wasn't comfortable with - Joe Danna I think was brought in from Houston and Al Holcomb, whose longest experience was as LB coach of the Panthers, in part because the Bills want to utilize their safeties and LB a bit differently. Maybe Frazier isn't comfortable with that? It's also possible that McDermott decided that he was going to call defensive plays next season, and Frazier understandably sees that as a demotion. Then there's the possibility that there are medical or family reasons. After listening to Beane's entire presser, I personally think that is less likely. The whole bit about he doesn't want to retire and Beane isn't sure if he'll be coaching with the Bills in 2024 just doesn't sound like a guy who asked for leave for those reasons, but that's entirely a personal opinion. Edited March 1 by Beck Water 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideNine Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 57 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said: I guess we all choose our data points. I'll remember him more like this... We have fielded some very competitive defenses, particularly when Frazier had everyone healthy. I do feel like there are times you need to shake things up particularly when our defenses have come up so small in so many playoff games against top-tier offenses. I won't paint all of Frazier's contributions to the Bills with just that one negative brush - he has been good for us, BUT we have to figure out how our defense can be more competitive in those playoff games to be able to get past the Bengals and the Chiefs. At the end of the day, that has got to be the focus of OBD leadership. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyBillsFan Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 17 minutes ago, WideNine said: We have fielded some very competitive defenses, particularly when Frazier had everyone healthy. But rarely against superior offenses. Frazier's defenses could shut down average to weak offenses to a degree that seldom happens in the current NFL. Hence the high regular season rankings. But against the top QB's & offenses, particularly in the playoffs, the story was not the same. For sure Frazier had Jackson & the Ravens figured out and he gets an A+ for that. Otherwise the failings of his defense at key points against top offenses was a recurring theme. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 3 hours ago, HappyDays said: Chris Jones is incredible. But you can't convince me that their back 7 is more talented than our back 7. Chris Jones alone did not hold the Bengals to 20 points. Their game plan on defense was completely different. They pressed the WRs to give their guys a chance to disrupt the timing and they sent every pass rush concept they had to keep Burrow guessing. They got burned a couple times but they also had two interceptions and knocked Burrow around. Even if we had Chris Jones I don't think it would have mattered. Our game plan made it easy pitch and catch. You play completely different when you know the DL will get home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyBillsFan Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 3 hours ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said: We scored 10 points. So... maybe it was a total team collapse? It was a total team collapse. But it was also ANOTHER example of an elite QB and powerful offense having their way with a Frazier coached defense in the playoffs. Had the defense played lights out maybe we win that game 16 - 13. But it didn't. In fact at key points in that game - at the start and after both Bills scores - the defense went to sleep and allowed long time consuming scoring drives to happen. And for the record the offense played lights out in BOTH of last years playoff games and yet we went 1 - 1 thanks to the defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharky7337 Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 1 hour ago, PBF81 said: Game plan? LOL Was there a game plan? Seriously. "Alright men, we know they're gonna score, let's at least make it look reasonable. Just don't let 'em score a TD on every play, try and keep 'em under 10 yards-per-play. Let 'em catch the ball and give 'em a good cushion, let's be good sports in the interests of character, let's help 'em feel accomplished. We'll lure them into a sense of overconfidence and then Josh will outscore them. Now go get 'em!". They didn't even want to adjust their gameplan. Mc Dermot said in an interview that week that he was surprised they had to go back and tweak anything at all... it's on one of the interviews... when I heard that I was like oh gosh... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 (edited) 12 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said: But rarely against superior offenses. Frazier's defenses could shut down average to weak offenses to a degree that seldom happens in the current NFL. Hence the high regular season rankings. But against the top QB's & offenses, particularly in the playoffs, the story was not the same. For sure Frazier had Jackson & the Ravens figured out and he gets an A+ for that. Otherwise the failings of his defense at key points against top offenses was a recurring theme. Even the best defenses in football very rarely now "shut down" superior offenses. It is just not the game anymore. The Bills are hardly alone in that. San Francisco were the #1 defense in football this year. Gave up 31 to the Eagles in the playoffs (and could have been more had Philly needed to score again). The Eagles #2 defense gave up 38 in the Superbowl (okay a scoop and score in there, but counter that with the Chiefs kneeled away a certain TD at the end). You can't win the Superbowl shutting down top offenses now. You might have one game in a post season where you do it... might. But to make a deep post season run you are going to have to win on offense. Which does get us to the point where you and I have a note of agreement. The Bills need to both allocate more resources to their offense and do a better job of talent evaluation on offense (on the line in particular). Because even the top defenses in football, when faced with the top offenses, are going to give up 30 more often than not. You gotta win on offense. It is also why blaming the defense for Cincy and giving the atrocious offensive display a pass won't wash. The Bills are going nowhere in the playoffs whoever the coach is, whatever the defense does, if they can't execute better offensively. Edited March 1 by GunnerBill 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBF81 Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 1 minute ago, Sharky7337 said: They didn't even want to adjust their gameplan. Mc Dermot said in an interview that week that he was surprised they had to go back and tweak anything at all... it's on one of the interviews... when I heard that I was like oh gosh... McD says almost nothing in most of his pressers. He's not forthcoming, even with this Frasier thing. Did Frasier's contract end and not renewed? I mean who in this league gets to decide to step away from a Coordinator position for what essentially amounts to a sabatical? I've never heard of this. "We'll have to watch the video and adjust." Sure Sean. We don't even adjust to our own reasons for success on the field in any given game. "Hey, the run's working great." ... "Yeah, let's abandon that and let Josh do everything again." Everything seems shrouded in mystery with this team. It's the least forthcoming with information for the paying fans side of the business (or media part of the business) that I ever recall at OBD. I mean we've had coaches that probably should have shut up during their pressers but didn't. We can't get anything at all from these guys. I don't see this lack of communication ending well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newcam2012 Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: Yeah, as long as you throw out the other three regular seasons of games and the playoff games in those years where they were good, and you only include the two against Mahomes when we didn't have a single really effective pass rusher and the one against Burrow with a wave of injuries putting most of our best players out or shades of themselves, including DaQuan and Von gone ... yeah, as long as you only look at those, it doesn't look good. You're also throwing out the big picture. You're going out of your way to cater to your confirmation bias and only look at things that lead to the conclusion you're looking for. It's one of the best blueprints for flawed thinking that humanity working in concert have ever found. The offense wasn't nearly as injured in that Bengals game. They sucked too. How come you're not raving at them? They were pretty healthy. Of course analysts are saying they may regress. That's true every season. Are Cosell, Bucky Brooks, Florio or Sims predicting they'll regress? Can you produce some links showing that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 13 hours ago, Beck Water said: At least on this forum, there seems to be a sizeable and vocal contingent who do not respect Frazier....examples: I'm not saying these aren't fair points, but people seem to forget that he did run a defense that was consistently good and GOT us to the playoffs. Nope. Haven't forgotten that. But he's consistently been one of the main problems in our last game of the season for 4 consecutive years. I think Joe Marino captures the "we're grateful to Leslie Frazier, but time to move on" sentiment 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 8 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Even the best defenses in football very rarely now "shut down" superior offenses. It is just not the game anymore. The Bills are hardly alone in that. San Francisco were the #1 defense in football this year. Gave up 31 to the Eagles in the playoffs (and could have been more had Philly needed to score again). The Eagles #2 defense gave up 38 in the Superbowl (okay a scoop and score in there, but counter that with the Chiefs kneeled away a certain TD at the end). You can't win the Superbowl shutting down top offenses now. You might have one game in a post season where you do it... might. But to make a deep post season run you are going to have to win on offense. Which does get us to the point where you and I have a note of agreement. The Bills need to both allocate more resources to their offense and do a better job of talent evaluation on offense (on the line in particular). Because even the top defenses in football, when faced with the top offenses, are going to give up 30 more often than not. You gotta win on offense. It is also why blaming the defense for Cincy and giving the atrocious offensive display a pass won't wash. The Bills are going nowhere in the playoffs whoever the coach is, whatever the defense does, if they can't execute better offensively. LMFAO at saying 'The niners defense gave up 31' and following that up with 'giving the atrocious offensive display a pass won't wash' 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'm Spartacus Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 24 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said: For sure Frazier had Jackson & the Ravens figured out and he gets an A+ for that. Otherwise the failings of his defense at key points against top offenses was a recurring theme. It's also possible that the defensive squad was jacked up to shut down Lamar, and played an inspired game regardless of Leslie Frazier's game plan. Let's not forget the players play the game regardless of scheme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 19 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: LMFAO at saying 'The niners defense gave up 31' and following that up with 'giving the atrocious offensive display a pass won't wash' They are two separate points. The 49ers had an atrocious offensive display as well on their 4th or 5th Quarterback or whatever he was. But regardless, the 49ers were going to have to outscore the Eagles. That is the point. 34 minutes ago, PBF81 said: McD says almost nothing in most of his pressers. He's not forthcoming, even with this Frasier thing. Did Frasier's contract end and not renewed? I mean who in this league gets to decide to step away from a Coordinator position for what essentially amounts to a sabatical? I've never heard of this. Jim Schwartz did it like 2 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBF81 Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Schwartz did it like 2 years ago. Schwartz resigned. Has Frasier resigned? If so then I missed that part of it. Resigning is resigning, "stepping away for a year" is not resigning. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 1 minute ago, PBF81 said: Schwartz resigned. Has Frasier resigned? If so then I missed that part of it. Resigning is resigning, "stepping away for a year" is not resigning. The difference is Schwartz was under contract. Leslie isn't. But he resigned to step away from the sport and take a year out and was very clear that was what he was doing. He didn't resign and then see if there were other job options. He resigned to take a year out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: They are two separate points. The 49ers had an atrocious offensive display as well on their 4th or 5th Quarterback or whatever he was. But regardless, the 49ers were going to have to outscore the Eagles. That is the point. Jim Schwartz did it like 2 years ago. The actual point is that as far as levels of offensive atrocities go, the Niners defense actually had an excuse to give up 31. And they still held the Eagles under 270 total yards and 5/15 on third down. The Niners defense did decently operating under much worse conditions than the Bills defense. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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