Leslie Frazier "taking a year off from coaching" per Bills PR

[TheyCallMeAndy]

30 minutes ago, I'm Spartacus said:

It's also possible that the defensive squad was jacked up to shut down Lamar, and played an inspired game regardless of Leslie Frazier's game plan. Let's not forget the players play the game regardless of scheme.

Are you saying they were not jacked up to play the other games?

[Chaos]

48 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

The Bills are going nowhere in the playoffs whoever the coach is, whatever the defense does, if they can't execute better offensively. 

I think the 13 seconds debacle demonstrated beyond question that our offense is good enough to get to the Championship game. 

[colin]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

I mean, there are a couple of points.

 

HC hired this season

Broncos - retread Sean Payton

Cards - Eagles DC Jon Gannon

Texans - 49ers DC DeMeco Ryans

Colts - Eagles OC Sean Steichen

Panthers - retread Frank Reich

 

2 retreads, 2 young DCs, 1 young OC

 

HC hired last season

Saints - Saints DC Dennis Allen, retread of failed Raiders HC

Giants - Bills OC Brian Daboll

Bears - Colts DC Matt Eberflus

Broncos - Green Bay OC Nathaniel Hackett

Dolphins - 49ers OC Mike McDaniel

LV Raiders -NE OC Josh McDaniels, retread of failed Denver HC and failed Rams OC

Vikings - LA Rams OC Kevin O'Connell

Jaguars - (out of football) Doug Pederson, retread of Eagles HC who failed to develop Carson Wentz but won a Superbowl and a WC game with Nick Foles

Texans - Texans DC Lovie Smith, retread Bucs and Bears HC.   With the Bears, Smith managed a Div, Conf, and SB appearance w/ QB Orton, Cutler, and Grossman

 

4 retreads (counting Allen as a retread), 1 middle-aged DC, 3 young OCs

 

So it's clearly not true that only hot young offensive coaches are being hired.  6 of the HC hires of the last 2 seasons are re-tread HCs, and 5 of 14 were defensive coaches.  However, only 2 of the 6 retreads hired were defensive coaches.

 

Leaving aside the "race" question, I think it's fair for Frazier to look at his accomplishments and say that he's shown at least as much as other coaches who got a 2nd chance.  What did Josh McDaniel do in Denver?  8-8, 4-12.  What did Dennis Allen do with the Raiders?  Two 4 and 12 seasons, one of them with Carson Palmer who moved to AZ and promptly showed that he could still play at a high level.  As DC, Allen led a couple top defenses (#4 and #5) with NO but they fizzed in the playoffs.

 

Meanwhile, Frazier has had 3 #1 or #2 defenses in his 6 years, and two of the years he didn't were rebuilding.  As a HC, he took the Vikes to 10-5 and a playoff appearance with Ponder as his QB.  Obviously, he'd get more looks if his D had performed better for the last 13 seconds last season and in the Cincy game this season, but failure of his defense to perform in a playoff game doesn't seem to have been a bar to Dennis Allen.

 

So why is that?  I'm not saying "race" is the answer, but I think it would be naive to think that it doesn't factor in.  The owners of NFL teams are, for the most part, old white guys, and for the most part, all of us (black white M F) are simply more comfortable with people who remind us of ourselves in some way.  Mostly we aren't even consciously aware of this kind of bias.

 

It wouldn't be a surprise to me if that question weighed on Frazier, as another season with a top ranked D and a playoff win apparently failed to get him so much as a phone call, while the Broncos traded away what? to get Payton out of retirement.  I would imagine there is an element of frustration there.  It's common advice for guys who have not made it as HC to take a year off before taking another position, so that they can be sure they have time to do a thorough "lessons learned".  That might apply to Frazier, as well.

 

As an immediate reason to step away and at this time, I'm not sure.  I would guess, that either there was going to be a change in the defense that he wasn't comfortable with - Joe Danna I think was brought in from Houston and Al Holcomb, whose longest experience was as LB coach of the Panthers, in part because the Bills want to utilize their safeties and LB a bit differently.  Maybe Frazier isn't comfortable with that? 

 

It's also possible that McDermott decided that he was going to call defensive plays next season, and Frazier understandably sees that as a demotion. 

 

Then there's the possibility that there are medical or family reasons.  After listening to Beane's entire presser, I personally think that is less likely.  The whole bit about he doesn't want to retire and Beane isn't sure if he'll be coaching with the Bills in 2024 just doesn't sound like a guy who asked for leave for those reasons, but that's entirely a personal opinion.
 

 

i think you are onto something with what happened within the bills org, but i think LF won't get HC looks because like KC's OC, he's seen as not really being the guy who runs the D, or at the very least that he doesn't run the D well without the influence of his HC.  I think that's correct, and i think w mcd being more involved we will look better in 2023

[HappyDays]

51 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

You can't win the Superbowl shutting down top offenses now. You might have one game in a post season where you do it... might. But to make a deep post season run you are going to have to win on offense. 

 

I'm not asking us to shut down the Bengals or the Chiefs. I'm asking to at least slow them down and make it difficult. Get some punches in. Don't just sit back and let them bleed you out slowly. The Chiefs didn't shut down the Bengals, but they held them to 20 points in a game where their offense wasn't performing at its best. They got two interceptions and several sacks. That's a far cry from 27 points scored in 3 quarters. And yes we had injuries and general talent issues in that game, but you can't honestly say the Chiefs defense was that much more talented than us across the board even with our injuries. Coaching was the biggest difference.

 

51 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

It is also why blaming the defense for Cincy and giving the atrocious offensive display a pass won't wash. The Bills are going nowhere in the playoffs whoever the coach is, whatever the defense does, if they can't execute better offensively. 

 

I don't see anyone giving the offense a pass. The defense couldn't have possibly held the Bengals below 10 points, no question. But likewise to what you're saying the offense's awful performance doesn't excuse the defenses's awful performance. And the defense making it look easy for our opponent is a 3 year trend now. At a certain point the coaching has to be held accountable when there are wide open receivers all over the field and no hint of a pass rush.

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, Chaos said:

I think the 13 seconds debacle demonstrated beyond question that our offense is good enough to get to the Championship game. 

And the defense isn't.

[Chaos]

53 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

  I mean who in this league gets to decide to step away from a Coordinator position for what essentially amounts to a sabatical?  I've never heard of this

This seems like a built in distraction for the entire 2023 season.  I am really not able to make sense the concept of this sabatical. 

[newcam2012]

5 minutes ago, Chaos said:

I think the 13 seconds debacle demonstrated beyond question that our offense is good enough to get to the Championship game. 

Did you see the offense against Cinci? They were basically a very healthy unit. 

 

The old saying is you are only as good as your last game. Beane has used this phrase several times. However, he failed to give that massage in his end of season presser. Hmmm...

[Chaos]

Just now, newcam2012 said:

Did you see the offense against Cinci? They were basically a very healthy unit. 

 

The old saying is you are only as good as your last game. Beane has used this phrase several times. However, he failed to give that massage in his end of season presser. Hmmm...

I did not say they were good enough to get to every championship game.  The defense has not demontrated the ability to carry a team that far.  Imagine if the headline of this article was "Josh Allen to take a year off".   Zero people would say "time for the defense to shine and take us to the promised land"

[ScottLaw]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Even the best defenses in football very rarely now "shut down" superior offenses. It is just not the game anymore. The Bills are hardly alone in that. San Francisco were the #1 defense in football this year. Gave up 31 to the Eagles in the playoffs (and could have been more had Philly needed to score again). The Eagles #2 defense gave up 38 in the Superbowl (okay a scoop and score in there, but counter that with the Chiefs kneeled away a certain TD at the end). You can't win the Superbowl shutting down top offenses now. You might have one game in a post season where you do it... might. But to make a deep post season run you are going to have to win on offense. 

 

Which does get us to the point where you and I have a note of agreement. The Bills need to both allocate more resources to their offense and do a better job of talent evaluation on offense (on the line in particular). Because even the top defenses in football, when faced with the top offenses, are going to give up 30 more often than not. You gotta win on offense. 

 

It is also why blaming the defense for Cincy and giving the atrocious offensive display a pass won't wash. The Bills are going nowhere in the playoffs whoever the coach is, whatever the defense does, if they can't execute better offensively. 

You’re seemingly giving the defense a complete pass. Meanwhile the Bengals defense did a terrific job against our offense and have done A MUCH better job against KC in the post season than we have. 

[PBF81]

14 hours ago, Beck Water said:

At least on this forum, there seems to be a sizeable and vocal contingent who do not respect Frazier....examples:

 

Part of the problem is that McD won't come clean on who's responsible in the coaching ranks and whose D it is to orchestrate.  

 

Which is fine, and ultimately it falls back on him.  But when clear issues exist, as they do, and little if anything is done except fire the Safeties Coach, which was laughable, and without any further clarification by McD, presumably in his own personal interests, then it only leaves room for speculation, but based upon what's reasonable.  Frasier was the DC for example, so if he's merely a fixture of sorts without any function.  

 

Either way, it's difficult to respect our playoff defense.  How that manifests itself falls upon McD's leadership, or lack thereof in this instance.  

 

[GunnerBill]

27 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

The actual point is that as far as levels of offensive atrocities go, the Niners defense actually had an excuse to give up 31. And they still held the Eagles under 270 total yards and 5/15 on third down. 

 

The Niners defense did decently operating under much worse conditions than the Bills defense. 

 

And still gave up 31. You have to score points now in the playoffs. The Bills defense sucked against Cincy. No question. But if you can only score 10 that won't matter.

23 minutes ago, Chaos said:

I think the 13 seconds debacle demonstrated beyond question that our offense is good enough to get to the Championship game. 

 

Last year the defense and coaching blew it. No question. In 2022 that is not what happened. 

21 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I'm not asking us to shut down the Bengals or the Chiefs. I'm asking to at least slow them down and make it difficult. Get some punches in. Don't just sit back and let them bleed you out slowly. The Chiefs didn't shut down the Bengals, but they held them to 20 points in a game where their offense wasn't performing at its best. They got two interceptions and several sacks. That's a far cry from 27 points scored in 3 quarters. And yes we had injuries and general talent issues in that game, but you can't honestly say the Chiefs defense was that much more talented than us across the board even with our injuries. Coaching was the biggest difference.

 

 

I don't see anyone giving the offense a pass. The defense couldn't have possibly held the Bengals below 10 points, no question. But likewise to what you're saying the offense's awful performance doesn't excuse the defenses's awful performance. And the defense making it look easy for our opponent is a 3 year trend now. At a certain point the coaching has to be held accountable when there are wide open receivers all over the field and no hint of a pass rush.

 

Not excusing the defensive performance vs Cincy. Haven't done that once. The whole team played its worst game of the year. You do that in the playoffs you lose.

 

It is what it is.

[phypon]

Glad he's gone.  He needed to go last year.  I do not feel bad for him, he's a millionaire.  Couldn't get the job done, see ya.  Have a happy life.  There is a reason he wasn't a HC candidate.  All good, let it go.  

 

S McD will be next.  I'd take Chan or Wade over this staff any day.  They did more with less.  Not sure why people think that LF was something he's not.  Game passed him by years ago.  Without an offense that put up points and made the opposing team one dimensional, his defense folded like a cheap suit.

Edited March 1 by phypon

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

You’re seemingly giving the defense a complete pass. Meanwhile the Bengals defense did a terrific job against our offense and have done A MUCH better job against KC in the post season than we have. 

 

No I am not. The defense sucked against Cincy. Said that multiple times. And indeed when someone tried to make the "only 13 points after the first two drives" point yesterday I rejected that. The Bengals could have kept scoring if they needed to. 

 

But the point I was responding to was "the Bills don't hold down superior offenses." I agree. They don't. Nor do other good defenses. The league isn't built that way. The defense has to play better than it did vs Cincy. But we have to score more than 30 in every playoff game. Especially in this AFC with these QBs on the other side. Unless we are doing that consistently the defense isn't gonna matter a ton.

[HappyDays]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

Not excusing the defensive performance vs Cincy. Haven't done that once. The whole team played its worst game of the year. You do that in the playoffs you lose.

 

But it's a trend for the defense. Every year in the playoffs it's the same. Play passive and wait for the offense to make a mistake. It just isn't working. The whole philosophy needs to change.

 

On offense Dorsey needs a philosophical change too. He needs to call games LESS aggressively. Be willing to stay patient. It was his first year on the job so I'm hoping he learned enough to improve. Frazier has been in the game for too long. At this point he is what he is.

 

I just hope McDermott is more willing to press the issue in playoff games. What have we got to lose? Our current philosophy isn't working. They can stick to that philosophy throughout the regular season, it's proven to be effective. In the playoffs against other championship caliber teams they have to try something different.

[BuffaL0L0k0]

On 1/30/2023 at 6:16 PM, ticketssince61 said:

It is great to pay your up and coming QB on the cheap rookie deal (Hurts, Burrow,...) and fine to pay your superstar QB (Mahomes, Allen, ...).

 

The problem is when you overpay a QB that is good but not great (Derek Carr, Kirk Cousins, Kyler Murray), and you are stuck paying them elite QB $ without the elite QB results.

 

You are then in the quandary of "he's not good enough but there is nobody else out there that is better"

'nuf said and well put on your part...thanks!

9 minutes ago, phypon said:

Glad he's gone.  He needed to go last year.  I do not feel bad for him, he's a millionaire.  Couldn't get the job done, see ya.  Have a happy life.  There is a reason he wasn't a HC candidate.  All good, let it go.  

 

S McD will be next.  I'd take Chan or Wade over this staff any day.  They did more with less.  Not sure why people think that LF was something he's not.  Game passed him by years ago.  Without an offense that put up points and made the opposing team one dimensional, his defense folded like a cheap suit.

more with less is still a mute point to me, as it was reflected in a zero playoff appearances cobined for those regimes ...

Edited March 1 by BuffaL0L0k0

[PBF81]

37 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The difference is Schwartz was under contract. Leslie isn't. But he resigned to step away from the sport and take a year out and was very clear that was what he was doing. He didn't resign and then see if there were other job options. He resigned to take a year out. 

 

First of all, you didn't say that in your original statement, so then it's not the same, and my original ascertion is correct, namely that this is unprecedented. 

 

I haven't even read that either, that his contract ended.  From the best that I've seen we don't know this as a fact.  Plenty of people have been asking.  Where are you getting this info?  

 

Perhaps I missed it, can you provide a link where it formally states that he's no longer under contract, namely that his existing contract ended?  That would be great info to have and yes, it would definitely change things ... slightly.  

 

There's still this, that if that's the case, then why is he under the impression that he can return here whenever he's finished with his little vacation, and continue to be the DC, which is what we've read.  Schwartz, as you cite, went to a different team in a different role after his resigning.  This entire travesty with Frasier appears to revolve around pressure being exerted on the team and more specifically McD.  

 

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

But it's a trend for the defense. Every year in the playoffs it's the same. Play passive and wait for the offense to make a mistake. It just isn't working. The whole philosophy needs to change.

 

On offense Dorsey needs a philosophical change too. He needs to call games LESS aggressively. Be willing to stay patient. It was his first year on the job so I'm hoping he learned enough to improve. Frazier has been in the game for too long. At this point he is what he is.

 

I just hope McDermott is more willing to press the issue in playoff games. What have we got to lose? Our current philosophy isn't working. They can stick to that philosophy throughout the regular season, it's proven to be effective. In the playoffs against other championship caliber teams they have to try something different.

 

Beyond the fact that I do think they need to press more with their corners (the reason they didn't this year was they didn't trust their safeties at all, but I agree they could have been braver) I don't think they need to tweak much schematically. They need their front 4 to create more pressure and they need to execute the defense better. They made bad defensive mistakes against Cincy. Big communication breakdown plays. You can't have that in the post season against other top 5 or 6 teams and get away with it. 

[HappyDays]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

But the point I was responding to was "the Bills don't hold down superior offenses." I agree. They don't. Nor do other good defenses.

 

But they do. This past Super Bowl was an anomaly. Usually the winner is in fact holding their opponent below their season average for points scored. I already mentioned that the Chiefs defense held the Bengals offense to 20 points. And it's not like the Chiefs defense was super talented. They were below average in the regular season. But in critical moments their coaching/scheme allowed them to make difference making plays when it counted. The Chiefs game plan on defense in that game was nothing like our game plan. You can't just ignore that and blame it all on talent.

[phypon]

7 minutes ago, BuffaL0L0k0 said:

'nuf said and well put on your part...thanks!

more with less is still a mute point to me, as it was reflected in a zero playoff appearances cobined for those regimes ...

First of all its "moot", not mute.  Second of all, give them JA.

[PBF81]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

But they do. This past Super Bowl was an anomaly. Usually the winner is in fact holding their opponent below their season average for points scored. I already mentioned that the Chiefs defense held the Bengals offense to 20 points. And it's not like the Chiefs defense was super talented. They were below average in the regular season. But in critical moments their coaching/scheme allowed them to make difference making plays when it counted. The Chiefs game plan on defense in that game was nothing like our game plan. You can't just ignore that and blame it all on talent.

 

And honestly, arguing whether other teams do it or not is besides the point.  It's how we do it, not the fact that it happens, ... again, not once, but regularly now in the playoffs unless we play offensively bereft teams like NE with Jones.  

 

I mean honestly, and we still haven't gotten an explanation for "13 Seconds" or the sihtshow that was the Bengals game.  I mean how is that defended?  What, yeah, we thought that the best approach there was to hand them 40 yards and hope that their K, who would have been under extreme duress, kicked Wide Right.  

 

The lack of transparency, or the "cover-up" we can call it, is just as troubling as what actually happened, particularly since absolutely nothing seems to have changed, and McD's promises of "learning from it and improving" simply haven't happened.