Stadium Renderings Part 2

[Einstein]

14 minutes ago, teef said:

  just because the esthetic isn't what some wanted, there's immediate crying.  

 

If others are “whiny men” for not liking what nearly $1B of taxpayer money is getting us, what does it make you for crying about others crying? A super whiny man!?

[mrags]

3 minutes ago, Figster said:

What does this overhang accomplish, If anything. A safety hazard in the winter from above IMO.

It’ll be angles so that the snow ice and rain runs backwards I’d imagine. But you’re pretty much right. Doesn’t cover fans from most of those elements. It will help in the fight against the wind I’d imagine. Whoopty doo 

[Kaenon]

The shadows are going to be slightly annoying for everyone during gameplay with that roof.

[JoPoy88]

12 minutes ago, Figster said:

What does this overhang accomplish, If anything. A safety hazard in the winter from above IMO.

It’s not going to slope inwards towards the seats below bud.

[teef]

Just now, Figster said:

They go by what they are shown so far.

sure.  which are renderings, which are limited.  we have people immediately assuming what's there and what's not.  fine, but to be angry about something you aren't even sure is included at this point?  we have another poster already upset about money not being properly used!   it's far to early to have meltdowns over something we're not even sure about yet.

 

also, let's face it...not everyone is going to be satisfied, yet i can almost guarantee what posters are going to be the loudest about it.

8 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

If others are “whiny men” for not liking what nearly $1B of taxpayer money is getting us, what does it make you for crying about others crying? A super whiny man!?

einstein, you're already questioning what the money is being used for without having a clue as to what's going into it.    you don't even know what to like vs not like yes, so yes...you're being incredibly whiney.  

20 minutes ago, mrags said:

 

No. It just sucks. They are going to spend 1.4B of the taxpayers money on a new stadium that didn’t really address any issues of the old stadium besides concourse width, bathrooms, and vending areas. Not sure how anyone would be ok with that. 

how do you know what exactly has been address and not addressed yet?

[Figster]

18 minutes ago, mrags said:

It’ll be angles so that the snow ice and rain runs backwards I’d imagine. But you’re pretty much right. Doesn’t cover fans from most of those elements. It will help in the fight against the wind I’d imagine. Whoopty doo 

Even from a wind perspective the roof design and overhang appears like it may direct wind into the stadium IMO. They do have the roof/overhang angled. Angled from the opening sloping downward away from it. Angled again from the perimeter of the stadium inward. Draining water where and how. High wind can pick up sheets of ice. 

 

Is this partial over hang even worth the trouble and cost? 

Edited February 28, 2023 by Figster

[teef]

23 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

The same things that go into every stadium, you mean? We just saw Minnesota build the taj mahal with the same budget a few years ago.

every stadium is different, and if you don't think the last few year have changed the cost of construction, you're completely out of touch.  so...it the money being spent you're worried about?  you're complaining on what's being spent and how we're not getting our moneys worth even though you're not sure what's being included?  

 

so you think because minnesota did it one way a few years ago, it's still apples to apples now.  you're just complaining at this point.  same people, same whiney nonsense.  

[LeGOATski]

5 minutes ago, Figster said:

Even from a wind perspective the roof design and overhang appears like it may direct wind into the stadium IMO. They do have the roof/overhang angled. Angled from the opening sloping downward away from it. Angled again from the perimeter of the stadium inward. Draining water where and how. High wind can pick up sheets of ice. 

 

Is this partial over hang even worth the trouble and cost? 

Questions I'm sure none of the architects have even considered yet.

[JoPoy88]

8 minutes ago, Figster said:

Even from a wind perspective the roof design and overhang appears like it may direct wind into the stadium IMO. They do have the roof/overhang angled. Angled from the opening sloping downward away from it. Angled again from the perimeter of the stadium inward. Draining water where and how. High wind can pick up sheets of ice. 

 

Is this partial over hang even worth the trouble and cost? 

and you’re discerning all this from a couple of wide angle pictures. 
 

this is getting a little ridiculous. These firms build billion dollar venues for a living. They know how to account for weather and drainage issues.

[Figster]

2 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

Questions I'm sure none of the architects have even considered yet.

and I get that, but generally speaking why not add more unique seating that starts going over the seats below with money that would have been spent on the useless over hang.

 

Good point on the preliminary sketches... 

[LeGOATski]

5 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

and you’re discerning all this from a couple of wide angle pictures. 
 

this is getting a little ridiculous. These firms build billion dollar venues for a living. They know how to account for weather and drainage issues.

Do they though?!?!?

 

I have a lot of experience looking at this stuff on the internet , so....

1 minute ago, Figster said:

and I get that, but generally speaking why not add more unique seating that starts going over the seats below with money that would have been spent on the useless over hang. 

You want to use human bodies as an overhang?

[Augie]

4 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

 

You want to use human bodies as an overhang?

 

I’m pretty sure you can get in trouble for that. 

[Einstein]

27 minutes ago, teef said:

einstein, you're already questioning what the money is being used for without having a clue as to what's going into it.   

 

We can see, via the renderings:

 

- The non-shielded concourses

- The ugly bed pan design

- The small scoreboards

- No dome

- The blocky and jagged seating sections

 

We have been told (or intimated) by the Bills:

 

- Less than half of the non-VIP seating will have covering

- Only the VIP areas will have radiant heating

 

The only things we DON'T know are the actual sizes of the concourses, the width of the seats, and what food options there will be. 

[Figster]

10 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

Do they though?!?!?

 

I have a lot of experience looking at this stuff on the internet , so....

You want to use human bodies as an overhang?

Design the top of the stadium like a ball thats cut off 3/4 of the way up. Upper tiers on platforms with a birds eye view. You get more seating and block the wind.

Edited February 28, 2023 by Figster

[mrags]

23 minutes ago, teef said:

sure.  which are renderings, which are limited.  we have people immediately assuming what's there and what's not.  fine, but to be angry about something you aren't even sure is included at this point?  we have another poster already upset about money not being properly used!   it's far to early to have meltdowns over something we're not even sure about yet.

 

also, let's face it...not everyone is going to be satisfied, yet i can almost guarantee what posters are going to be the loudest about it.

einstein, you're already questioning what the money is being used for without having a clue as to what's going into it.    you don't even know what to like vs not like yes, so yes...you're being incredibly whiney.  

how do you know what exactly has been address and not addressed yet?

Well, I sure know it’s not a dome. I sore know it’s not downtown where it could actually do some good for the area. I sure know that the awnings on the roof aren’t covering the majority of fans from cold and the elements. I sure know that based on the images that I’m sore the architects submitted that the overhangs on the middle sections appear to be club and vip sections just like in the current stadium now where’s ticket prices are already 2500+. Add in that ticket prices will likely double and then add in the PSL fees and you are paying a whole lot for tickets. For the regular Shlubs that don’t manage to get club seats under heat and under cover, they will be paying over twice as much for tickets every game to be in the same crumby weather conditions as they’ve been in for years. And that may be fine for the drunk 20 something crowd but I’m not interested in jumping through flaming tables and freezing my butt off all game. 
 

You’re complaining that we’re all a bunch of whiney babies because we aren’t happy. I say anyone that is happy with the crap they are showing us is too accepting. It’s like the girl that stays with her boyfriend because he keeps telling her that he lives her but then beats the crap out of her every few weeks. 

[JoPoy88]

8 minutes ago, Figster said:

Design the top of the stadium like a bowl thats cut off 3/4 of the way up. Upper tiers on platforms with a birds eye view. You get more seating and block the wind.

more seating is exactly what they do not want in order to command more $ per seat. Hence the reduced capacity from Highmark. Tennessee and Washington are planning the same thing.
 

edit: https://www.fieldofschemes.com/2022/11/23/19390/heres-why-nfl-teams-want-smaller-stadiums-and-its-not-about-saving-fans-from-nosebleeds/

Edited February 28, 2023 by JoPoy88

[LeGOATski]

5 minutes ago, Figster said:

Design the top of the stadium like a bowl thats cut off 3/4 of the way up. Upper tiers on platforms with a birds eye view. You get more seating and block the wind.

You should do this for a living 

7 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

I’m pretty sure you can get in trouble for that. 

It'd be super unique though

[Einstein]

15 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

Questions I'm sure none of the architects have even considered yet.

 

Being in the business world as long as I have, I can say unequivocally that you would be SHOCKED at the glaring issues that don't get considered until very late in a project, or NOT AT ALL.

 

A few examples:

 

1) When they designed the kingdome, they didn't take into consideration Seattle's near-constant rainfall. After a decade, the roof became so waterlogged that it began to disintegrate.

2) The teflon roof on the Metrodome that when the sun was shining and the lights were on inside, would create a eye-blinding glare at times. Oh and it couldn't withstand Minnesota snow.

3) The roof on Olympic stadium that ripped every time (seemingly) they opened it.

4) The Cowboys stadium that has punts hitting the scoreboard ever year.

 

[Figster]

1 minute ago, LeGOATski said:

You should do this for a living 

It'd be super unique though

I'm a retired survey/engineer that worked Nuclear construction so its enjoyable to look at a big project like this for the team I love.

 

Fans need to be happy with what they will be paying for in my humble opinion.

[teef]

11 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

We can see, via the renderings:

 

- The non-shielded concourses

- The ugly bed pan design

- The small scoreboards

- No dome

- The blocky and jagged seating sections

 

We have been told (or intimated) by the Bills:

 

- Less than half of the non-VIP seating will have covering

- Only the VIP areas will have radiant heating

 

The only things we DON'T know are the actual sizes of the concourses, the width of the seats, and what food options there will be. 

we know no dome.  people have to just get over it.  

 

you don't know the exact size of the scoreboard.  you don't like the design, and that's personal which is fine.  you don't know the exact layout of seating sections, you don't know exactly how the concourse look.  all of this and you're complaining how much it costs.  with no idea of what's going in, cost of materials, cost of labor, etc, and you're complaining about the cost.

 

all of this teeth gnashing over a rendering.  i build a building for my office a few years ago.  obviously a small project, but the renderings i started with differed quite a bit on the final product.  the generic look of the building was the same, but that was about it.  on top of that, if i tried to build the same structure this year vs the end of 2019 when it was completed, i'd be paying 50-70% more.  it's just how life is right now.

[LeGOATski]

6 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Being in the business world as long as I have, I can say unequivocally that you would be SHOCKED at the glaring issues that don't get considered until very late in a project, or NOT AT ALL.

 

A few examples:

 

1) When they designed the kingdome, they didn't take into consideration Seattle's near-constant rainfall. After a decade, the roof became so waterlogged that it began to disintegrate.

2) The teflon roof on the Metrodome that when the sun was shining and the lights were on inside, would create a eye-blinding glare at times. Oh and it couldn't withstand Minnesota snow.

3) The roof on Olympic stadium that ripped every time (seemingly) they opened it.

4) The Cowboys stadium that has punts hitting the scoreboard ever year.

 

Which one of those was designed by Populous? What issues has Populous had? 

[nucci]

3 minutes ago, teef said:

we know no dome.  people have to just get over it.  

 

you don't know the exact size of the scoreboard.  you don't like the design, and that's personal which is fine.  you don't know the exact layout of seating sections, you don't know exactly how the concourse look.  all of this and you're complaining how much it costs.  with no idea of what's going in, cost of materials, cost of labor, etc, and you're complaining about the cost.

 

all of this teeth gnashing over a rendering.  i build a building for my office a few years ago.  obviously a small project, but the renderings i started with differed quite a bit on the final product.  the generic look of the building was the same, but that was about it.  on top of that, if i tried to build the same structure this year vs the end of 2019 when it was completed, i'd be paying 50-70% more.  it's just how life is right now.

the pics just give some of the basics. Not much else is known

[teef]

14 minutes ago, mrags said:

Well, I sure know it’s not a dome. I sore know it’s not downtown where it could actually do some good for the area. I sure know that the awnings on the roof aren’t covering the majority of fans from cold and the elements. I sure know that based on the images that I’m sore the architects submitted that the overhangs on the middle sections appear to be club and vip sections just like in the current stadium now where’s ticket prices are already 2500+. Add in that ticket prices will likely double and then add in the PSL fees and you are paying a whole lot for tickets. For the regular Shlubs that don’t manage to get club seats under heat and under cover, they will be paying over twice as much for tickets every game to be in the same crumby weather conditions as they’ve been in for years. And that may be fine for the drunk 20 something crowd but I’m not interested in jumping through flaming tables and freezing my butt off all game. 
 

You’re complaining that we’re all a bunch of whiney babies because we aren’t happy. I say anyone that is happy with the crap they are showing us is too accepting. It’s like the girl that stays with her boyfriend because he keeps telling her that he lives her but then beats the crap out of her every few weeks. 

so you're upset about not getting a dome.  i get it.  i would love a dome, ( i didn't care about the downtown area as much but i certainly got the idea).  you're concerned about the elements...fine.  the moment you knew there wasn't going to be a dome, you had to get used to getting rained/snowed on in most areas.  those rendering likely don't show exactly ho0w the overhangs are set up, so it's all premature now.  

 

listen, how long have we hear fans complain about how lousy the stadium was now and how we should be embarrassed.  now we're getting a new stadium, and people are now complaining about how expensive the tickets are going to be.  we've been spoiled forever in terms of cost, and now we're going to be brought in line with typical prices.  for anyone not to expect that is foolish on their part.  we all knew there would be a new stadium, and we all knew it wasn't going to please everyone.  so what are your options?  deal with it the way it is, or just don't buy seasons.  that's it.  being angry on a message board about things were not completely sure of is a joke.  concerning not having a dome, get over it.  

2 minutes ago, nucci said:

the pics just give some of the basics. Not much else is known

correct.  that's my point.  

[Figster]

3 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

Which one of those was designed by Populous? What issues has Populous had? 

The point was big projects can have design errors

 

What do you know about Populous?

[LeGOATski]

6 minutes ago, Figster said:

I'm a retired survey/engineer that worked Nuclear construction so its enjoyable to look at a big project like this for the team I love.

 

Fans need to be happy with what they will be paying for in my humble opinion.

Then I'm sure you could come up with something better than platforms of people  hanging out a 100 feet above the lower bowl.

 

For someone who was concerned about the safety hazards of various types of water on the roof, you're surprisingly cavalier about putting a bunch of drunk people up there....

 

Rest assured, I bet you're going to see tons of happy fans in the sold out stadium for years to come.

[JoPoy88]

1 minute ago, Figster said:

The point was big projects can have design errors

 

What do you know about Populous?

I know they’re number 1 in the world in terms of revenue and it’s not particularly close:

 

https://www.bdcnetwork.com/top-110-sports-facility-architecture-and-ae-firms-2022

[LeGOATski]

5 minutes ago, Figster said:

The point was big projects can have design errors

 

What do you know about Populous?

I've heard nothing but good things about their stadiums

 

I'm not going to assume the Bills stadium will be any different 

[Figster]

5 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

I know they’re number 1 in the world in terms of revenue and it’s not particularly close:

 

https://www.bdcnetwork.com/top-110-sports-facility-architecture-and-ae-firms-2022

Good reputation, and a good reply.

 

Part of being good at what they do may be transparency and listening to what the public is telling them.

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

3 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

I've heard nothing but good things about their stadiums

 

I'm not going to assume the Bills stadium will be any different 

A little architectural firm trivia….the sports venue design industry took off when HOK Sport was first formed in Kansas City as a spin off from HOK architects, one of the largest architectural firms in the world. They really made their name with the design of Camden Yards ballpark in Baltimore. Prior to Camden Yards sports venue design had little fanfare or personality as was evidenced by the old multi-use stadiums in Pittsburgh and Cincinnati. Ever since HOK Sport made headlines, Kansas City has been the home to both HOK Sport and their primary competitors. So every time a new large commission would come in they’d ‘steal’ each other’s staffs to prepare the final drawings…which are a tremendous undertaking. HOK Sport then rebranded, losing the tie to the main HOK office and is now Populous, headquartered in Kansas City. 
 

There you have it! 

[Einstein]

32 minutes ago, teef said:

we know no dome.  people have to just get over it.  

 

I don't think they will. You will be hearing about this for 30 years.

 

32 minutes ago, teef said:

you don't know the exact size of the scoreboard. 

 

Unless the renderings are purposefully misleading, we can see the size of the scoreboard relative to the stadium around it. It's very small compared to the new stadiums of the NFL. 

 

32 minutes ago, teef said:

you don't like the design, and that's personal which is fine.  you don't know the exact layout of seating sections

 

We can see how the layout of the seating sections in the renderings. We have an above view, sideline view, and endzone view. Not sure what other view we would need.

 

32 minutes ago, teef said:

you don't know exactly how the concourse look.  all of this and you're complaining how much it costs.  with no idea of what's going in, cost of materials, cost of labor, etc, and you're complaining about the cost.

 

All these things are NORMAL for stadium's. There is nothing unique about this stadium that will raise costs over a typical NFL stadium. There isn't going to be a surprise section made out of gold raising the cost. Therefore, we can compare this stadium to other NFL stadiums that were built for similar amounts. 

 

US Bank Stadium (Vikings palace of a stadium) was built for $1.1B in 2016.

 

Including inflation (using an inflation calculator), that stadium would be $1.3B in 2023. 

 

The Vikings domed, beautiful, stadium cost less than we what we are spending for this bedpan stadium.

 

 

[Einstein]

34 minutes ago, Figster said:

The point was big projects can have design errors

 

What do you know about Populous?

 

I fear the point went over his head. 

 

The #1 plane manufacturer in the world has watched as their planes fell out of the sky twice in the last several years due to a terrible engineering design of their MCAS system and lack of redundancy in the sensors. 

 

To say that a big firm can't make mistakes if foolhardy. 

[teef]

13 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

I don't think they will. You will be hearing about this for 30 years.

 

 

Unless the renderings are purposefully misleading, we can see the size of the scoreboard relative to the stadium around it. It's very small compared to the new stadiums of the NFL. 

 

 

We can see how the layout of the seating sections in the renderings. We have an above view, sideline view, and endzone view. Not sure what other view we would need.

 

 

All these things are NORMAL for stadium's. There is nothing unique about this stadium that will raise costs over a typical NFL stadium. There isn't going to be a surprise section made out of gold raising the cost. Therefore, we can compare this stadium to other NFL stadiums that were built for similar amounts. 

 

US Bank Stadium (Vikings palace of a stadium) was built for $1.1B in 2016.

 

Including inflation (using an inflation calculator), that stadium would be $1.3B in 2023. 

 

The Vikings domed, beautiful, stadium cost less than we what we are spending for this bedpan stadium.

 

 

again, you're making assumptions.

 

 

on top of that, your looking at inflation from 2016 to 2023?  do you think that's taken into account the recent massive price hike on supplies and labor?   you just can't compare costs now to costs then.  i think that would be obvious.  what was the typical costs of other stadiums in 2016?    there's more of an approach to this than you're considering.  

[LeGOATski]

28 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

A little architectural firm trivia….the sports venue design industry took off when HOK Sport was first formed in Kansas City as a spin off from HOK architects, one of the largest architectural firms in the world. They really made their name with the design of Camden Yards ballpark in Baltimore. Prior to Camden Yards sports venue design had little fanfare or personality as was evidenced by the old multi-use stadiums in Pittsburgh and Cincinnati. Ever since HOK Sport made headlines, Kansas City has been the home to both HOK Sport and their primary competitors. So every time a new large commission would come in they’d ‘steal’ each other’s staffs to prepare the final drawings…which are a tremendous undertaking. HOK Sport then rebranded, losing the tie to the main HOK office and is now Populous, headquartered in Kansas City. 
 

There you have it! 

And that's...H Oh Kay...with me

 

[Figster]

 

 

 

Heres a few pictures of Tottenham Stadium which may have helped influence the Bills new stadium design.

18 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

I fear the point went over his head. 

 

The #1 plane manufacturer in the world has watched as their planes fell out of the sky twice in the last several years due to a terrible engineering design of their MCAS system and lack of redundancy in the sensors. 

 

To say that a big firm can't make mistakes if foolhardy. 

  Amen to that...

 

Revisions are constantly being made when a big project is under construction

Edited February 28, 2023 by Figster

[Einstein]

20 minutes ago, teef said:

again, you're making assumptions.

 

 

on top of that, your looking at inflation from 2016 to 2023?  do you think that's taken into account the recent massive price hike on supplies and labor?   you just can't compare costs now to costs then.  i think that would be obvious.  what was the typical costs of other stadiums in 2016?    there's more of an approach to this than you're considering.  

 

Yeah, that's all inflation.

 

Falcons opened their massive stadium with a mall apparently in it the following year (2017) for $1.5B.

 

15 minutes ago, Figster said:

 

 

 

Heres a few pictures of Tottenham Stadium which may have helped influence the Bills new stadium design.

  Amen to that...

 

 

Now THAT is a much sharper looking stadium.

 

The mini-roof appears to cover way more seats, and the seats are not blocky. I like the curved seat section in the endzone (or goal area).

Looking at the Tottenham stadium (thank you Figster) why didn't we do this? It was even designed by populous!

We would still have the snow/rain/weather games that people love, and fans get to stay dry. This blows what we see in our new renderings out of the water.

 

 

[Figster]

2 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Yeah, that's all inflation.

 

Falcons opened their massive stadium with a mall apparently in it the following year (2017) for $1.5B.

 

 

Now THAT is a much sharper looking stadium.

 

The mini-roof appears to cover way more seats, and the seats are not blocky. I like the curved seat section in the endzone (or goal area).

Very appealing Stadium design. I agree.

 

 

[Jrb1979]

3 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Yeah, that's all inflation.

 

Falcons opened their massive stadium with a mall apparently in it the following year (2017) for $1.5B.

 

 

Now THAT is a much sharper looking stadium.

 

The mini-roof appears to cover way more seats, and the seats are not blocky. I like the curved seat section in the endzone (or goal area).

Agreed. Even the Titans stadium looks much better and didn't cost that much more. IMO it feels like they went with the best stadium they can do for the price they were willing to spend. Since it's only going to be used for the Bills and they aren't getting a Super Bowl here why spend more then needed. For most fans the fact this means the team is staying is good enough. They got an improved stadium over Highmark. What more do you need?

[Figster]

2 minutes ago, Jrb1979 said:

Agreed. Even the Titans stadium looks much better and didn't cost that much more. IMO it feels like they went with the best stadium they can do for the price they were willing to spend. Since it's only going to be used for the Bills and they aren't getting a Super Bowl here why spend more then needed. For most fans the fact this means the team is staying is good enough. They got an improved stadium over Highmark. What more do you need?

Keeping the fans and players in a more favorable temp and playing conditions at a critical time of the season/playoffs would be most beneficial IMO. At bare minimum its not to much to ask IMO.

[SoMAn]

On 2/25/2023 at 8:05 PM, Kiva said:

As long as it’s inside. A Dome is ALL that matters.  These rendering are not impressive at all. It’s almost like they don’t want to spend the money necessary. City of Buffalo? Pegula? 

Agreed. Compared to the most recent Jetson’s-style stadiums that have become the NFL standard, that looks old before it’s even built. 
BTW- any word on when someone will turn that first shovel of dirt or do they have to form a committee and do a shovel study first?

It’s ridiculous how protracted any construction effort is up there. 

[mrags]

1 hour ago, JoPoy88 said:

more seating is exactly what they do not want in order to command more $ per seat. Hence the reduced capacity from Highmark. Tennessee and Washington are planning the same thing.
 

edit: https://www.fieldofschemes.com/2022/11/23/19390/heres-why-nfl-teams-want-smaller-stadiums-and-its-not-about-saving-fans-from-nosebleeds/

It’s likely more about the fact that since season tix prices are going to more than double and then add thousands in PSLs they know they are going to price so many thousands of fans out of a venue they have a hard time filling up now with the cheapest prices in the league.