Buffalo_Stampede Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 31 minutes ago, Buffalo Junction said: I’m not worried about kickoffs. The issue is that many of the best special teamers (guys who stay in the league and get paid) excel in multiple roles on teams. Experienced upbacks usually call and change protections on punts and are also some of the best tacklers in kick coverage. While going for touchbacks will eliminate KO coverage it still leaves blocking and covering punts which are frequent spots for turnovers or flipped field position. Get rid of punting. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Junction Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 47 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: Get rid of punting. Why not. It worked against New England the other year. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan2313 Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 3 hours ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said: They pay the ones they have a bit less, but they also pay their kicker a bit more. They also have one of the best special teams coaches in the business so they're a bit more content to use young players (they also had a ton of draft picks). They do still carry burton and bush who were veteran special teams only players. I'm all for eliminating paid ST only guys for the most part - i do think that it's worth having 1 or 2 vets though. Jones is pretty cheap, and a captain. I'd probably keep him. Did Hodgins outplay Kumerow at any given point in time? Kumerows issues this year were injury related, not as though he was a particularly bad player. He was also a plus blocker vs. hodgins in additiona to special teams ability. Since Hodgins has better career numbers already, I would say yes, he has out performed Kumerow. We kept Kumerow because of special teams, while he was injured. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleSammy Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 As long as we have a defense that turns virtually every 3rd and long into a 1st down for our opponents, they could start every drive on the one yard line and it wouldn't matter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ControllerOfPlanetX Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 When you whiff on draft picks, you say they are for special teams. When you miss out on top tier free agents, and are relegated to second and third tier, you say they are for special teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manther Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 9 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: I honestly don’t understand why they don’t just kick it out of the end zone every kick. They are trying to kick it high and make a tackle inside the 20 but it’s not likely to happen. Sets up injuries and a possible long return. I also think they have to justify the cap spent on special teams players. They need to change the philosophy. Bass was 70% touch back as a rookie and the coaches have him down to 46% last year. Dropping each year. There is very little benefit in kicking short. I like the thoughts and the game has changed. So, we need to change too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frostbitmic Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 Neal at least is Taron Johnson's backup. Jones and Matakevich, I have no idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Says Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 12 hours ago, BillsFan130 said: Some of those guys have cap hits into the 2.5 3.5 mil range. Lets say you sub out 3-4 of those for guys on rookie deals/ veteran minimum vets You are probably looking at 6-10 mil in cap savings. I would say that’s a descent amount Jones ,Neal and Matekevich total cap hit was about 6.2 million last season. They are now all free agents so let's see what happens if Beane has to replace them all with rookies. They do have some value as "position" players because of their experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullBuchanan Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 12 hours ago, Herb Nightly said: You obviously are referring to COVERAGE guys, but, Hines and Bass can't do it all by themselves. Smiley coached ST into a top unit,so,maybe he can get by with rookies replacing Jones, Matakevich,etc. But look at their cap hits; is there really that much to be saved? You also had Neal, Kumerow, Hines, and Gilliam whose primary contributions were ST. It's a significant makeup of the roster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LABILLBACKER Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 Other than Hines, Bass and maybe Martin, all remaining ST'ers should be paid the league minimum. It just makes no sense. If I can kick the ball for a touchback 70% of the time then let him do it. McD over pays every year for ST'ers. Pure stupidity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Herb Nightly said: Jones ,Neal and Matekevich total cap hit was about 6.2 million last season. They are now all free agents so let's see what happens if Beane has to replace them all with rookies. They do have some value as "position" players because of their experience. It was 6.2? I thought Matakavich was 3.5 and Neal was 3.3 alone. I Could be wrong Edit: I calculated about 7.5 mil cap for those 3 guys Edited February 21, 2023 by BillsFan130 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Says Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 14 hours ago, BillsFan130 said: Some of those guys have cap hits into the 2.5 3.5 mil range. Lets say you sub out 3-4 of those for guys on rookie deals/ veteran minimum vets You are probably looking at 6-10 mil in cap savings. I would say that’s a descent amount You will still be paying NFL minimum to the replacements,from about 705k to 1.2 million each. With the example I gave you might save 3 to 4 million if you replaced Neal,Jones and Matakevich with lowest-paid players. So, probably not 6 to 10 million saved and I dont know who the 4th player is you want to replace on ST. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 1 minute ago, Herb Nightly said: You will still be paying NFL minimum to the replacements,from about 705k to 1.2 million each. With the example I gave you might save 3 to 4 million if you replaced Neal,Jones and Matakevich with lowest-paid players. So, probably not 6 to 10 million saved and I dont know who the 4th player is you want to replace on ST. 7.5 cap Hit for those 3 combined Lets say on average 900k replacement. So close to 5 mil for just those 3 players alone. My original guesstimate was a bit off admittedly. But the fact remains if you can save close to 5 mil on a cap strapped team, I think you have to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreggTX Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 I would certainly agree that kicker, especially the guy kicking FG's, are the most important ST players since FG's often determine the outcome of a game. Other than that, just sign guys that will add solid depth and let them play ST unless they can really make an impact like Steve Tasker did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UConn James Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 19 hours ago, Buffalo Junction said: Because having good special teams usually won’t win you a game, but bad special teams play can often lose you a game. The tighter the game is the more influence special teams has with turnovers, field position, and momentum. Poor jammers or up backs can lead to turnovers, bad gunners can lead to big returns, bad holders lead to missed field goals, etc. There’s a reason why guys like Taiwan Jones and Kumerow make rosters every year. To cough the ball up at the 2 yard line in his ONLY job? Taiwan should have kissed Josh & Gabe on the feet for saving his @— on the next play with a 98-yard TD. There was another major flub he made on ST this season too, but it eludes me rn. T Jones is getting quite long in the tooth (34? 35?) and his play does not justify a vital roster spot. Keeping Kumerow on the roster when injured meant we lost Hodgins… who may or may not be a steal for Daboll & Schoen / NYG… and then we were forced to scrounge up John Brown & Beasley late in the year. ST is important and all that jazz… but… not as much as it once was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, BillsFan130 said: 7.5 cap Hit for those 3 combined Lets say on average 900k replacement. So close to 5 mil for just those 3 players alone. My original guesstimate was a bit off admittedly. But the fact remains if you can save close to 5 mil on a cap strapped team, I think you have to do it. That’s a starting OG. If you take that cap and Saffold’s cap you get a top free agent OG. Edited February 21, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Brown Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 17 hours ago, Big Turk said: Because it will come back to bite you at the worst possible times if you don't. I have no recollection of a poor special teams unit biting us at the worst possible time in our history. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 Special teams won at least one game for us this year those two touchdown returns by Noel Hines critical to that win Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Says Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 21 hours ago, GunnerBill said: The thing is the data does still show that the best teams tend to be good on special teams. I did a comparison of the Bills $$s allocation to STs compared to SB winners a couple of years ago and they were pretty much right about on the average. Happy to crunch those numbers again at some point this offseason to see what has moved, but basically every team pays a few guys just to run about on special teams. But, experience matters on Special Teams just as it does on Offense and Defense. I admit I don't spend time analyzing ST stats; but I have questioned whether the investment in the likes of Hines, Neal and Matekevoch is worth it. They rarely play O and D but in case of an injury emergency, in a critical situation, I would prefer those veterans over unproven rookies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quincy Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 I think there should be a maximum 6 players that are ST only - LS, K, P, combo KR/PR, 2x Gunners. A player like Hines being a real backup RB plus both KR and PR is a bonus. Kumerow has played real WR snaps and can be WR #5. Can only hope that Gilliam plays more FB on offence next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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