The OL: Where it Stands Right Now - Where does it need to go in FA and Draft?

[ColoradoBills]

1 minute ago, The Jokeman said:

Wylie gave up 9 sacks last season. Ja’Waun James was a good RT at one time but been injury prone lately but could be a low cost/veteran to bring in to compete. The one UFA I'd love to sign is G Chris Lindstrom yet he could get tagged by the Falcons. David Andrews has worked under Kromer in the past. 

 

Wylie is much better at G than the RT role he was forced into.  I use him as an example.  I'm open to other FA guards. 

FA is coming before the draft so that is my immediate question.

Thanks for the input.

[3rdand12]

4 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Wylie is much better at G than the RT role he was forced into.  I use him as an example.  I'm open to other FA guards. 

FA is coming before the draft so that is my immediate question.

Thanks for the input.

I feel Brown improves with a FA at RG. But not against drafting one if Bills and Kromer feel Spencer will gain his 'footing'

this season in pass pro.

 Bates and the center position has me concerned for future state. Morse is important enough to Josh, but Bills better be thinking ahead on this. If Bates is not a definitive C in their minds?  They are better to have him play LG as suggested and draft for that spot sooner than later.
 At some point i sure would like an O line that can play together for a few years successfully. How sweet would that be !

[ColoradoBills]

6 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

I feel Brown improves with a FA at RG. But not against drafting one if Bills and Kromer feel Spencer will gain his 'footing'

this season in pass pro.

 Bates and the center position has me concerned for future state. Morse is important enough to Josh, but Bills better be thinking ahead on this. If Bates is not a definitive C in their minds?  They are better to have him play LG as suggested and draft for that spot sooner than later.
 At some point i sure would like an O line that can play together for a few years successfully. How sweet would that be !

 

I started with Option 1 of Bates being the heir apparent.  I too am not sure that is the way to go.  I would like to get away from the situation

where if Morse goes down Bates has to move and the OL deals with too many in game changes.

If Bates is slated to play LG, I would like to see him stay at that position and only come in at C in a disaster situation.

That being said, a true backup plan at C needs to be addressed.

 

That brings the whole thing into Morse and how long he can hang in there.  I feel if he was going to retire, he would have done it already.

So, I got him playing this year but don't know if you want him there longer. 

 

There was so much to consider it's the reason I started the thread, so as to get these options. 

[3rdand12]

1 hour ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I started with Option 1 of Bates being the heir apparent.  I too am not sure that is the way to go.  I would like to get away from the situation

where if Morse goes down Bates has to move and the OL deals with too many in game changes.

If Bates is slated to play LG, I would like to see him stay at that position and only come in at C in a disaster situation.

That being said, a true backup plan at C needs to be addressed.

 

That brings the whole thing into Morse and how long he can hang in there.  I feel if he was going to retire, he would have done it already.

So, I got him playing this year but don't know if you want him there longer. 

 

There was so much to consider it's the reason I started the thread, so as to get these options. 

Yep its really a good thread and much to ponder..

No question Bills need to bring in player both in FA and draft who will help sooner than later.

 It really is about Josh. Which also means we need a run game to balance and counter the deep ball

[hondo in seattle]

4 hours ago, Chaos said:

The Oline needs a complete redo.  No one other than Dawkins should be on the roster in 2024, other than as a possible backup.  
 

If the team is committed to rebuilding the line, I think we need to borrow a first round pick from 2024, and combine it with pick 27 to move up in the draft.  On the points chart (I know that is far from perfect), that could allow us to move up to 12 by trading with Houston.   At 12, it is almost certain one of the top 3 Tackles in the draft, Paris Johnson Jr., Peter Skoronski, and Broderick Jones should be available. We likely would have our pick of them.   My personal choice Skoronski.  We our second pick might be able to add John Michael Schmitz. If not Joe Tippman from Wisconsin should be there.  Tippman would be able to start at Guard as long as Morse is Healthy.  

 

There are several good guard options who should be available with our later picks to compete with Bates & Spencer Brown for the other guard spot. These include 

Andrew Vorhees from USC and an interesting UCLA player Atonio Mafi. Chandler Zavala from NCS and Jarrett Patterson from Norte Dame. 

 

Bang, bang, bang,  new line is Dawkins, Tippman, Morse, Vorhees, Skoronski.

 

 

I'm confused.  You said the only OL we should retain is Dawkins.  But then you list Morse as our starting center again in 2023 in your bang-bang-bang scenario.  

 

And you really want to start next season with three untested rookies on the OL?  Yikes!  

[SoCal Deek]

I like to keep things simple. Draft two Guards who’ll anchor the line for the rest of Allen’s contract. Bates backs up Morse, which means if like most seasons he’ll probably play half the games and then start in 2024. You cannot fix everything in a single offseason but I’ll take two young stud Guards as a huge win! And both should be available when and where we pick. 

[Chaos]

11 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

I'm confused.  You said the only OL we should retain is Dawkins.  But then you list Morse as our starting center again in 2023 in your bang-bang-bang scenario.  

 

And you really want to start next season with three untested rookies on the OL?  Yikes!  

Your confusion is because you have a reading comprehension issue.  I wrote 2024. The coming season is 2023.

[Bob in STL]

They could get a starting G in rounds 1 or 2, something they passed on in the last few years.  I think we’re going  with Brown at RT another year, but we should draft his replacement as well. 
 

Two of the top 4 picks should be allocated to OL.  Plus some Free Agent dollars.  

Edited February 20, 2023 by Bob in STL

[John from Riverside]

6 hours ago, ColoradoBills said:

I'm in the "fix the OL first crowd" so this is my #1 priority for the off season.

Going into FA and the Draft this is where to OL is right now.

I am going under the assumption that all 5 of last year's OL stay on the team (I think they should).

 

LT - Dawkins (Doyle backup)

LG - Open (Bates played RG but he seems better at LG, many see him as Morse's replacement at C) - (NO LG backup)

C - Morse (A huge unknown going forward both with health and cost) (Bates backup)

RG - Open (No Backup)

RT - Brown (Inconsistent but improving) (No RT backup)

 

On the roster and going to camp (so far) are former PS players (C-Mancz, T-Anderson, T-Van Demark)

 

It seems to me the #1 question is the future of Ryan Bates.  Is he earmarked at age 26 to replace Morse at C?  If not, is he the future at LG?

Question #2 who is the RG starter?  (Day 1 Rookie or FA?)

Question #3 is Spencer Brown locked to be starting RT?

Question #4 is after all the above answers, who is depth?

 

I would like to hear what some options are from the board.  I will post this OP now and give my thoughts, as of right now, in a reply post.

 

Keep in mind that Mitch Morse could possibly be a Casualty. He is old a lot of money and took yet another concussion last year.
 

I agree with you that I think bates is the future at center the future could be beginning now

 

I disagreed that we don’t have a back up right tackle replacement. Quessenberry would not cost much and he performed fine. He should be kept you also have a situation where the bills could go hard at a line and draft both a guard and a right tackle in the draft there are some quality ones available.

 

We should also take at least one quality, free agent, lineman, and free agency

[MrEpsYtown]

On IOL…I think this is where they make some sort of upgrade in both FA and in the draft.
 

To me the no 1 target should be Issac Seumalo. He just excels in everything this team is looking for in their offensive linemen. He excels in a zone scheme and he is very good in pass pro. He also has some versatility as he started a lot of games at center in college and played both guard positions and center as a pro. He has settled in at RG in recent years. I think he is an excellent player who would fit like a glove in between Morse and Brown. My one fear is that he struggled early in his career and was at his best between 2 all pros in Kelce and Johnson. If I were a betting man I think he winds up in San Francisco or with the Raiders or Chargers on the west coast for the Hawaii native and Oregon State alum. PFF projects 3 years 33 million. Likely out of our price range. 
 

I really like Connor McGovern, the Jets center from Mizzou. Good buddies with Mitch Morse from college, I think he is also a perfect fit at RG and moves Bates to LG. He can play center as well which frees Bates up to be exclusively be a LG. McGovern has a level of nastiness in his game that has been missing here. He has been super durable and scored an elite RAS coming out of college. PFF has him at 3 years 22.5 million, which I would do. However, there is enough of a need at center around the league that I think he winds up playing center somewhere. 
 

What I think happens?

 

I think we sign Kromer guy David Edwards to play LG or RG. A former Wisconsin RT who moved to G and had some high quality years before having a down year and getting hurt this year. You may recall week one, Jordan Phillips making a sick inside swim move embarrassing a guard and sacking Stafford. That victim was Edwards. He’s a dude whose play fell off a bit without Kromer and I think a reunion makes some sense. This would be somewhat disappointing for a lot of people, but there is upside with Edwards and he could come cheap off a lost year. He is still pretty young at 25 with 46 starts under his belt including a super bowl. He is big and long, very strong…a good athlete (former HS QB recruited as a TE). Again, I stick him at RG and let Bates play LG. Edwards was in line for a big contract before this season went off the rails a bit with concussions. I think it’s a risk, but I think they strongly look into him. 
 

Obviously everyone talks about Dalton Risner. I just take a pause on him as they had multiple meetings with him pre-draft and still traded up to pick Cody Ford in front of him. I just don’t think they love his game. Maybe their opinion has changed. He is a solid player and I would be happy with him, I don’t think they go down this road and I think he is going to get a bloated contract he doesn’t really deserve imo.
 

Not a fan of Ben Powers. I think he’s fools gold and he’s going to probably get paid. He’s massive, but playing in a run heavy gap scheme and isn’t very impressive run blocking. Then he doesn’t give up any sacks (but on a team with Lamar Jackson and Tyler Huntley as QB that has to be looked at with a grain of salt. Playing between Ronnie Stanley and Tyler Linderbaum and he suddenly had a career year? Buyer beware. This is a case of PFF stuff not passing the eye test for me imo. 
 

I would also look into Nick Allegretti. High RAS guy who can play guard and center. He has a very nasty game and has been good depth for KC. Every time he was on the field for them I thought he looked good. Nate Davis also makes sense, though I am a bit iffy on him as well. 

 

I would also consider Michael Deiter to be your back up interior guy who can play both guards and center. Again, freeing up Bates to be a LG only. He is another Wisconsin guy and former teammate of Edwards. 
 

Finally, if Tampa cuts Shaq Mason, I would be all over that. Always loved his game and he is a great fit. 
 

Dream world? Seumalo or McGovern plus a 3rd or 4th draft pick. 
 

Realistic world? Edwards, Deiter, 3rd or 4th round draft pick. 
 

One last point, when it comes to the draft, I look mostly at OTs who will kick inside as that has pretty much been this regimes MO (aside from Teller). Some college tackles who are better off kicking inside: Cody Mauch, Andrew Vorhees (played LT and LG), Tyler Steen, Nick Broeker, Jaxon Kirkland, Matt Bergeron, Curtis McClendon, Jordan McFadden, Braeden Daniels. 
 

That’s where my thought process is at this moment. 

[Thurman#1]

11 hours ago, Ya Digg? said:

Spencer Brown definitely did NOT show improvement and he better not be locked into a starting spot. The Bills should be looking to upgrade everything along the offensive line. The only spot I think is safe is Dawkins-not amazing but if you can get better play next to him he will be fine and money needs to be spent on other places 

 

 

The OL wasn't good.

 

It also wasn't as bad as you're implying.

 

Dawkins and Morse played very well. Bates played well the last half of the season after taking a while switching left to right, a really hard switch since it reverses your footwork.

 

After that, things get questionable. 

 

Spencer Brown was recovering from back surgery. That often takes a long time to recover from. A longer time than people want to deal with. He could easily be much better next year. 

 

Or not. Some back injuries never really get better. They should bring in someone, probably an FA, to compete in case he doesn't get back to his 2021 form and beyond.

 

Saffold needs to be replaced, obviously.

 

4 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Keep in mind that Mitch Morse could possibly be a Casualty. He is old a lot of money and took yet another concussion last year.
 

I agree with you that I think bates is the future at center the future could be beginning now

 

I disagreed that we don’t have a back up right tackle replacement. Quessenberry would not cost much and he performed fine. He should be kept you also have a situation where the bills could go hard at a line and draft both a guard and a right tackle in the draft there are some quality ones available.

 

We should also take at least one quality, free agent, lineman, and free agency

 

 

Very much worth remembering. Doesn't look like Morse will let what has happened so far stop him. But he does need to strongly consider his future and we need to do something in case he ends up with another serious concussion at some point.

 

Everyone's all over this, but a guard who can play center should be a high draft priority, if nothing else to provide competition for Bates at center and possibly keep him at guard down the road.

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Thurman#1

[John from Riverside]

47 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

The OL wasn't good.

 

It also wasn't as bad as you're implying.

 

Dawkins and Morse played very well. Bates played well the last half of the season after taking a while switching left to right, a really hard switch since it reverses your footwork.

 

After that, things get questionable. 

 

Spencer Brown was recovering from back surgery. That often takes a long time to recover from. A longer time than people want to deal with. He could easily be much better next year. 

 

Or not. Some back injuries never really get better. They should bring in someone, probably an FA, to compete in case he doesn't get back to his 2021 form and beyond.

 

Saffold needs to be replaced, obviously.

 

 

 

Very much worth remembering. Doesn't look like Morse will let what has happened so far stop him. But he does need to strongly consider his future and we need to do something in case he ends up with another serious concussion at some point.

 

Everyone's all over this, but a guard who can play center should be a high draft priority, if nothing else to provide competition for Bates at center and possibly keep him at guard down the road.

 

I should point out that whenever I’m talking about improving the line I’m not talking about it making it NFL acceptable. I want people to think that our offense of line is the best in the league.
 

It’s a tall task, but that’s my aim

[Thurman#1]

4 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

On IOL…I think this is where they make some sort of upgrade in both FA and in the draft.
 

To me the no 1 target should be Issac Seumalo. He just excels in everything this team is looking for in their offensive linemen. He excels in a zone scheme and he is very good in pass pro. He also has some versatility as he started a lot of games at center in college and played both guard positions and center as a pro. He has settled in at RG in recent years. I think he is an excellent player who would fit like a glove in between Morse and Brown. My one fear is that he struggled early in his career and was at his best between 2 all pros in Kelce and Johnson. If I were a betting man I think he winds up in San Francisco or with the Raiders or Chargers on the west coast for the Hawaii native and Oregon State alum. PFF projects 3 years 33 million. Likely out of our price range. 
 

I really like Connor McGovern, the Jets center from Mizzou. Good buddies with Mitch Morse from college, I think he is also a perfect fit at RG and moves Bates to LG. He can play center as well which frees Bates up to be exclusively be a LG. McGovern has a level of nastiness in his game that has been missing here. He has been super durable and scored an elite RAS coming out of college. PFF has him at 3 years 22.5 million, which I would do. However, there is enough of a need at center around the league that I think he winds up playing center somewhere. 
 

What I think happens?

 

I think we sign Kromer guy David Edwards to play LG or RG. A former Wisconsin RT who moved to G and had some high quality years before having a down year and getting hurt this year. You may recall week one, Jordan Phillips making a sick inside swim move embarrassing a guard and sacking Stafford. That victim was Edwards. He’s a dude whose play fell off a bit without Kromer and I think a reunion makes some sense. This would be somewhat disappointing for a lot of people, but there is upside with Edwards and he could come cheap off a lost year. He is still pretty young at 25 with 46 starts under his belt including a super bowl. He is big and long, very strong…a good athlete (former HS QB recruited as a TE). Again, I stick him at RG and let Bates play LG. Edwards was in line for a big contract before this season went off the rails a bit with concussions. I think it’s a risk, but I think they strongly look into him. 
 

Obviously everyone talks about Dalton Risner. I just take a pause on him as they had multiple meetings with him pre-draft and still traded up to pick Cody Ford in front of him. I just don’t think they love his game. Maybe their opinion has changed. He is a solid player and I would be happy with him, I don’t think they go down this road and I think he is going to get a bloated contract he doesn’t really deserve imo.
 

Not a fan of Ben Powers. I think he’s fools gold and he’s going to probably get paid. He’s massive, but playing in a run heavy gap scheme and isn’t very impressive run blocking. Then he doesn’t give up any sacks (but on a team with Lamar Jackson and Tyler Huntley as QB that has to be looked at with a grain of salt. Playing between Ronnie Stanley and Tyler Linderbaum and he suddenly had a career year? Buyer beware. This is a case of PFF stuff not passing the eye test for me imo. 
 

I would also look into Nick Allegretti. High RAS guy who can play guard and center. He has a very nasty game and has been good depth for KC. Every time he was on the field for them I thought he looked good. Nate Davis also makes sense, though I am a bit iffy on him as well. 

 

I would also consider Michael Deiter to be your back up interior guy who can play both guards and center. Again, freeing up Bates to be a LG only. He is another Wisconsin guy and former teammate of Edwards. 
 

Finally, if Tampa cuts Shaq Mason, I would be all over that. Always loved his game and he is a great fit. 
 

Dream world? Seumalo or McGovern plus a 3rd or 4th draft pick. 
 

Realistic world? Edwards, Deiter, 3rd or 4th round draft pick. 
 

One last point, when it comes to the draft, I look mostly at OTs who will kick inside as that has pretty much been this regimes MO (aside from Teller). Some college tackles who are better off kicking inside: Cody Mauch, Andrew Vorhees (played LT and LG), Tyler Steen, Nick Broeker, Jaxon Kirkland, Matt Bergeron, Curtis McClendon, Jordan McFadden, Braeden Daniels. 
 

That’s where my thought process is at this moment. 

 

 

Great post.

 

Careful and thorough. Gave me a lot to think about.

 

7 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I should point out that whenever I’m talking about improving the line I’m not talking about it making it NFL acceptable. I want people to think that our offense of line is the best in the league.
 

It’s a tall task, but that’s my aim

 

 

 

Good luck on that. 😄

 

I don't think our GM ranks it a high enough priority to put that many resources into it.

 

I'd like to see significantly above average. Allen runs and moves well enough to make that kind of a line really really effective.

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Thurman#1

[ProcessTruster]

Boettger and Brown will finally both be 100% Physically for 2023 and will both be starters on the right side.   Problem solved.   Doyle will be backup  as he will be 100% phyically.   Draft (and FA ) will provide needed depth or (hopefully ) a guard upgrade . 

 

really not that big a deal.   get a pile of guys you really liked back from injury and move forward.   this board forgets all about guys who are/were recovering for or are injured.  weird. 

[JaBu]

 

6 minutes ago, ProcessTruster said:

Boettger and Brown will finally both be 100% Physically for 2023 and will both be starters on the right side.   Problem solved. 

 

Boettger is a free agent and I think his time in Buffalo is up. He's never been quality starter material.

 

[GreggTX]

I'd love to see Orlando Brown at LT and Dawkins at LG or O Brown at RT with S Brown as the Swing Tackle. Maybe, if he can finally put it together, S Brown could be good at G. He's an athletic freak. I just don't know why he's struggling so much. Sometimes OL take time to develop. I sincerely hope Spencer Brown takes a HUGE leap in year 3.

If there isn't good value for OL or outside receiver in the late 1st, maybe we trade down to acquire multiple 2nd round picks for this coming draft.

I know Beane's 2nd round picks haven't fared well, but I suspect that's mostly coincidence since you could argue that he's gotten good value in rounds 3-7. He's also done well in round 1 except for Oliver who is still OK, but not good value for #9 overall.

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by GreggTX

[Drew21PA]

Going from the press conference I can’t say I’m going to be getting my hopes up they will address this in the draft.

 

sounds like another patch work - Josh run for your life and make us win type thing.

 

wish we could mail ONE guard in the drafter and a serviceable  Giard in FA…could make it a couple percentage points better 

 

not optimistic he set the bar really low so maybe he did that on purpose (Beane)

8 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

The OL wasn't good.

 

It also wasn't as bad as you're implying.

 

Dawkins and Morse played very well. Bates played well the last half of the season after taking a while switching left to right, a really hard switch since it reverses your footwork.

 

After that, things get questionable. 

 

Spencer Brown was recovering from back surgery. That often takes a long time to recover from. A longer time than people want to deal with. He could easily be much better next year. 

 

Or not. Some back injuries never really get better. They should bring in someone, probably an FA, to compete in case he doesn't get back to his 2021 form and beyond.

 

Saffold needs to be replaced, obviously.

 

 

 

Very much worth remembering. Doesn't look like Morse will let what has happened so far stop him. But he does need to strongly consider his future and we need to do something in case he ends up with another serious concussion at some point.

 

Everyone's all over this, but a guard who can play center should be a high draft priority, if nothing else to provide competition for Bates at center and possibly keep him at guard down the road.

 

Didn’t know Spencer needed surgery on his back…yeah I may give him a pass and he could obviously improve next season.

 

also he is just so BIG and strong but you just wish he would “get it”. Hopefully soon.  He had a lot of promise so maybe the injury had something to do with it.

 

im sure it did…

[BarleyNY]

I think the best case - and still realistic - scenario is:

 

LT - Dawkins

LG - Bates

C - Morse plus a day 2 draft pick to take over in a year or two

RG - FA like Nate Davis (4/$30M)

RT - Brown plus competition like Jermaine Eluemunor (2/$8M)

 

 

[Tenhigh]

16 hours ago, Success said:

 

We shouldn't re-invent the wheel.  The bolded was the Patriots' blueprint for almost 2 decades. They made one exception, when they got Moss - and that notably did not yield a title.

 

Ultimately, it's a big part of the reason Brady left - but you can't argue the results for so many years.  Their best receiver in some of those SB years would barely be a #3 on most of the top teams.  But they used that money saved on skill players to build a top 5 line, year in & year out.  

 

Allen can do the same thing Brady did.  I love that we have Diggs, and we'll have him for at least a few more years - but we don't need to make big investments in skill players. Just give Allen time in the pocket.

 

I plan to start a go fund me to put this part on a billboard outside of OBD.

[In Summary]

19 hours ago, Chaos said:

If the team is committed to rebuilding the line, I think we need to borrow a first round pick from 2024, and combine it with pick 27 to move up in the draft. 

 

Not for an o-lineman.

[Chaos]

2 minutes ago, In Summary said:

Not for an o-lineman.

Then they are not committed. 

[ColoradoBills]

1 hour ago, BarleyNY said:

I think the best case - and still realistic - scenario is:

 

LT - Dawkins

LG - Bates

C - Morse plus a day 2 draft pick to take over in a year or two

RG - FA like Nate Davis (4/$30M)

RT - Brown plus competition like Jermaine Eluemunor (2/$8M)

 

 

 

Specific FA players aside.  It definitely is a scenario worth consideration.

[msw2112]

22 hours ago, Success said:

We really might not be THAT far off.  Morse is a solid center, and Dawkins is a solid LT.  Morse hasn't hinted at retiring, so he should be our starting C this year.

 

Personally, I still have some hope in Brown.  I think the injury set him back, and he has certainly had flashes of very good play.  It's not enough, but I'm not giving up on the idea that he could emerge as a solid starter this season w/ a full training camp.

 

They need to bring in legit competition at his position, and also address both guard spots.  Bates could potentially fill one of those, and be very good.  I see us bringing in 1 strong FA, and drafting 2 linemen in the 1st 3-4 rounds.

 

This sounds about right to me.  Very realistic approach that should yield some improvement on the line.

[Yantha]

Pulling out my final 2022 mock prior to the draft.  Just for fun.  Linderbaum would look like a nice anchor right about now.

Munford hasn't amounted to much though.  The Bills actually drafted Tenuta and let him go to waivers.  Now he's playing for the Packers.

 

[In Summary]

5 hours ago, Chaos said:

Then they are not committed. 

I too want OL improvement, but I think they can do that without a higher 1st round pick. If they pick OL in the 1st, I'd have it be at their current position and only if there wasn't better value at receiver.  Arguably, the Bills' issue will be more is their talent assessment than whether they get linemen in the (example) 1st and 3rd or 2nd and 4th.