Leslie Frazier's "Spy Games" against Mahomes made possible only because of Von Miller(with pics)

[Big Turk]

excellent article talking about how Frazier used Miller to go after Mahomes and had the other defenders play off him to contain Mahomes in the pocket. 

 

Frazier used a 3-2-6 alignment to contain Mahomes in the pocket without taking a defender out of coverage along with aggressive spies(and sometimes multiple spies) that would trigger and rush hard towards him as soon as he broke the pocket.

 

https://archive.ph/oShmN

Edited October 19, 2022 by Big Turk

[wppete]

Excellent article! Frazier has been amazing for this team. Hope we don’t lose him next year. 

[Big Turk]

And here is an in depth breakdown of the Von Miller sack on 3rd down that got the Bills the ball back for the GW drive by Allen by some KC Guys that seem similar to what Cover 1 does...

 

Cover 2 High Shell rotated into Cover 1 robber at the snap.

 

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Big Turk

[NORWOODS FOOT]

Awesome article! What a great and well executed plan!

[Punching Bag]

Must read article except for those with no respect for Frazier.

 

Uses WayBack archive which some browsers / internet services have issue with.  PM me with email address and will send you PDF copy if you need.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Limeaid

[Let's Go Buffalo]

Good game plan and explanation of how it went down. Thanks for sharing!

[Orlando Tim]

6 hours ago, wppete said:

Excellent article! Frazier has been amazing for this team. Hope we don’t lose him next year. 

If Frazier is not offered a head coaching position next year I will be shocked. He had a great defense last year with no All stars and a dominant one this year when he has all the talent. Someone will want him who already has an offense in place.

[Punching Bag]

14 minutes ago, Orlando Tim said:

If Frazier is not offered a head coaching position next year I will be shocked. He had a great defense last year with no All stars and a dominant one this year when he has all the talent. Someone will want him who already has an offense in place.

 

An intelligent GM who has a young, bright OC will.

[BillsShredder83]

25 minutes ago, Orlando Tim said:

If Frazier is not offered a head coaching position next year I will be shocked. He had a great defense last year with no All stars and a dominant one this year when he has all the talent. Someone will want him who already has an offense in place.

What's the going rate on Frazier promotion again? I think it's two years consecutive 3rd rounders, for a coach, and 3 for a GM?

[Dr.Sack]

Imagine if we had two Von Miller’s. Anybody got more Von’s? 

[Andy1]

That was a fascinating read describing the game within the game on the D line.

[Big Turk]

1 hour ago, BillsShredder83 said:

What's the going rate on Frazier promotion again? I think it's two years consecutive 3rd rounders, for a coach, and 3 for a GM?

 

I thought it was 2 3rds for both

[Scott7975]

I doubt Frazier gets offered a HC gig again. He is old and most teams are looking for young offensive coaches.  Frazier is a great coach and I am glad we have him though.

[iccrewman112]

Best D Coordinator in the league…for the first 29 minutes and 47 seconds of each half.

 

seriously though, his base nickel has been copied by many teams.

[John from Riverside]

2 hours ago, Dr.Sack said:

Imagine if we had two Von Miller’s. Anybody got more Von’s? 

Unfortunately you can’t get guys like him on the end I’ll at Walmart

[Big Turk]

1 hour ago, Scott7975 said:

I doubt Frazier gets offered a HC gig again. He is old and most teams are looking for young offensive coaches.  Frazier is a great coach and I am glad we have him though.

 

I'd love for him to finish his career as our DC

[Chandler#81]

Then there’s this play.

 

[YattaOkasan]

Love the 3-2-6. It’ll be weapon in obvious passing downs with mobileQBs. My only concern is Neal as the 6th DB. I think this role goes to Benford when Tre works back in. Dane will be back up to Elam and White on the outside as Benford offers a bit more physicality from the slot area. 

[Beck Water]

20 hours ago, Big Turk said:

excellent article talking about how Frazier used Miller to go after Mahomes and had the other defenders play off him to contain Mahomes in the pocket. 

 

Frazier used a 3-2-6 alignment to contain Mahomes in the pocket without taking a defender out of coverage along with aggressive spies(and sometimes multiple spies) that would trigger and rush hard towards him as soon as he broke the pocket.

 

https://archive.ph/oShmN

 

Goodness!  That's a paywalled article.  Guess there's nothing the Interwebs "can't get pregnant".

 

I got a question for the rules-minded and football knowledgeable here.

The author comments about a "simple counter" for the Bills "Spy" strategy where Thuney (LG) will attack and block Milano pre-emptively before he can trigger and flow to Mahome.  This is 3rd and 13 from the Buffalo 29 yd line. 

 

If I'm counting correctly, Milano is lurking on the 28 yd line here, and Thuney on the 32, 33 yd line

He moves toward Milano to engage him, and the author's idea is that engaging Milano prevents Milano from triggering.

 

But isn't it true that if Thuney engages Milano more than 1 yd from the LOS, he becomes "ineligible man downfield" on a pass play?  It's a good counter to have Thuney ready to block aggressively if Mahomes scrambles of course.

 

And in fact, it seems to me Milano continues to lurk 1 yd past the LOS watching Mahomes while Thuney waits at the 31 like a chained dog until Mahomes crosses the LOS.  Then Milano shoots the gap and is in on the tackle

 

 

 

I kind of find it hard to believe Milano couldn't evade Thuney and rush up field if he wants - in fact, he backs up a yard at one point during the play, and may even be trying to pull Thuney with him? (unsure about that)

 

Of course, there's a chance that Thuney could get away with engaging Milano downfield and the Zebras wouldn't trigger, it just seems to me it's not such as simple counter because of the "ineligible downfield" rule.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Beck Water

[Big Turk]

3 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Goodness!  That's a paywalled article.  Guess there's nothing the Interwebs "can't get pregnant".

 

I got a question for the rules-minded and football knowledgeable here.

The author comments about a "simple counter" for the Bills "Spy" strategy where Thuney (LG) will attack and block Milano pre-emptively before he can trigger and flow to Mahome.  This is 3rd and 13 from the Buffalo 29 yd line. 

 

 

 

 

 

Haha...yeah archive offers an alternative to that...a lot easier than opening up a DevTools window and reading through the HTML, which is what I would normally do(being a software engineer comes in handy at times  )

 

I believe Mahomes would have to be running or they could have an illegal man downfield issue...I am not sure if that is legal if he is outside the pocket, I know a lot of illegal contact/DPI stuff doesn't apply in those cases

Edited October 20, 2022 by Big Turk

[Big Turk]

17 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Goodness!  That's a paywalled article.  Guess there's nothing the Interwebs "can't get pregnant".

 

I got a question for the rules-minded and football knowledgeable here.

The author comments about a "simple counter" for the Bills "Spy" strategy where Thuney (LG) will attack and block Milano pre-emptively before he can trigger and flow to Mahome.  This is 3rd and 13 from the Buffalo 29 yd line. 

 

 

 

 

 

So here are the official rules for Ineligble man downfield:

 

SECTION 3 - INELIGIBLE PLAYER DOWNFIELD

 

ARTICLE 1. LEGAL AND ILLEGAL ACTS

On a scrimmage play during which a legal forward pass is thrown, an ineligible offensive player, including a T-formation quarterback, is not permitted to move more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage before the pass has been thrown.

 

Item 1. Legally Downfield. 

 

An ineligible player is not illegally downfield if, after initiating contact with an opponent within one yard of the line of scrimmage during his initial charge:

• he moves more than one yard beyond the line while legally blocking or being blocked by an opponent
• after breaking legal contact with an opponent more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage, he remains stationary until a forward pass is thrown
• after losing legal contact with an opponent more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage, he is forced behind the line of scrimmage by an opponent, at which time he is again subject to normal blocking restrictions for an ineligible offensive player.

Note: If an ineligible offensive player moves beyond the line while legally blocking or being blocked by an opponent, an eligible offensive player may catch a pass between them and the line of scrimmage.

 

Item 2. Illegally Downfield. 

 

An ineligible offensive player is illegally downfield if:

• he moves more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage without contacting an opponent
• after losing contact with an opponent within one yard of the line of scrimmage, he advances more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage
• after losing contact with an opponent more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage, he continues to move toward his opponent’s goal line.

Penalty: For ineligible offensive player downfield: Loss of five yards from the previous spot.

Note: An ineligible offensive player is illegally downfield when his entire body is more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage.

 

 

 

So from this wording it appears that this WOULD be legal as long as Mahomes doesn't attempt to throw the ball on the play, OR the contact is initiated within one yard of the line of scrimmage. In the picture you provided, if the LOS is at the 29 yard line and Milano stays where he is on the 28 yard line, that would be a legal block if initiated there, even if they ended up 3 or 4 yards downfield, meaning Mahomes could throw the ball as well without being flagged for a penalty.

 

That being said, if an official sees a guy blocking Milano 4 yards downfield on a pass play I would imagine the flag is probably coming out regardless of where the contact is started since that is almost never seen and the officials aren't likely to be watching where he initiated the block from.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Big Turk

[Beck Water]

9 hours ago, YattaOkasan said:

Love the 3-2-6. It’ll be weapon in obvious passing downs with mobileQBs. My only concern is Neal as the 6th DB. I think this role goes to Benford when Tre works back in. Dane will be back up to Elam and White on the outside as Benford offers a bit more physicality from the slot area. 

 

I'll say this, from watching the video.  Frazier's defense was not possible only because of Von Miller.

 

In signing DaQuan Jones, the Bills essentially signed a guy who could play nose tackle if asked - a guy who actually can and will engage 2 blockers consistently.

And I don't think this notion works without him.

 

[Big Turk]

9 hours ago, YattaOkasan said:

Love the 3-2-6. It’ll be weapon in obvious passing downs with mobileQBs. My only concern is Neal as the 6th DB. I think this role goes to Benford when Tre works back in. Dane will be back up to Elam and White on the outside as Benford offers a bit more physicality from the slot area. 

 

Neal was a beast when he got in the Steelers game...didn't notice him as much in this game.

[YattaOkasan]

4 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Neal was a beast when he got in the Steelers game...didn't notice him as much in this game.

He had two defensive holding penalties.  I also think he had some trouble in coverage.  Agree he was fine in the Steelers game which may have given them confidence to run this defense, but I think Benford is a better coverage player (and overall defender) so is better for this defense.

4 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

I'll say this, from watching the video.  Frazier's defense was not possible only because of Von Miller.

 

In signing DaQuan Jones, the Bills essentially signed a guy who could play nose tackle if asked - a guy who actually can and will engage 2 blockers consistently.

And I don't think this notion works without him.

 

Agree DaQuan is just awesome this year and he is critical.  I think it puts a lot of stress on DL to get pressure (otherwise coverage will breakdown eventually).  Thats probably why we havent seen it in past years.  

[Punching Bag]

On 10/19/2022 at 9:12 PM, Dr.Sack said:

Imagine if we had two Von Miller’s. Anybody got more Von’s? 

 

I am glad there are not. Bills could not afford him which means someone else competing with Bills could sign him.

[Fleezoid]

Well, we can throw this defensive game plan out the window if we face the Chiefs in the playoffs. 

 

The Chiefs coaching staff will be analyzing film and breaking the game down on their own, but all this expert analysis is a bit unsettling. It just makes me realize the game will likely be much different If we play them again. The Bills coaching staff will need to be able to adjust on the fly because you know the Chiefs will throw some wrinkles in to give Kermit more time and space. 

 

Hopefully a Buffalo home game. I'll be a little less nervous. 

[Nextmanup]

17 minutes ago, Fleezoid said:

Well, we can throw this defensive game plan out the window if we face the Chiefs in the playoffs. 

 

The Chiefs coaching staff will be analyzing film and breaking the game down on their own, but all this expert analysis is a bit unsettling. It just makes me realize the game will likely be much different If we play them again. The Bills coaching staff will need to be able to adjust on the fly because you know the Chiefs will throw some wrinkles in to give Kermit more time and space. 

 

Hopefully a Buffalo home game. I'll be a little less nervous. 

I don't think this "expert analysis" will impact what KC does at all.

 

They probably are unaware it exists.  

 

Will they do things differently next time we play, to adjust to what we were doing?

Of course!  That's how the NFL works, at least among the good teams.

 

The key here is that we found some ideas to help keep KC in check, and if they worked once, they can work again.  We'll still need to keep tweaking though.