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Training Camp practice 8/8


YoloinOhio
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1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

   

So, in the short term, what is he?  Depth for Diggs-Davis-McKenzie-Crowder-Shakir?   I think he has stand out for the next three weeks to win that job, either receiving or special teams, and ideally both.  

 

I also think Shakir will be the punt returner by the end of the season.   He's shown very good hands, and he seems smart and dependable.  I think McKenzie will start the season returning, and Shakir will continue to jugs work and practice in the backup KR role.  If McKenzie falters, Shakier will be the guy.  

 

That is the question that could be answered in camp/preseason.  Let's take out ST play for one moment.  I agree with your 5 WRs as locks.

I know not everyone does, but I do.  Shakir can take snaps outside but the "camp question" will be, can he do it full time if needed?

Hodgin is a complete unknown, but the question is can he fill in if needed?

 

Maybe 7 WRs are kept but not all will dress.  Kumerow has PS skills, but his WR skills are a lot less than I originally hoped for.  Kumerow is 30+

and on a one-year contract so I could ask "Is he in the Bills future"?  Hodgins will be 24 on a cheap 2-year and none of us know what he could

bring to ST.  We also don't know if Kumerow's ST spot can be filled with a player from another position.

 

I think the 6th and/or 7th WR spots are totally up for grabs and there are a lot of "other" factors beyond what we see to make a call.

 

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7 minutes ago, unbillievable said:

Like DE last year, there are too many WR's this year.

 

So who has trade value?

No?  McKenzie, Shakir and Crowder have all missed time due to minor injuries. What happens if Davis or Diggs misses time in the regular season? Big drop off at those spots.  Sign OBJ.  You need depth for the stretch run. WR is a critical position 

Diggs

Davis

OBJ

McKenzie

Crowder
Shakir
Kumerow
 

Hodgins PS

Edited by Warriorspikes51
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2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

This is gonna be tough, nothing against him, but this wont be an easy roster to make. 

 

Obviously, Diggs and Davis are going no where, and neither is Shakir given there is 0% chance they could successfully stash him on the PS, not to mention, he has been having an outstanding camp too.  McKenzie as well, he isn't likely going anywhere at this point unless Beane decides he needs to make a trade to make room for someone, then McKenzie might be the only guy who would have any trade value (as they are not trading Davis, Diggs, or Shakir).  But other than that, its safe to pencil these 4 in.  

 

Then you probably still have Crowder and potentially a KR specialist.  Recently McKenzie and even Shakir have taken snaps as the primary returner, so if one of them locks down the job as a primary returner, then that makes the path easier for Hodgins to make the roster.  But we already know they were not happy with McKenzie last year as a returner, and while Shakir did some in college, it wasn't what he was known for.  

 

So if we keep those 4 above, plus Crowder and a KR guy, that would mean we would have to keep 7 WRs for Hodgins to have a chance to make the team.  And that 7th spot will likely also have to be someone who can prove they can be a reliable contributor on ST too.  So not only is Hodgins competing as a WR against guys like Tavon, Stevenson, Kumerow, Pau'u, etc...he also competing to show he can be good on ST, something Kumerow for example has already proven he can be.  

 

Ive always liked Hodgins potential, so be cool to see him keep growing and make the team.  But assuming there are no injuries or surprise cuts/trades at WR, then he likely needs to see us keep 7 to a real chance to make this team, and at the same time prove he can be relied upon on ST.  

 

Kumerow was pretty low on the chart when he played the 2nd game last year against the Pats.  Can’t remember, I think Sanders was hurt.  He was only targeted 3x and caught 1 for 13 yards, but he dropped one in the end zone (tough catch .. but probably should have caught it).  We ended up getting 3 instead of 7.

 

I am not a McDermott mind reader, but as McKenzie knows, I think the coach remembers those ‘oh fudge’ moments.  If we lost to the Pats as the result of a drop, I think he’d pop a brain vein.

 

I realize STs are important, but a few of these rookies sure look to be able to handle the job, thus making Kumerow a possible PS guy.  

 

McDermott’s comment today about Hodgins seemed like more than a warm fuzzy.

 

We’ll know pretty soon, one way or the other.

Edited by hemma
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16 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

No?  McKenzie, Shakir and Crowder have all missed time due to minor injuries. What happens if Davis or Diggs misses time in the regular season? Big drop off at those spots.  Sign OBJ.  You need depth for the stretch run. WR is a critical position 

Diggs

Davis

OBJ

McKenzie

Crowder
Shakir
Kumerow
 

Hodgins PS

 

What is it about OBJ that says "team guy happy to slot into the #3 WR depth role" to you?

 

18 minutes ago, TBBills said:

Whoever doesn't make the team has no trade value.

 

And yet....Beane has consistently been able to collect draft picks for guys most of us here would stamp "no trade value"

Edited by Beck Water
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3 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

What is it about OBJ that says "team guy happy to slot into the #3 WR depth role" to you?

 

 

And yet....Beane has consistently been able to collect draft picks for guys most of us here would stamp "no trade value"

No he hasnt... all the guys he traded had value.

 

So who is he trading and what value you think a team is going to place on them?

Edited by TBBills
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43 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I don't disagree that the "big slot" / athletic TE with receiving chops is a Trend in the league right now. 

 

But you astutely call out the word "athletic"

 

My question was, whether the degree of athleticism that made Hodgins successful in a college big-slot roll is sufficient to allow him to succeed in the NFL?

 

I could be wrong, I just had the impression Hodgins isn't particularly quick, fast or athletic (for the NFL, where the bar is high indeed).

 

Shakir’s 20 yard shuttle was 4.21.  Hodgins was 4.12, which is strong.

3 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Over who? Kumerow? Shakir? Good problem to have.

 

Shakir is safe, for sure.

 

Kumerow would seem to be the one.

Either way, will be a tough cut.  Bet the coaches are already dreading that decision.

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Sal C article

https://www.audacy.com/wgr550/sports/bills/benford-continues-to-gain-opportunities?utm_campaign=sharebutton&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_term=WGRAM

 

Quote

Monday morning here at St. John Fisher University, the Bills defense definitely had the better day.

That was partly because they just played well, but also because the offense didn’t seem in sync and made their share of self-inflicted wounds.

 

Through most of practice, quarterback Josh Allen and the first-team offense couldn’t get on the same page, with several missed throws that seemed just a tick off, or catches that maybe should have been made but weren’t, to outright miscommunication leading to incompletions.

But with all of that comes positives for the defense that was dialed in and rallying to the ball, whether in the air or on the ground.

 

Interesting take about the problems being a lot on the offense. 

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1 minute ago, hemma said:

 

Shakir’s 20 yard shuttle was 4.21.  Hodgins was 4.12, which is strong.

Aside from his height/arm length the biggest positive I've read coming after the draft and tc reports the last few years is ability to create separation, which is vague.

 

I do remember seeing an impressive stat on avg yards of separation (grain of salt needed like any stat).

 

I certainly think he's quick, and then an above average combination of athleticism, route running, length combines for the rest. Interesting prospect for someone we really haven't actually seen

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20 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

No?  McKenzie, Shakir and Crowder have all missed time due to minor injuries. What happens if Davis or Diggs misses time in the regular season? Big drop off at those spots.  Sign OBJ.  You need depth for the stretch run. WR is a critical position 

Diggs

Davis

OBJ

McKenzie

Crowder
Shakir
Kumerow
 

Hodgins PS

 

I think people forget that Crowder would start on the majority of teams across the NFL right now.  We are not as thin as people think.  And you have Crowder as the 5th guy on your list.  Most teams don't have 28 year old accomplished starting receivers as their 5th guy on the depth chart.  

 

2020, John Brown missed a lot of the season and even when back was not 100%.  Yet our 5th WR, McKenzie, only totaled 30 receptions for 283 yards, and almost no production from the guys behind him.  

 

2021, both Sanders and Beasley miss some time and our 5th WR on the depth chart, again McKenzie, manages just 20 reception for 183 yards for the season (with the vast majority of that coming in one game) with the next guy behind him having just 28 yards on the season.  

 

End of the day, anyone below the 4th WR spot, even with injuries, will not see very much production at all.  We don't need to sign OBJ, we are already 5 WRs deep in just Diggs, Davis, Crowder, Shakir, and McKenzie.  Outside those 5 guys, no other WR will even reach 100 yards on the season even if we see some guys miss time.  

 

Not to mention, our RBs as a whole will see more targets this year with the addition of Cook, plus we are looking like we are running more 2 TE sets, which will also reduce snaps for some of the WRs in the middle of the depth chart.  

 

I wont be mad if we sign OBJ, but we are in no way at all thin at WR right now.  Signing OBJ would be a luxury, not a need.  

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16 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

What is it about OBJ that says "team guy happy to slot into the #3 WR depth role" to you?

 

 

And yet....Beane has consistently been able to collect draft picks for guys most of us here would stamp "no trade value"

Obj would basically be a playoff rental if it did happen. He played well, was a good teammate and was cool with being 2nd fiddle to Kupp. 

 

Nobody is talking about a 3 or 4 yr role, but 100% I'd trust him to come in, in December and be a good dude till mid feb. Especially with Josh throwing the rock, being on a sb caliber team (oh and it'd be the best way to increase his next contract value)

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5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I think people forget that Crowder would start on the majority of teams across the NFL right now.  We are not as thin as people think.  And you have Crowder as the 5th guy on your list.  Most teams don't have 28 year old accomplished starting receivers as their 5th guy on the depth chart.  

 

2020, John Brown missed a lot of the season and even when back was not 100%.  Yet our 5th WR, McKenzie, only totaled 30 receptions for 283 yards, and almost no production from the guys behind him.  

 

2021, both Sanders and Beasley miss some time and our 5th WR on the depth chart, again McKenzie, manages just 20 reception for 183 yards for the season (with the vast majority of that coming in one game) with the next guy behind him having just 28 yards on the season.  

 

End of the day, anyone below the 4th WR spot, even with injuries, will not see very much production at all.  We don't need to sign OBJ, we are already 5 WRs deep in just Diggs, Davis, Crowder, Shakir, and McKenzie.  Outside those 5 guys, no other WR will even reach 100 yards on the season even if we see some guys miss time.  

 

Not to mention, our RBs as a whole will see more targets this year with the addition of Cook, plus we are looking like we are running more 2 TE sets, which will also reduce snaps for some of the WRs in the middle of the depth chart.  

 

I wont be mad if we sign OBJ, but we are in no way at all thin at WR right now.  Signing OBJ would be a luxury, not a need.  

 

But the BOUNDARY, man...the BOUNDARY.

 

:lol:

 

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7 hours ago, hemma said:

If Hodgins can make it through camp without injury, imo - he finally makes the team.

Chris Brown on One Bills Live today was going through a depth chart he was sent while on air.  Top 3 were Diggs, Davis, McKenzie; followed by Hodgins, Crowder and Kumerow.  Tavon Austin was listed as the return man.  I was surprised Shakir wasn't mentioned, but I think it's a good bet he makes the team.

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5 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Doyle beating Epenesa is interesting. Either Doyle got better(doubtful) or Epenesa is as bad as we think(more likely). 

Epenesa for a conditional 7th rounder will probably happen in a couple weeks.

That must be why he’s #3 in the DE pecking order right now

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17 minutes ago, jkeerie said:

Chris Brown on One Bills Live today was going through a depth chart he was sent while on air.  Top 3 were Diggs, Davis, McKenzie; followed by Hodgins, Crowder and Kumerow.  Tavon Austin was listed as the return man.  I was surprised Shakir wasn't mentioned, but I think it's a good bet he makes the team.

Interesting.  Almost like KR/PR has been ceded to Austin and the other guys have been competing for backup.

 

correction - i see the depth chart shows McKenzie as kor

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