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Boogie Basham optimism


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5 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I think people put way too much into "draft slot" personally.  He was graded as a late first to second round pick heading into the draft.  I think the fundamental flaw in your post here is you said his draft slot doesn't indicate "elite talent" either.  I think if you said he wasn't an elite prospect, as in top 10 or 15 guy it would be more accurate where those guys are seen as a higher success probability. 

 

But there are plenty of guys who go outside the top 15, outside the first round, even mid rounds who have elite talent potential, but there are just some other things that cause them to slide a bit.  Sometimes, its because they have a low floor, or have some holes that need coached up.  But, I wouldn't say a players drat slot indicates wether or not he has elite talent potential.  

 

Case in point...nothing about Brady coming out of college (especially coming off what I believe is still considered the worst combine performance for a QB in terms of athletic traits in history) was indicated he had elite ability, yet hes widely considered the GOAT now.  Not saying by any means Boogie has that kind of potential, just saying I think its a false conclusion to base a players talent potential based on draft slot.  

 

Another example...Shakir this year...getting him in the 5th round, I do think he has elite talent potential where he could develop into one of the best slot WRs in football.  So much about his tape reminds me of Kupp in how he uses his hands, controls his body, runs his routes etc.  And he has some of Deebo or AJ Brown in him after the catch too where he runs with strength and agility.  Doesn't mean he will, but I do think he has elite talent potential despite a 2nd/3rd round grade heading into draft and an actual 5th round draft selection.  


A) you way overanalyzed a somewhat flippant offhand comment.

 

B) he is at an absolutely elite and often overdrafted position. Only QB tends to run up the board more than pass rusher because they are both huge impacts on a game and rare body types. Boogie slid not because he was injured, or arrested or… it was because of his physical skill set. He is more Andy dalton than josh Allen in that regard. 
 

c) don’t take it personally but I think anyone that points at Tom Brady in a draft discussion should be suspended for a year. Obviously there are exceptions. I bet someone found a winning lottery ticket on the ground before too - some poor guy has been struck by lightning twice- it does nothing to further the discussion. When a guy at the second most important position falls to day two because of his measurables - it’s fair to mention that GMs see him as limited physically. That doesn’t mean it would be impossible to succeed but in discussing a guy who was a healthy scratch  many games, it’s another data point in a small sample of data we have to discuss his future potential. 
 

could he be a 12 sack a year pro bowler? Sure.
 

Is he more likely a hard working, good teammate that does the dirty work while the 12 sack guy across from him gets the pro bowl nods? Yea. 

4 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Yeah we seem to have heard this before

I think we need to let boogie play.....its the best way to determine whether or not he belongs.   I am hopeful that the release of Obada opened up some snaps for Boogie


obada was terrible. That he kept him off the field is also a concern. 
 

I think he will step up a bunch but also think managing expectations for him will be major for how this board perceives him the next three years. 

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9 minutes ago, NoSaint said:


A) you way overanalyzed a somewhat flippant offhand comment.

 

B) he is at an absolutely elite and often overdrafted position. Only QB tends to run up the board more than pass rusher because they are both huge impacts on a game and rare body types. Boogie slid not because he was injured, or arrested or… it was because of his physical skill set. He is more Andy dalton than josh Allen in that regard. 
 

c) don’t take it personally but I think anyone that points at Tom Brady in a draft discussion should be suspended for a year. Obviously there are exceptions. I bet someone found a winning lottery ticket on the ground before too - some poor guy has been struck by lightning twice- it does nothing to further the discussion. When a guy at the second most important position falls to day two because of his measurables - it’s fair to mention that GMs see him as limited physically. That doesn’t mean it would be impossible to succeed but in discussing a guy who was a healthy scratch  many games, it’s another data point in a small sample of data we have to discuss his future potential. 
 

could he be a 12 sack a year pro bowler? Sure.
 

Is he more likely a hard working, good teammate that does the dirty work while the 12 sack guy across from him gets the pro bowl nods? Yea. 


obada was terrible. That he kept him off the field is also a concern. 
 

I think he will step up a bunch but also think managing expectations for him will be major for how this board perceives him the next three years. 

 

I dont take it personally, I am not a fool, I know the exception Brady is, just an more than obvious example of how saying someone doesn't have elite talent before they stepped on a football field is premature and just a meaningless statement.  Which is why I also pointed out to our very own rookie draft pick this year as well.  

 

So no offense, labeling his talent label based on his draft position, which is what you did in the post I responded to, should be suspended for a year :nana:

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3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Personally I still think Boogie was drafted too early, but accept the consensus on him was higher than I was. 

Agreed.  He may turn out to be a good player, but I struggle to see the trait that will make him an above average NFL starter.  I hope I’m wrong.  

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I dont take it personally, I am not a fool, I know the exception Brady is, just an more than obvious example of how saying someone doesn't have elite talent before they stepped on a football field is premature and just a meaningless statement.  Which is why I also pointed out to our very own rookie draft pick this year as well.  

 

So no offense, labeling his talent label based on his draft position, which is what you did in the post I responded to, should be suspended for a year :nana:


ha! It’s just one of my gripes. It’s like going straight to bringing up nazis in a political debate. It just derails the actual point you are trying to make 9 times out of 10 and somehow seems to still be a go to in every discussion. 
 

but yea, that 32 GMs let him slide is an indication of what they thought of his athleticism. Obviously not a blanket statement you can make about the 200 players drafted after the first round but we have context here and it is relevant as a data point in this players discussion

Edited by NoSaint
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9 hours ago, 42Knuck said:

I'm excited about all the young DE's.  Thinking about all the Bills draft picks that took big steps in year 3, I would certainly expect Epenesa to have a similar jump.  Also the fact the Groot had a bf Rookie year should bode well, I just hope he doesn't got he other way into a Sophomore slump?

Groot is so young I can see a real big jump. He gained over 30#s last year, how about this year?

All three are so young. AJ is only 23 now. While I think we need them to win a Super Bowl I think that they might do it.

The DL is the biggest question mark of the year….I the three young guys meld with the five new guys and Ed takes a step (and Ed should as Von will take some doubles away) we win theSuper Bowl. It’s a simplistic way of looking at it but I Billieve we have the rest down.

Eventually, we should have the best secondary in the league.

LB may not be a big strength but it sure isn’t a weakness either.

OL looks good but our depth is another question mark.

We look better than most in weapons, imho.,.

Josh is the best there is.

If we win a Super Bowl it means our lines were at least, “good.”

Maybe very good, we’ll see….

 

Go Bills!

 

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40 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

There’s also a reality that with

 

miller

rousseau

shaq

AJE 


daquan

Oliver

settle 

phillips

 

That Boogie may be fighting for game day active roles still. 

 

 

Sure, yeah, guesses can be considered reality if you're not really sure what reality is.

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7 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Sure, yeah, guesses can be considered reality if you're not really sure what reality is.


If all are healthy… and shaq can return to any semblance of past form back in this scheme - there’s a real chance boogie is DE5 and doesn’t dress until injury strikes. 
 

 

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1 hour ago, NoSaint said:

There’s also a reality that with

 

miller

rousseau

shaq

AJE 


daquan

Oliver

settle 

phillips

 

That Boogie may be fighting for game day active roles still. 

 

51 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Sure, yeah, guesses can be considered reality if you're not really sure what reality is.

 

Posting that Shaq AND Epenesa are just slotted in ahead of Basham on the depth chart (later based on some seriously uncertain criteria) is definitely not substantiated or reasonable to assume until we learn more. Sure, IF Basham falls to 5th on the DE depth chart, then of course his gameday status will be in question. But that's all you're saying here. No offense. 

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17 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

 

Posting that Shaq AND Epenesa are just slotted in ahead of Basham on the depth chart (later based on some seriously uncertain criteria) is definitely not substantiated or reasonable to assume until we learn more. Sure, IF Basham falls to 5th on the DE depth chart, then of course his gameday status will be in question. But that's all you're saying here. No offense. 


I wasn’t making a grand proclamation or anything. just pointing out it may be a real possibility even with a strong off-season and a step or two forward. 
 

I’d venture you referencing him “falling to 5th” is probably not much different than what I put honestly- if not a bigger jump - as frankly his job is to climb out of 5th this off-season. 
 

he was behind AJE last year, so unless you are saying he’s passed him on the depth chart that leaves him DE4 at best, with shaq being a bit of a wild card returning. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, NoSaint said:


If all are healthy… and shaq can return to any semblance of past form back in this scheme - there’s a real chance boogie is DE5 and doesn’t dress until injury strikes. 
 

 

 

 

Fair enough. But of course, there is also a real chance that he absolutely does dress and play every game.

 

Dunno which is more likely. We'll have to see.

 

My guess is it's somewhere between those two.

Edited by Thurman#1
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One of them gets traded. I'd bet AJE, Basham, then Oliver. And I think they could get at least a 3rd for one of them.

 

I think Basham has a Dwan Edwards kind of career where he can contribute across the DL but has no actual position. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, NoSaint said:


If all are healthy… and shaq can return to any semblance of past form back in this scheme - there’s a real chance boogie is DE5 and doesn’t dress until injury strikes. 
 

 

 

Shaq Lawson was a healthy scratch for the JETS in the last couple games and was cut heading into week 18. I'm not expecting him to have more than a minimal role on the team. Basham has inside/outside versatility. I'll be surprised if he's a healthy scratch at any point, unless he just doesn't put the work in. If anything it would be Lawson and Epenesa competing for the final active spot on gameday.

 

Last year we rostered 6 DEs. This year we appear to only have 5 rosterable DEs so I'm not entirely sure what the plan is. Maybe they don't plan on rotating Von Miller nearly as much as they usually rotate the DEs so they're comfortable rostering one less player. But I'm pretty sure they had 5 DEs active on gamedays last year so I think those 5 will all be active nearly every game.

 

13 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

One of them gets traded. I'd bet AJE, Basham

 

Then we'd only have 4 rosterable edge rushers, unless we're counting Mike Love... I'm kind of surprised we haven't added another DE in the vein of Quinton Jefferson or Efe Obada. It's a really thin position group with basically no margin for injury.

Edited by HappyDays
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1 hour ago, NoSaint said:


I wasn’t making a grand proclamation or anything. just pointing out it may be a real possibility even with a strong off-season and a step or two forward. 
 

I’d venture you referencing him “falling to 5th” is probably not much different than what I put honestly- if not a bigger jump - as frankly his job is to climb out of 5th this off-season. 
 

he was behind AJE last year, so unless you are saying he’s passed him on the depth chart that leaves him DE4 at best, with shaq being a bit of a wild card returning. 

 

The bolded is a reasonable counter. That wording of mine DOES seem to carry bias.

 

However, it looks like he ended the season 4th on the depth chart, ahead of Epenesa. And now with two major subtractions, and one major addition and another reunion, his status would likely be the same or one higher (still slightly ahead of Epenesa and possibly ahead or even with Shaq). Depends how we view Lawson's opportunity on a cheap one-year vet deal versus Basham's value on year two of a cheap rookie deal. Either way, he cannot be assumed to be 5th on the depth chart. It just isn't substantiated currently. 

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16 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

One of them gets traded. I'd bet AJE, Basham, then Oliver. And I think they could get at least a 3rd for one of them.

 

I think Basham has a Dwan Edwards kind of career where he can contribute across the DL but has no actual position. 

I’m not sure how you could trade any of them.  Oliver would bring probably a high third or maybe even a second rounder, but that would leave a gaping hole at DT in the middle of a championship push, so I don’t think McBeane would move him for anything short of someone offering up a first rounder.  Zero chance that would be offered, and even then I think he’s so important to the team’s immediate plans that I don’t think it would be accepted.

 

Epenesa wouldn’t draw much more than a bag of footballs, and offering Basham would kill his value.  If you only dress a guy for 8 games and then shop him, you don’t have much leverage.  Both of these guys are going to contribute, IMO.  

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13 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

For the film watchers… is there a reason NOT to be optimistic? Or is it that based on him being buried in the rotation/relegated to inactive sometimes?

 

I thought he did well for the reps he got. I expect his chances to be even more his season, I hope he makes the best of those opportunities. It's way too early to tell though imo.

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