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Looks like the call to squib may not have made it to Bass


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13 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I agree, and that's what I've always said.   I didn't say here that McDermott was supposed to talk to Bass or any of that. 

 

But I don't agree it's "on Farwell.  Period."   And I don't think McDermott would agree, either.  McDermott is about systems and details, and play calling is about the most fundamental detail around.   McDermott's job as head coach, among other things, is to be sure that his coordinators get details right.   In the case of fundamental details, like getting the play called correctly, his job is to be sure his coordinators get those things 100% right.  Farwell didn't, which means McDermott failed to recognize that he had a problem with his coordinator, whether it had happened before or not.   

 

1. Absolutely, McDermott is about systems and details. And that is what they work on all year long: basic, fundamental details. They do that precisely so that he doesn't have to monitor such things during games and, in particular, during critical moments. That is when you are supposed to perform how you practice and train. His job in that moment was to ensure Farwell understood what he wanted. After that, it is the sole responsibility of Farwell to ensure it is conveyed to the players.

 

2. How in the world can you hold McDermott responsible for failing "to recognize that he had a problem with his coordinator" if that problem had never happened before?

 

Edited by billsfan1959
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37 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

1. Absolutely, McDermott is about systems and details. And that is what they work on all year long: basic, fundamental details. They do that precisely so that he doesn't have to monitor such things during games and, in particular, during critical moments. That is when you are supposed to perform how you practice and train. His job in that moment was to ensure Farwell understood what he wanted. After that, it is the sole responsibility of Farwell to ensure it is conveyed to the players.

 

2. How in the world can you hold McDermott responsible for failing "to recognize that he had a problem with his coordinator" if that problem had never happened before?

 

 

There had been some prior strangenesses - remember that busted play where Bojo seemed to think it would be a fake punt or fake FG (I forget which) and tried to pass, while everyone else on the field thought it was just a regular punt or FG kick?  Then there was the blocked punt in the Patriots game where the Patriots adjusted and we didn't, leaving a guy un-blocked

 

But even if he felt Farwell and the system/details were at fault in both instances, they would logically be an instance of "working the problem" and getting it fixed, not "off with his head" immediately.

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18 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

But even if he felt Farwell and the system/details were at fault in both instances, they would logically be an instance of "working the problem" and getting it fixed, not "off with his head" immediately.

I think the non-squib was a very big last straw.  I would guess that McD had issues with how Farwell was doing his job before that game, maybe even knew by the end of the regular season that he would make a change.  I doubt that that one mistake got Farwell fired. 

 

And that's why I think ultimately it's on McDermott.  He had problems with Farwell and failed to fix them.  

 

I don't have proof; just my take on what's likely

  

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13 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

There had been some prior strangenesses - remember that busted play where Bojo seemed to think it would be a fake punt or fake FG (I forget which) and tried to pass, while everyone else on the field thought it was just a regular punt or FG kick?  Then there was the blocked punt in the Patriots game where the Patriots adjusted and we didn't, leaving a guy un-blocked

 

But even if he felt Farwell and the system/details were at fault in both instances, they would logically be an instance of "working the problem" and getting it fixed, not "off with his head" immediately.

 

I think that fake FG pass by Bojo was in 2018 (unless there is a more recent one I am not recalling at the moment) and predates Farwell. I don't recall the specifics of the blocked kick by the Steelers and the blocked punt by the Patriots, in regard to whether they were issues with coaching, execution by players, etc.

 

Part of McDermott's job is to try to distinguish between mistakes, fixable issues, and instances of, as you say, "off with his head." We may never know what actually happened with the kickoff in question, although, Farwell moving on might provide some insight. I believe McDermott is a man of loyalty and second chances if he believes they are warranted - maybe to his own (and the team's) detriment at times. But I also think, those are traits that earn him the respect his players appear to have for him. Perhaps Farwell was one of those instances. Perhaps not.

 

However, until I see some evidence that Farwell was so incompetent that he couldn't be trusted to relay the play to his players, I will continue to say that McDermott's sole responsibility in this instance was to ensure what he wanted was conveyed to Farwell. From that point forward, it was Farwell's responsibility to convery it to the players.

 

In the end, whenever human beings are involved, there is the potential for mistakes to happen, even in critical moments and even by the best trained and prepared individuals. That the coaches and players understand what happened, how it happened, accept responsibility and accountability (where apprpriate), and learn from it is what I am primarily concerned with. Based on what I have observed of the front office, the coaching staff, and the players on this team over the last five years, I am confident that all those things have occurred / will occur.

 

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9 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

 

The end of regulation and the OT reminded me of the 1986 World Series.

 

Everyone likes to point out Bill Buckner's costly error that led to the Mets winning Game 6.  That was the last 13 seconds of the Bills/KC game.  Champagne was loaded into the Red Sox locker room; lockers were covered in plastic.  Then POOF.  I actually had a bottle of champagne sitting on my counter, for Christ's sakes.

 

BUT ... what no one likes to talk about is that the Red Sox had a lead in Game 7, too.  That was OT in the Bills/KC game.  And like the Red Sox, the Bills also pissed away ANOTHER chance to win the game.

 

This loss had a lot to do with the last 13 seconds.  But not everything.  OT was an embarrassment.

 

Leave it to a Boston fan to make this all about themselves

 

Clearly the problem was Farwell which is why he went FAREWELL.  

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6 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I think the non-squib was a very big last straw.  I would guess that McD had issues with how Farwell was doing his job before that game, maybe even knew by the end of the regular season that he would make a change.  I doubt that that one mistake got Farwell fired. 

 

And that's why I think ultimately it's on McDermott.  He had problems with Farwell and failed to fix them.  

 

I don't have proof; just my take on what's likely

  

 

I know a lot of people are (deservedly) upset with McD over this. Hell, I think McD is on that list! But I still admire him for how he handled it afterward. He was vague according to some, but he clearly said it all falls on him as the HC. He didn’t point fingers, or name names. Nothing good would have come of that. 

 

Instead, Farwell wasn’t “fired” but quietly found himself a position in the (college) football Mecca of Jax. There were reports of players being upset, but I think they were mostly attempts to get clicks. YES, everybody was upset, but we lived, we learned, he owned it and we need to move on. I don’t think McD could have played it much better. It was going to be extremely difficult, but he did what he could. 

 

 

12 minutes ago, boater said:

A January 28th thread spurs sudden life March 8th. Talk about necromancing.. wow.

 

Some things sting longer than others……

 

The words “wide right” come to mind. 

 

 

 

.

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3 hours ago, Dan Darragh said:

Leave it to a Boston fan to make this all about themselves

 

Clearly the problem was Farwell which is why he went FAREWELL.  

 

Mets fan, here.  The champagne on my counter was when there were 13 seconds left.

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12 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Bills fans will revisit this loss for a long, long time.  It was a disaster.

 

As the weeks have gone by, my view of it has come down to a simple conclusion:  responsibility for the loss falls squarely on McDermott.  

 

1.  I believe he called for a different kick, and Farwell didn't get the play call to all the players.   That's a failure by Farwell, but it's also a failure of supervision by McDermott.   His job is to be sure that his coordinators are preparing their teams properly, and getting the call to the teams is one of the most fundamental aspects of coaching.  Farwell failed at this fundamental, and McDermott is responsible for having a coach who didn't do the basics. 

 

2.  The defensive calls on the final two plays from scrimmage in regulation time were disastrous, and McDermott was directing the defensive philosophy.   

 

3.  The defensive team had a serious, and understandable, total letdown in overtime.  McDermott needed to get his team emotionally back up.  

 

All of those things ultimately are the responsibility of this head coach, and he blew it.  

 

And, of course, he knows it. 


I agree with EVERY word here! Many weeks later, I’m still so ***** angry, I have never talked about it with my buddies! It was the greatest game in NFL history, punctuated and marred by the worst and most idiotic HCing 13 seconds in NFL history!

 

People on this forum were debating about the squib and calling me out because the Chiefs had 3 TOs. I don’t care if they had 30.

 

They only had THIRTEEN SECONDS!

 

Meaning? A max 3 plays and you wish to eliminate one of them and 3 seconds on the KO. (If you review a couple of recent AFC Championships or SBs, that is exactly what was done under similar circumstances, with twice as much time.

 

THIS WAS ALL ON MCDERMOTT!

 

1) While everyone is going crazy after the Davis TD, it is ALL on him to casually go up and physically grab Bass and the Coordinator and tell them exactly what to do!

2) The Bills had 2 TOs. It is up to McD to call one, the moment KC gets ready for their 1st Post KO play. To tell the D, to chip both Kelce and the Criminal. Not tackle, but give them a shot. Again, a 5/10 yard Penalty is nada, 5 seconds is everything.

 

McDermott cost the Bills a SB! I can never forgive that.

 

 

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59 minutes ago, Billsatlastin2018 said:


I agree with EVERY word here! Many weeks later, I’m still so ***** angry, I have never talked about it with my buddies! It was the greatest game in NFL history, punctuated and marred by the worst and most idiotic HCing 13 seconds in NFL history!

 

People on this forum were debating about the squib and calling me out because the Chiefs had 3 TOs. I don’t care if they had 30.

 

They only had THIRTEEN SECONDS!

 

Meaning? A max 3 plays and you wish to eliminate one of them and 3 seconds on the KO. (If you review a couple of recent AFC Championships or SBs, that is exactly what was done under similar circumstances, with twice as much time.

 

THIS WAS ALL ON MCDERMOTT!

 

1) While everyone is going crazy after the Davis TD, it is ALL on him to casually go up and physically grab Bass and the Coordinator and tell them exactly what to do!

2) The Bills had 2 TOs. It is up to McD to call one, the moment KC gets ready for their 1st Post KO play. To tell the D, to chip both Kelce and the Criminal. Not tackle, but give them a shot. Again, a 5/10 yard Penalty is nada, 5 seconds is everything.

 

McDermott cost the Bills a SB! I can never forgive that.

 

 

 

See the bold at the end. The winner of that game did not win, or even MAKE, the Super Bowl. You are taking too much for granted. THIS is why they play the games, and that was a GREAT one…..with a horrible ending. 

 

He owned the loss, he said it was on him. The team has to move on. I’d kindly suggest you do the same. 

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14 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Bills fans will revisit this loss for a long, long time.  It was a disaster.

 

As the weeks have gone by, my view of it has come down to a simple conclusion:  responsibility for the loss falls squarely on McDermott.  

 

1.  I believe he called for a different kick, and Farwell didn't get the play call to all the players.   That's a failure by Farwell, but it's also a failure of supervision by McDermott.   His job is to be sure that his coordinators are preparing their teams properly, and getting the call to the teams is one of the most fundamental aspects of coaching.  Farwell failed at this fundamental, and McDermott is responsible for having a coach who didn't do the basics. 

 

2.  The defensive calls on the final two plays from scrimmage in regulation time were disastrous, and McDermott was directing the defensive philosophy.   

 

3.  The defensive team had a serious, and understandable, total letdown in overtime.  McDermott needed to get his team emotionally back up.  

 

All of those things ultimately are the responsibility of this head coach, and he blew it.  

 

And, of course, he knows it. 

 

 

I politely disagree.

 

We don't know whose fault it is.

 

Is McDermott ultimately responsible? Yeah, in the sense that the head coach is responsible for everything.

 

But is it his fault? We just don't know. Say that in pre-season they established a system so that on special teams plays, everyone always knows what happen is happening.  Say that they even had this particular situation talked about. Say that McDermott checked on that with Farwell, telling him for example, "Heath, if the kicker isn't in the huddle, it's up to you to specifically talk to one player and make sure that that guy talks to him. Every time. OK? You understand?". And say Farwell confirms his understanding. They realized that plenty of times a kicker wants an extra kick and that he won't always be in the STs huddle, so they specified one guy/coach who would be responsible for telling him the call.

 

So McDermott and Farwell knew this was Farwell's responsibility to tell him and Farwell forgot.

 

Is that McDermott's fault? No. It's his ultimate responsibility, but it's not his fault. There's no way for the head coach to on every play make sure that every player knows his responsibility.  It can't be done in the limited time he has. He has to assume that everyone knows what to do if they've prepared for the situation.

 

Now, on the other hand, say that McDermott never established some kind of official chain of command for that kind of situation. Is that his fault? Hell yeah!

 

Do we know whether he had prepared for it? No. So we don't know whose fault it was.

 

But Farwell's fate is a strong indication.

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9 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

I politely disagree.

 

We don't know whose fault it is.

 

Is McDermott ultimately responsible? Yeah, in the sense that the head coach is responsible for everything.

 

But is it his fault? We just don't know. Say that in pre-season they established a system so that on special teams plays, everyone always knows what happen is happening.  Say that they even had this particular situation talked about. Say that McDermott checked on that with Farwell, telling him for example, "Heath, if the kicker isn't in the huddle, it's up to you to specifically talk to one player and make sure that that guy talks to him. Every time. OK? You understand?". And say Farwell confirms his understanding. They realized that plenty of times a kicker wants an extra kick and that he won't always be in the STs huddle, so they specified one guy/coach who would be responsible for telling him the call.

 

So McDermott and Farwell knew this was Farwell's responsibility to tell him and Farwell forgot.

 

Is that McDermott's fault? No. It's his ultimate responsibility, but it's not his fault. There's no way for the head coach to on every play make sure that every player knows his responsibility.  It can't be done in the limited time he has. He has to assume that everyone knows what to do if they've prepared for the situation.

 

Now, on the other hand, say that McDermott never established some kind of official chain of command for that kind of situation. Is that his fault? Hell yeah!

 

Do we know whether he had prepared for it? No. So we don't know whose fault it was.

 

But Farwell's fate is a strong indication.

Sure, you describe it correctly.  But at a different level it's always on McDermott, and I think he would tell you that.  I think his job is to train his coordinators about excellence and execution, and he would tell you that he failed with Farwell.  

 

I agree with those who say it wasn't  an "off with his head" firing.  McDermott gets rid of you when you have demonstrated that you can perform as you and he agreed you should.  My guess is that McDermott knew sometime before that game that he was going to let Farwell go.  If Farwell had been great in his job until that kickoff, he'd still be in Buffalo.  

 

McDermott knows that he hired the wrong guy and/or failed to train him properly.  That's why McDermott knows it's on him.

  

Frankly, he probably wishes he could have gotten rid of Frazier, too. 

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14 hours ago, Augie said:

 

I know a lot of people are (deservedly) upset with McD over this. Hell, I think McD is on that list! But I still admire him for how he handled it afterward. He was vague according to some, but he clearly said it all falls on him as the HC. He didn’t point fingers, or name names. Nothing good would have come of that. 

 

Instead, Farwell wasn’t “fired” but quietly found himself a position in the (college) football Mecca of Jax. There were reports of players being upset, but I think they were mostly attempts to get clicks. YES, everybody was upset, but we lived, we learned, he owned it and we need to move on. I don’t think McD could have played it much better. It was going to be extremely difficult, but he did what he could. 

 

 

 

Some things sting longer than others……

 

The words “wide right” come to mind. 

 

 

 

.

 

I'm still not over wide right, MCM, and now 13 seconds. When/If the Bills win a Super Bowl then I will be over it. Until that happens those losses will still hurt.

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11 hours ago, Billsatlastin2018 said:

.McDermott cost the Bills a SB! I can never forgive that.

 

 

Does the head coach own it?  Or does the coordinator and / or positional coaches own it?  It's very much how it's interpreted.


Are you 'Bills atlas tin 2018'?

Are you 'Bills at last in 2018'?

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I'm still not over wide right, MCM, and now 13 seconds. When/If the Bills win a Super Bowl then I will be over it. Until that happens those losses will still hurt.

 

I’ve been bummed about Wide Right, since I watched it sail wrong from my Corner End Zone Seat in Tampa! Prolly, because it was the Bills’ first. But, over the years, that hurt has dissipated, because I came to realize Norwood was an average FG Kicker- worse on grass. So, unfortunate.

 

MCM was a very unlucky/ illegal happenstance. ***** Happens! Don’t look back on that one at all.

 

BUT, this 13 Seconds was a completely disastrous, soul destroying, HCing Hall of Infamy FUBAR! 
 

For the critical importance of the game, it parallels Carroll’s completely idiotic decision to NOT run the Beast in from the 1 with 30 ticks to go AND 1 TO.

 

I’m not of the ‘Fire McClapper’ cadre here, but I would be if I knew that he had not covered off most of the following items during the Season:

 

1) That Bass had practiced the Squib 100x.

2) That McD had not discussed this very situation with both Bass & the Special Teams Coach during the Season and the critical importance of eliminating 3 seconds of time by doing it.

3) That he did not activate the plan immediately after Davis scored the go ahead TV- right in their faces.

4) That he had not discussed some sort of chip or block on both Kelce & Hill again after the Davis TD with his DC.
5) That he had not reinforced the same by calling a TO once the Chiefs lined up.

6) And again, after the first play.

 

I want my multi million $ HC to be really, really football savvy and have a high intellect for Time v.s. # of available plays in critical situations!

 

EVERY NFL team should be asking such questions in Hiring Interviews. If a HC candidate cannot figure out simple Math questions of time remaining and TOs available and what to do on either Offence or Defense, they simply should not get the job.

 

Even if these were screwups by either Players or Coaches down the line, the Super Bowl buck always, always, always stops on the HC desk!

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10 minutes ago, Billsatlastin2018 said:

 

Even if these were screwups by either Players or Coaches down the line, the Super Bowl buck always, always, always stops on the HC desk!

 

Which is what McD said and fully accepted. What more can he do? 

 

Now, do you want to fire him, or do you want to move forward and work to do better? 

 

It hurt, but I’ve moved on. I’ve not forgotten (I’m afraid that will never be possible), but I’m ready to look forward rather than backward. Maybe that’s just me. 

 

When (NOT if) they DO win a Super Bowl, there will still be regrets. They just won’t hurt quite as much. 

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14 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

When (NOT if) they DO win a Super Bowl, there will still be regrets. They just won’t hurt quite as much. 


When the Bills win the SB… and for me, it better be sooner rather than later, this will go away!

 

Like the Red Sox no longer letting the ball scoot between Buckner’s legs!

 

Like the Cubs making the final catch, rather than some goofy kid, with a goofy name! 
 

NOT BEFORE!

 

Trust is earned.

Proof is verified.

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