Someone please explain me what Buffalo's defense was doing on the TD Run????

[Billl]

21 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

What if Edmunds read is Dodson? If Dodson fits to the inside Edmunds is outside? Everyone is attacking Edmunds here. I don't know what everyone's responsibility is here, but I'm reading off Dodson taking on the FBs inside shoulder.

Dodson is the OLB.  He took on the block and forced the run back to the middle where he should have had a MLB waiting.  Joke’s on him though.  That MLB was hopelessly lost running ever further out of position.

21 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

What if Edmunds read is Dodson? If Dodson fits to the inside Edmunds is outside? Everyone is attacking Edmunds here. I don't know what everyone's responsibility is here, but I'm reading off Dodson taking on the FBs inside shoulder.

Dodson is the OLB.  He took on the block and forced the run back to the middle where he should have had a MLB waiting.  Joke’s on him though.  That MLB was hopelessly lost running ever further out of position.

21 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

What if Edmunds read is Dodson? If Dodson fits to the inside Edmunds is outside? Everyone is attacking Edmunds here. I don't know what everyone's responsibility is here, but I'm reading off Dodson taking on the FBs inside shoulder.

Dodson is the OLB.  He took on the block and forced the run back to the middle where he should have had a MLB waiting.  Joke’s on him though.  That MLB was hopelessly lost running ever further out of position.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

T

4 hours ago, Billl said:

WTF?  Dodson was the only person on the field who didn’t blow their assignment.  Epenesa ran himself out of the play completely giving up the edge.  Dodson took on the FB and forced the play into Edmunds’s gap.  Edmunds ran clear past his gap.  Milano took a terrible angle, and then the Safety (Hyde IIRC) was nowhere to be found

 

You may find this breakdown helpful.  It shows some of the subtleties the different defenders look for.  Hyde reacted to how Dodson was looking on the TD run. 

 

Or, you may not.

 

 

[First Round Bust]

4 hours ago, Billl said:

WTF?  Dodson was the only person on the field who didn’t blow their assignment.  Epenesa ran himself out of the play completely giving up the edge.  Dodson took on the FB and forced the play into Edmunds’s gap.  Edmunds ran clear past his gap.  Milano took a terrible angle, and then the Safety (Hyde IIRC) was nowhere to be found.

 

It looked like a Chinese fire drill.

It’s possible that Epenesa was supposed to dive to the inside and Hyde was going to back fill the edge.  That would have been fine had Edmunds not hit the wrong gap.  The more I think about it, this seems the most likely explanation.

check the play if you think Hyde could fill the edge - as he was too far from the LoS to do that IMHO

[Nextmanup]

5 hours ago, Governor said:

He creates the best lanes. Backs always look great when they can just cut and dart through where he was supposed to be.

Edmunds aggressively over pursued toward the sideline and the offensive lineman blocking him just helped him run out of position with a big push and just kept his momentum going to the edge, knowing the run was going up the middle.

 

In fairness, most of the D over-pursued; Milano did the same thing Edmunds did.

 

Lots of Patriots were winning 1 on 1 battles all over the  place.

 

We had 10 of 11 players within 4 yards of the LOS.

 

Hyde was the only guy back and he just didn't play it well.

[Kelly's Heroes]

Watched this play a few times, it appears Edmunds is way out of position. He almost looks like he is not even looking at the play and reading it but rather running to a spot. Unfortunately, that spot was not the final destination, he totally was out of position. The Guard got a good block on him and steered him away to the wrong destination as well. Almost appears it was a designed option run. For the Bills Harris read it right. 

 

The kid has all the tools but too many people let him pass on his mistakes. The press has you believe he is a superstar. He may never reach his potential , if he is reading his press clippings. He frequently over pursues on both run and pass plays.  Now, maybe he expected Hyde to be the safety valve on the play and seal it up, that did not happen  because like Edmunds he over ran the play too.  Some other things on the play I noticed was again we see Oliver was unable to get off his block fast enough to provide backside support.  Last statement, the LB captain needs to call a time out on the play to get out of the nickle defense. Nickle may be the right call but not in the conditions of the game Monday night.  Kudos to Belicheck he out coached McD on this round. 

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Kelly's Heroes

[GoBills808]

This is the play and what happened-

 

Both DTs are easily handled 1v1 (in different ways, Oliver’s aggressiveness off the snap is used against him while Phillips simply gets moved) which allows both guards free release into second level

 

Epenesa fails to recognize wham exchange and is moved by Bourne

 

Edmunds is slow to get off his block and Milano simply never does, which opens up cutback

 

Hyde takes really bad angle

 

important to note that with the extra offensive lineman gap responsibilities are likely much different in 4-3 base and so I hesitate to say conclusively that anyone is clearly in the wrong place wrt run fits

 

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

53 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

This is the play and what happened-

 

Both DTs are easily handled 1v1 (in different ways, Oliver’s aggressiveness off the snap is used against him while Phillips simply gets moved) which allows both guards free release into second level

 

Epenesa fails to recognize wham exchange and is moved by Bourne

 

Edmunds is slow to get off his block and Milano simply never does, which opens up cutback

 

Hyde takes really bad angle

 

important to note that with the extra offensive lineman gap responsibilities are likely much different in 4-3 base and so I hesitate to say conclusively that anyone is clearly in the wrong place wrt run fits

 

 

Yes. The real problem happens upfront. Why is Epenesa on the field in a running situation? He's taken out of the play by poor awareness.  A WR took the play side DE out, that's the problem right there. Then our DTs get handled 1 v1 allowing OL to easily reach our LBS who are reading the play all wrong.

 

About the run fits, I do believe Dodson playing inside caused players to fit outside.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Everyone blaming Hyde and Edmunds, especially Hyde, look at this screen shot. If Edmunds and Hyde play it inside that's a big play outside. Bills were in a no win situation. Epenesa creates such a huge cut back lane everyone is wrong no matter what they did. Dodson takes the inside shoulder instead of outside. 

 

[Thurman#1]

9 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I think it's safe to say the Bills thought it was going to be a pass. Only explanation.

 

 

I totally disagree.

 

They had to worry about it, but they were ready for the run. Most everyone in the box. But the pull and pin blocking scheme really worked well, with N'Keal Harry seeming to catch Epenesa from the side, allowing their LT to go after our CB and catch him from the side also. It reminded me of the trap blocking we saw last week work so well against us.

 

They had a man on a man with Dotson most able to choose where he was going to meet his blocker, the FB. He's got to try to take the outside gap, but to also squeeze the inside gap small as he can while still handling outside. Another step inside forces the FB to take the same step to meet him. He ends up leaving a massive hole inside instead of trying to squeeze it a bit.

 

That was going to be a first down once Dotson left him that wide a hole, and Hyde, the only unblocked man, totally ran himself outside of the play, probably from the up guys and particularly Dotson making it hard to know early in the play what was going to happen.

 

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Thurman#1

[bmur66]

I call it getting manhandled

[Thurman#1]

2 minutes ago, bmur66 said:

I call it getting manhandled

 

 

That was certainly part of it.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

11 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

I totally disagree.

 

They had to worry about it, but they were ready for the run. Most everyone in the box. But the pull and pin blocking scheme really worked well, with N'Keal Harry seeming to catch Epenesa from the side, allowing their LT to go after our CB and catch him from the side also. It reminded me of the trap blocking we saw last week work so well against us.

 

They had a man on a man with Dotson most able to choose where he was going to meet his blocker, the FB. And he didn't choose the middle of the hole to squeeze the hole and force the RB to choose and make things clearer for everyone. Instead he hit the edge of the hole, leaving a gigantic wide hole inside and giving the RB a ton of options.

 

That was going to be a first down once Dotson left him that much choice, and Hyde, the only unblocked man, totally ran himself outside of the play.

 

 

Why is Epenesa on the field then? Why is he shooting the gap on a 3rd and 5. Why is Milano playing so conservative? I don't know. Many questions. The Bills were in bad position and that's coaching. 

[Buffaloman]

8 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

What if Edmunds read is Dodson? If Dodson fits to the inside Edmunds is outside? Everyone is attacking Edmunds here. I don't know what everyone's responsibility is here, but I'm reading off Dodson taking on the FBs inside shoulder.

Edmunds is MIDDLE linebacker

 

[Billsfan1972]

3 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Everyone blaming Hyde and Edmunds, especially Hyde, look at this screen shot. If Edmunds and Hyde play it inside that's a big play outside. Bills were in a no win situation. Epenesa creates such a huge cut back lane everyone is wrong no matter what they did. Dodson takes the inside shoulder instead of outside. 

 

Incredible.  Again still don't get it.  On 3rd or 4th & short, yes when 8-10 are line up on LOS that once past the first line the back may score a TD,  but here the Bills had only 4 on the LOS and the rest were covering so loose as if a deep pass was possible.  That picture above shows just how bad they played it.

 

Thanks for the explanations, but inexcusable none the less imo.

[colin]

im not sure which lb was making a mental vs physical mistake, but AJ ran himself inside, behind the initial block, making it easy for the wr to trap him.  i think even just fighting to his right might have gummed up the play (having the fb run into a pile of guys) enough to make a big impact, let alone beating his blocks.

 

even smaller speed DEs like the bosa's and such show enough fight in the run game to make that much harder for the O.  i don't think it's a physical issue w aj, he just made a mistake.

 

platooning our DL kinda gets them not taking so many snaps.  keeps them fresh, but it might hurt them getting learning reps and getting a feel for what the O is doing.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 hour ago, Buffaloman said:

Edmunds is MIDDLE linebacker

 

He's reading the play. The screen shot shows that either decision Edmunds makes he would have been wrong. There was no win there. Same with Hyde.

[Lake Ontario]

If Epenessa is not setting the edge to contain and make sure the play doesn't get outside of him, who on this play has containment responsibility?  I realize Harris cuts back inside so it's moot on this play.  However, on the 2pt conversion, Epenessa shoots to the inside again and on that play they do keep it outside.  I realize there are stunts, but unless we're constantly mixing those in, why isn't he setting an edge?

[SoCal Deek]

People please, it really isn’t complicated:

Edmunds is horrible! 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

26 minutes ago, Lake Ontario said:

If Epenessa is not setting the edge to contain and make sure the play doesn't get outside of him, who on this play has containment responsibility?  I realize Harris cuts back inside so it's moot on this play.  However, on the 2pt conversion, Epenessa shoots to the inside again and on that play they do keep it outside.  I realize there are stunts, but unless we're constantly mixing those in, why isn't he setting an edge?

Exactly. I still believe Wallace was held on that 2 point play. 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Matt_In_NH]

It looked like they made a giant lane the length of the field did Harris to run through.  He took the cheese 

[Billsfan1972]

1 minute ago, mattynh said:

It looked like they made a giant lane the length of the field did Harris to run through.  He took the cheese 

Again how does it happen when they are not passing or even showing any indication that they will attempt any pass play of significance.  

 

I understand when there is a spread, there are holes that could be created, but here there was going to be nothing more then a run or a throw to a back out of the backfield at worst. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

I'm just realizing that the Bills came out in nickle defense on the two point try. Wow were they thoroughly out coached.

[Billsfan1972]

35 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I'm just realizing that the Bills came out in nickle defense on the two point try. Wow were they thoroughly out coached.

Well at least then the Pats had receivers lined up outside.  Another key play.  Stop that and Bills are ahead 13-12 at the end (and also the prior possession may have been differently called in the redzone). 

[RochesterLifer]

Oh good, another outrage thread. Could we have some more, please?

[Billsfan1972]

12 minutes ago, RochesterLifer said:

Oh good, another outrage thread. Could we have some more, please?

Yep I was outraged, but more I was looking as I am not an expert on X&O's to try and understand what happened there as it seemed to me it was 8 Pats on the line vs. 4 bills on a 3rd and 5 and looked like a terrible defensive scheme, especially since no way Jones could have thrown a 5 yard pass against that wind.

 

It's similar to any 3rd & 3 when the DB is playing 10 yards off a receiver and it is a simple pass for a first down.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

14 hours ago, 34-78-83 said:

That mostly aligns with the cover 1 film breakdown of the play although they agreed that while Milano and Hyde MAJORLY over-committed, Edmunds could have slow played it a tad more as well. And AJ was partially responsible as well as mentioned...

 

Could you provide a link to the Cover 1 film breakdown?

 

1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I'm just realizing that the Bills came out in nickle defense on the two point try. Wow were they thoroughly out coached.

 

Look, you have to understand that the choice was:

-Taron Johnson in nickle

-Tyrel Dodson, in base

 

Johnson overall is arguably a better player than Dodson, and Dodson had just had a communication breakdown that contributed to the long run (see link above from Dan Orlovsky)

 

If it was a choice between Johnson and Klein, I would go with you that Klein should have been out there, but Klein had his ass on the Covid list.

And IMO we missed him.

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

11 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Could you provide a link to the Cover 1 film breakdown?

 

 

Look, you have to understand that the choice was:

-Taron Johnson in nickle

-Tyrel Dodson, in base

 

Johnson overall is arguably a better player than Dodson, and Dodson had just had a communication breakdown that contributed to the long run (see link above from Dan Orlovsky)

 

If it was a choice between Johnson and Klein, I would go with you that Klein should have been out there, but Klein had his ass on the Covid list.

And IMO we missed him.

 

Don't forget Epenesa. If I see Epenesa on the field I feel like the Bills are expecting a pass.

[buffalostu2]

16 hours ago, Buffaloman said:

Trumaine Edmunds over ran his gap as he very often does, leaving a beautiful lane to run through

 

Hyde as well. Simple ....... they overpursued

[34-78-83]

16 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Could you provide a link to the Cover 1 film breakdown?

 

also check out the analysis on the run D as they discuss in this stream - (I think its not too far into the show)

 

 

[HoofHearted]

16 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Which was 3 plays after the terrible fumble by Breida (again a terrible call on first down), when the Bills were marching with the wind.

 

Jones had not attempted a pass & it is 3rd & 5 against the wind (Bob Seger anyone?).  

 

Peyton Manning hit the nail on the head.....  No receivers spread out and 8 Patriots on the line vs. 4 Bills and LB's & DB's looking ready for a pass downfield.

 

Sorry I'm not about X&O's, but what were the Bills thinking NE was going to do?

 

 

Bad fits all around. Wallace can't get widened he needs to replace straight downhill when he see's the crack by the WR. Epenesa can't run himself upfield and instead fight pressure with pressure so he doesn't get washed. Oliver, Phillips, and Rousseau all get reached which allows the guards to work directly up to Termaine and Milano untouched. Dotson needs to work more downhill with his attack steps and meet the FB at the LoS tight off of the WRs butt and actually leverage him. Tremaine and Milano can't get kicked when defeating their blocks (that cut back right into where Milano should be. Ultimately it comes down to Hyde over-running the play though. He's the last line of defense in single high coverages. A perfect storm of nearly everyone not executing their responsibility.

Edited December 9, 2021 by HoofHearted

[HoofHearted]

On 12/8/2021 at 8:19 PM, ControllerOfPlanetX said:

 

If Edmunds stays in the MIDDLE...as in MLB...this play doesn’t happen....

If he stays in the Middle then he gets reached by the guard who climbs to the second level untouched and we're not gapped out.

On 12/8/2021 at 11:41 PM, Kelly's Heroes said:

Watched this play a few times, it appears Edmunds is way out of position. He almost looks like he is not even looking at the play and reading it but rather running to a spot. Unfortunately, that spot was not the final destination, he totally was out of position. The Guard got a good block on him and steered him away to the wrong destination as well. Almost appears it was a designed option run. For the Bills Harris read it right. 

 

The kid has all the tools but too many people let him pass on his mistakes. The press has you believe he is a superstar. He may never reach his potential , if he is reading his press clippings. He frequently over pursues on both run and pass plays.  Now, maybe he expected Hyde to be the safety valve on the play and seal it up, that did not happen  because like Edmunds he over ran the play too.  Some other things on the play I noticed was again we see Oliver was unable to get off his block fast enough to provide backside support.  Last statement, the LB captain needs to call a time out on the play to get out of the nickle defense. Nickle may be the right call but not in the conditions of the game Monday night.  Kudos to Belicheck he out coached McD on this round. 

 

We were in Base not Nickel.

Edited December 13, 2021 by HoofHearted

[HoofHearted]

This is what the fits should have looked like.

[GoBills808]

16 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

This is what the fits should have looked like.

This front doesn’t work w Oliver’s technique here

[HoofHearted]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

This front doesn’t work w Oliver’s technique here

What technique? He got reached.

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

What technique? He got reached.

I guess this is a good example of how people can see the same play differently

 

Oliver is lined up at the 1tech but doesn’t command a double…so he imo needs to stack his man at the LOS and make them pay for only blocking him 1v1. Instead he fires off downhill…takes himself out of the play

 

[HoofHearted]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I guess this is a good example of how people can see the same play differently

 

Oliver is lined up at the 1tech but doesn’t command a double…so he imo needs to stack his man at the LOS and make them pay for only blocking him 1v1. Instead he fires off downhill…takes himself out of the play

 

Oliver is a tilted 1 tech and is responsible for the weakside A gap. He CAN NOT under any circumstances "stack" and allow himself to get reached. He wasn't the only one on the line that this happened to by the way. See my previous post breaking down all the failures.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, HoofHearted said:

Oliver is a tilted 1 tech and is responsible for the weakside A gap. He CAN NOT under any circumstances "stack" and allow himself to get reached. He wasn't the only one on the line that this happened to by the way. See my previous post breaking down all the failures.

I read it. It was very similar to what I posted yesterday on this play👍

[Dopey]

17 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Which was 3 plays after the terrible fumble by Breida (again a terrible call on first down), when the Bills were marching with the wind.

 

Jones had not attempted a pass & it is 3rd & 5 against the wind (Bob Seger anyone?).  

 

Peyton Manning hit the nail on the head.....  No receivers spread out and 8 Patriots on the line vs. 4 Bills and LB's & DB's looking ready for a pass downfield.

 

Sorry I'm not about X&O's, but what were the Bills thinking NE was going to do?

 

 

If you watch the play again, as the ball is snapped, we have 10 guys within 3 yds of the LOS. 7 inside the tackles and 3 dbs just outside the tackles, on either side. That doesn't look like they're playing the pass to me. Milano is to Edmunds' left. Edmunds gets blocked, but his presence causes the RB to cut back. Again Milano is on Edmunds' left side at the snap. How the hell does he end up behind Edmunds and further outside the LT for NE?!? Seems like his gap responsibility, since the running play went left. Above all of that was the safety (Hyde?) gets caught over pursuing and is embarrassed.  It was also well blocked. Some on this board have a hard time acknowledging the other team out there is really good. They blocked the hell out of that play. 

IMO, that's not on coach. Milano and Hyde were the reason for the long TD run. 

We didn't lose the game on that play. It's natural to over analyze 1 play, when that was really the only big gain by NE. A lot of guessing on this topic, including me. But that was not playing the pass IMO. Even if the Mannings think so. We didn't make the plays when presented on offense. Thing is, we only needed 1 more play from the offense. They literally and figuratively dropped the ball.

We didn't get our ass kicked, we held them to 1 TD and 2 FGs. We had more scoring opportunities than NE, but again too many drops on our end. Plus Brieda fumbles at NE's 30 yd line.

Reading comments on this board makes it seem we got smoked. Good game that came down to the end. Didn't have to come down to the end, but alas, our offensive players (not coaching) let the team down.

Sorry for the long post. Also, JMO.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Dopey
I can't add

[HappyDays]

Here's Chris Simms breaking it down:

 

https://youtu.be/1_WeXrJxURM&t=1h23m29s

 

His opinion is that Milano didn’t stay disciplined, overplayed it, and left a wide open cutback lane.

[HoofHearted]

7 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Here's Chris Simms breaking it down:

 

https://youtu.be/1_WeXrJxURM&t=1h23m29s

 

His opinion is that Milano didn’t stay disciplined, overplayed it, and left a wide open cutback lane.

Oof that’s a bad breakdown. They 100% were not slanting the front.