Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[SoCal Deek]

Just now, BillStime said:

 

No wonder Trump tried so hard to overturn the election.

And let me guess…Putin didn’t notice that it didn’t work? Was Vlad too busy watching the Olympics? You’re really reaching here today. 

[BillStime]

8 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

And let me guess…Putin didn’t notice that it didn’t work? Was Vlad too busy watching the Olympics? You’re really reaching here today. 

 

You gotta admit, Trump went pretty darn far with his efforts to overturn the election, right?

 

You can admit that right Deek?

[wnyguy]

2 minutes ago, BillStime said:

 

You gotta admit, Trump went pretty darn far with his efforts to overturn the election, right?

 

You can admit that right Deek?

That's only because that election was a fraud.

[BillStime]

6 minutes ago, wnyguy said:

That's only because that election was a fraud.

 

If the election were indeed a fraud - Trump would NEVER have had these losers running around the country like clowns and YOU KNOW IT.

 

 

[Tiberius]

33 minutes ago, wnyguy said:

That's only because that election was a fraud.

Go live in Russia then 

[SoCal Deek]

37 minutes ago, BillStime said:

 

You gotta admit, Trump went pretty darn far with his efforts to overturn the election, right?

 

You can admit that right Deek?

Absolutely…No argument here. I have a unique take on his ‘efforts’ though. 

[Big Blitz]

28 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You will eat ze bugz 

 

 

 

Paid actor carrying out his orders.  

[BillStime]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

And let me guess…Putin didn’t notice that it didn’t work? Was Vlad too busy watching the Olympics? You’re really reaching here today. 

 

Cant hear you - gotta admit, Trump went pretty darn far with his efforts to overturn the election, right?

 

You can admit that right Deek?

[Tommy Callahan]

LOL.

 

 

Referencing the "Erica Marsh and Ron fricken flipkowski" as sources...

 

wasnt this a question on the thread about what sources can be trusted...

 

 

[sherpa]

2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

So let me get this straight. Trump didn’t get a second term. The US didn’t pull out of NATO….and Putin STILL invaded Ukraine. Yep, that entire tweet makes a lot of sense alright. 😂😂😂

 

I wouldn't believe a thing Bolton says about anything.

He has been a crazy warmonger for a long time.

Couldn't get Senate approval as UN Ambassador under Bush when the Republicans controlled the Senate, so had to get a recess appointment.

Hasn't had a day where he didn't want to invade Iran.

Run out of Trump staff, not that that is unusual.

Was suspected of withholding information from Colin Powell during his service because it went against his views.

 

The man needs to be away from govt., and I wouldn't trust a thing he said.

 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

1 hour ago, sherpa said:

 

I wouldn't believe a thing Bolton says about anything.

He has been a crazy warmonger for a long time.

Couldn't get Senate approval as UN Ambassador under Bush when the Republicans controlled the Senate, so had to get a recess appointment.

Hasn't had a day where he didn't want to invade Iran.

Run out of Trump staff, not that that is unusual.

Was suspected of withholding information from Colin Powell during his service because it went against his views.

 

The man needs to be away from govt., and I wouldn't trust a thing he said.

 

And he was branded a crazy warmonger by dems and left-leaning folks when it was fashionable.  Now, a man once reviled by the left for aggressive posturing and deceiving the American people/press/politicians is a beacon of truth.   He's entered Cheneyesque territory.   

 

https://www.vox.com/world/2018/3/22/17153338/john-bolton-national-security-adviser-trump-hr-mcmaster

Bolton has said the United States should declare war on both North Korea and Iran. He was credibly accused of manipulating US intelligence on weapons of mass destruction prior to the Iraq War and of abusive treatment of his subordinates. He once “joked” about knocking 10 stories off the UN building in New York. That means his new appointment to be the most important national security official in the White House has significant — and frightening — implications for Trump’s approach to the world.

[Coffeesforclosers]

5 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

So let me get this straight. Trump didn’t get a second term. The US didn’t pull out of NATO….and Putin STILL invaded Ukraine. Yep, that entire tweet makes a lot of sense alright. 😂😂😂

 

How Ukraine's 1st Tank Brigade for a Russian Force 10 Times It's Size- And Won

 

I mean, EVERYONE knows if you outnumber your enemy 10-1, you attack because they've got no chance.

 

You'd have to be a special type of stupid to ***** that up! 

[reddogblitz]

On 12/27/2022 at 7:29 AM, sherpa said:

Appealing to Russian prisoners to join the fight.

Sounds pretty attractive, eh?

 

Head of Wagner group "recruiting" Russian convicts.

 

I served with several in the Marines whose choice was either go to jail or join the military.  So they joined the military. Smart choice I would say.

 

And Wagner is Russia's Blackwater, er Academi.

[reddogblitz]

On 12/27/2022 at 8:26 AM, B-Man said:

 

 

As a national strategy, though, does the US policy of “heavy aid” make long-term sense? Are we charting a wise course that will pay dividends in our own increased security, or are we getting drawn into an “entangling alliance” that will ultimately play to Russian advantage? 

 

From a sentimental Norman Rockwell perspective, we’ve enjoyed portraying ourselves as giving Little Brother a stick to fend off the town bully. It satisfies our souls on several levels: we can feel (for a change) that we did the “right thing;” we get to witness our technical superiority on an international stage; and, though we won’t much admit it, we also get to enjoy the daily spectacle of watching a tormenter’s nose get bloodied without getting any on our fronts… And God, how we love a scrappy underdog—especially one so decidedly European as a Ukrainian.

 

But the world isn’t a Rockwell painting, and things aren’t always as they seem. What is really at play here, and where do we draw the line of our national interest? We’ve become so inured to “lines” lately—red lines, bright lines, “deconfliction” lines—that it becomes difficult to even know what such a distinction would practically mean.

 

A place to start would be in clarifying our endgame.

 

https://lawliberty.org/who-should-really-support-ukraine/

 

 

.

 

I liked this part of your article:

 

Quote

Instead of ratcheting up the pressure (and expense) for ever-diminishing geopolitical returns, the U.S. could announce it is provisionally plateauing its arms shipments as the conflict grinds into a likely stalemate in the Donbas. Signal that it is ready to ramp up arms deliveries if Russia attempts any further incursions, but that in the interim it is turning the impetus over to its prosperous, motivated, free citizens.

 

Some of the limited things the U.S. government might do during this strategic “idle”:

 

* Facilitate volunteer travel, especially ex-military, who are willing and able to train or fight, with visas and expedited passport processing. Diplomatically clear the Polish and Ukrainian bureaucratic border thickets.

 

* Promote voluntary private donations, such as to the Arsenal of Liberty, which channel donated weapons and ammunition to the front. Help the Ukrainian population bristle with lethal defense.

 

* Give 1:1 tax deductions and credits for all donations to the Ukrainian cause (including hourly in-kind volunteering). Make giving less onerous.

 

Then people like @Tiberius, @ChiGoose, @BillStime,  President Biden, Speaker Pelosi, Vice President Harris, Mitch McConnell, and various and assundry Twitter influencers can give as much money as they want and they and their children can go to Ukraine to help (they can do this right now).   I mean its really really really important to defeat Russia right? Put some skin in the game.

[sherpa]

4 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

And Wagner is Russia's Blackwater, er Academi.

 

I would say Wagner's activities are far more expansive than Blackwater, to include flying Russian strike aircraft.

 

On the Ukranian side, a retired Ukrainian pilot, was shot down and killed a month or so ago.

He was 61.

 

[Tiberius]

14 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

I liked this part of your article:

 

 

Then people like @Tiberius, @ChiGoose, @BillStime,  President Biden, Speaker Pelosi, Vice President Harris, Mitch McConnell, and various and assundry Twitter influencers can give as much money as they want and they and their children can go to Ukraine to help (they can do this right now).   I mean its really really really important to defeat Russia right? Put some skin in the game.

Yes, me and Mitch McConnell should go fight. Lol, are you an idiot? 

 

That is a serious question for you. Because I think you are 

 

Get back to me stupid 

[Tiberius]

14 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

I liked this part of your article:

 

You did? So a "stalemate" with Russian forces occupying Ukrainian territory is acceptable to you? I say give the democratic/republican forces on the ground the power to push the occupiers/fascist out. You are saying, as is the article, that Russia should be rewarded for their invasion by being allowed to keep land--and people-they stole from another country. 

 

That's your position. Rewarding war criminals 

[Tiberius]

And we are learning from this. If there is a next war and we are in it our troops will benefit from having this knowledge and skill against the weapons of the authoritarian regimes 

 

 

[sherpa]

26 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

And we are learning from this. If there is a next war and we are in it our troops will benefit from having this knowledge and skill against the weapons of the authoritarian regimes 

 

We already know how to deal with drones.

First you hack them or jam them.

That's how VIP ground movements are protected.

 

Next, you use any of a number of automatic 20mm weapons to create a metal wall in front of them.

Such systems are available to ships, ground based systems or airborne.

[Orlando Tim]

2 hours ago, Tiberius said:

You did? So a "stalemate" with Russian forces occupying Ukrainian territory is acceptable to you? I say give the democratic/republican forces on the ground the power to push the occupiers/fascist out. You are saying, as is the article, that Russia should be rewarded for their invasion by being allowed to keep land--and people-they stole from another country. 

 

That's your position. Rewarding war criminals 

Why didn't we stop Russia in 2014 with the Crimea? Your argument holds the same water for that invasion as this one, literally same everything. I am actually curious if you have a path to peace without invading Russia? 

[Tommy Callahan]

In March 2014 a coup d'état occurred in Ukraine, led by the ultranationalist organization Ukrainian National Revolutionary Front, which the recently formed government of Ukraine (in the aftermath of the Euromaidan) (Euromaidan had western, five eye, and Nato countries support)

 

Seems every country in the world has different opinion of the Ukrainian "protest" and what led to the counter "protest" in Crimea

 

Did they ever figure out who blew up the north stream pipeline?

 

 

and in the big picture its kinda funny people talk about democracy in Ukraine when the current Ukraine government was formed by a coup and has since banned opposition parties and declared martial law.

 

But I guess when they win (no one has defined what that is), they will just go back to standard elections.

 

never mind the fact NATO declined their applications have been due to a lack of standards around voting, fraud and governement corruption.

 

but now the WEF and the USA has embraced them with open arms (lots of our money) and speeches to joint sessions of congress.

 

 

 

 

[Orlando Tim]

What is interesting to me is that people are acting like in each war there a good side, sometimes it is two bad guys. In WWII Nazis fought Soviets, neither side was good but one was better for us. In this case we have picked the "better" side but it would be best if we came up with a peace plan 

[Tommy Callahan]

1 minute ago, Orlando Tim said:

What is interesting to me is that people are acting like in each war there a good side, sometimes it is two bad guys. In WWII Nazis fought Soviets, neither side was good but one was better for us. In this case we have picked the "better" side but it would be best if we came up with a peace plan 

Some will say we have picked the side we created..

 

but you and I both know that the US government would never work to topple a democratically elected government, if that government didn't align with US uni polar geopolitical ideology. 

 

Not a chance. not ever.

 

 

[Tiberius]

22 hours ago, Orlando Tim said:

What is interesting to me is that people are acting like in each war there a good side, sometimes it is two bad guys. In WWII Nazis fought Soviets, neither side was good but one was better for us. In this case we have picked the "better" side but it would be best if we came up with a peace plan 

Putin is the bad side. 

 

You don't see him as a terrorist? 

 

I guess not many Trump fans do. They can only process the fact that Trump and Putin are deep allies 

[Orlando Tim]

35 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Putin is the bad side. 

 

You don't see him as a terrorist? 

 

I guess not many Trump fans do. They can only process the fact that Trump and Putin are deep allies 

Is it hard being so stupid? Reread what I wrote and respond to it, because otherwise you legitimately are not worthy of this discussion. 

[Tiberius]

Quote

 

In combative mood, Mr Putin said: "We always knew, and today it is confirmed to us yet again, that a sovereign, independent and secure future for Russia depends only on us, on our strength and will."

He presented the invasion of Ukraine's sovereign territory as "defending our people and our historical lands" and said "moral, historical rightness is on our side".

Mr Putin also accused the West of "provoking" Moscow to launch its invasion of Ukraine on 24 February.

"The West lied about peace. It was preparing for aggression... and now they are cynically using Ukraine and its people to weaken and split Russia," he said.

 

 

The terrorist speaks   

 

[SoCal Deek]

On 12/6/2021 at 5:43 AM, SoCal Deek said:

These are all stupid little squabbles over stupid little countries stirred up by stupid little ‘leaders’ who seem desperate to send young men off to die. There’s been no significant border changes in the last century and yet here we are with countless graves piled up and countless treasures wasted. My two cents.

I went back to read the very first page of this thread, started by Tibs over a YEAR ago. Nothing significant has changed in what anyone has said about the topic.
 

So….I’ll stand by my first post! 

[Tiberius]

Another set of suicide charges? We had better start negotiating with Putin before he wastes away more of his lousy army 

 

 

 

[Tommy Callahan]

Any updates. has democracy won in that country?  any voting?

Shoot, what's the military goal?  never ending war with never ending western monetary support?

 

What's the end game?  for Ukraine to take all the regions back?  go further into Russia?  take the war to Russia?  Wait for the embargo to weaken their economy?

 

 

 

[B-Man]

 

 

Ukraine War Kicks Off 2023 with a Very Big Bang. “It’s the single-deadliest known strike in months.”

 

https://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/2023/01/02/ukraine-war-kicks-off-2023-with-a-very-big-bang-n1657838

 

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

Is Russia’s economy in tatters yet? (Asking for a friend.)

[Tiberius]

3 hours ago, Chris farley said:

Any updates. has democracy won in that country?  any voting?

Shoot, what's the military goal?  never ending war with never ending western monetary support?

 

What's the end game?  for Ukraine to take all the regions back?  go further into Russia?  take the war to Russia?  Wait for the embargo to weaken their economy?

 

End game is to win. 

Democracy took a huge step forward (don't cry too hard) with Russian terrorists being driven back. 

 

 

Want to really hurt Ukraine? Try winning elections here in USA. Thank God the American people have rejected your group, though 

3 hours ago, Chris farley said:

 

 

32 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

Ukraine War Kicks Off 2023 with a Very Big Bang. “It’s the single-deadliest known strike in months.”

 

https://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/2023/01/02/ukraine-war-kicks-off-2023-with-a-very-big-bang-n1657838

 

 

 

Nice to see Ukraine getting better at knocking down the terrorist drones. 

[B-Man]

 

 

 

A BIT LIKE THE NY TIMES AND WASHINGTON POST AND ETCETERA: 

 

Russia Reports All The News That Fits

 

…In 2022 Putin’s political fortunes took a turn for the worse when his invasion of Ukraine quickly failed with the loss of thousands of armored vehicles, most of the combat unit officers and such high troop losses that he found a growing number of Russians turning against him. If not stabilized or reversed, that shift in public opinion could prove fatal for his continued ability to rule Russia.

 

Putin’s solution was to order the dezinformatsiya operation to cooperate with the VGTRK (All-Russia State Television and Radio Company) to convince Russians that the Ukraine operation was not a failure but had succeeded in stalling and exposing a secret NATO plan to weaken Russia and render it unable to rebuild the Russian empire and make Russia great again. Or at least keep Putin in power.

 

 

Some Kremlin context for understanding Twitter, the CDC and the FBI in the pre-Musk era.

 

 

https://strategypage.com/htmw/htiw/articles/20230104.aspx

[Tiberius]

 

2 hours ago, B-Man said:

 

 

 

A BIT LIKE THE NY TIMES AND WASHINGTON POST AND ETCETERA: 

 

Russia Reports All The News That Fits

 

…In 2022 Putin’s political fortunes took a turn for the worse when his invasion of Ukraine quickly failed with the loss of thousands of armored vehicles, most of the combat unit officers and such high troop losses that he found a growing number of Russians turning against him. If not stabilized or reversed, that shift in public opinion could prove fatal for his continued ability to rule Russia.

 

Putin’s solution was to order the dezinformatsiya operation to cooperate with the VGTRK (All-Russia State Television and Radio Company) to convince Russians that the Ukraine operation was not a failure but had succeeded in stalling and exposing a secret NATO plan to weaken Russia and render it unable to rebuild the Russian empire and make Russia great again. Or at least keep Putin in power.

 

 

Some Kremlin context for understanding Twitter, the CDC and the FBI in the pre-Musk era.

 

 

https://strategypage.com/htmw/htiw/articles/20230104.aspx

So people at the NYtimes get tossed out windows for publishing something a leader does not like? 

 

You are comparing the free press to the garbage spewed by a dictatorship. You really must hate this country and our freedoms if you ar spewing that nonsense 

[B-Man]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

 

You are comparing the free press to the garbage spewed by a dictatorship. You really must hate this country and our freedoms if you ar spewing that nonsense 

 

 

You must not have read the link, it is critical of Russia's attempt at misinformation.

 

Good Lord Tibs, try to not embarrass yourself !

[Tiberius]

 

[Tiberius]

 

[B-Man]

 

 

No.

 

It doesn't mean stop support, but it DOES mean that Americans deserve a full accounting !

 

 

 

[Tiberius]

7 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

No.

 

It doesn't mean stop support, but it DOES mean that Americans deserve a full accounting !

 

 

 

No? It literally says stop giving them weapons (blank check) 

 

Why do you guys want to help Putin so much? WTF is it with you people? 

[B-Man]

14 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

No? It literally says stop giving them weapons (blank check) 

 

Why do you guys want to help Putin so much? WTF is it with you people? 

 

 

Your first comment (weapons = blank check) is so absurd there is no proper response

 

Your second comment, that "we" want to help Putin,   you know is false from previous comments "we" have made here.

 

and yet you keep claiming it when discussion is attempted.

 

Why is that ?

 

Don't bother answering "we" know why.

 

 

 

 

 

 

.