Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[All_Pro_Bills]

6 hours ago, Tiberius said:

How about Putin? Do you consider him a terrorist? 

And explain please how your question is relevant in any way to my comment?

 

[aristocrat]

 

[L Ron Burgundy]

8 hours ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

 

Well, I can't think of a better way to bring someone around to my point of view. I should start all negotiations or trainings by calling my audience "clueless ***** morons".  You know, since "Deplorables" is already taken. 

Dude, covid utterly broke this man.  He's probably holding back a bit on this forum too.  His brain is probably straight out of sci fi.  I wouldn't be shocked if he believes the global elites are lizard people.  Don't even try here there's nothing reasonable only insanity.   

[L Ron Burgundy]

55 minutes ago, aristocrat said:

 

What's your point?

 

These groups are prevalent there because Russia has been trying to overrun them one way or another since they existed.  It was a BS excuse to invade.  I'd bet that after seeing so many different parts of the world help, and fight alongside them, they'll change a bit and not be so racist once the war ends.  It's an example on how nationalism can turn into racism. 

 

These groups started simply having pride for their country and it morphed into something negative for some.  Ukraine is not a great place.  They are trying to get away from Russian influence and become more western.  

 

 

[aristocrat]

15 minutes ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

What's your point?

 

These groups are prevalent there because Russia has been trying to overrun them one way or another since they existed.  It was a BS excuse to invade.  I'd bet that after seeing so many different parts of the world help, and fight alongside them, they'll change a bit and not be so racist once the war ends.  It's an example on how nationalism can turn into racism. 

 

These groups started simply having pride for their country and it morphed into something negative for some.  Ukraine is not a great place.  They are trying to get away from Russian influence and become more western.  

 

 

I’ll believe it when I see it. Right now take a step back and ask yourself if it looks too good to be true.  The scandals will come. 

[L Ron Burgundy]

15 minutes ago, aristocrat said:

I’ll believe it when I see it. Right now take a step back and ask yourself if it looks too good to be true.  The scandals will come. 

Scandals about what?  Helping them while they had this minority of idiots?  General corruption?

 

We have skinheads/extremists too.  And ours can get high power weapons much, much easier.  

 

Personally I think Ukraine is a shi*hole country but we're doing the right thing.   They want to be part of Europe and not another Chechnya. 

[Big Blitz]

Oh?

 

 

[aristocrat]

 

[Tiberius]

Interesting story of the resistance 

 

https://dnyuz.com/2022/12/25/how-citizen-spies-foiled-putins-grand-plan-for-one-ukrainian-city/

 

Guided by contacts in the Ukrainian security services, an assembly of ordinary citizens formed themselves into a grass-roots resistance movement. In dozens of interviews, residents and Ukrainian officials described how retirees like Mr. Yermolenko — along with students, mechanics, grandmothers, and even a wealthy couple who were fixing up their yacht and got trapped in the city for the better part of a year — became spirited partisans for the Kherson underground. It was almost like something out of a spy movie.

They took clandestine videos of Russian troops and sent them to Ukrainian forces along with map coordinates. They used code names and passwords to circulate guns and explosives right under the Russians’ noses. Some even formed small attack teams that picked off Russian soldiers at night, making the fear and paranoia that settled over the city two-sided.

[Coffeesforclosers]

6 hours ago, aristocrat said:

 

 

What's her source for those numbers?

 

 

[aristocrat]

32 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

What's her source for those numbers?

 

 

Trying to remember my history but the French went into some debt to loan us money and we paid back a settlement of I believe half but at some point France wanted the rest as well and we almost went to war over it. 
 

why not have Ukraine pay us back? Some or all would shut a lot of people up. 

[L Ron Burgundy]

7 hours ago, aristocrat said:

 

Russia invaded for resources,  namely natural gas plus shipping routes.

 

Could we have something in place to later get some or all of our money back?  I legitimately don't know.  I hope we do.  Normally you would think there's no way they could pay but they have considerable untapped resources.  Apologies if that was discussed previously. 

[PetermansRedemption]

7 hours ago, aristocrat said:

Trying to remember my history but the French went into some debt to loan us money and we paid back a settlement of I believe half but at some point France wanted the rest as well and we almost went to war over it. 
 

why not have Ukraine pay us back? Some or all would shut a lot of people up. 

I’ve often wondered this. Something similar to the lend-lease act of WW2 seems to be quite fair. It’s not going to stop them from buying the weapons. And if they lose, they pay nothing back anyways. 

[Tommy Callahan]

Milestones: 1784–1800 - Office of the Historian (state.gov)

 

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1784-1800/loans

 

According to that it was paid off in 1795.  at least the French debt.

 

 

 

 

[Tiberius]

11 minutes ago, Chris farley said:

Milestones: 1784–1800 - Office of the Historian (state.gov)

 

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1784-1800/loans

 

According to that it was paid off in 1795.  at least the French debt.

 

 

 

 

Paid off? Not really. It was refinanced 

 

As if that has anything at all to do with today...

[Tommy Callahan]

9 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Paid off? Not really. It was refinanced 

 

As if that has anything at all to do with today...

not according to the article.

 

In 1795, the United States was finally able to settle its debts with the French Government with the help of James Swan, an American banker who privately assumed French debts at a slightly higher interest rate. Swan then resold these debts at a profit on domestic U.S. markets. The United States no longer owed money to foreign governments, although it continued to owe money to private investors both in the United States and in Europe.

 

but maybe I could find something on that amazing DNYUZ site.  LOL

 

"DNyuz is an Armenian website that plagiarizes content word for word from major news sources. They literally copy and paste entire articles and embed their advertising code for profit. As one can imagine, a source like this completely lacks transparency as there is zero information to be found about authors, owners, location, or mission."

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/dnyuz/#:~:text=DNyuz is an Armenian website that plagiarizes content,be found about authors%2C owners%2C location%2C or mission.

 

And is in line with the latest post on this thread.

 

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by Chris farley

[BillStime]

So many mysterious Russian falls leading to death… authorities should dig up Ivana and really investigate what happened to her….

 

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by BillStime

[Tiberius]

1 hour ago, BillStime said:

So many mysterious Russian falls leading to death… authorities should dig up Ivana at really investigate what happened to her….

 

 

MAGA wants Trump to be able to do that to any Americans that dare complain about his criminality 

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

MAGA wants Trump to be able to do that to any Americans that dare complain about his criminality 

A trick previously perfected by the Clintons.  The difference is you conjure up some fantasy attacking a political movement without evidence of any kind to make a preposterous claim while the Clintons legacy is littered with a documented trail of bodies from Arkansas to Washington.

[BillStime]

10 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

A trick previously perfected by the Clintons.  The difference is you conjure up some fantasy attacking a political movement without evidence of any kind to make a preposterous claim while the Clintons legacy is littered with a documented trail of bodies from Arkansas to Washington.

[L Ron Burgundy]

4 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

A trick previously perfected by the Clintons.  The difference is you conjure up some fantasy attacking a political movement without evidence of any kind to make a preposterous claim while the Clintons legacy is littered with a documented trail of bodies from Arkansas to Washington.

A documented trail lacking a small thing.  Proof.  All just conjecture and coincidence.   Which is all the right has nowadays.  That and defending an orange fraud and his idiot minions that tried to subvert an election.   No real plans to make the country better other than railing about the border.  

[All_Pro_Bills]

9 hours ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

A documented trail lacking a small thing.  Proof.  All just conjecture and coincidence.   Which is all the right has nowadays.  That and defending an orange fraud and his idiot minions that tried to subvert an election.   No real plans to make the country better other than railing about the border.  

And other than the goal to feminize men what is the Democrats plan for America? 

Edited December 27, 2022 by All_Pro_Bills

[sherpa]

Appealing to Russian prisoners to join the fight.

Sounds pretty attractive, eh?

 

Head of Wagner group "recruiting" Russian convicts.

[Tommy Callahan]

11 minutes ago, sherpa said:

Appealing to Russian prisoners to join the fight.

Sounds pretty attractive, eh?

 

Head of Wagner group "recruiting" Russian convicts.

Wagner is mercs that will hire anyone that can fight.

 

same with the western Mercs fighting on the Ukraine front lines

 

 

[Westside]

12 hours ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

A documented trail lacking a small thing.  Proof.  All just conjecture and coincidence.   Which is all the right has nowadays.  That and defending an orange fraud and his idiot minions that tried to subvert an election.   No real plans to make the country better other than railing about the border.  

You must have been asleep in 2016 with all the crying over russian interference. You keep on defending the man with oatmeal for brains who has a history of being a racist. 
 

I guess that makes you so much better than Trump supporters. 

[B-Man]

 

 

As a national strategy, though, does the US policy of “heavy aid” make long-term sense? Are we charting a wise course that will pay dividends in our own increased security, or are we getting drawn into an “entangling alliance” that will ultimately play to Russian advantage? 

 

From a sentimental Norman Rockwell perspective, we’ve enjoyed portraying ourselves as giving Little Brother a stick to fend off the town bully. It satisfies our souls on several levels: we can feel (for a change) that we did the “right thing;” we get to witness our technical superiority on an international stage; and, though we won’t much admit it, we also get to enjoy the daily spectacle of watching a tormenter’s nose get bloodied without getting any on our fronts… And God, how we love a scrappy underdog—especially one so decidedly European as a Ukrainian.

 

But the world isn’t a Rockwell painting, and things aren’t always as they seem. What is really at play here, and where do we draw the line of our national interest? We’ve become so inured to “lines” lately—red lines, bright lines, “deconfliction” lines—that it becomes difficult to even know what such a distinction would practically mean.

 

A place to start would be in clarifying our endgame.

 

https://lawliberty.org/who-should-really-support-ukraine/

 

 

.

[BillStime]

2 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

As a national strategy, though, does the US policy of “heavy aid” make long-term sense? Are we charting a wise course that will pay dividends in our own increased security, or are we getting drawn into an “entangling alliance” that will ultimately play to Russian advantage? 

 

From a sentimental Norman Rockwell perspective, we’ve enjoyed portraying ourselves as giving Little Brother a stick to fend off the town bully. It satisfies our souls on several levels: we can feel (for a change) that we did the “right thing;” we get to witness our technical superiority on an international stage; and, though we won’t much admit it, we also get to enjoy the daily spectacle of watching a tormenter’s nose get bloodied without getting any on our fronts… And God, how we love a scrappy underdog—especially one so decidedly European as a Ukrainian.

 

But the world isn’t a Rockwell painting, and things aren’t always as they seem. What is really at play here, and where do we draw the line of our national interest? We’ve become so inured to “lines” lately—red lines, bright lines, “deconfliction” lines—that it becomes difficult to even know what such a distinction would practically mean.

 

A place to start would be in clarifying our endgame.

 

https://lawliberty.org/who-should-really-support-ukraine/

 

 

.

End game:

 

[Tiberius]

4 hours ago, Chris farley said:

Wagner is mercs that will hire anyone that can fight.

 

same with the western Mercs fighting on the Ukraine front lines

 

 

Not the same. Ukraine is defending itself, Russia is trying to conquer and enslave a people. 

 

How is that the same? 

[sherpa]

6 hours ago, Chris farley said:

Wagner is mercs that will hire anyone that can fight.

 

same with the western Mercs fighting on the Ukraine front lines

 

 

 

I'm guessing the firing squad execution part of the deal is a bit different. 

[Coffeesforclosers]

8 hours ago, B-Man said:

 

 

As a national strategy, though, does the US policy of “heavy aid” make long-term sense? Are we charting a wise course that will pay dividends in our own increased security, or are we getting drawn into an “entangling alliance” that will ultimately play to Russian advantage? 

 

From a sentimental Norman Rockwell perspective, we’ve enjoyed portraying ourselves as giving Little Brother a stick to fend off the town bully. It satisfies our souls on several levels: we can feel (for a change) that we did the “right thing;” we get to witness our technical superiority on an international stage; and, though we won’t much admit it, we also get to enjoy the daily spectacle of watching a tormenter’s nose get bloodied without getting any on our fronts… And God, how we love a scrappy underdog—especially one so decidedly European as a Ukrainian.

 

But the world isn’t a Rockwell painting, and things aren’t always as they seem. What is really at play here, and where do we draw the line of our national interest? We’ve become so inured to “lines” lately—red lines, bright lines, “deconfliction” lines—that it becomes difficult to even know what such a distinction would practically mean.

 

A place to start would be in clarifying our endgame.

 

https://lawliberty.org/who-should-really-support-ukraine/

 

 

.

 

What a terrible take from someone who should know better based on their credentials.

 

None of these pseudo-intellectual op eds begins their argument with the most persuasive point they could make. Which is how Russia is better off now politically, economically, socially and militarily, than it was on February 23, 2022.  They don't because it's an impossible case to make.

 

Instead, we get a lot of SAT word salad about how we should interrupt Russia while it's making a mistake. Also about how it's a terrible diplomatic, moral and economic blunder to disincentivize pointless wars of conquest. 

 

What nonsense. 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

2 hours ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

What a terrible take from someone who should know better based on their credentials.

 

None of these pseudo-intellectual op eds begins their argument with the most persuasive point they could make. Which is how Russia is better off now politically, economically, socially and militarily, than it was on February 23, 2022.  They don't because it's an impossible case to make.

 

Instead, we get a lot of SAT word salad about how we should interrupt Russia while it's making a mistake. Also about how it's a terrible diplomatic, moral and economic blunder to disincentivize pointless wars of conquest. 

 

What nonsense. 

 

I think the US goal is simple.  To maintain the uni-polar world order where the US calls the shots and makes the rules, and everybody follows those rules.  Threats to that order need to be addressed economically, politically, and if necessary, through military force.  Major threats to that order being Russia, China, Iran to name a few.  Ukraine provides an opportunity to address one of those threats via a proxy country doing the fighting while our leaders play the democracy card in order to solicit domestic support for the program without informing an American public mostly oblivious to this Imperial arrangement of the true motivation.  I think that's it.  

[Tiberius]

9 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

I think the US goal is simple.  To maintain the uni-polar world order where the US calls the shots and makes the rules, and everybody follows those rules.  Threats to that order need to be addressed economically, politically, and if necessary, through military force.  Major threats to that order being Russia, China, Iran to name a few.  Ukraine provides an opportunity to address one of those threats via a proxy country doing the fighting while our leaders play the democracy card in order to solicit domestic support for the program without informing an American public mostly oblivious to this Imperial arrangement of the true motivation.  I think that's it.  

What do you mean by "uni-polar" world order? 

 

You sound like you think it would be better if Russia had more influence

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

What do you mean by "uni-polar" world order? 

 

You sound like you think it would be better if Russia had more influence

I've explained what I mean as clearly as possible.    

[Tiberius]

47 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

I've explained what I mean as clearly as possible.    

You make it sound like the democratic rule based world order is a bad thing, just like Putin thinks 

[sherpa]

11 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

I think the US goal is simple.  To maintain the uni-polar world order where the US calls the shots and makes the rules, and everybody follows those rules.  Threats to that order need to be addressed economically, politically, and if necessary, through military force.  Major threats to that order being Russia, China, Iran to name a few.  Ukraine provides an opportunity to address one of those threats via a proxy country doing the fighting while our leaders play the democracy card in order to solicit domestic support for the program without informing an American public mostly oblivious to this Imperial arrangement of the true motivation.  I think that's it.  

 

As long as the ret of the world continues to go to the US taxpayer to solve serious issues brought on by those regimes,  and I would add North Korea to the list, I think the US has earned the right to insist on a strident consideration of its views.

The useless UN and the exposure of the European NATO weaknesses should be in focus after this latest calamity.

That's not US muscle wielding.

It's long overdue common sense.

[Tiberius]

Missiles again rain down on Ukraine. Putin's mad war against an innocent people continues 

[BillStime]

Say what?

 

 

CC:  Putin got everything he wanted out of his ASSet and more.

 

On 12/26/2022 at 1:34 PM, Chris farley said:

And what was that exactly? 

 

 

fn idiots

 

 

[Tiberius]

 

[SoCal Deek]

10 minutes ago, BillStime said:

Say what?

 

 

CC:  Putin got everything he wanted out of his ASSet and more.

 

 

fn idiots

 

 

So let me get this straight. Trump didn’t get a second term. The US didn’t pull out of NATO….and Putin STILL invaded Ukraine. Yep, that entire tweet makes a lot of sense alright. 😂😂😂

[BillStime]

13 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

So let me get this straight. Trump didn’t get a second term. The US didn’t pull out of NATO….and Putin STILL invaded Ukraine. Yep, that entire tweet makes a lot of sense alright. 😂😂😂

 

No wonder Trump tried so hard to overturn the election.