AP exclusive: Bills propose new 60k seat stadium by (update - 2025)

[TheFunPolice]

3 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Cold weather isn’t bad weather.  OP is the windiest stadium in the NFL.  How many times have the uprights at Lambeau tilted?  
How many 5 yard passes did Brady throw where the wind pushes the ball sideways?

 

Right, and they can design the stadium to mitigate that just like in Seattle. 

 

[cba fan]

22 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Your question answers itself.    Let's say $1 billion of that $1.5 billion is public money.   That's the public paying $1 billion to for the benefit of maybe 100,000 fans who go to games, as well as the several hundred thousand more who want to keep the team in Buffalo.   

 

The next $1.5 billion, to put a dome on the place, just benefits the 100,000 who go to the games.   There are a million other people around the state, and several hundred thousand around western New York, who can rightfully say, "Why aren't you spending that $1.5 billion on me?"   Spending public money to keep the team is one thing; spending it make you more comfortable when you go to the games is something else entirely. 

public money goes to non sports fans at a much much higher rate. Schools colleges Parks swimming pools Walmart super centers tif districts bike paths museums art gallery civic centers tourists sites public outdoor bb courts and baseball fields and hockey ice hike paths nature centers botanical gardens zoos etc etc....... 

 

sports fans just asking for a piece of the pie.

 

and your est of how many Bills fans are in area and also est of how many fans want Bills to stay in WNY is absurdly way too low. 

[cba fan]

2 hours ago, Irv said:

You’d have to heat and cool a dome too I’m sure.  

70k fans heat it up just like the Mall of America does.

 

And with most games in fall and winter the need for AC will be almost non existent for Bills games. For other year round events yes will need AC. Don't make Carrier Dome mistake and build without AC.

 

Any additional cost for this or the roof will be more than completely recovered by increased tix sales alone.

[thronethinker]

32 minutes ago, cba fan said:

And with most games in fall and winter the need for AC will be almost non existent for Bills games. For other year round events yes will need AC. Don't make Carrier Dome mistake and build without AC.

 

I find it somewhat funny that the CARRIER Dome doesn't have AC.

 

[cba fan]

7 hours ago, Since1981 said:

That old Texas Stadium style would appear fix my core issue with Anti-competitive highest wind in NFL
 

Legit question. does an open air have more maintenance or repair over time?  Water/freeze cycles seem to cause problems with any structure. 

both. It cost more to build weatherproof and waterproof/mitigation open air and more to maintain.

8 minutes ago, thronethinker said:

I find it somewhat funny that the CARRIER Dome doesn't have AC.

 

yeah me too. LOL crazy.

 

It would be like Ford doing naming rights for a stadium in Tokyo.

[LeGOATski]

10 minutes ago, cba fan said:

both. It cost more to build weatherproof and waterproof/mitigation open air and more to maintain.

Technological advancements have reduced the costs of this as well, like using highly durable and low maintenance ETFE plastic.

[That's No Moon]

1 hour ago, cba fan said:

70k fans heat it up just like the Mall of America does.

 

And with most games in fall and winter the need for AC will be almost non existent for Bills games. For other year round events yes will need AC. Don't make Carrier Dome mistake and build without AC.

 

Any additional cost for this or the roof will be more than completely recovered by increased tix sales alone.

You have to heat the building to keep the pipes from freezing. It doesn't have to be toasty all the time, but you do need heat.

[purple haze]

4 hours ago, Irv said:

I don’t get 60K. We went from 80K to 71K, now 60K.  Makes no sense.  

The NFL is a TV product these days and probably moving forward.  Fan attendance is not as important as TV viewership numbers.  That’s how the NFL makes the mint they do; TV packages from the networks.  In that context, smaller capacity stadiums make sense.  Less issues with ticket sales and more viewers at home.

 

Bills would easily sellout 60-62,000 seats even with the vocal minority who complain about the weather and say they won’t attend because of it.  Even without selling out the stadium some December/January games the stadium still has 65,000 or more fans at the game.

Edited December 22, 2021 by purple haze

[Einstein]

2 minutes ago, purple haze said:

The NFL is a TV product these days and probably moving forward.  Fan attendance is not as important as TV viewership numbers.  That’s how the NFL makes the mint they do; TV packages from the networks.  In that context, smaller capacity stadiums make sense.  Less issues with ticket sales and more viewers at home.

 

Bills would easily sellout 60-62,000 seats even with the vocal minority who complain about the weather and say they won’t attend because of it.

 

Do we have an issue with ticket sales that I do not know about?

[billsfan89]

I think that the Bills are likely to want to keep costs down as much as possible. Thus a dome despite its advantages and possible disadvantages isn't likely to happen. A smallish outdoor stadium is likely to be the most viable situation for ownership, the state of NY and the league. 

[purple haze]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

There is some truth to that.........cutting the stadium down to 60K makes the ticket more exclusive.......but keep in mind that the cost of the ticket will likely triple when you figure in licenses.    I'm all for making the stadium smaller capacity.

 

But I can tell you from 3 decades of personal experience attending almost every single preseason and regular season game........that Carolina game was the game when you bring those dudes that would normally never pay for a ticket.   Tickets were literally $10 online and not selling.   I sit in the lower bowl and not only were lot's of seats empty but the two people next to me and 6 directly in front of me were all just there because they got the tickets for free or next to nothing.

 

That's not a good business model.

 

And you have to be open to the idea that the NFL just might be greedy.    The league doesn't want you looking at the ticket buying, parking and pretzel as the entire process.   Then they will want you to come in very early and gamble at their in-house casino(something nobody would have imagined 20 years ago),  partake in their expensive food and booze rather than tailgate(and on average it probably costs us $30 per person to eat and drink at our tailgates cuz we eat good) and buy merchandise to commemorate this joyous event (and not necessarily just NFL merchandise).    

 

And they should feel confident that it will work.    If they can squeeze in other events or get people to show up for some of that year round that's just gravy.

 

I remember my parents generation complaining about the cost of Ralph's $20 tickets but when they would drop $1K at the track or casino on the weekend that was just "the high cost of entertainment".    The NFL is less than half-way into fans pockets on gameday.   At least those select 60K.  They know it they just gotta' figure out how to get it.   IMO they will have a much harder time extracting that dough if a lot of the actual paying customers don't show up for the last 4 games or if they have to show up in a snowsuit/rainsuit with 6 other layers of clothing.   

The NFL is indeed greedy.  But a smaller capacity stadium will alleviate attendance issues.   I’d say PS&E proposed 60-62,000 for just that reason.
 

NFL makes the real money on those TV packages.  The in-game experience takes a backseat to that.   And I don’t see any attendance issues at a capacity of 60-62,000.   

5 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Do we have an issue with ticket sales that I do not know about?

I was responding to those who say the Bills don’t always sellout in December/January due to the weather or tickets are sold at marked down prices because of weather.   There’s no tangible issue that I know of.

[BigDingus]

Extremely disappointing.

 

I know NY is a more expensive state for just about everything, but comparing what we'd get for $1.4 billion to what others got for similar (or much less) is just sad. Even adjusted for inflation, it's a huge downer 😓

 

Saddest part of all is by location alone, it all but guarantees virtually zero potential benefit to the region & surrounding areas. It's pretty well known that these NFL stadiums yield a net-negative for the taxpayer in isolation, as the money reaped from them primarily goes to owner. 

 

However, they can be a catalyst for economic growth overall, as everything from infrastructure & public projects to small & large businesses emerge around it. Those in turn help spur more development, more growth & bring in additional revenue, not directly tied to the stadium or team itself.

 

*******

And no roof/dome... just a cost-saving measure for sure, but ultimately disappointing. Diehards will rejoice, but countless other fans (and more importantly - majority of players) will not be thrilled. I enjoy watching snow games & awful weather as much as the next guy, but only when 1) I'm watching from home & 2) it's not my team playing.

 

Tired of watching games not come down to pure skill, but to an excess of random elements. Sure, skill is still involved, but it almost always favors the less talented team by making games sloppy & more about chance. There's an exception to every rule, anecdotal evidence to provide contrary points, & examples to give that show "yes, good teams can persevere & overcome bad weather!" But after decades of watching these things, it's pretty obvious poor weather leads to more mistakes & more random elements.

 

Josh Allen will be our QB for the next decade barring injury, I'd sure love to see him have a guaranteed 8 home games slinging it with full comfort & control.

Edited December 22, 2021 by BigDingus

[BigDingus]

13 minutes ago, purple haze said:

I was responding to those who say the Bills don’t always sellout in December/January due to the weather or tickets are sold at marked down prices because of weather.   There’s no tangible issue that I know of.

 

I think actual ticket sales are fine (given how cheap they tend to be), but actual attendance seems to fluctuate quite a bit.

 

I distinctly remember a few years back watching a December game where there were many, many holes in the stands. Worst of all, it was a division game, Bills vs Dolphins, with playoff hopes on the line. Pretty sure it was 2017, Bills were looking for a wildcard spot, Dolphins looking to stay alive in the playoffs.

 

The only thing I could think of was it must be the cold weather & wind, otherwise, why isn't the stadium packed? We were looking to end a 17 year playoff drought after all! It wasn't even snowing, rain wasn't pouring down, nothing... The game could've been sold out, but the stadium looked like it was at 80% capacity or worse. Crowd didn't even seem much into it, just kind of there, bundled up, enduring the freezing weather.

 

After this, I started to notice more & more November/December games where the stadium looked quite a bit less filled, even more so with actual bad weather. Cold & wind seems to be enough to convince more people to stay home these days, but throw in freezing rain, snow or above average wind into the mix, & the couch at home  seems more appealing. It won't be the case every time; a chance to play the hated Patriots on MNF for the Division lead certainly can be persuasive to push through, but that's not consistent.

[beebe]

Bills tickets were selling as low as $8 to last week's game, and a few for less than that an hour before kickoff, on the resale market. I think downsizing the capacity to 60k makes a bunch of sense. If you can't command face value for seats when the team is playing its best in 25 years, can't imagine what the lean years will look like. 

 

Kansas City is a comparable market, with similar sized stadium, with fans who are similarly poor, and their games are routinely selling $150 plus for even the worst seats. That includes the day-after-Christmas game vs the Steelers, which is $200 after fees for even the worst seats. 

 

Bills-Falcons, meanwhile, is currently $15 to get in at Stubhub. I just don't get it. 

 

I swear, if the Bills played their home games at the airport it'd be sky high prices and sold out every weekend!

[BADOLBILZ]

49 minutes ago, purple haze said:

The NFL is indeed greedy.  But a smaller capacity stadium will alleviate attendance issues.   I’d say PS&E proposed 60-62,000 for just that reason.
 

NFL makes the real money on those TV packages.  The in-game experience takes a backseat to that.   And I don’t see any attendance issues at a capacity of 60-62,000.   

I was responding to those who say the Bills don’t always sellout in December/January due to the weather or tickets are sold at marked down prices because of weather.   There’s no tangible issue that I know of.

 

 

Everyone knows that the NFL makes most of it's money on TV packages but that's all shared revenue.    The unshared funds are like found money.......all the more valuable to ownership and important to keeping a team in town.

 

If you don't foresee attendance issues in December and now January then you likely haven't been a season ticket holder for the past 30 years.

 

There are always attendance issues once the winter weather hits because people don't want to sit out in the cold.   I don't really foresee the next generation of Bills fans being as inclined as the last to sit out in the freezing temps.     

 

The seats "mostly" fill up late in the season because they get given away or sold dirt cheap to people who wouldn't otherwise buy them.    And those folks certainly do not represent the demographic that will spend money on other things at the stadium either.  

 

When the costs triple we will surely still keep our own seasons but I know how our group will respond.......by not collectively owning 2-3x more seats than we have regular,  paying attendees for.    This is fairly common,  most ST holders I know have extra's because they are currently a fairly cheap way to get friends together or reward employees or people who do favors for you etc..  

 

 

[Buffalo716]

1 hour ago, BigDingus said:

Extremely disappointing.

 

I know NY is a more expensive state for just about everything, but comparing what we'd get for $1.4 billion to what others got for similar (or much less) is just sad. Even adjusted for inflation, it's a huge downer 😓

 

Saddest part of all is by location alone, it all but guarantees virtually zero potential benefit to the region & surrounding areas. It's pretty well known that these NFL stadiums yield a net-negative for the taxpayer in isolation, as the money reaped from them primarily goes to owner. 

 

However, they can be a catalyst for economic growth overall, as everything from infrastructure & public projects to small & large businesses emerge around it. Those in turn help spur more development, more growth & bring in additional revenue, not directly tied to the stadium or team itself.

 

*******

And no roof/dome... just a cost-saving measure for sure, but ultimately disappointing. Diehards will rejoice, but countless other fans (and more importantly - majority of players) will not be thrilled. I enjoy watching snow games & awful weather as much as the next guy, but only when 1) I'm watching from home & 2) it's not my team playing.

 

Tired of watching games not come down to pure skill, but to an excess of random elements. Sure, skill is still involved, but it almost always favors the less talented team by making games sloppy & more about chance. There's an exception to every rule, anecdotal evidence to provide contrary points, & examples to give that show "yes, good teams can persevere & overcome bad weather!" But after decades of watching these things, it's pretty obvious poor weather leads to more mistakes & more random elements.

 

Josh Allen will be our QB for the next decade barring injury, I'd sure love to see him have a guaranteed 8 home games slinging it with full comfort & control.

Every single study concluded that is not true...  

 

The last stadium report said the economic impact brought to Western New York would be about the same as a new Target... And that's the impact the stadium would have on the community

 

8- 9 days a year does not bring that much economic impact.. it's a football stadium

 

People overthink how much impact they bring 

 

When a city has a big revitalization and a new football stadium is built.. it's coincidence not the reason.. city was already on the upswing 

 

Wouldn't be against a downtown stadium.. but it's not going to be the economic revival of Buffalo..  stats don't show it

 

If Buffalo wants an economic revival people need to stay here and start businesses here, leave them here and do that for generations

 

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Buffalo716

[BADOLBILZ]

42 minutes ago, beebe said:

Bills tickets were selling as low as $8 to last week's game, and a few for less than that an hour before kickoff, on the resale market. I think downsizing the capacity to 60k makes a bunch of sense. If you can't command face value for seats when the team is playing its best in 25 years, can't imagine what the lean years will look like. 

 

Kansas City is a comparable market, with similar sized stadium, with fans who are similarly poor, and their games are routinely selling $150 plus for even the worst seats. That includes the day-after-Christmas game vs the Steelers, which is $200 after fees for even the worst seats. 

 

Bills-Falcons, meanwhile, is currently $15 to get in at Stubhub. I just don't get it. 

 

I swear, if the Bills played their home games at the airport it'd be sky high prices and sold out every weekend!

 

 

@purple haze doesn't see a problem with tickets that sell for 10 cents on the dollar late in the season with 3 home games left on the schedule in a season where the team leads the NFL in point differential and is a likely playoff team.

 

If they lose this week and are only all-but-promised a lousy wild card berth().......could be looking at sub 50K actual attendees next week and less than that the week after when the people visiting family in town have left.

 

But keep polling fans in spring and summer about whether they want a lid on the stadium or not..........but make sure they have to tell you if they attend all the late season games in their response.😉 

[K-9]

2 hours ago, thronethinker said:

I find it somewhat funny that the CARRIER Dome doesn't have AC.

 

The definition of irony.

[LabattBlue]

When the new stadium is built, I will go to a preseason game just to experience it, then go back to watching on TV…assuming a fixed roof stadium is not the choice. 

[beebe]

Carrier Dome used to not have air conditioning, it does now as of fall 2021.