It's Time to Mandate Vaccines

[The Frankish Reich]

2 hours ago, plenzmd1 said:

Only way the numbers do not work is if we say the vaccine is essentially  useless after a couple of months.

Well ... no. 

Looking at those Erie County stats: they are completely consistent with the idea of the waning effectiveness of a vaccine, particularly after about 6 months. Many of the most at risk (particularly the elderly) completed their vaccinations by March. So fast forward 8 months, and what do we see? The gap between the vaccinated and unvaccinated has narrowed.

So the vaccinated should get boosters. That's what we've learned over the last several months. It's hardly astonishing that this is what we've learned. In a perfect world the vaccine would have been perfectly effective for a lifetime. You know the old saying "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good." The vaccine is good. Really, really good.

As far as the mandate issue goes: I'm not arguing about mask mandates, etc. Most of those are arbitrary because we don't have good data on how effective they are. Outdoor mask mandates strike me as particularly silly. We would do a whole lot better upgrading ventilation systems or maybe even building office buildings where you can (weather permitting; probably not Buffalo) throw open a window.

 

Underlying all of this is a confused, ill-considered cost-benefit calculation. Vaccines are: (1) super effective, way, way, beyond any other response to COVID; (2) quite low cost, particularly to the individual. I just explained that my booster took all of 25 minutes, home-to-supermarket-back-to-home. If that's the cost to me a couple times a year, or even 3-4 times a year, it's nothing. The value to society is great. The arguments trying to chip away at this obvious hugely positive cost-benefit calculation are nonsense. They're things like the statistical illiteracy demonstrated here. So there's always the personal freedom fallback, and I will agree that this is an abstract good that we try to preserve, but not to the extent that people want to take it here. The infringement on one's liberty of getting yet another in a long list of required vaccines is minimal, particularly given that the vaccine has been proven safe. If you want to argue about this as an unwarranted infringement on personal liberty, you'll have to justify it by comparing it to other such infringements that we tolerate or even think are good.

Edited November 23, 2021 by The Frankish Reich

[plenzmd1]

43 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Well ... no. 

Looking at those Erie County stats: they are completely consistent with the idea of the waning effectiveness of a vaccine, particularly after about 6 months. Many of the most at risk (particularly the elderly) completed their vaccinations by March. So fast forward 8 months, and what do we see? The gap between the vaccinated and unvaccinated has narrowed.

So the vaccinated should get boosters. That's what we've learned over the last several months. It's hardly astonishing that this is what we've learned. In a perfect world the vaccine would have been perfectly effective for a lifetime. You know the old saying "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good." The vaccine is good. Really, really good.

As far as the mandate issue goes: I'm not arguing about mask mandates, etc. Most of those are arbitrary because we don't have good data on how effective they are. Outdoor mask mandates strike me as particularly silly. We would do a whole lot better upgrading ventilation systems or maybe even building office buildings where you can (weather permitting; probably not Buffalo) throw open a window.

 

Underlying all of this is a confused, ill-considered cost-benefit calculation. Vaccines are: (1) super effective, way, way, beyond any other response to COVID; (2) quite low cost, particularly to the individual. I just explained that my booster took all of 25 minutes, home-to-supermarket-back-to-home. If that's the cost to me a couple times a year, or even 3-4 times a year, it's nothing. The value to society is great. The arguments trying to chip away at this obvious hugely positive cost-benefit calculation are nonsense. They're things like the statistical illiteracy demonstrated here. So there's always the personal freedom fallback, and I will agree that this is an abstract good that we try to preserve, but not to the extent that people want to take it here. The infringement on one's liberty of getting yet another in a long list of required vaccines is minimal, particularly given that the vaccine has been proven safe. If you want to argue about this as an unwarranted infringement on personal liberty, you'll have to justify it by comparing it to other such infringements that we tolerate or even think are good.

first, i do not believe my take is statistical illiteracy, unless you believe the vaccines at this time offer zero added benefit when it comes to severe illness that needs hospitalizations. The CDC itself says it "much less likely to need hospitalization"  in its November update. If you take them at face value, assign a value as to what that added protection"much less likely"  would be, and there is no other conclusion than in pure number of cases vaccinated have to be higher than unvaxed. Lets say that number was 6X...unless there was 6X more vaxed people than unvaxed, one would expect the percent of people in hospital to be much more skewed to the unvaxed....and we are no where near that. If that logic is flawed, and it may be, i am open to hearing why it is.

 

My real problem in all this is the absolute religion of "vax is our way out of Covid".. and it has become a religion at this point. If if was gunna lead us out of the Covid desert, we would not be coming up on a full year of vaccines and still talking about mask mandates and shutdowns like Polancarz . We were pretty close to same numbers last year as we are this year at same point in time all across the country,  much like we saw  in the southeast  in the  summers of  20 and 2021. But  Florida has 61% full vaxed, and WNY has 63%  this year.. how could they have been close to same numbers? Maybe seasonality plays a part? If its 100% Delta, and the Vax is the exact same...why we expecting different outcomes? I got Covid  4 1/2 months after my second shot...we gunna go down to a booster every 3 months? Once a month?

 

We know this thing is going to be endemic, it is coming back around seasonally as we see...and it is not because of unvaxed people. It is because its endemic, the vax is prolly like the flu shot and somewhere around 50% effective, and people are gunna die of Covid every stinking year to the end of time. 

 

We need to move on, vulnerable people need to protect themselves as best as possible and make decisions on how much risk they are willing to accept.

[The Frankish Reich]

25 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

Lets say that number was 6X...unless there was 6X more vaxed people than unvaxed, one would expect the percent of people in hospital to be much more skewed to the unvaxed....and we are no where near that. If that logic is flawed, and it may be, i am open to hearing why it is.

Your logic is flawed. I really can't add anything to my long explanation above.

 

25 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

Maybe seasonality plays a part?

Yes. It is pretty well understood by now that seasonality plays a part.

 

25 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

I got Covid  4 1/2 months after my second shot...we gunna go down to a booster every 3 months? Once a month?

We'll have to see what's medically indicated. Probably 4.5 months was a little too long between shots based on the nature of the disease today? I'm not sure how it will play out in the future. I find it disappointing that a vaccine (or a two-shot vaccine regimen) doesn't seem to last longer; maybe improvements in the vaccine or the schedule by which it is administered will improve that. Disappointing, yes. Depressing, horrific? Absolutely not. It means we've got something that works, and even seems to work really well after a third/booster shot. Imagine if we had nothing that worked to suppress infection/hospitalization/death rates. THAT would be reason for depression. I'm optimistic.

Edited November 23, 2021 by The Frankish Reich

[plenzmd1]

7 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Your logic is flawed. I really can't add anything to my long explanation above.

 

Yes. It is pretty well understood by now that seasonality plays a part.

 

We'll have to see what's medically indicated. Probably 4.5 months was a little too long between shots based on the nature of the disease today? I'm not sure how it will play out in the future. I find it disappointing that a vaccine (or a two-shot vaccine regimen) doesn't seem to last longer; maybe improvements in the vaccine or the schedule by which it is administered will improve that. Disappointing, yes. Depressing, horrific? Absolutely not. It means we've got something that works, and even seems to work really well after a third/booster shot. Imagine if we had nothing that worked to suppress infection/hospitalization/death rates. THAT would be reason for depression. I'm optimistic.

I don't believe my logic is flawed, but i will admit i am using an arbitrary number as to added protection for not needing hospitalization. If we go on basis of no added benefit from vaccine in terms of hospitalizations, then I agree with your premise.

 

And i appreciate you going through it, and not only hurling insults like your boy who shall remain nameless.

 

And let me ask you this question. Here is Florida's chart with 61% vaxed...did the vaccines really work as advertised? Ny case rates appear the same.

 

 

 

New York appears to have same number of cases as last year at this time...again with vaccines

 

[The Frankish Reich]

3 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

I don't believe my logic is flawed, but i will admit i am using an arbitrary number as to added protection for not needing hospitalization. If we go on basis of no added benefit from vaccine in terms of hospitalizations, then I agree with your premise.

 

And i appreciate you going through it, and not only hurling insults like your boy who shall remain nameless.

 

And let me ask you this question. Here is Florida's chart with 61% vaxed...did the vaccines really work as advertised? Ny case rates appear the same.

 

 

 

New York appears to have same number of cases as last year at this time...again with vaccines

 

I'd need to see the months on this graph. So with the disclaimer that it's a guess:

My scientific explanation can be summed up with "Florida is weird." It is weird demographically (very high 65+ population), it is weird seasonally for the United States in general, and it is weird in that the composition of the population probably changes more dramatically season-to-season than any other state given the snowbird migrations (Arizona is most similar).

So I'm not sure what we can say about Florida when comparing it to other states.

[Big Blitz]

I feel so sorry and embarrassed for people that believe let alone defend any mask or vaccine mandate and anything coming from the "Maybe we should double mask" State.   

 

You're a coward and deserve to be ruled.  

 

 

The goal posts have shifted to "till a cure."  

 

 

Yes....the mandates absolutely "upend" life.  

 

Kids in masks in schools for life.  Masks whenever cases are "too high."  This is not what a free society does its what a moronic "govern me more please" society does.  It's impacted supply chains and its used to justify everything they want to do to increase power and Control.  

 

 

 

 

Ridiculous and illogical. 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Big Blitz

[JaCrispy]

42 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

I feel so sorry and embarrassed for people that believe let alone defend any mask or vaccine mandate and anything coming from the "Maybe we should double mask" State.   

 

You're a coward and deserve to be ruled.  

 

 

The goal posts have shifted to "till a cure."  

 

 

Yes....the mandates absolutely "upend" life.  

 

Kids in masks in schools for life.  Masks whenever cases are "too high."  This is not what a free society does its what a moronic "govern me more please" society does.  It's impacted supply chains and its used to justify everything they want to do to increase power and Control.  

 

 

 

 

Ridiculous and illogical. 

Some people fear freedom, because they don’t trust themselves to be responsible for their own lives...They actually feel better having someone else telling them what to do because it gives them a false sense of security...👍

[Sundancer]

13 hours ago, plenzmd1 said:

Hey @Sundancer, have a question for you. If the whole point of the vaccine is it prevents hospitalization and severe illness, and yet 43% of those hospitalized in Erie county are fully vaxed, what is wrong with the following statement. 

 

A high percentage of those vaxed who get Covid do not go to hospital, so if hospitalization rate  are roughly 55-45, the vast majority of Covid cases Has To be in vaxed people.   Just has to be. 
 

what am I missing?

 

pandemic of the yet to be infected way more than of the unvaccinated. 
 

 

 

 

Not sure why you tagged me. What is your point? Vaccines don’t work? There are about 100 links to actual science, not whatever you’re peddling, to the contrary in this thread. 

[716er]

On 11/22/2021 at 3:25 PM, RiotAct said:

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

 

@716er, any thoughts?

 

More and more places will require vaccination so you don't need to wear a mask. It's happening all over the country, and in Erie County already.

 

Forever is also a long time.

[Big Blitz]

2 hours ago, 716er said:

 

More and more places will require vaccination so you don't need to wear a mask. It's happening all over the country, and in Erie County already.

 

 

Is this a joke?  You post this after the Commie Executive puts masks back on you?

 

 

Lol keep your head in the sand.  

 

 

They're already canceling New Year's. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Big Blitz

[Boatdrinks]

1 minute ago, Big Blitz said:

 

Is this a joke?  You post this after the Commie Executive puts masks back on you?

 

 

Lol keep your head in the sand.  

Yep, lamebrains like Poloncarz will insist on both. Seriously, if even the vaccine isn’t going to stop Covid a mask surely won’t. Going back to masking at almost year 3 is about the dumbest move by the County exec ever. 

[plenzmd1]

11 hours ago, Sundancer said:

 

Not sure why you tagged me. What is your point? Vaccines don’t work? There are about 100 links to actual science, not whatever you’re peddling, to the contrary in this thread. 

as i was discussing with @The Frankish Reich, if you believe they work, especially as a therapeutic and prevent hospitalization as advertised( we know they dont stop transmission)...lets say a factor of 6x more protection against hospitalization(CDC said 29X in August)...if those in hospital in Erie county  are 55-45 unvaxxed to vaxxeded...it means the vast majority of cases have to be in vaccinated people.

 

It means this is a pandemic of the not yet infected, not a pandemic of the un Vaxed.

 

Explain these numbers...same day last year and this year in NY.  A 25% increase in cases this year  in New York State with one of the highest vax rates in the country.

 

So, we gunna rely on scientific papers or real world numbers....tell me again how Vaccines prevent transmission of Covid? And please use empirical proof

 

cases November 24 2020...5478

 

 Cases November 22 2021...7214..

 

a 25% increase in cases year over year...with 

 

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/new-york/

Edited November 24, 2021 by plenzmd1

[SoCal Deek]

12 hours ago, JaCrispy said:

Some people fear freedom, because they don’t trust themselves to be responsible for their own lives...They actually feel better having someone else telling them what to do because it gives them a false sense of security...👍

Close, but not quite. This is what you happens when you raise up a citizenry that no longer aspires to anything. If you don’t think you’re going anywhere or have been told you can’t, won’t, or didn’t achieve anything on your own then you’re easily convinced to sit in the back seat and let others drive for you.  

[716er]

9 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

 

Is this a joke?  You post this after the Commie Executive puts masks back on you?

 

 

Lol keep your head in the sand.  

 

 

They're already canceling New Year's. 

 

The "Commie Executive" isn't requiring masks in places that require vax, so yes. That's the reason it was posted.

 

 

[SCBills]

Trash. 
 

The only redeeming part of this tweet is the ratio that this rep is receiving.  
 

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by SCBills

[Sundancer]

2 hours ago, plenzmd1 said:

as i was discussing with @The Frankish Reich, if you believe they work, especially as a therapeutic and prevent hospitalization as advertised( we know they dont stop transmission)

 

Vaccines appear to slow transmission (especially in the short term post injection) as compared to no-vax infection but I know that's not your point. 

 

2 hours ago, plenzmd1 said:

...lets say a factor of 6x more protection against hospitalization(CDC said 29X in August)...if those in hospital in Erie county  are 55-45 unvaxxed to vaxxeded...it means the vast majority of cases have to be in vaccinated people.

 

Oy vey. 

 

First, you're not talking science, you're talking a single statistic. If most of the people in EC in the hospital are vaccinated, it could be for any number of reasons, the most likely being...wait for it... that the most vulnerable people are hopefully mostly vaccinated! So of course they would be overrepresented in the hospital. 

 

2 hours ago, plenzmd1 said:

 

It means this is a pandemic of the not yet infected, not a pandemic of the un Vaxed.

 

Negative. 

 

2 hours ago, plenzmd1 said:

 

Explain these numbers...same day last year and this year in NY.  A 25% increase in cases this year  in New York State with one of the highest vax rates in the country.

 

So, we gunna rely on scientific papers or real world numbers....tell me again how Vaccines prevent transmission of Covid? And please use empirical proof

 

cases November 24 2020...5478

 

 Cases November 22 2021...7214..

 

a 25% increase in cases year over year...with 

 

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/new-york/

 

The empirical proof is in many studies already cited. 

 

Did your Worldometers-based study take into account tests done, ages, seasonality, and perhaps...I don't know, the Delta variant transmissibility being twice previous variants? 

 

This isn't science talk. This is just shooting the ***** because you already have an opinion in hand. 

13 hours ago, 716er said:

 

More and more places will require vaccination so you don't need to wear a mask. It's happening all over the country, and in Erie County already.

 

Forever is also a long time.

 

It's actually kind of funny because some liberal places are starting to realize that going the opposite direction is the right way to go. Erie County almost elected a commie as mayor though, so I guess this should not surprise. 

[All_Pro_Bills]

2 minutes ago, Sundancer said:

First, you're not talking science, you're talking a single statistic. If most of the people in EC in the hospital are vaccinated, it could be for any number of reasons, the most likely being...wait for it... that the most vulnerable people are hopefully mostly vaccinated! So of course they would be overrepresented in the hospital.

Would you agree that, vaccinated or not, very rarely is anyone hospitalized (or dies) without some other condition or co-morbidity?  Such as obesity, hypertension, diabetes, heart disease, high cholesterol, autoimmune deficiencies?  And these hospitalizations should be diagnosed and reported as primary diagnosis is  "x diagnosis w/COVID" rather than primary diagnosis is "COVID"?       

[plenzmd1]

26 minutes ago, Sundancer said:

 

Vaccines appear to slow transmission (especially in the short term post injection) as compared to no-vax infection but I know that's not your point. 

 

 

Oy vey. 

 

First, you're not talking science, you're talking a single statistic. If most of the people in EC in the hospital are vaccinated, it could be for any number of reasons, the most likely being...wait for it... that the most vulnerable people are hopefully mostly vaccinated! So of course they would be overrepresented in the hospital. 

 

 

Negative. 

 

 

The empirical proof is in many studies already cited. 

 

Did your Worldometers-based study take into account tests done, ages, seasonality, and perhaps...I don't know, the Delta variant transmissibility being twice previous variants? 

 

This isn't science talk. This is just shooting the ***** because you already have an opinion in hand. 

 

It's actually kind of funny because some liberal places are starting to realize that going the opposite direction is the right way to go. Erie County almost elected a commie as mayor though, so I guess this should not surprise. 

Uhmmm, Worldometers is NOT one of your beloved studies, it is REAL WORKD NUMBERS !!! 

 

So let me get this straight, in your world a study with 40k participants is more statically relevant than real world numbers with 39 million participants? Is that what you are arguing?
 

And seasonality? NYS cases are 25% higher than what they were last year on same date? Seasonality?

 

and if the Delta is twice as contagious even with the vax, and we giving same exact vax as before Delta.. why should we expect a different outcome. 
 

oh I know, cause the Fauci’s of the world say it’s just a booster needed. Same people who said no mask needed, same people who said vaxed folks  do not get or spread the virus, same people who said vax was 29 times more likely to keep you out of hospital. Same people who said masks will give 80% better chance not getting Covid just a few weeks ago… even better protection than the vax!  

Like I said, we all wanted to believe 12 months ago vax was all we needed to zero Covid. That’s never happening, this is now an endemic of the not previously infected, not the unvaxed. 
 

again, show me effectiveness sing empirical, real world numbers and not studies. I just have. 
 

 

[GaryPinC]

18 hours ago, plenzmd1 said:

I don't believe my logic is flawed, but i will admit i am using an arbitrary number as to added protection for not needing hospitalization. If we go on basis of no added benefit from vaccine in terms of hospitalizations, then I agree with your premise.

 

And i appreciate you going through it, and not only hurling insults like your boy who shall remain nameless.

 

And let me ask you this question. Here is Florida's chart with 61% vaxed...did the vaccines really work as advertised? Ny case rates appear the same.

 

 

 

New York appears to have same number of cases as last year at this time...again with vaccines

 

 

If you want to claim any intellectual honesty, why don't you do apples to apples and compare the death rates of New York to Florida and to NY surge in 2020?  Because that makes a strong pro-vaccination case while at the same time contrasting DeSantis's hands-off approach with New York's strict lockdown measures.  Biased much?

[Sundancer]

1 hour ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Would you agree that, vaccinated or not, very rarely is anyone hospitalized (or dies) without some other condition or co-morbidity?  Such as obesity, hypertension, diabetes, heart disease, high cholesterol, autoimmune deficiencies?  And these hospitalizations should be diagnosed and reported as primary diagnosis is  "x diagnosis w/COVID" rather than primary diagnosis is "COVID"?       

Not sure what you quantify as "very rarely" exactly but yes. I think there's some region now reporting in this way. I just saw this come up...but I don't remember where. 

 

This doesn't mean Covid is less of a killer. Again, deaths are WAY up for a reason. 

[GaryPinC]

 

     

 

 

Keep in mind the scales are different, NY is 3 fold higher making FLA's data appear 3 times relatively larger.  But note NY's impressive lack of deaths/hospitalizations with their lockdown summer.  Also note FLA's 2020 winter surge was pretty much equal to NY when it should have been smaller because it was technically "off season".

 

 

 

[Sundancer]

1 hour ago, plenzmd1 said:

Uhmmm, Worldometers is NOT one of your beloved studies, it is REAL WORKD NUMBERS !!! 

 

It's two numbers plucked from among thousands. Go ahead and do California: I dare you. You didn't because it doesn't fit your preconceived notion. 

 

1 hour ago, plenzmd1 said:

So let me get this straight, in your world a study with 40k participants is more statically relevant than real world numbers with 39 million participants? Is that what you are arguing?

 

Show me the "study." You don't get it. 

 

1 hour ago, plenzmd1 said:

 

 

And seasonality? NYS cases are 25% higher than what they were last year on same date? Seasonality?

 

and if the Delta is twice as contagious even with the vax, and we giving same exact vax as before Delta.. why should we expect a different outcome. 
 

oh I know, cause the Fauci’s of the world say it’s just a booster needed. Same people who said no mask needed, same people who said vaxed folks  do not get or spread the virus, same people who said vax was 29 times more likely to keep you out of hospital. Same people who said masks will give 80% better chance not getting Covid just a few weeks ago… even better protection than the vax!  

 

Ah there it is: good show of objectivity. 

 

1 hour ago, plenzmd1 said:

Like I said, we all wanted to believe 12 months ago vax was all we needed to zero Covid. That’s never happening, this is now an endemic of the not previously infected, not the unvaxed. 
 

again, show me effectiveness sing empirical, real world numbers and not studies. I just have. 

 

 

Doing your stupid unscientific way, look at California. Then do Florida. Then do North Carolina. Then New Jersey. Then do USA. Then factor in for climate, Delta, age (critical, see Gary's post), boosters. Uh oh it's starting to sound like actual work and science! You better go back to soundbyte: Fauci something something, masks anger anger. 

[plenzmd1]

28 minutes ago, GaryPinC said:

 

If you want to claim any intellectual honesty, why don't you do apples to apples and compare the death rates of New York to Florida and to NY surge in 2020?  Because that makes a strong pro-vaccination case while at the same time contrasting DeSantis's hands-off approach with New York's strict lockdown measures.  Biased much?

sure thing

 

Total deaths per/million to date

 

NY..2970

Fla ..2847

 

Really no statistical difference. One could argue NY was hit last spring before so much was known,  and at least in the NYC area, mush denser living conditions. However, one could also argue Florida has a greater percentage of risk folks due to age....so not sure how to separate that out.

 

Florida had what looks like  its peak in August 21...412 deaths at its highest....not quite sure how to put a date range in there. Yesterday they had 7.

 

Florida at its peak last August with same policies but no vax had at its peak 214 deaths.

 

Hmm, and this year they had close to 62% fully vaxed.

 

NY last year on this date last year had 39 deaths...this year has 50...again with close to 70% fully vaxed. 

 

And , lets not forget we are always told hospitalizations lag cases, deaths lag hospitalizations. 

 

And cases are up 25% year over  year in NYS same date as last year.

 

all numbers courtesy of Worldmeters, easy as pie to go there and look.

 

To me, if anything this points to deaths and cases  being higher WITH vaccines. 

 

 

 Again, I am open to hearing why that is not the case..taking same population and numbers on same dates...

 

 

 

26 minutes ago, Sundancer said:

Not sure what you quantify as "very rarely" exactly but yes. I think there's some region now reporting in this way. I just saw this come up...but I don't remember where. 

 

This doesn't mean Covid is less of a killer. Again, deaths are WAY up for a reason. 

so deaths are WAY up with 70% vax, but god bless they are our only way out? Do you listen to yourself? 

[Sundancer]

5 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

 

so deaths are WAY up with 70% vax, but god bless they are our only way out? Do you listen to yourself? 

 

In response to his seeming point that dying WITH Covid is inflating Covid death statistics, that would not explain that deaths are WAY up overall. Not this month, but since March 2020. 

 

In fact what we are seeing is that as the vaccines arrived, total deaths almost dipped to pre-pandemic levels, then something (Delta? Seasonality? Vax waning? Unvaxxed + something else? Other?) pushed us back up again but not as bad as last fall. So, your point is kind of a dim-witted and lazy one, yet again.  

 

 

Source: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

[GaryPinC]

And here's the total cases numbers  (same graphical scales) :

 

Note NY's impressive baselines compared to Florida's.  Not sure this justifies the excessive lockdowns in NY though

[plenzmd1]

5 minutes ago, GaryPinC said:

And here's the total cases numbers  (same graphical scales) :

 

Note NY's impressive baselines compared to Florida's.  Not sure this justifies the excessive lockdowns in NY though

Florida no dount had that massive spike this year...same rules as previous years, but had 60% vaxed this year

 

11 minutes ago, Sundancer said:

 

In response to his seeming point that dying WITH Covid is inflating Covid death statistics, that would not explain that deaths are WAY up overall. Not this month, but since March 2020. 

 

In fact what we are seeing is that as the vaccines arrived, total deaths almost dipped to pre-pandemic levels, then something (Delta? Seasonality? Vax waning? Unvaxxed + something else? Other?) pushed us back up again but not as bad as last fall. So, your point is kind of a dim-witted and lazy one, yet again.  

 

 

Source: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

I missed that point of overall deaths up,you are correct

[GaryPinC]

And of course, one of the premier countries whose citizens mostly ignored covid via a very lagging vaccination rate and took little or no precautions until very recently, Russia:

 

 

 

Maybe they'll actually get some kind of control over it soon and at least chart an actual baseline.

[Big Blitz]

3 hours ago, 716er said:

 

The "Commie Executive" isn't requiring masks in places that require vax, so yes. That's the reason it was posted.

 

 

 

 

What a dupe you are.  Defending this lunacy.  

 

 

 

Mask mandate returns to Erie County, and tougher restrictions could be next

 

 

Commie Executive Mark Poloncarz announced Monday that all patrons and public-facing workers must wear face masks at indoor public places, effective at 6 a.m. Tuesday.

 

He said the order will be re-evaluated on Dec. 13, but Poloncarz warned that if the situation continues to worsen, he could impose tougher rules even before then.

 

Those would include requiring customers of businesses to prove they have been vaccinated before entering a restaurant, bar or entertainment venue.

 

Steps beyond that would be a return to capacity restrictions, followed by the last resort – lockdowns.

 

Poloncarz said the state of emergency never was lifted in the county, so he still has the authority to order these steps.

As of Saturday, 91% of all hospital beds in Erie County and 87% of intensive care beds were occupied.

 

"Case rates are important, but they're not the defining factor. The issues associated with hospitals are the defining factor," Poloncarz said during a virtual news conference.

 

But he set no firm numerical goals for any statistic that would allow the mask rule to be lifted. Nor did he set a number that would trigger harsher steps.

 

"It's going to be dependent on a bunch of variables," he said. "I don't want to say there's one specific thing that's a threshold that says, 'Aha, we go to Phase 2.' Now if, in the next five days, we see tremendous increases in hospitalizations as well as new cases, we theoretically could go to Phase 2 sooner than Dec. 13. But we want to give it enough time to analyze what's being done, assuming the public follows and wears a mask."

 

The public does not have to wear masks inside venues that have strict vaccine requirements for entrance, such as Highmark Stadium and KeyBank Center, according to the county Health Department.

 

Joe Jerge, owner of Mulberry's Italian Ristorante, said in an interview that he and the owners of three other well-known restaurants met with Poloncarz Sunday at Ilio DiPaolo's Restaurant in Blasdell, and talked Poloncarz out of tougher restrictions – for now.

 

"At this particular time if they shut us down again, it would probably spell the end for a lot of places," Jerge said.

 

Of those hospitalized, Poloncarz said 57% were unvaccinated, which means 43% were in the hospital despite having been vaccinated. 

 

https://buffalonews.com/news/local/mask-mandate-returns-to-erie-county-and-tougher-restrictions-could-be-next/article_0eba6bbe-4bb5-11ec-a005-4b32f29ac94b.html

 

 

This is my favorite part:

 

 

 

"He noted that the Buffalo Bills have the aid of police to enforce the vaccination mandate at Highmark Stadium, but restaurants wouldn't have that."

 

 

 

Communists.  

 

 

 

Tremendous increases!

 

There are high numbers!  Really scary!!

 

 

 

Nice metrics.  What were those again?  One man's whim?

Edited November 24, 2021 by Big Blitz

[Sundancer]

8 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

Florida no dount had that massive spike this year...same rules as previous years, but had 60% vaxed this year

 

 

Come on buddy. You didn't complete your work assignment. Do the states I mentioned for late November 2020 vs 2021. Then to the US. 

 

Or do those not fit your preconceived narrative? 

[GaryPinC]

27 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

sure thing

 

Total deaths per/million to date

 

NY..2970

Fla ..2847

 

Really no statistical difference. One could argue NY was hit last spring before so much was known,  and at least in the NYC area, mush denser living conditions. However, one could also argue Florida has a greater percentage of risk folks due to age....so not sure how to separate that out.

 

Florida had what looks like  its peak in August 21...412 deaths at its highest....not quite sure how to put a date range in there. Yesterday they had 7.

 

Florida at its peak last August with same policies but no vax had at its peak 214 deaths.

 

Hmm, and this year they had close to 62% fully vaxed.

 

NY last year on this date last year had 39 deaths...this year has 50...again with close to 70% fully vaxed. 

 

And , lets not forget we are always told hospitalizations lag cases, deaths lag hospitalizations. 

 

And cases are up 25% year over  year in NYS same date as last year.

 

all numbers courtesy of Worldmeters, easy as pie to go there and look.

 

To me, if anything this points to deaths and cases  being higher WITH vaccines. 

 

 

 Again, I am open to hearing why that is not the case..taking same population and numbers on same dates...

 

 

 

so deaths are WAY up with 70% vax, but god bless they are our only way out? Do you listen to yourself? 

 

Congratulations, how much of NY's numbers are due to that Cuomo debacle at the beginning?  Wonder how it looks if you take away both Florida and New York's initial surge?   But, in all fairness, data is incomplete until the winter surge is over

 

WRT your point about numbers, it's called the delta variant and it's also called lack of boosters, which the CDC has pretty much dropped the ball on IMO.  They should have rang the 6 month bell at the end of summer for everyone.

[Big Blitz]

Man.

 

Hillary Clinton sure did think this nonsense "upended your life."

 

 

 

 

YEAR THREE COVID!! WOOOO HOOOO!!!

[Sundancer]

1 minute ago, GaryPinC said:

 

Congratulations, how much of NY's numbers are due to that Cuomo debacle at the beginning?  Wonder how it looks if you take away both Florida and New York's initial surge?   But, in all fairness, data is incomplete until the winter surge is over

 

WRT your point about numbers, it's called the delta variant and it's also called lack of boosters, which the CDC has pretty much dropped the ball on IMO.  They should have rang the 6 month bell at the end of summer for everyone.

 

I don't blame anyone for March and April 2020. We had no idea what was happening at that point. Or to put it better, we did not pay attention to Korea and Italy, so we were willfully ignorant of what was happening. And piling on some blame, our federal biodefenses, which presumably were getting tens of millions in funding, were woefully unprepared.  

[Big Blitz]

Why is everything even open

 

 

People are dying and will continue to worthless masks and vaccines or not. 

 

Should be full lockdown if you truly care.  Would also slow down flu season. 

 

Shut down KeyBank Center for 6 months. 

 

Do it.   F... your freedoms and businesses.  

Edited November 24, 2021 by Big Blitz

[Sundancer]

 

By the way, Covid hospitalizations are about half what they were last year at this time currently on a much less steep incline, but, VACCINES DON'T WORK. 

 

 

VACCINES DON'T WORK is the work of plenzmd1, based on the his own studies published on a Bills Political board. 

[All_Pro_Bills]

16 minutes ago, Sundancer said:

Not sure what you quantify as "very rarely" exactly but yes. I think there's some region now reporting in this way. I just saw this come up...but I don't remember where. 

 

This doesn't mean Covid is less of a killer. Again, deaths are WAY up for a reason. 

 These are the states with elevated 7 day rolling average case rates per 100K & their 7 day rolling average deaths

 

Michigan - 109.57 cases per 100K, 92.0 deaths 7 day average 

Minnesota - 92.32, 30.47

Alaska - 81.04, 6

Montana - 70.03, 10, 5.82

North Dakota - 71.24, 6.02

South Dakota - 70.03, 4.36

Colorado - 77.56, 42.77

New Mexico - 70.99, 10.21

Wisconsin - 71.07, 27.92

 

[Sundancer]

8 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

 These are the states with elevated 7 day rolling average case rates per 100K & their 7 day rolling average deaths

 

Michigan - 109.57 cases per 100K, 92.0 deaths 7 day average 

Minnesota - 92.32, 30.47

Alaska - 81.04, 6

Montana - 70.03, 10, 5.82

North Dakota - 71.24, 6.02

South Dakota - 70.03, 4.36

Colorado - 77.56, 42.77

New Mexico - 70.99, 10.21

Wisconsin - 71.07, 27.92

 

 

I'm sure the Arbery verdict is about to take the wind out of the sails of this discussion for the day. Genuinely asking: What are you trying to show me here? 

[Sundancer]

Wierd stat but encouraging. Certainly how I feel. I am annoyed by, but respectful of, mask requests at shop doors but otherwise doing nothing differently. 

 

 

 

[ALF]

With the number of those vaccinated getting covid and hospitalized , critical to get a booster . 

[Big Blitz]

Anti Mandate Freedom loving Americans: 

 

"The government is out of control with mandates and protocols.  We did our jobs it's been 2 f...ing years and 75% of us are vaxxed why are we still in masks and why are they mandating anything at this point?  Isolating people still....still sending people home despite being vaccinated.  This is unsustainable and illogical and won't end."

 

 

 

Sundancer:

 

"Here is some data on the effectiveness of vaccines."

[All_Pro_Bills]

44 minutes ago, Sundancer said:

 

I'm sure the Arbery verdict is about to take the wind out of the sails of this discussion for the day. Genuinely asking: What are you trying to show me here? 

You mentioned numbers were up but no sure wheres so I highlighted the elevated States..