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Are you scared of the CAP?


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As I read through the free agent threads here....a whole lot of talk about steep prices for guys (always that way this time of year) but what I notice is that the Bills fan base seems overly cap conscience.  

 

I am not very familiar with Bills spending history or how they work with the Cap....and I certainly don't know the Pegulas ideas on this or Beanes.....

 

My questions to you are:

 

1.  Is everything ALWAYS about the future?  Is there ever a thought about "now"?

2.  Do you see a team that has had the cap kill them and you don't want to do the same?  ...was that team the Bills at some point?

3.  Do you think the cap can be manipulated or do you believe that the piper that needs paid, is always right around the corner?

 

There are no wrong answers to these questions....everyone kind of has different ideas on how this should work or how things ought to go with spending and contracts.....just wondering what the community here has to say about it since you all, IN GENERAL....seem kind of skittish about spending money (having the Bills sign folks..I know it's not your money)  

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As I read through the free agent threads here....a whole lot of talk about steep prices for guys (always that way this time of year) but what I notice is that the Bills fan base seems overly cap consc

Yea Bills fans have been conditioned by all the years of being bad to care about cap space and comp picks and not trading up. It is because cap space and more picks represent hope. They are the way to

Of all the iterations of Zero we’ve seen here, “let me explain how the cap works” Zero might be the worst Zero yet.   

2 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

What happened to Trent Williams?

 

Why did you get outbid?

It sure as hell wasn't because KC gives a crap about the cap...reports are their offer was right up with what the 49ers gave him.

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7 minutes ago, Zerovoltz said:

It sure as hell wasn't because KC gives a crap about the cap...reports are their offer was right up with what the 49ers gave him.

I think you are a little spoiled by your QB on a rookie deal. Kansas City WILL start feeling it sooner or later once that contract kicks in.

 

But yeah, there are things to do to manipulate and mange the cap. Everybody here realizes that as well.

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I think the Bills shouldn’t be afraid to risk more dead cap down the line in exchange for some immidate space. But I wouldn’t go all out in doing that as it sacrifices roster flexibility which can sustain winning longer term. Make some space now and go for it as the future is far from guaranteed.

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14 minutes ago, Zerovoltz said:

As I read through the free agent threads here....a whole lot of talk about steep prices for guys (always that way this time of year) but what I notice is that the Bills fan base seems overly cap conscience.  

 

I am not very familiar with Bills spending history or how they work with the Cap....and I certainly don't know the Pegulas ideas on this or Beanes.....

 

My questions to you are:

 

1.  Is everything ALWAYS about the future?  Is there ever a thought about "now"?

2.  Do you see a team that has had the cap kill them and you don't want to do the same?  ...was that team the Bills at some point?

3.  Do you think the cap can be manipulated or do you believe that the piper that needs paid, is always right around the corner?

 

There are no wrong answers to these questions....everyone kind of has different ideas on how this should work or how things ought to go with spending and contracts.....just wondering what the community here has to say about it since you all, IN GENERAL....seem kind of skittish about spending money (having the Bills sign folks..I know it's not your money)  

No we are not "scared of the cap" we are currently in a position where we could win the Super Bowl next year and will continue to be in that window if we are smart about the cap unlike the Saints with their current situation and even Eagles who won it and then immediately fizzled. We don't need to go all out to win the super bowl, with just some moves that we have already made we are now in a great position to win the Super Bowl next year and t what McBeane has always preached is winning now and in the future. The way we are acting now in FA is exactly that, very smart about the cap and future while also improving. Next year Allen will be better as he is still learning, his connection with Diggs will be better as they get more reps, the run game will be better with Moss gaining experience and the starting OL actually getting to play together, not just 3 snaps together like all of last year. Additionally Milano and Edmunds played a lot of the season hurt and should be better on D and Star returning will help too. So no we aren't afraid, we're putting ourselves in the best possible position to win now and in the future. As a matter of fact your Chiefs will likely be in a bad cap situation pretty soon.

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17 minutes ago, Zerovoltz said:

It sure as hell wasn't because KC gives a crap about the cap...reports are their offer was right up with what the 49ers gave him.

Why not offer him a billion?  He pry wouldn't have turned it down.  

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2 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

Why not offer him a billion?  He pry wouldn't have turned it down.  

I suppose they could have.....at some point you say, this is what we think this is worth and you are done.....

 

I'm not trying to brag on KC here or say that how they are doing business is the correct or only path.. ....

 

I've seen a lot of "but we will have to pay Allen, Edmunds, Oliver etc etc etc etc" in alot of threads.  Much of the KC fanbase was teh same before we signed Mahomes to his extension...eveyrone always worried there wouldn't be money for Mahomes deal....

 

I'm just wondering if Bills fans have been burned by bad cap management in the past...or worried about paying Allen?  just general pessimism after long drought?  

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49 minutes ago, Zerovoltz said:

As I read through the free agent threads here....a whole lot of talk about steep prices for guys (always that way this time of year) but what I notice is that the Bills fan base seems overly cap conscience.  

 

I am not very familiar with Bills spending history or how they work with the Cap....and I certainly don't know the Pegulas ideas on this or Beanes.....

 

My questions to you are:

 

1.  Is everything ALWAYS about the future?  Is there ever a thought about "now"?

2.  Do you see a team that has had the cap kill them and you don't want to do the same?  ...was that team the Bills at some point?

3.  Do you think the cap can be manipulated or do you believe that the piper that needs paid, is always right around the corner?

 

There are no wrong answers to these questions....everyone kind of has different ideas on how this should work or how things ought to go with spending and contracts.....just wondering what the community here has to say about it since you all, IN GENERAL....seem kind of skittish about spending money (having the Bills sign folks..I know it's not your money)  

 

Do you actually understand what a "salary cap" is?

 

Yes there are ways to manipulate it. No one is "scared" of it because it's not some imaginary monster. This year it's $182.5 million. Nothing to be scared of because that's just the number all 32 teams are working around.

 

Sheesh... win one Super Bowl and get crushed in another and suddenly you think you're the Football guru we Bills fans are lucky to have hanging around.

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1 minute ago, Zerovoltz said:

I suppose they could have.....at some point you say, this is what we think this is worth and you are done.....

 

I'm not trying to brag on KC here or say that how they are doing business is the correct or only path.. ....

 

I've seen a lot of "but we will have to pay Allen, Edmunds, Oliver etc etc etc etc" in alot of threads.  Much of the KC fanbase was teh same before we signed Mahomes to his extension...eveyrone always worried there wouldn't be money for Mahomes deal....

 

I'm just wondering if Bills fans have been burned by bad cap management in the past...or worried about paying Allen?  just general pessimism after long drought?  

At the end of the day it's still a hard cap even though there's many ways to manipulate it as the Saints are proving.  The trick seems to me is to obviously find your franchise quarterback and instill a solid culture and environment where players want to be there.  Then you can sign your own free agents at discounts, ask veterans to pay cuts/contract restructures, attract free agents that may value winning if it means taking a tad less money, and in your case (and hopefully ours) sign a QB that still gets his but is willing to take a little less to keep as much of the team together in order to continue to compete for a Super Bowl every year.  The Seahawks, Packers, and Steelers haven't made a Super Bowl since their QB's got paid handsomely despite remaining elite at that position.  Even in those circumstances you still have to draft well and develop.  The Patriots stopped doing that a couple years before Brady left them because he didn't have any weapons even though they were paying Brady illegally under the table in order for him to take a lower salary.

 

You also have to maximize the parts of the organization that isn't restricted by cap space.  Everything from paying premium coaches, GM's, coordinators, and assistant coaches decent salaries to building and maintaining state of the art facilities.

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1 hour ago, Zerovoltz said:

As I read through the free agent threads here....a whole lot of talk about steep prices for guys (always that way this time of year) but what I notice is that the Bills fan base seems overly cap conscience.  

 

I am not very familiar with Bills spending history or how they work with the Cap....and I certainly don't know the Pegulas ideas on this or Beanes.....

 

My questions to you are:

 

1.  Is everything ALWAYS about the future?  Is there ever a thought about "now"?

2.  Do you see a team that has had the cap kill them and you don't want to do the same?  ...was that team the Bills at some point?

3.  Do you think the cap can be manipulated or do you believe that the piper that needs paid, is always right around the corner?

 

There are no wrong answers to these questions....everyone kind of has different ideas on how this should work or how things ought to go with spending and contracts.....just wondering what the community here has to say about it since you all, IN GENERAL....seem kind of skittish about spending money (having the Bills sign folks..I know it's not your money)  

What Cap?  There isn’t one. It can always be manipulated to fit the players you want 

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13 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

What Cap?  There isn’t one. It can always be manipulated to fit the players you want 

 

 

No, it can't, that's just nonsense.

 

Did the Bills want to get rid of Bruce Smith and Thurman Thomas? No. They had to. You see this constantly.

 

Yes, it can be manipulated. You can move things around. You can wiggle. Yes, you'll always be able to field 52 guys. But no, you can't always get who you want. Yes, the less money you have the less choices you'll be able to make the way you would like.

 

The bottom line is that the wiggling is limited. The more you do this year, the worse off you will be next year. And that next year you can also do some wiggling, but not as much.

 

People say, "Oh, New Orleans was always in cap trouble, and they always fielded a team." Yeah, you can field a team. But many of those years they would have liked to shore themselves up at various positions and they couldn't. Yeah, they'd get a guy or two. But that would mean they couldn't get the other guys they wanted.

 

Part of the reason Brees only had one championship was because of their cap problems every year. One year they wanted to bring in a DE, Clowney, but couldn't. They have done pretty well with the draft, but they've often had to cut guys they'd much rather have kept and have wanted guys they haven't been able to afford.

 

That's what the cap does, it limits your choices. It's like a credit card. You can keep borrowing things. Keep driving your balance up. Sooner or later, though, you're trying to pay for car repairs and card doesn't work. You've got to go to the bank and move things around, and now your available money is even lower, and guess what, it's lower next month too.

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Yea Bills fans have been conditioned by all the years of being bad to care about cap space and comp picks and not trading up. It is because cap space and more picks represent hope. They are the way to a quick turnaround. 

 

But space and picks are just a means of getting good players. The Bills now have good players. That is better than having cap space every time. 

 

We did also operate a cash to cap model under Ralph's ownership so the cap WAS real to the Bills. The Pegulas don't mind spending which has allowed this regime to drag us into the 21st century of cap management where you pay now and account for the money later.

 

And ignore the haters that you will get in this thread. You are not wrong with your observation OP.

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2 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

No, it can't, that's just nonsense.

 

Did the Bills want to get rid of Bruce Smith and Thurman Thomas? No. They had to. You see this constantly.

 

Yes, it can be manipulated. You can move things around. You can wiggle. Yes, you'll always be able to field 52 guys. But no, you can't always get who you want. Yes, the less money you have the less choices you'll be able to make the way you would like.

 

The bottom line is that the wiggling is limited. The more you do this year, the worse off you will be next year. And that next year you can also do some wiggling, but not as much.

 

People say, "Oh, New Orleans was always in cap trouble, and they always fielded a team." Yeah, you can field a team. But many of those years they would have liked to shore themselves up at various positions and they couldn't. Yeah, they'd get a guy or two. But that would mean they couldn't get the other guys they wanted.

 

Part of the reason Brees only had one championship was because of their cap problems every year. One year they wanted to bring in a DE, but couldn't.

Yes you can. Saints 54M OVER CAP. Sign a TE to a QB 140M contract. 
 

sorry Cap is a mirage.  Key is structuring contracts right. IE Brown. 

Edited by MAJBobby
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It was interesting Kirwan mentioned the other day on NFLR responding to a question on the cap by a caller who wanted to exempt QB’s from the cap.  He said, first we’re not the NBA.  Second, the primary reason the NFL owners like a hard cap is it makes the franchises far more profitable in a sale as they can account for every penny.

 

Zero, if you’re intention is to call Bills fans stupid as they don’t understand the cap, I disagree.  This is a smart fan base on this board who’s been through times where we had bad cap Mgmt starting with Butler since FA started.  He followed Polian.  Now a lot of people fondly remember Butler (god rest his soul who died after he went to SD from cancer) who was able to bring us lots of expensive defensive talent for Wade and we had the best defense in football in the late 90’s.  The problem was he also put us in cap hell as a result.  We then started our drought with that tool Donahoe.  Then there was the 17 year drought having to overpay for talent, ie. Mario Williams.  We kept just trying to plug holes vs. a methodical approach and vision like McBeane.

 

In four years this team has made it to the playoffs three times and went to the championship game.  That looks to me to be a team who wants to win now and later.  They gave up on the last in 19 to the Jets as it didn’t matter playing all backups or they would’ve been 11-5.  They follow up with 13-3.  Sounds like a good vision to me.

 

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