So many good young qbs in the NFL right now

[mannc]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I disagree. Brady was bad last year. Newton looks good so far this. Not great. But good. Good is an upgrade on 2019 Brady.

Umm, I’d say Cam’s performance Sunday against Seattle was great.  I did not see him against Miami.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, mannc said:

Umm, I’d say Cam’s performance Sunday against Seattle was great.  I did not see him against Miami.

 

Fair. He was pretty great on Sunday. Good week 1. 

[billsfan89]

In the AFC you have Mahomes who is the big elephant in the room, he is where Aaron Rodgers was at in 2011 only even younger and a bit better. Then you have Deshaun Watson and Lamar Jackson as the new top young guys with Josh knocking on the door of being in that conversation. Of course in the third tier you have the guys with potential like Burrow, Darnold, Mayfield, Locke, Hurbert, Tua, and Minshew.

 

In the NFC you are less top heavy with QB's under 30 but you have a lot of good young QB's some of whom might take that step up to rival the Wilson's and Rodgers up top. Kyler Murray, Goff, Wentz, Jimmy G, and Dak are all solid starting caliber to good QB's. None are at that elite level yet but any of them could step up. The NFC certainly skews older at QB. Brees and Brady aside you have Rodgers who is in his late 30's, Wilson who is in his prime at 31 going on 32 later in the season, and Stafford and Matt Ryan who are in their mid-30's. You do have some other third tier young QB's like Daniel Jones, Haskins and Trubisky but I just don't see them panning out.

 

Overall this is the strongest time for QB play in a long time in the NFL if not ever. I would say half or just under half of all NFL teams have good QB's capable of putting up big points and improving the quality of play of the team around them. 

[BillsToast]

As far as the transformation of stats from college to the NFL I think its a few factors that make a massive difference.

 

1. They changed the schemes to match what they know

2. They changed the rules to make those schemes effective

3. WRs have stickum on their hands with these modern gloves

4. QBs feel less physical pressure as they can't get hurt like they used and can relax more

 

I don't think for a second Kyler Murray could exist on the 80's Broncos like Elway. Simplified spread offenses, more read and react, and changing the rules turned Farve from a career 80's QB rating to the 100's for the Jets. He wasn't that much better, the game changed. 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

I'm not talking about this week or next week.  I'm talking about what the next ten years will look like.  Some of these young QBs are the Mannings and Bradys of the future, and some of them are the Flaccos.  

 

Carson Wentz was everyone's can't miss Wunderkind two years ago.   Not so much today.  

 

I think Jackson will come back to the pack.  I could be wrong, for sure.  If I need a QB for next week's game, he's one of a half dozen I want.  But if I need one for the next ten years, I don't think he's my guy.   Mahomes?  Yes.  Watson?  Yes.  I wouldn't trade Allen even up for Jackson.  Allen is the better long-term prospect.  

 

 

Jackson could not be any less similar to guys like Wentz, Flacco, Manning or Brady.  Neither are Mahomes or Allen.  And Jackson is getting better, like Allen.  

 

10 years from now, most QBs will look like them, nothing like Brady and Manning.

[Matt_In_NH]

On 9/24/2020 at 9:16 AM, buffaloboyinATL said:

Yeah, the changing of the guard is here.  Brady, Brees, Roethlisberger, Rivers etc are at the end of their careers, Rodgers, Wilson, Newton, Ryan, Stafford and a couple of others are the new old guard and then there is a large group of very talented QB's who have been in the league for less than 5 years.  The NFL landscape is shifting dramatically because of it.  I just hope a few of these teams that have been set at the QB position for 15 + years get to experience what it is like to no longer be set at the most critical position.

 

By the way LOL at Darnold being ranked behind Driskell and Mullins!  

 

 

Thats cause they hate big markets like NYC

[gobills404]

Here's another set of QB rankings from nfl.com

 

They have Josh ranked 5th behind Wilson, Rodgers, Jackson, and Mahomes.

Quote

Bills fans have been eagerly anticipating the day when a national broadcaster could realistically describe their quarterback's passing style as "feathering it in there," as CBS' Adam Archuleta did during Allen's scintillating 11-play, 97-yard touchdown march in Buffalo's second drive at Miami. Allen went on to unfurl a panoply of parabolic lofts and high-arcing jumpshots, allowing the playmaking trio of Stefon Diggs, Smokey Brown and Cole Beasley the time to track the ball and beat their defenders in coverage. If this is the year Allen is patiently going through his progressions and adding the long-awaited touch pass to his overwhelming physical gifts, it changes everything -- not only for his own development, but also for Buffalo's Super Bowl aspirations. This team's quarterback can pull off plays other team's quarterbacks can't even imagine. That's an incredible edge, one Allen is going to need now that he's set to square off against competition stiffer than the Jets and Dolphins.

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

2 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

In the AFC you have Mahomes who is the big elephant in the room, he is where Aaron Rodgers was at in 2011 only even younger and a bit better. Then you have Deshaun Watson and Lamar Jackson as the new top young guys with Josh knocking on the door of being in that conversation. Of course in the third tier you have the guys with potential like Burrow, Darnold, Mayfield, Locke, Hurbert, Tua, and Minshew.

 

In the NFC you are less top heavy with QB's under 30 but you have a lot of good young QB's some of whom might take that step up to rival the Wilson's and Rodgers up top. Kyler Murray, Goff, Wentz, Jimmy G, and Dak are all solid starting caliber to good QB's. None are at that elite level yet but any of them could step up. The NFC certainly skews older at QB. Brees and Brady aside you have Rodgers who is in his late 30's, Wilson who is in his prime at 31 going on 32 later in the season, and Stafford and Matt Ryan who are in their mid-30's. You do have some other third tier young QB's like Daniel Jones, Haskins and Trubisky but I just don't see them panning out.

 

Overall this is the strongest time for QB play in a long time in the NFL if not ever. I would say half or just under half of all NFL teams have good QB's capable of putting up big points and improving the quality of play of the team around them. 

I feel like late 80s early 90s were this way

[Shaw66]

8 hours ago, BillsToast said:

As far as the transformation of stats from college to the NFL I think its a few factors that make a massive difference.

 

1. They changed the schemes to match what they know

2. They changed the rules to make those schemes effective

3. WRs have stickum on their hands with these modern gloves

4. QBs feel less physical pressure as they can't get hurt like they used and can relax more

 

I don't think for a second Kyler Murray could exist on the 80's Broncos like Elway. Simplified spread offenses, more read and react, and changing the rules turned Farve from a career 80's QB rating to the 100's for the Jets. He wasn't that much better, the game changed. 

Good stuff.  Thanks.   

8 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

In the AFC you have Mahomes who is the big elephant in the room, he is where Aaron Rodgers was at in 2011 only even younger and a bit better. Then you have Deshaun Watson and Lamar Jackson as the new top young guys with Josh knocking on the door of being in that conversation. Of course in the third tier you have the guys with potential like Burrow, Darnold, Mayfield, Locke, Hurbert, Tua, and Minshew.

 

In the NFC you are less top heavy with QB's under 30 but you have a lot of good young QB's some of whom might take that step up to rival the Wilson's and Rodgers up top. Kyler Murray, Goff, Wentz, Jimmy G, and Dak are all solid starting caliber to good QB's. None are at that elite level yet but any of them could step up. The NFC certainly skews older at QB. Brees and Brady aside you have Rodgers who is in his late 30's, Wilson who is in his prime at 31 going on 32 later in the season, and Stafford and Matt Ryan who are in their mid-30's. You do have some other third tier young QB's like Daniel Jones, Haskins and Trubisky but I just don't see them panning out.

 

Overall this is the strongest time for QB play in a long time in the NFL if not ever. I would say half or just under half of all NFL teams have good QB's capable of putting up big points and improving the quality of play of the team around them. 

This is excellent too.  It's a good summary of the young QBs.   I just think that as the league adjusts to the new offenses, not all of them will survive on top.  

[Bss]

9 hours ago, BillsToast said:

I don't think for a second Kyler Murray could exist on the 80's Broncos like Elway. Simplified spread offenses, more read and react, and changing the rules turned Farve from a career 80's QB rating to the 100's for the Jets. He wasn't that much better, the game changed. 

Flutie and Kyler aren't that different and he showed he could play pretty damn well in the 90s NFL at least. 

[BillsToast]

2 hours ago, Bss said:

Flutie and Kyler aren't that different and he showed he could play pretty damn well in the 90s NFL at least. 

 

Behind the best D in football or the 2nd best. Look at his stats when he started for the last year with us and tell me how many QBs you'd take with 19 TDs 16 INTs, 200 yards a game, and a 75 QB rating. That would be 3rd string or a rookie. 

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FlutDo00/gamelog/1999/

[GunnerBill]

13 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

In the AFC you have Mahomes who is the big elephant in the room, he is where Aaron Rodgers was at in 2011 only even younger and a bit better. Then you have Deshaun Watson and Lamar Jackson as the new top young guys with Josh knocking on the door of being in that conversation. Of course in the third tier you have the guys with potential like Burrow, Darnold, Mayfield, Locke, Hurbert, Tua, and Minshew.

 

In the NFC you are less top heavy with QB's under 30 but you have a lot of good young QB's some of whom might take that step up to rival the Wilson's and Rodgers up top. Kyler Murray, Goff, Wentz, Jimmy G, and Dak are all solid starting caliber to good QB's. None are at that elite level yet but any of them could step up. The NFC certainly skews older at QB. Brees and Brady aside you have Rodgers who is in his late 30's, Wilson who is in his prime at 31 going on 32 later in the season, and Stafford and Matt Ryan who are in their mid-30's. You do have some other third tier young QB's like Daniel Jones, Haskins and Trubisky but I just don't see them panning out.

 

Overall this is the strongest time for QB play in a long time in the NFL if not ever. I would say half or just under half of all NFL teams have good QB's capable of putting up big points and improving the quality of play of the team around them. 

 

I mostly agree with this but think putting Jones in with Haskins and Trubisky is harsh. I wasn't a fan of Jones coming out and I am not by any means saying he has made it but he has showed a capacity to play the position at the NFL level beyond anything the other two have put on tape yet. He is closer to Jimmy G than Trubisky IMO.

[Chaos]

Watson is over rated. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

On 9/24/2020 at 6:38 AM, jeremy2020 said:

 

or...ya know...the NFL told referees to stuff the whistle..

 

This is certainly a part of the reason why scoring is way up. But overall QB play being way up? I'm not sure. I could see lack of crowd noise being just as big a factor. It's probably like going through practice for some of these guys. They are dialed in.

 

It's mostly holding penalties on the line that are drastically down right? Like 50%? That's certainly eliminating drive killing 2nd and long situations but QBs still have to make the throws to keep the chains moving.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

On 9/24/2020 at 4:32 PM, Zerovoltz said:

Still......all 32 can't be awesome....there will always be a degree of separation from best to worst. 

 

Yep. And what we will see, and have already seen, is the middle and floor get raised as the ceiling gets raised. 20-25 years ago a QB rating in the mid 90's probably meant you were top 5. Now a QB rating in the low 90's has you ranked somewhere between 12th and 19th  depending on the year. The 2000 season though for example only had 7 QBs with a 90 QB rating or higher.

 

What will happen is scoring will go up as overall QB play gets better. But we will still have bad QB's. Bad QB's will just be considered any QB with a rating less than 95. Crazy.

[bobobonators]

On 9/24/2020 at 8:02 AM, Whkfc said:

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/week-3-nfl-qb-power-rankings-jared-goff-josh-allen-surge-into-top-10-as-carson-wentz-drew-brees-slide/

Going through the list its pretty crazy how deep the qb position is in the NFL right now Trent Dilfer says alot of it is due to the lack of crowd noise right now. But man so many guys are putting up some great numbers. 

its a passing league. Correspondingly, not many great RB

[C.Biscuit97]

11 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Yep. And what we will see, and have already seen, is the middle and floor get raised as the ceiling gets raised. 20-25 years ago a QB rating in the mid 90's probably meant you were top 5. Now a QB rating in the low 90's has you ranked somewhere between 12th and 19th  depending on the year. The 2000 season though for example only had 7 QBs with a 90 QB rating or higher.

 

What will happen is scoring will go up as overall QB play gets better. But we will still have bad QB's. Bad QB's will just be considered any QB with a rating less than 95. Crazy.

Yup.  The league and its rules hide bad qbs more.  For the first 100 years of the nfl, there was one 5,000 yard passing season.  Dak Prescott missed it by less than 100 yards. 
 

there are some good qbs but it has never been easier to pass.  It’s the PED era with Brady Anderson hitting 50 home runs.

5 minutes ago, bobobonators said:

its a passing league. Correspondingly, not many great RB

It makes what good rbs do even more impressive.  I do wonder if they will ever be a shift because teams just play nickel and dime now.  Lots of opportunities for big plays in the run game. 

[bobobonators]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Yup.  The league and its rules hide bad qbs more.  For the first 100 years of the nfl, there was one 5,000 yard passing season.  Dak Prescott missed it by less than 100 yards. 
 

there are some good qbs but it has never been easier to pass.  It’s the PED era with Brady Anderson hitting 50 home runs.

It makes what good rbs do even more impressive.  I do wonder if they will ever be a shift because teams just play nickel and dime now.  Lots of opportunities for big plays in the run game. 

I was literally going to ask if/when you think there will be a shift. I guess it depends on officiating too, which is currently stacked against the defense. Its so much easier to move an offense down the field passing than running in today’s NFL. The aerial attack is here to stay for a long time. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

7 minutes ago, bobobonators said:

I was literally going to ask if/when you think there will be a shift. I guess it depends on officiating too, which is currently stacked against the defense. Its so much easier to move an offense down the field passing than running in today’s NFL. The aerial attack is here to stay for a long time. 

 

Yeah. Why run for 5 ypc when you can throw for 8.5 per attempt at 70% completion and 0 INTs?

 

Throwing the ball a lot used to be risky. In 2000 25 QB's threw 10 or more INTs and 11 threw 15 or more. Last year only 5 QBs threw 15 or more INTs and 15 threw 10 or more.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Sammy Watkins' Rib

[Chaos]

1 hour ago, Chaos said:

Watson is over rated. 

Quote

 

Kyler Murray is overrated

Deandre Hopkins is underrated

Edited September 26, 2020 by Chaos

[machine gun kelly]

On 9/24/2020 at 10:02 AM, mannc said:

I hate to say it, but based on his performance Sunday night, I’d have to say Cam Newton is seriously underrated here.  It’s probably the best he’s played since his MVP season, and i don’t think it’s a fluke.  He looks fully healthy and he’s finally being well-coached.  Looks to be an upgrade from Brady, unfortunately.

Mannc, I’m with you in that I didn’t expect Newton to be this good so early, but I also don’t think he makes it the whole year.  Did you see the contact he had week 1 with the Dolphins.  I’m not trashing him, just he’s 31 playing like he’s 25.  His body will break down if he keeps this up at some point.  I don’t wish ill of him as I never want to see guys get hurt, but if he wants to make it, he needs to slide, run out of bounds and use his legs like Wilson who is a master of being accurate and mobile.  He just is the best at avoiding hits.

 

I can see the love for Murray.  If you didn’t watch his full games, it may come across like he came out of nowhere.  My middle son loves the Cards (long story from when he was 7 and met Larry Fitz SB week in Tampa).  Bottom line is I watch all their games to talk to him about it, and he really is lighting it up.  Fitz is still Fitz, and Hopkins has catapulted this team.  I’m fine with Allen where he’s rated, but if he repeats a performance like the first two weeks (minus the fumbles) against the Rams, Raiders and Titans, he should be 5th.  He’s never going to be rated higher than Wilson, Mahomes, and Jackson as they are playing the best in the league.

[billsfan89]

10 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I mostly agree with this but think putting Jones in with Haskins and Trubisky is harsh. I wasn't a fan of Jones coming out and I am not by any means saying he has made it but he has showed a capacity to play the position at the NFL level beyond anything the other two have put on tape yet. He is closer to Jimmy G than Trubisky IMO.

 

I will believe Jones is better than he is when I see it. It is possible that the Giants have put him in a bad spot but overall I am not too impressed with what I have seen from him. I do not think he can drive the ball downfield needed for a full caliber NFL offense. 

Edited September 26, 2020 by billsfan89

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, billsfan89 said:

 

I will believe Jones is better than he is when I see it. It is possible that the Giants have put him in a bad spot but overall I am not too impressed with what I have seen from him. I do not think he can drive the ball downfield needed for a full caliber NFL offense. 

 

He has played some pretty good games. I remain a little skeptical but he doesn't deserve to be in a category with Haskins who has had one good game and Trubisky.

[billsfan89]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He has played some pretty good games. I remain a little skeptical but he doesn't deserve to be in a category with Haskins who has had one good game and Trubisky.

 

I haven't seen too much consistency from him. I am putting him in the unproven category right now which to me is right in there with Haskins and Trubisky. Jones is probably the best of the bunch but none of the three have done much in my mind. 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, billsfan89 said:

 

I haven't seen too much consistency from him. I am putting him in the unproven category right now which to me is right in there with Haskins and Trubisky. Jones is probably the best of the bunch but none of the three have done much in my mind. 

 

I agree Jones is unproven. I think Trubisky and Haskins are proven. Just not in a good way.

[mannc]

4 hours ago, machine gun kelly said:

Mannc, I’m with you in that I didn’t expect Newton to be this good so early, but I also don’t think he makes it the whole year.  Did you see the contact he had week 1 with the Dolphins.  I’m not trashing him, just he’s 31 playing like he’s 25.  His body will break down if he keeps this up at some point.  I don’t wish ill of him as I never want to see guys get hurt, but if he wants to make it, he needs to slide, run out of bounds and use his legs like Wilson who is a master of being accurate and mobile.  He just is the best at avoiding hits.

 

I can see the love for Murray.  If you didn’t watch his full games, it may come across like he came out of nowhere.  My middle son loves the Cards (long story from when he was 7 and met Larry Fitz SB week in Tampa).  Bottom line is I watch all their games to talk to him about it, and he really is lighting it up.  Fitz is still Fitz, and Hopkins has catapulted this team.  I’m fine with Allen where he’s rated, but if he repeats a performance like the first two weeks (minus the fumbles) against the Rams, Raiders and Titans, he should be 5th.  He’s never going to be rated higher than Wilson, Mahomes, and Jackson as they are playing the best in the league.

I don’t think Newton is any more likely to get hurt than JA.  They have a similar running style and I think will be used in similar ways in their offenses.  Both have been so effective from the pocket, that I don’t expect to see either run very much except in the red zone.

 

Murphy reminds me of Flutie and R Wilson...he just never seems to take a hit.  As you point out, very different from Cam and JA, who seem to relish contact...

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

3 minutes ago, mannc said:

I don’t think Newton is any more likely to get hurt than JA.  They have a similar running style and I think will be used in similar ways in their offenses.  Both have been so effective from the pocket, that I don’t expect to see either run very much except in the red zone.

 

Murphy reminds me of Flutie and R Wilson...he just never seems to take a hit.  As you point out, very different from Cam and JA, who seem to relish contact...

 

Newton is over 30.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

1 hour ago, billsfan89 said:

 

I haven't seen too much consistency from him. I am putting him in the unproven category right now which to me is right in there with Haskins and Trubisky. Jones is probably the best of the bunch but none of the three have done much in my mind. 

 

He's inconsistent but his good games are not just good they are great. The other thing is the Giants are not babying him. He's thrown 40+ attempts in 7 out of his 14 career starts. And he's never throw less than 30 pass attempts in any of his 14 starts. 

 

Haskins on the other hand has never had 40 attempts in a game and has only had 3 games with over 30 pass attempts and none over 35.

[SirAndrew]

2 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

 

I will believe Jones is better than he is when I see it. It is possible that the Giants have put him in a bad spot but overall I am not too impressed with what I have seen from him. I do not think he can drive the ball downfield needed for a full caliber NFL offense. 

The Giants are a poorly run franchise, and I just didn’t like the Daniel Jones pick from the beginning. Drafting an NFL QB is a total crapshoot based mostly on luck. However, I agree with your assessment that Jones is too limited. He doesn’t have the ceiling that great QB’s have. I think the best he could ever be is a mediocre starter. He’s not a guy I would have attempted to build a franchise around, but I suppose Barkley was that guy for the Giants in many ways,  because we all know you build a franchise around a RB. Barkley is an immense talent, but the Giants should have been drafting a QB when they picked Saquon. 

[Malazan]

7 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

This is certainly a part of the reason why scoring is way up. But overall QB play being way up? I'm not sure. I could see lack of crowd noise being just as big a factor. It's probably like going through practice for some of these guys. They are dialed in.

 

It's mostly holding penalties on the line that are drastically down right? Like 50%? That's certainly eliminating drive killing 2nd and long situations but QBs still have to make the throws to keep the chains moving.

 

I didn't say anything about QB play...I just said it's much more likely that the drop in penalties is much more likely to be the reason than lack of crowd noise. 

[Shaw66]

8 minutes ago, SirAndrew said:

The Giants are a poorly run franchise, and I just didn’t like the Daniel Jones pick from the beginning. Drafting an NFL QB is a total crapshoot based mostly on luck. However, I agree with your assessment that Jones is too limited. He doesn’t have the ceiling that great QB’s have. I think the best he could ever be is a mediocre starter. He’s not a guy I would have attempted to build a franchise around, but I suppose Barkley was that guy for the Giants in many ways,  because we all know you build a franchise around a RB. Barkley is an immense talent, but the Giants should have been drafting a QB when they picked Saquon. 

This, although I think it's too early to tell about Jones. He does some excellent things on the field.

 

I was just so pleased that the Giants decided to take a running back, leaving the QB field more open for the Bills.  It's kind of amazing that Gettleman is screwing things up there while Beane, his student, seems to understand the job very well.  

[machine gun kelly]

22 minutes ago, mannc said:

I don’t think Newton is any more likely to get hurt than JA.  They have a similar running style and I think will be used in similar ways in their offenses.  Both have been so effective from the pocket, that I don’t expect to see either run very much except in the red zone.

 

Murphy reminds me of Flutie and R Wilson...he just never seems to take a hit.  As you point out, very different from Cam and JA, who seem to relish contact...

Not doing the Prince thing, but Mannc, excellent points.  Having a workout, church, daddy/daughter day and yes all Bills by 1 pm.    If you get up,at 5 am, you can do it all.  Go bills and watch the rams cry by 4:30 pm.  Real bills fan.

[mannc]

25 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Newton is over 30.

Barely