Fracking industry projected to have $300B in losses

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

Yes, the Bandits...and Amerks, and most importantly, the Bills.  So much for the silly "lightning in a bottle once" claim just because the Sabres (when you've always thought the NHL is a joke, but now all of a sudden it's important) have been struggling to win.   But not for a lack of effort or bad faith on the part of Terry.

 

And obviously the fans want the Sabres to win.  But the most important thing is actually having a team.  Tell me what new owner will spend money on the team and keep it in Buffalo like Terry is and will, much less one who will not be inept, and I'll agree that it's worth a shot.  Failing that, they're not being sold so hope things eventually turn around (since you now seem to care about them) and enjoy the Bills.

 

No points for minor league hockey.  Let's not even mention lacrosse.  Come doc.  

 

The topic is not "do I like the NHL?" or "do I think the NHL is 'important'?".  Lame diversion, doc.

 

The question is: has the Pegula ownership of the Sabres been a disaster (unequivocally yes, as I have documented and you haven't cogently/convincingly argued against) AND could another owner produce a better product.   It would be difficult not to.  Your insistence that the fans of the Sabres MUST suffer eternally because all other buyer would absolutely move the team is not a strong one.  You certainly would NOT be making it if the Bills were coming off of 4 playoff appearances of the previous 6  seasons after Ralph was gone and Pegula drove them into irrelevance for 9 straight years with 5 coaches in 7 years and 3 GMs. 

[Doc]

29 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

No points for minor league hockey.  Let's not even mention lacrosse.  Come doc.  

 

The topic is not "do I like the NHL?" or "do I think the NHL is 'important'?".  Lame diversion, doc.

 

The question is: has the Pegula ownership of the Sabres been a disaster (unequivocally yes, as I have documented and you haven't cogently/convincingly argued against) AND could another owner produce a better product.   It would be difficult not to.  Your insistence that the fans of the Sabres MUST suffer eternally because all other buyer would absolutely move the team is not a strong one.  You certainly would NOT be making it if the Bills were coming off of 4 playoff appearances of the previous 6  seasons after Ralph was gone and Pegula drove them into irrelevance for 9 straight years with 5 coaches in 7 years and 3 GMs. 

 

Well then, the NHL is a minor pro sports franchise in comparison to the Bills, like you've been saying all these years.  No deflection there.  You can't pick and choose what counts when it doesn't suit your argument.  And everyone agrees that the most important franchise for the Pegulas, and Buffalo, is the Bills.

 

As for the last sentence, I mentioned this to you before.  Terry kept Regier and Ruff for 2 years and gave them everything they wanted...and they failed.  What was it that Terry did to them?

 

Look, you entered the fray when you claimed that it would be impossible for a new owner to do worse.  I said that a new owner might not be any better and actually worse, might move the team.  Your whistling past the graveyard and "have they moved?" non-arguments notwithstanding, it's a real possibility and not worth testing. 

 

Thanks for the histrionics but Sabres fans won't "suffer eternally."  And if they do, at least they'll have a team to suffer over.

 

 

[Mr. WEO]

14 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Well then, the NHL is a minor pro sports franchise in comparison to the Bills, like you've been saying all these years.  No deflection there.  You can't pick and choose what counts when it doesn't suit your argument.  And everyone agrees that the most important franchise for the Pegulas, and Buffalo, is the Bills.

 

As for the last sentence, I mentioned this to you before.  Terry kept Regier and Ruff for 2 years and gave them everything they wanted...and they failed.  What was it that Terry did to them?

 

Look, you entered the fray when you claimed that it would be impossible for a new owner to do worse.  I said that a new owner might not be any better and actually worse, might move the team.  Your whistling past the graveyard and "have they moved?" non-arguments notwithstanding, it's a real possibility and not worth testing. 

 

Thanks for the histrionics but Sabres fans won't "suffer eternally."  And if they do, at least they'll have a team to suffer over.

 

 

 

Good for the soul!

 

I stand by my statement. No owner could do worse than absolute futility and FO/coaching chaos.  

 

I haven't changed my stance on the status of the NFL in the popular psyche in this country.  But my attitude toward that league is completely beside the point.  I can point out the obvious regardless of whether I think it is "minor".  There's not fruit for you in repeating that off-point point.

 

A new owner wouldn't move the team mostly because, in that league, they are already in the best market they could find.  Regardless, it's a dumb argument. 

[Doc]

6 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Good for the soul!

 

I stand by my statement. No owner could do worse than absolute futility and FO/coaching chaos.  

 

I haven't changed my stance on the status of the NFL in the popular psyche in this country.  But my attitude toward that league is completely beside the point.  I can point out the obvious regardless of whether I think it is "minor".  There's not fruit for you in repeating that off-point point.

 

A new owner wouldn't move the team mostly because, in that league, they are already in the best market they could find.  Regardless, it's a dumb argument. 

 

Yeah, thinking the team wouldn't move because they're already in the best market isn't a dumb argument.  LOL!

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

Yeah, thinking the team wouldn't move because they're already in the best market isn't a dumb argument.  LOL!

 

Why, because you say so?

 

They have the highest local TV ratings than any franchise in the NHL.

 

They average bigger home crowds than The Islanders, Devils, LA Kings, San Jose, Carolina, Anaheim and 5 other franchises.  They draw about  as many as the Rangers and the Bruins.

 

And yet even in these markets, which are huge or had significant recent success or both  can't outdraw a team or get better local ratings that is in a small town and has sucked for nearly 10 years since the owner bought them.  Yet, there's ANOTHER place the Sabres could move to and do better financially......because you say so?

 

 

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

Why, because you say so?

 

They have the highest local TV ratings than any franchise in the NHL.

 

They average bigger home crowds than The Islanders, Devils, LA Kings, San Jose, Carolina, Anaheim and 5 other franchises.  They draw about  as many as the Rangers and the Bruins.

 

And yet even in these markets, which are huge or had significant recent success or both  can't outdraw a team or get better local ratings that is in a small town and has sucked for nearly 10 years since the owner bought them.  Yet, there's ANOTHER place the Sabres could move to and do better financially......because you say so?

 

No not because I say so; because there always end up being more/better markets after you claim "now there are no more/better markets."  I mean, how many times did you insist the NFL would never go back to LA?  Now there are 2 teams there, with 2 former NFL markets out in the cold.  Las Vegas was a new market.  Seattle could be a great market for the NHL.  Hamilton could also be one.  Baltimore is another name I've heard mentioned.  All it takes is a new owner without ties to the area to look for a more lucrative market and poof, the team is gone.

 

But I realize why you cling to it this notion: because of your false claim that Ralph only kept the team in Buffalo because there were no better markets.  And you're still doing it.

 

As for attendance, the Sabres are around 20th when you factor-in seating capacity.  And they have some of the lowest ticket prices.  Build a bigger arena in a better market and charge more and voila!

[Mr. WEO]

9 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

No not because I say so; because there always end up being more/better markets after you claim "now there are no more/better markets."  I mean, how many times did you insist the NFL would never go back to LA?  Now there are 2 teams there, with 2 former NFL markets out in the cold.  Las Vegas was a new market.  Seattle could be a great market for the NHL.  Hamilton could also be one.  Baltimore is another name I've heard mentioned.  All it takes is a new owner without ties to the area to look for a more lucrative market and poof, the team is gone.

 

But I realize why you cling to it this notion: because of your false claim that Ralph only kept the team in Buffalo because there were no better markets.  And you're still doing it.

 

As for attendance, the Sabres are around 20th when you factor-in seating capacity.  And they have some of the lowest ticket prices.  Build a bigger arena in a better market and charge more and voila!

Ralph was bluffing.  He never wanted to move and had nowhere to go.

 

That “Hamilton” market is HUGE! And Baltimore is a huge horned of NHL hockey—when they get tired of following the Caps! That rollin in the dough Shanghai-La is DYING to build a “bigger arena” for big time pro hockey!

 

POOF!! Lol

[Doc]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

Ralph was bluffing.  He never wanted to move and had nowhere to go.

 

That “Hamilton” market is HUGE! And Baltimore is a huge horned of NHL hockey—when they get tired of following the Caps! That rollin in the dough Shanghai-La is DYING to build a “bigger arena” for big time pro hockey!

 

POOF!! Lol

 

How about that LA market, WEO?  Never gonna see a team, much less 2, there again, eh?

 

LOL!

[Augie]

I have only read a few of these posts, but I commend both of you for your endurance!   

 

GO BILLS! 

[Simon Says]

On 6/22/2020 at 9:36 AM, JR in Pittsburgh said:

 

I could be wrong, but I thought the Pegulas sold virtually all of their oil and gas assets year ago to Shell.  That’s why they are so wealthy.  They may a few little assets here and there, but that’s just chump change—more for a hobby. 

 

Am I wrong? Are they still in the oil and gas business? 

More like 10 years ago, but started another company 

 

[Mr. WEO]

52 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

How about that LA market, WEO?  Never gonna see a team, much less 2, there again, eh?

 

LOL!

Yes.  LA is starving for another NHL franchise doc.  Especially one that can bring in overr 17k at the gate! Those are Chargers numbers!!

 

is Bettman on record pushing for that?  Is anyone?  
 

You should have hit erase at “Hamilton” doc.  But I did appreciate the chuckle.  And...Baltimore lol

Edited June 28, 2020 by Mr. WEO

[Doc]

32 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Yes.  LA is starving for another NHL franchise doc.  Especially one that can bring in overr 17k at the gate! Those are Chargers numbers!!

 

is Bettman on record pushing for that?  Is anyone?  
 

You should have hit erase at “Hamilton” doc.  But I did appreciate the chuckle.  And...Baltimore lol

 

No, LA was in reference to your claim for years that NFL markets were saturated and Ralph could never move the team there.  Or any of the half dozen cities to which teams were moved or expanded into since the 90's.

 

And 2 teams in LA are closer than Hamilton is to Toronto or Baltimore is to Landover.  Not sure what point you think you're making there considering towns would welcome their own teams, there are the Ravens (who regained a franchise after losing it despite the proximity to), the Redskins, and there are 6M people in the greater Toronto area and a waiting list for season tickets for Leafs games. 

 

But what about Seattle?  You conveniently ignored that one.

[Mr. WEO]

30 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

No, LA was in reference to your claim for years that NFL markets were saturated and Ralph could never move the team there.  Or any of the half dozen cities to which teams were moved or expanded into since the 90's.

 

And 2 teams in LA are closer than Hamilton is to Toronto or Baltimore is to Landover.  Not sure what point you think you're making there considering towns would welcome their own teams, there are the Ravens (who regained a franchise after losing it despite the proximity to), the Redskins, and there are 6M people in the greater Toronto area and a waiting list for season tickets for Leafs games. 

 

But what about Seattle?  You conveniently ignored that one.

 
Ralph moving the LA was obviously impossible.  Not even the mythical San Antonio was a viable option for that old coot.  You’re just making stuff up as usual.

 

Stop with the a Hamilton nonsense. It’s embarrassing you.  
 

Seattle does know what hockey is. They LOST their NBA  franchise —-and the NBA is a viable league.  How many NHL  teams passed in Seattle so far? 

Edited June 28, 2020 by Mr. WEO

[Doc]

2 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 Ralph moving the LA was obviously impossible.  Not even the mythical San Antonio was a viable option for that old coot.  You’re just making stuff up as usual.

 

Stop with the a Hamilton nonsense. It’s embarrassing you.  
 

Seattle does know what hockey is.

 

Anywhere was possible.  John Wawrow, who had contacts in and around the team, told you as much.  You just didn't want to hear it.  No matter.

 

I wasn't the one who suggested Hamilton, but it's not even close to nonsense.  It's 30 miles from Toronto and draws from the same population, while again, the Leafs have a waiting list.

[Mr. WEO]

17 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Anywhere was possible.  John Wawrow, who had contacts in and around the team, told you as much.  You just didn't want to hear it.  No matter.

 

I wasn't the one who suggested Hamilton, but it's not even close to nonsense.  It's 30 miles from Toronto and draws from the same population, while again, the Leafs have a waiting list.

How many times has the NHL expanded while completely ignoring Hamilton? There will never be a team there.  There NHL repeatedly expanded into NASCAR country instead of a suburb of Toronto.

 

If “waiting lists” led to teams relocating, there would have been long ago second teams in Green Bay and New England.

 

You're flailing with this (and “Seattle”) nonsense. 

[Doc]

9 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

How many times has the NHL expanded while completely ignoring Hamilton? There will never be a team there.  There NHL repeatedly expanded into NASCAR country instead of a suburb of Toronto.

 

If “waiting lists” led to teams relocating, there would have been long ago second teams in Green Bay and New England.

 

You're flailing with this (and “Seattle”) nonsense. 

 

Try and keep up.  The topic is/has been a new owner moving the Sabres, i.e. how a new owner could be worse.  The NHL wasn't/isn't going to expand into Hamilton with the Leafs and Sabres were there, obviously. 

 

I only mentioned/added expansion to show you how wrong you've been all these years when you claimed there was nowhere for Ralph to move the Bills just because you didn't like him and couldn't bring yourself to admit that he kept the team in Buffalo because he never really wanted to move the team ("he's an old coot," good one!).  You still haven't learned and are now claiming the Sabres can't move. 

 

And Seattle would be a great market for an NHL team.  The corporate boxes and sponsorships...

[Mr. WEO]

39 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Try and keep up.  The topic is/has been a new owner moving the Sabres, i.e. how a new owner could be worse.  The NHL wasn't/isn't going to expand into Hamilton with the Leafs and Sabres were there, obviously. 

 

I only mentioned/added expansion to show you how wrong you've been all these years when you claimed there was nowhere for Ralph to move the Bills just because you didn't like him and couldn't bring yourself to admit that he kept the team in Buffalo because he never really wanted to move the team ("he's an old coot," good one!).  You still haven't learned and are now claiming the Sabres can't move. 

 

And Seattle would be a great market for an NHL team.  The corporate boxes and sponsorships...

 

It started with "a new owner could not do worse" running that team.  You have made it into a new owner would automatically move the team.

 

Hamilton isn't going to get a team located there just because there's a waiting list for Leafs tickets.  That makes no more sense than moving them to Brooklyn because the Rangers have a waiting list.   Wait....are the Sabres moving to Brooklyn?? Talk about "the corporate boxes and sponsorships"!!   

 

Ralph bluffed money out of Erie County at least twice with his "moving musings".  He had no plans.  Even Kraft's bluff came with blueprints and a jilted public (your town, doc).  Wilson had nothing but frightened Erie County execs and fans to get what he wanted.  Both groups came through.

 

I just looked up Seattle and they already are getting a team.  So you're saying Sabres fans have to start worrying about the "Baltimore Sabres" if Pegula sells.   

 

 

[Doc]

13 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

It started with "a new owner could not do worse" running that team.  You have made it into a new owner would automatically move the team.

 

Hamilton isn't going to get a team located there just because there's a waiting list for Leafs tickets.  That makes no more sense than moving them to Brooklyn because the Rangers have a waiting list.   Wait....are the Sabres moving to Brooklyn?? Talk about "the corporate boxes and sponsorships"!!   

 

Ralph bluffed money out of Erie County at least twice with his "moving musings".  He had no plans.  Even Kraft's bluff came with blueprints and a jilted public (your town, doc).  Wilson had nothing but frightened Erie County execs and fans to get what he wanted.  Both groups came through.

 

I just looked up Seattle and they already are getting a team.  So you're saying Sabres fans have to start worrying about the "Baltimore Sabres" if Pegula sells.  

 

Nice try but it started with this:

 

Yeah, both groups came through.  Because the owners never had any real intention of moving the team.  That doesn't mean they couldn't.

 

And what do you know, Seattle is getting a team.  What was that about "nonsense" about there being no new markets?  But now they're really really all gone.  LOL!

[Mr. WEO]

6 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Nice try but it started with this:

 

Yeah, both groups came through.  Because the owners never had any real intention of moving the team.  That doesn't mean they couldn't.

 

And what do you know, Seattle is getting a team.  What was that about "nonsense" about there being no new markets?  But now they're really really all gone.  LOL!

 

 

The above cut and paste is your response to my post:

 

 

I mean it was right above yours!

 

 

The markets aren't gone after all--my bad!  This opens it WIDE.

 

NYC is ripe for the (re)picking!  So much ticket demand!  They will outdraw the Islanders (who will then be free to move to Hamilton??).

 

Maybe.....San Antonio!  Isn't that where Ralph was "going to move" the team (or something).  

 

Mobile Alabama?  Why not--they have some companies down there and they sure know about air-conditioning!

 

Baltimore is dead broke....so don't count them out for building a new NHL arena!

 

Forget Hamilton----how about..... London??  Sure it's the one in Canada, but at least the NHL could kinda scoop its serial abuser (the NFL) and claim they were first in actually putting a franchise in London!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2020 by Mr. WEO

[Doc]

4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

They aren't gone after all.  NYC is ripe for the picking!  Maybe.....San Antonio!  Isn't that where Ralph was going to move the team (or something).  

 

Ralph had no where to go.  And he wasn't ever going.  He did what owners do---make noise about leaving to get free stadiums and upgrades. 

 

Yeah, nowhere.  Just Carolina, Jacksonville (would have been a mistake, but...), Houston, Cleveland, Baltimore, LA (twice) and maybe even Vegas.  But outside of those places, nowhere...

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

 

Yeah, nowhere.  Just Carolina, Jacksonville (would have been a mistake, but...), Houston, Cleveland, Baltimore, LA (twice) and maybe even Vegas.  But outside of those places, nowhere...

 

You've made that argument before---you're simply listing teams that have moved and expanded in the course of NFL history with zero context as to what was going on in the League throughout those decades or at the time of those moves.  It makes no more sense now than it did when you said it before.  Which on of the those towns was Ralph in communication with decades ago when he first talked about moving?  

 

Vegas and LA happened after he died in his 90's.

 

Carolina and Jacksonville were expansion teams with owners and everything and both were created years later.  Neither was a legitimate place for Ralph way back.  

 

Houston, Cleveland and Baltimore were moved because their cities would not build new stadiums.....but they would (a the same time) build one for Ralph?  Or was he going to pay cash? 

 

LOL

[Doc]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

You've made that argument before---you're simply listing teams that have moved and expanded in the course of NFL history with zero context as to what was going on in the League throughout those decades or at the time of those moves.  It makes no more sense now than it did when you said it before.  Which on of the those towns was Ralph in communication with decades ago when he first talked about moving?  

 

Vegas and LA happened after he died in his 90's.

 

Carolina and Jacksonville were expansion teams with owners and everything and both were created years later.  Neither was a legitimate place for Ralph way back.  

 

Houston, Cleveland and Baltimore were moved because their cities would not build new stadiums.....but they would (a the same time) build one for Ralph?  Or was he going to pay cash? 

 

LOL

 

Yes, LA and Vegas suddenly appeared as markets after Ralph died.  Good one.

 

Never mind that your "context" means little since it would be just as easy to move the Bills to a city that lost a team as expand into it.  Or just move to Carolina or Jacksonville.

 

But no, only new and other owners could go to those locations.  Not Ralph.  Just because you say so.

 

LOL

[Beast]

The Bills/Ralph, could have picked up and moved to Toronto at any time during the last 20 plus years, going back to he suite sales in the late 90's,  and the NFL would have probably applauded that move.

 

I guarantee most owners look upon WNY as a red headed stepchild because the region is keeping the NFL from having another huge market team in Toronto.

Edited June 28, 2020 by Beast

[Doc]

2 hours ago, Beast said:

The Bills/Ralph, could have picked up and moved to Toronto at any time during the last 20 plus years, going back to he suite sales in the late 90's,  and the NFL would have probably applauded that move.

 

I guarantee most owners look upon WNY as a red headed stepchild because the region is keeping the NFL from having another huge market team in Toronto.

 

Thanks, I keep forgetting to mention Toronto (there's also STL and Phoenix).  As yup, that's what I've been saying.  There were many opportunities to leave and the league would have not only welcomed it but also probably helped make the move easier by waiving the relo fee or paying for expenses.  It seems pretty obvious.

Edited June 28, 2020 by Doc

[Mr. WEO]

3 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Yes, LA and Vegas suddenly appeared as markets after Ralph died.  Good one.

 

Never mind that your "context" means little since it would be just as easy to move the Bills to a city that lost a team as expand into it.  Or just move to Carolina or Jacksonville.

 

But no, only new and other owners could go to those locations.  Not Ralph.  Just because you say so.

 

LOL

 

Context means little?  Ok then entertain us further by explaining how Ralph could have "moved" to Cleveland, Baltimore or Houston after their respective owners bolted for lack of new stadiums.  Again, did he have some special charm that would force them. to build HIM a new stadium or was he going to pay for it?  Simple question, doc.  Not one team looked to move into any of those 3 locales.  Neither did Ralph.  The NFL was looking to expand, not watch more small market teams wife-swap cities.

 

And you know for sure that Vegas was never a viable option for Ralph (or any NFL team) when he was moaning about moving.  Why pretend you don't?  The NFL was against a team in LV due to gambling and "the integrity of the game".  So exactly what are you talking about?

 

And Ralph moving to LA at any time....is just a laugh riot.  That's even goofier than the Vegas thing.  The Rams were still in St. Louis a year after Wilson died.  The only way to even mention LA as a spot for Ralph to move would require you to claim that he would build a stadium out there, which of course is ridiculous.  So why mention LA as well?

 

So Cleveland, Baltimore, Houston, LA and Vegas weren't viable for Wilson.

 

 

[oldmanfan]

The Bills are not going anywhere because Kim grew up in WNY and wanted to buy them and keep them here.

 

The Sabres for sure aren’t going anywhere because Terry’s first love is hockey and the league knows Buffalo is a great hockey town.

 

The Pegulas have made commitments to the city with the Harbour Center and such.

 

So quit arguing.

[Doc]

8 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Context means little?  Ok then entertain us further by explaining how Ralph could have "moved" to Cleveland, Baltimore or Houston after their respective owners bolted for lack of new stadiums.  Again, did he have some special charm that would force them. to build HIM a new stadium or was he going to pay for it?  Simple question, doc.  Not one team looked to move into any of those 3 locales.  Neither did Ralph.  The NFL was looking to expand, not watch more small market teams wife-swap cities.

 

And you know for sure that Vegas was never a viable option for Ralph (or any NFL team) when he was moaning about moving.  Why pretend you don't?  The NFL was against a team in LV due to gambling and "the integrity of the game".  So exactly what are you talking about?

 

And Ralph moving to LA at any time....is just a laugh riot.  That's even goofier than the Vegas thing.  The Rams were still in St. Louis a year after Wilson died.  The only way to even mention LA as a spot for Ralph to move would require you to claim that he would build a stadium out there, which of course is ridiculous.  So why mention LA as well?

 

So Cleveland, Baltimore, Houston, LA and Vegas weren't viable for Wilson.

 

You realize that Cleveland, Baltimore and Houston built new stadiums for their new teams, right?  The cities all own them.  And where are you getting this claim that they wanted to only expand and not have an owner relocate? 

 

LA has been a market since the Raiders, and then later, the Rams moved out.  And who said anything about needing a new stadium?  The Coliseum was and is still there.  Just make some renovations like Ralph wanted done at Rich Stadium...

 

And unless I missed something, Vegas is still a gambling and "integrity" issue.  It didn''t just recently prohibit gambling and become virtuous.

 

And there's Toronto, STL (after the Cardinals moved) and Phoenix (to where the Cardinals moved).

 

But yes, Ralph is the only owner in the history of the NFL who couldn't move a franchise, much less a franchise in the smallest non-community-owned market.  It sounds even sillier when I type it.

[BullBuchanan]

Good. Ban Fracking.

[Mr. WEO]

58 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

You realize that Cleveland, Baltimore and Houston built new stadiums for their new teams, right?  The cities all own them.  And where are you getting this claim that they wanted to only expand and not have an owner relocate? 

 

LA has been a market since the Raiders, and then later, the Rams moved out.  And who said anything about needing a new stadium?  The Coliseum was and is still there.  Just make some renovations like Ralph wanted done at Rich Stadium...

 

And unless I missed something, Vegas is still a gambling and "integrity" issue.  It didn''t just recently prohibit gambling and become virtuous.

 

And there's Toronto, STL (after the Cardinals moved) and Phoenix (to where the Cardinals moved).

 

But yes, Ralph is the only owner in the history of the NFL who couldn't move a franchise, much less a franchise in the smallest non-community-owned market.  It sounds even sillier when I type it.

 

St Louis lost its team, bro.  Toronto isn't an NFL town (Ralph's shameless cash grab proved this to you doc), not the least of which reasons is that no one is building a proper stadium there.

 

Your lack of knowledge of history ("context") is, as usual, harming you.

 

Ralph agitated for a new stadium in 1973 and got one.  Therefore he had no need to thereafter pretend he was going to "move the team", until 1998 when he wanted the luxury box upgrades.  He got those too.  

 

Irsay moved the Colts in 1984...9 years into the new "Ralph" stadium.  Obviously no need to "move" to Baltimore, who would wait  10 more years for a franchise after Modell moved to Baltimore.  The Ravens were an expansion team.  The Browns were as well.  So there was zero point zero opportunity  (or reason) for Ralph to be involved in any way whatsoever with either Baltimore or Cleveland as far as thebNFL was concerned (your bizarre claims not withstanding). 

 

The "Oilers" had already moved to Tennessee when Ralph made noise about the luxury boxes in 1998.

 

Again, the NFL did not want to put a team in Vegas. You know this but, as usual, are pretending you don't in an attempt to paint yourself out of another corner.

 

The Coliseum is a dump that teams moved OUT of.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Doc]

11 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

St Louis lost its team, bro.  Toronto isn't an NFL town (Ralph's shameless cash grab proved this to you doc), not the least of which reasons is that no one is building a proper stadium there.

 

Your lack of knowledge of history ("context") is, as usual, harming you.

 

Ralph agitated for a new stadium in 1973 and got one.  Therefore he had no need to thereafter pretend he was going to "move the team", until 1998 when he wanted the luxury box upgrades.  He got those too.  

 

Irsay moved the Colts in 1984...9 years into the new "Ralph" stadium.  Obviously no need to "move" to Baltimore, who would wait  10 more years for a franchise after Modell moved to Baltimore.  The Ravens were an expansion team.  The Browns were as well.  So there was zero point zero opportunity  (or reason) for Ralph to be involved in any way whatsoever with either Baltimore or Cleveland as far as thebNFL was concerned (your bizarre claims not withstanding). 

 

The "Oilers" had already moved to Tennessee when Ralph made noise about the luxury boxes in 1998.

 

Again, the NFL did not want to put a team in Vegas. You know this but, as usual, are pretending you don't in an attempt to paint yourself out of another corner.

 

The Coliseum is a dump that teams moved OUT of. 

 

Yes, many cities lost their teams, bro, which made them prime candidates to get a replacement team either through expansion or relocation.  As you unwittingly admitted, the Cleveland Browns relocated to Baltimore to replace the team that relocated to Indianapolis, so your claim that these needed to be expansion teams only is false.  And then there were the expansion cities, which again could just as easily have been a relocated team.  That means every city, including LA (remove LV if it means that much to you) was open for Ralph.

 

As for your claim that the only time Ralph could have moved was circa 1998, why is that?  Because he publicly complained and because leases are unbreakable?  LOL!  He could have never said anything, up and moved the team and broken the lease like other owners have done...like the aforementioned Irsay.  

 

And hate to break it to you, but every owner who has moved or gotten a new stadium has done it for a "shameless cash grab" and "agitating for a new stadium."  None of them were losing money in their old digs and they simply wanted to make more.  But to you it was just Ralph.  Which says it all.

 

The bottom line is that Ralph never moved the team because he didn't want to, not because he couldn't.  He voted against every team move.  If the Sabres were to be sold, the new owner could easily move the team because just when you think there isn't a new market...suddenly there is.  Belabor it if you want but there's nothing more to say on the subject.

Edited June 29, 2020 by Doc

[Nextmanup]

On 6/25/2020 at 2:31 PM, Doc said:

Is it?

Yes.

 

[plenzmd1]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/29/chesapeake-energy-fracking-pioneer-files-for-bankruptcy-owing-9bn

 

Just of note, more debt than Exxon and Chevron combined.

Edited June 29, 2020 by plenzmd1

[Doc]

1 hour ago, plenzmd1 said:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/29/chesapeake-energy-fracking-pioneer-files-for-bankruptcy-owing-9bn

 

Just of note, more debt than Exxon and Chevron combined.

 

Ouch.

[Mr. WEO]

10 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Yes, many cities lost their teams, bro, which made them prime candidates to get a replacement team either through expansion or relocation.  As you unwittingly admitted, the Cleveland Browns relocated to Baltimore to replace the team that relocated to Indianapolis, so your claim that these needed to be expansion teams only is false.  And then there were the expansion cities, which again could just as easily have been a relocated team.  That means every city, including LA (remove LV if it means that much to you) was open for Ralph.

 

As for your claim that the only time Ralph could have moved was circa 1998, why is that?  Because he publicly complained and because leases are unbreakable?  LOL!  He could have never said anything, up and moved the team and broken the lease like other owners have done...like the aforementioned Irsay.  

 

And hate to break it to you, but every owner who has moved or gotten a new stadium has done it for a "shameless cash grab" and "agitating for a new stadium."  None of them were losing money in their old digs and they simply wanted to make more.  But to you it was just Ralph.  Which says it all.

 

The bottom line is that Ralph never moved the team because he didn't want to, not because he couldn't.  He voted against every team move.  If the Sabres were to be sold, the new owner could easily move the team because just when you think there isn't a new market...suddenly there is.  Belabor it if you want but there's nothing more to say on the subject.

 

Let's take these one at a time:

 

1). "unwittingly admitted"?  The "new" Browns were announced as an expansion team in 1998--when Ralph was agitating for upgrades to the stadium.  So clearly Cleveland was not a potential spot for Wilson to move to, besides the fact that it would make zero sense for him to move there.  LA was a nonstarter for the same reason that no other owner wanted to go there for years--the stadium is a dump and the fans apathetic.  Attendance sucked so the games were routinely blacked out.  That too would have been senseless for Ralph.  Unlike Kroenke, Wilson was never going to spring for a stadium.  But hey, "he could have moved there!", right?

 

2). Irsay may have moved the team "in the middle of the night", but he had been very publicly talking about moving in 1977.  He was openly courting other cities at that time.  He moved in 1984.  He took off and with the team that night because the Maryland Senate passed a law that would allow the city of Baltimore to seize the team by eminent domain 2 days prior.  So, stating he "up and moved the team" and "broke the lease" betrays your lack of depth of knowledge regarding that move, to be kind...

 

3). Hate to break it to me?  LOL, I posted that obvious point upstream---owners squeeze the locals for a new or renovated stadium or they threaten to move if they don't get it.  Yet now you say that Wilson could have moved the team AFTER Erie built Rich Stadium or AFTER Erie gave the Ralph it's upgrades?  Why?  If teams all move because of not getting the money for stadiums, and Ralph got that, why would he ever move?  How many owners have, after getting a new or renovated stadium, "meh, I'm moving....somewhere...because I want to?".   Like the overwhelming majority of his colleagues throughout his career, Ralph gets no credit for "not moving the team" when it made absolutely no sense to do so.

[Mango]

2 hours ago, plenzmd1 said:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/29/chesapeake-energy-fracking-pioneer-files-for-bankruptcy-owing-9bn

 

Just of note, more debt than Exxon and Chevron combined.

 

Chesapeake has been rough for years, especially since Aubrey Mclendon died/got charged. They have laid off something like 1000 employees over the last 5 years or so. This is not really new. And coming out of this with only 200 layoffs is actually pretty good for them these days. It was a shame, I have met Aubrey, he always came across as genuine and caring. His philanthropy towards the olympic training center is the reason it existed in OKC. Folks like Devon, Sandridge, OG&E, etc. didn't want to be left in the dust. But that is a different story. 

[GG]

Putting this here as well. 

 

Further proof that PSE financial condition is a mess.  Always bad news when you fire your top finance guy, but don't immediately name a replacement.

 

Chuck LaMattina out as executive VP of finance at Pegula Sports and Entertainment

[stuvian]

meanwhile the fapping industry stays strong

[Mike in Horseheads]

Seriously this should be moved to OTW or......  PPP

[inkman]

On 6/22/2020 at 1:46 PM, boater said:

And sold Sabres = Sabres moving out of town. Just watch.

But why?

[Mr. WEO]

They are reorganizing with a “goal of becoming viable”..

 

yikes.

 

....and reported by “Trainwreck Sports“ lol