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Fracking industry projected to have $300B in losses

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On 6/22/2020 at 9:09 AM, Southtown Tommy said:

During times of pricing volatility within the oil & gas sector, it is much easier for companies with no debt to survive, meaning the Pegulas can layoff their workers, cut capital expenditures, cut SG&A, etc., to conserve cash and retain liquidity.  If their oil & gas companies have no debt as been reported, then they will survive a downturn. Think of it like losing your job, but your house is paid for, you have no other debt, and a million dollars in your bank account. You have enough money to buy groceries and pay your utilities until you find another job.

 

Don't talk about me like that!

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34 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Given how bad the Sabres have been for the past 9 seasons, starting over might be a good idea.

 

It wasnt just the scouting staff and a few assistant GMs though.

 

With the part time employees, they were dragging their feet, moreso than their peers.  There were mass firings of other Sabres' business executives previous to this.  It is a stark departure from the Pegulas for the last NHL lockout where they kept everyone employed and invented a "Sabres University" thing where everyone learned different jobs and functions.  It was great PR and in terms of someone with several Billion dollars, it was theoretically peanuts.  There was the story of the strange meetings back in January and the "preserve lifestyle" bizarre thing.  There also has not been any moves to try to open up their restaurants downtown.  

 

They also tried to carve a pound of flesh out of season ticket holders.  Much beyond the little % increase they always get away with and blame on qualifying for revenue sharing.  My season tickets went up 10% and I was forced to dump them (plus I have grown to hate the organization).  I believe they are ignorant to the fact that people will bail en masse.  

 

It just 'feels' like there is some sort of cash crunch going on with the Pegulas.  I hope not, I really do.  It doesnt feel right though, and honestly, they appear to be the dumbest billionaires I have ever seen, they came on the scene and it was like Brewster's Billions since 2010.   I fear where they might have had their assets tied into.

 

 

I flip flop back and forth between it is obviously nothing, and the One Buffalo sky is falling.  It is undeniable how much they have destroyed the Sabres' franchise though  

 

 

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14 hours ago, Doc said:

 

I don't see it.  Terry loves them.

 

 

He also sold the Ohio and West Virginia assets to American Energy Partners, LP for $1.75 billion in 2014.  That's $6.45B.

He had a partner, he had to pay taxes......his number, still large is likely less than half of that.  Taxes alone likely cost him 45%, between federal and state taxes.

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3 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

 

It wasnt just the scouting staff and a few assistant GMs though.

 

With the part time employees, they were dragging their feet, moreso than their peers.  There were mass firings of other Sabres' business executives previous to this.  It is a stark departure from the Pegulas for the last NHL lockout where they kept everyone employed and invented a "Sabres University" thing where everyone learned different jobs and functions.  It was great PR and in terms of someone with several Billion dollars, it was theoretically peanuts.  There was the story of the strange meetings back in January and the "preserve lifestyle" bizarre thing.  There also has not been any moves to try to open up their restaurants downtown.  

 

They also tried to carve a pound of flesh out of season ticket holders.  Much beyond the little % increase they always get away with and blame on qualifying for revenue sharing.  My season tickets went up 10% and I was forced to dump them (plus I have grown to hate the organization).  I believe they are ignorant to the fact that people will bail en masse.  

 

It just 'feels' like there is some sort of cash crunch going on with the Pegulas.  I hope not, I really do.  It doesnt feel right though, and honestly, they appear to be the dumbest billionaires I have ever seen, they came on the scene and it was like Brewster's Billions since 2010.   I fear where they might have had their assets tied into.

 

 

I flip flop back and forth between it is obviously nothing, and the One Buffalo sky is falling.  It is undeniable how much they have destroyed the Sabres' franchise though  

 

 

What's so surprising about the Pegulas having a cash crunch in a world-wide pandemic health crisis that has crushed a number of business sectors? You don't think that other hockey franchise owners are not or soon will not  be dealing with tremendous financial stresses because of this unexpected health calamity? Why do you think that the league is going to great lengths to put on a post shut-down playoff system in the midst of an uncontained epidemic? It's trying to salvage a fraction of the revenue that has been lost because of the public health issue that is affecting all sports, pro and college. 

 

What you are doing is isolating what is happening with the Sabres without considering the context for not only the NHL but for all sports and businesses. What was the normal business environment for hockey yesterday doesn't exist now and very likely will not exist for the next year, and maybe even beyond. The expected normal money stream has been dramatically cut off. What other than what they are doing in tightening their belts do you suggest that they should be doing? Magic and wishful thinking don't work in the real world of hard currency. 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

It wasnt just the scouting staff and a few assistant GMs though.

 

With the part time employees, they were dragging their feet, moreso than their peers.  There were mass firings of other Sabres' business executives previous to this.  It is a stark departure from the Pegulas for the last NHL lockout where they kept everyone employed and invented a "Sabres University" thing where everyone learned different jobs and functions.  It was great PR and in terms of someone with several Billion dollars, it was theoretically peanuts.  There was the story of the strange meetings back in January and the "preserve lifestyle" bizarre thing.  There also has not been any moves to try to open up their restaurants downtown.  

 

They also tried to carve a pound of flesh out of season ticket holders.  Much beyond the little % increase they always get away with and blame on qualifying for revenue sharing.  My season tickets went up 10% and I was forced to dump them (plus I have grown to hate the organization).  I believe they are ignorant to the fact that people will bail en masse.  

 

It just 'feels' like there is some sort of cash crunch going on with the Pegulas.  I hope not, I really do.  It doesnt feel right though, and honestly, they appear to be the dumbest billionaires I have ever seen, they came on the scene and it was like Brewster's Billions since 2010.   I fear where they might have had their assets tied into.

 

 

I flip flop back and forth between it is obviously nothing, and the One Buffalo sky is falling.  It is undeniable how much they have destroyed the Sabres' franchise though 

 

The NHL derives the majority of its revenue from ticket sales.  That's going to lead to a massive loss for all NHL teams, not just the Sabres.  If networks ask for money back (assuming they were paid upfront) from unplayed/televised games...

 

Again I don't know what the problem with the Sabres is.  Terry spends tons of money on the team (contrast that with people complaining about Ralph being cheap).  He's hired coaches and GMs that were considered good ones.  The team has led the NHL in points at one point in each of the past 2 seasons...only to miss the playoffs.   

 

And again, if it's him, then I'd be fine with him selling and focusing on the Bills, where he's done a good job.  But I'd need assurances the team will stay.  In absence of it, I'll take him.

 

19 minutes ago, bigK14094 said:

He had a partner, he had to pay taxes......his number, still large is likely less than half of that.  Taxes alone likely cost him 45%, between federal and state taxes.

 

True.  But as per Forbes, he's currently worth $5.1B and the value of the teams, on which he has no debt, is nowhere near that amount.

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On 6/22/2020 at 10:30 AM, Don Otreply said:

The Pegulas stated a short while ago they carry no debt on their business, nothing for us to worry about.  That loss is on potential new business, not current assets. Get yourself a beer and relax...

 

Fat chance of that with all the TSW business mavens with too much time on their hands, now that there are no high profile meetings to attend...

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On 6/22/2020 at 9:09 AM, Southtown Tommy said:

During times of pricing volatility within the oil & gas sector, it is much easier for companies with no debt to survive, meaning the Pegulas can layoff their workers, cut capital expenditures, cut SG&A, etc., to conserve cash and retain liquidity.  If their oil & gas companies have no debt as been reported, then they will survive a downturn. Think of it like losing your job, but your house is paid for, you have no other debt, and a million dollars in your bank account. You have enough money to buy groceries and pay your utilities until you find another job.

This exactly, I will also add that the $300 million loss is temporary. Fracking is still the largest source of natural gas nationally at 67% and the primary function of his energy company. The losses will be related mostly to COVID and come this time next year profits will be back up where they have been or higher.

23 hours ago, CBennett said:

what did the Pegulas have their cashed in $$ IN at the time(other than Bills Sabres in talking what kind of investments is my point..and how big a hit did they take?

 Like most of the very wealthy, their money is probably tied up in huge purchases of gold and silver which very rarely make huge jumps or slides in value. This is why and how the wealthy STAY wealthy. 

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I don't know how much active drilling they do. They paid cash for both teams, have no stadium debt and are appear to be in largely liquid position with cash. Unless they have grossly mismanaged investments, I can't see them taking a huge hit. 

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2 hours ago, bigK14094 said:

He had a partner, he had to pay taxes......his number, still large is likely less than half of that.  Taxes alone likely cost him 45%, between federal and state taxes.

 

thank god you're not an accountant.  if you think he paid 45 percent in taxes i've got a bridge to sell you.  

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, JohnC said:

What's so surprising about the Pegulas having a cash crunch in a world-wide pandemic health crisis that has crushed a number of business sectors? You don't think that other hockey franchise owners are not or soon will not  be dealing with tremendous financial stresses because of this unexpected health calamity? Why do you think that the league is going to great lengths to put on a post shut-down playoff system in the midst of an uncontained epidemic? It's trying to salvage a fraction of the revenue that has been lost because of the public health issue that is affecting all sports, pro and college. 

 

What you are doing is isolating what is happening with the Sabres without considering the context for not only the NHL but for all sports and businesses. What was the normal business environment for hockey yesterday doesn't exist now and very likely will not exist for the next year, and maybe even beyond. The expected normal money stream has been dramatically cut off. What other than what they are doing in tightening their belts do you suggest that they should be doing? Magic and wishful thinking don't work in the real world of hard currency. 

 

 

 

I do agree, and I go back and forth on my concern.  If I had to wager my own money on it at even odds, I would definitely bet the Pegulas are/will be just fine.

 

I am yet to see (or at least be made aware of) another professional sports team gutting itself like the Sabres have.  I could be convinced that it is imminent for many, but it has not happened yet.

Edited by May Day 10

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4 hours ago, First Round Bust said:

fracking is illegal in NY state but natural gas fracked from Penn is sent to NY so kind of hypocritical ?

 

 

Not much difference than child labor being illegal in US but sneakers and other sportswear being produced in sweatshops overseas.

 

Only when an item because truly horrified and comes from small area like blood diamonds does it go to being producible in one place but not another but become okay to import it for local consumption.

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55 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

 

I do agree, and I go back and forth on my concern.

 

I am yet to see (or at least be made aware of) another professional sports team gutting itself like the Sabres have.  I could be convinced that it is imminent for many, but it has not happened yet.

I disagree with your characterization that it is being gutted. The coaching staff in Rochester will be replaced. It might not be right away because it is still up in the air when the AHL will start. Without a question the scouting department is being thinned out but that doesn't mean that the scouting function won't still exist. There will be more reliance on video, scouting services and the remaining staff in that department. The Pegulas did what many large enterprises do: They had an outsider do a review. What was determined was that there were scouts who weren't sufficiently out in the field and issuing useful reports. Or another way of saying this is the production didn't match the cost. There is nothing unreasonable with doing a company analysis and then acting on the report. 

 

Adams is the new GM. So it shouldn't be surprising that he is going to bring in his own staff. The advantage he has is that there is no rush because of the unusual pandemic schedule that has stretched things out and given him more time to make staffing decisions. 

 

As far as the debate over what many people characterize as the austerity strategy I really don't give a damnation. For at least the short term this organizational reshuffle doesn't matter much. What matters the most are the hockey decisions regarding what players to keep and what players to let go and what players to bring in. That's where the attention should be. 

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4 hours ago, bigK14094 said:

He had a partner, he had to pay taxes......his number, still large is likely less than half of that.  Taxes alone likely cost him 45%, between federal and state taxes.

 

1 hour ago, BigPappy said:

 

 Like most of the very wealthy, their money is probably tied up in huge purchases of gold and silver which very rarely make huge jumps or slides in value. This is why and how the wealthy STAY wealthy. 

 

 

LOL...WTF??

 

This place...

 

Anyway, I'm not sure why many are saying Pegula's business is "debt free".  I doubt he paid cash to build Harborcenter/ hotel, etc (why would he?).  Plus he spent for upgrades at KeyBank.  Those are all hemorrhaging cash, no doubt.  But he's personally in no financial danger.

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2 hours ago, BigPappy said:

This exactly, I will also add that the $300 million loss is temporary. Fracking is still the largest source of natural gas nationally at 67% and the primary function of his energy company. The losses will be related mostly to COVID and come this time next year profits will be back up where they have been or higher.

 Like most of the very wealthy, their money is probably tied up in huge purchases of gold and silver which very rarely make huge jumps or slides in value. This is why and how the wealthy STAY wealthy. 

 

Fracking has not been profitable for many years.   

 

https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/will-fracking-industry-debts-set-off-financial-tremors/

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-shale-outlook/u-s-shale-producers-to-tap-brakes-in-2020-after-years-of-rapid-growth-idUSKBN1Z108U

 

Both articles are from well before the COV-19 impact on oil prices.   

 

The Pegulas were very smart (or lucky) to sell when they did.

 

The Sabres payroll was the fifth highest in the NHL.  It makes sense that if things aren't working, you don't continue doing it.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

 

They sold the majority of their fracking business in 2014.  

 

But lets not let the facts interfere in the discussion.  ;)  ;)  :LOL: :LOL: 

 

 That was my understanding as well...Thank You

Edited by first_and_ten

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Question: IF Pegula is forced to sell the Sabres due to the downturn in the oil and gas industry does THAT mean he will ALSO have to sell the Bills per NFL by laws?!?!?!

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1 minute ago, Jauronimo said:

Question: IF Pegula is forced to sell the Sabres due to the downturn in the oil and gas industry does THAT mean he will ALSO have to sell the Bills per NFL by laws?!?!?!

 

That makes no sense.

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2 minutes ago, first_and_ten said:

 

That makes no sense.

Maybe you weren't around when El Pegual bought the Bills but there was a lot of discussion about whether you could own 2 sports franchises in the same city and NFL bylaws have an all or none provision.

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