There should be a national dialogue in getting back to work

[unbillievable]

28 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  Months of social distancing will be the death of quite a number of businesses including retail stores and restaurants.  

I don't see movie theaters recovering either.

 

 

[Deranged Rhino]

2 minutes ago, unbillievable said:

I don't see movie theaters recovering either.

 

They were already dying too. This is a major issue for the industry.

[Magox]

1 minute ago, Boatdrinks said:

I still haven’t heard anyone who says we need more testing explain exactly how it would be done ,what they’d like to accomplish with it, and how it would be implemented. Seems to be a red herring...

 

The Taskforce including Fauci and Birx have already said that there is enough testing for phase 1 but Fauci doesn't believe there is enough for beyond that.   The argument that some medical experts make is that there has to be enough testing for anyone who wants one and to test asymptomatic people.  Not sure how you test the asymptomatic people especially if they don't know that they are infected.  

 

I would imagine pretty soon the total number of newly infected people will plummet.  That's my hunch.   And once that number is at a much lower baseline it will be much easier to test everyone who requests one.   I would think as long as they have enough to test everyone who requests one and all medical providers and people at highest risk such as nursing homes, that should be enough.   Right now they are conducting about 200k a day and my guess is that by the time July rolls around that capacity will be close to 400k tests a day.

 

Another way that they can make a determination of infection rates are the percentage of people testing positive on the tests being conducted.  It's not a perfect science but it's a pretty good indicator.  Like in NY, over 25% of the tests that are being conducted people are testing positive.  Whereas where I live in Brevard county, a county of 600k people residents have had 235 people who have tested positive with 6300 tests conducted.   Which is less than 4% of the people who have had a test conducted tested positive. 

 

What I'm saying is that the lower the percentage of people who have had tests done are testing positive that strongly implies that there are less people infected per capita.

 

These states that are balking based on not enough testing can also use this as a data point.

[Rob's House]

This prolonged and seemingly perpetual shutdown has become irresponsible and inhumane.

 

The Uber sanctimonious crowd demanding strict compliance with these absurd lockdown orders are the worst humans among us. As a hunch, most of them are not deeply affected, being either independently wealthy, still employed, or living on a government check. I seriously doubt many of them are watching their life's work burn before their eyes.

 

Their plan, to the extent they have one, seems to be to live in seclusion until the end of time or discovery of miracle cure, whichever comes first. The latter may well come, but it's entirely likely that it doesn't.

 

As per usual, those who believe they stand on insurmountable moral high ground are most often in the moral basement. Unwillingness to face hard decisions is not a virtue.

 

I kind of understand wrt unavoidably crowded venues like theaters, arenas, and airplanes, but ~70% of what's shutdown should be reopened yesterday. We all know what precautions to take. We're going to Walmart and Home Depot without a problem. Why can't we go to department stores and restaurants?Why can't we get a goddamn haircut? Why are the bowling alleys, golf courses, and parks off limits?

 

We all know to keep our distance and take reasonable precautions. This is no longer necessary.

 

And to the self-aggrandizing douchebag who asks in his cucked out whiney voice "would you let someone die just to avoid national financial devastation," I'll tell you what I really think. Motherfuker, I would watch you die for a Big Mac.

[Tiberius]

9 minutes ago, Rob's House said:

This prolonged and seemingly perpetual shutdown has become irresponsible and inhumane.

 

The Uber sanctimonious crowd demanding strict compliance with these absurd lockdown orders are the worst humans among us. As a hunch, most of them are not deeply affected, being either independently wealthy, still employed, or living on a government check. I seriously doubt many of them are watching their life's work burn before their eyes.

 

Their plan, to the extent they have one, seems to be to live in seclusion until the end of time or discovery of miracle cure, whichever comes first. The latter may well come, but it's entirely likely that it doesn't.

 

As per usual, those who believe they stand on insurmountable moral high ground are most often in the moral basement. Unwillingness to face hard decisions is not a virtue.

 

I kind of understand wrt unavoidably crowded venues like theaters, arenas, and airplanes, but ~70% of what's shutdown should be reopened yesterday. We all know what precautions to take. We're going to Walmart and Home Depot without a problem. Why can't we go to department stores and restaurants?Why can't we get a goddamn haircut? Why are the bowling alleys, golf courses, and parks off limits?

 

We all know to keep our distance and take reasonable precautions. This is no longer necessary.

 

And to the self-aggrandizing douchebag who asks in his cucked out whiney voice "would you let someone die just to avoid national financial devastation," I'll tell you what I really think. Motherfuker, I would watch you die for a Big Mac.

“And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out, in a minute. Is there a way we can do something like that? By injection, inside, or almost a cleaning, because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. So it would be interesting to check that. You’re going to have to use medical doctors, right? But it sounds interesting to me.”

[B-Man]

 

 

Aaahhhh.  Partial quotes, the sign of desperation.

 

 

 

Meanwhile, back at the thread..........

 

Vermont gives greenlight to work crews under 5

MONTPELIER, Vt. (WCAX) Vermont Governor Phil Scott Friday further loosened stay-at-home restrictions by allowing small work crews with less than five people to return to work.

 

 

As of Friday, Vermont health officials reported 827 coronavirus cases in the state and 44 deaths. Vermont officials say there is now "no room for doubt" that the state reached its peak and that the number of new cases allows for more people to go back to work as long as they follow strict guidelines.

 

Friday's order allows small crews of under five workers can do outdoor work or work in unoccupied spaces. Manufacturing can resume with a maximum of five employees if they can keep workers six-feet apart. Outdoor retail facilities like garden centers can open, but no more than ten people including customers or staff are permitted at a time.

 

 

https://www.wcax.com/content/news/Who-gets-to-go-to-work-next-Scott-expected-to-turn-spigot-Friday-569900381.html

[ALF]

16 minutes ago, Rob's House said:

This prolonged and seemingly perpetual shutdown has become irresponsible and inhumane.

 

The Uber sanctimonious crowd demanding strict compliance with these absurd lockdown orders are the worst humans among us. As a hunch, most of them are not deeply affected, being either independently wealthy, still employed, or living on a government check. I seriously doubt many of them are watching their life's work burn before their eyes.

 

Their plan, to the extent they have one, seems to be to live in seclusion until the end of time or discovery of miracle cure, whichever comes first. The latter may well come, but it's entirely likely that it doesn't.

 

As per usual, those who believe they stand on insurmountable moral high ground are most often in the moral basement. Unwillingness to face hard decisions is not a virtue.

 

I kind of understand wrt unavoidably crowded venues like theaters, arenas, and airplanes, but ~70% of what's shutdown should be reopened yesterday. We all know what precautions to take. We're going to Walmart and Home Depot without a problem. Why can't we go to department stores and restaurants?Why can't we get a goddamn haircut? Why are the bowling alleys, golf courses, and parks off limits?

 

We all know to keep our distance and take reasonable precautions. This is no longer necessary.

 

And to the self-aggrandizing douchebag who asks in his cucked out whiney voice "would you let someone die just to avoid national financial devastation," I'll tell you what I really think. Motherfuker, I would watch you die for a Big Mac.

 

26 Governors  are republican , Trump should be able to convince them to end most of the shutdown ?

[RochesterRob]

24 minutes ago, ALF said:

 

26 Governors  are republican , Trump should be able to convince them to end most of the shutdown ?

  How are they going to end the shutdown in NY?  In Michigan?

[B-Man]

 

 

[Rob's House]

8 minutes ago, ALF said:

 

26 Governors  are republican , Trump should be able to convince them to end most of the shutdown ?

 

I'm tired of people obsessing over politics through this. It really illustrates the extent to which our political affiliations are the irrational product of a primal instinct that served us well in primitive times, but has not evolved as fast as society has and is now greatly detrimental.

 

Politics is supposed to be about selecting the people and policies with the goal of achieving the best outcomes. Now it's reversed and seems the goal is to "win" regardless of outcome.

 

We're dealing with a serious threat to life and prosperity, both short and long term, on a scale not seen in generations, and far too many people are more concerned with how it will affect a political party that doesn't give a sh|t if they live or die.

[ALF]

42 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  How are they going to end the shutdown in NY?  In Michigan?

 

  The fear for both parties is not to overwhelm the hospital systems.  No way the shutdown can end in hotspots. I agree it could be loosened in less affected areas.  Even in sparse states meat packing plants are being hit hard.  They don't have a handle on this yet.

[Tiberius]

50 minutes ago, Rob's House said:

 

I'm tired of people obsessing over politics through this. It really illustrates the extent to which our political affiliations are the irrational product of a primal instinct that served us well in primitive times, but has not evolved as fast as society has and is now greatly detrimental.

 

Politics is supposed to be about selecting the people and policies with the goal of achieving the best outcomes. Now it's reversed and seems the goal is to "win" regardless of outcome.

 

We're dealing with a serious threat to life and prosperity, both short and long term, on a scale not seen in generations, and far too many people are more concerned with how it will affect a political party that doesn't give a sh|t if they live or die.

Welcome to Trump world. So you must be pissed is trying to appease his [political base by killing Obamacare in the courts during a pandemic. 

 

I know, I know, that's really different 

 

 

[shoshin]

15 hours ago, ALF said:

 

  The fear for both parties is not to overwhelm the hospital systems.  No way the shutdown can end in hotspots. I agree it could be loosened in less affected areas.  Even in sparse states meat packing plants are being hit hard.  They don't have a handle on this yet.

Overwhelming the healthcare system is really the thing to watch closely. There are not a lot of good national stats on this but governors should have good regional data. My wife’s healthcare system shares that info internally but widely daily. Zero downwards trend for Covid cases or beds in a system that is shut down for all non-essential surgery. 
 

The curve flattened and that was the goal. Outside of NYC Metro, the cases may be as high as 5%, which means we have a long ways to go. A slow and phased reopening like the Trump guidelines that almost no one seems interested in following guarantees that curve stays flat (flat does not mean cases go to zero...it means cases remain but are manageable) and we can reopen. 

Edited April 25, 2020 by shoshin

[RochesterRob]

16 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Welcome to Trump world. So you must be pissed is trying to appease his [political base by killing Obamacare in the courts during a pandemic. 

 

I know, I know, that's really different 

 

 

  Your lack of worldliness is astonishing.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

...a word of caution from M&T Bank..........

 

Business email compromise attempts are increasing.

Fraudsters are using COVID-19 disruptions to infiltrate businesses. They are taking advantage of the changed work circumstances and have increased the amount of Business Email Compromise (BEC) attempts. This is happening with both payroll impersonation and vendor impersonation. In Business Email Compromise, fraudsters use readily available digital sources to identify the names of core executives or vendors and then target a victim within the company who manages finances. They then create a fraudulent email to trick the victim into initiating an ACH or Wire payment. We recommend following the practices below to minimize the risk of falling victim to BEC:

• Verify any account number changes – any time an employee or vendor sends an email or submits a request changing their account number information, reach out directly to that employee or vendor to confirm the changes using existing contact information. Do not use the contact information submitted with the request. A best practice in this situation is to use a previously known phone number and call directly to verify any changes • Payment instructions received via email – if an email is received requesting the initiation of a Wire or ACH payment, confirm the payment instructions with the requestor prior to initiating the transaction. Do not reply to the email request to confirm the instructions. Reach out via another communication method, i.e., separate email or phone call, to confirm the payment instructions • Update contact information – with many employees working remotely, standard contact information may not be correct, and M&T may have trouble contacting the appropriate parties to verify payment information. Customers can update their contact information under the Administration sections of Web InfoPLU$ and Treasury Center. For M&T BizPay users, please contact 1-800-724-2240 to update Administrator contact information

If you would like more fraud prevention tips, please visit M&T Resources and Insights.

[3rdnlng]

8 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

...a word of caution from M&T Bank..........

 

Business email compromise attempts are increasing.

Fraudsters are using COVID-19 disruptions to infiltrate businesses. They are taking advantage of the changed work circumstances and have increased the amount of Business Email Compromise (BEC) attempts. This is happening with both payroll impersonation and vendor impersonation. In Business Email Compromise, fraudsters use readily available digital sources to identify the names of core executives or vendors and then target a victim within the company who manages finances. They then create a fraudulent email to trick the victim into initiating an ACH or Wire payment. We recommend following the practices below to minimize the risk of falling victim to BEC:

• Verify any account number changes – any time an employee or vendor sends an email or submits a request changing their account number information, reach out directly to that employee or vendor to confirm the changes using existing contact information. Do not use the contact information submitted with the request. A best practice in this situation is to use a previously known phone number and call directly to verify any changes • Payment instructions received via email – if an email is received requesting the initiation of a Wire or ACH payment, confirm the payment instructions with the requestor prior to initiating the transaction. Do not reply to the email request to confirm the instructions. Reach out via another communication method, i.e., separate email or phone call, to confirm the payment instructions • Update contact information – with many employees working remotely, standard contact information may not be correct, and M&T may have trouble contacting the appropriate parties to verify payment information. Customers can update their contact information under the Administration sections of Web InfoPLU$ and Treasury Center. For M&T BizPay users, please contact 1-800-724-2240 to update Administrator contact information

If you would like more fraud prevention tips, please visit M&T Resources and Insights.

Well run con job. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

1 minute ago, 3rdnlng said:

Well run con job. 

 

...don't follow....that is the M&T phone number for administration matters.....and you have to go through a stringent "..name...rank....and serial number.." steps before they'll talk to you.....I haven't had to do it in awhile (corporately), but I'd bet it is even MORE stringent now......

[3rdnlng]

10 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...don't follow....that is the M&T phone number for administration matters.....and you have to go through a stringent "..name...rank....and serial number.." steps before they'll talk to you.....I haven't had to do it in awhile (corporately), but I'd bet it is even MORE stringent now......

You've been working too hard lately. I was being sarcastic. Don't you think it's funny that you warn of using any phone numbers provided you from a post or email but then post a number? And seriously, I thought a while back that in your position and with the different rules by each state, plus multiple unions you must be pulling your hair out trying to keep things running. Good luck. 

[Bockeye]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-bearer-of-good-coronavirus-news-11587746176?emailToken=e98cb2d305bcc6e4c0c210e17eae132cJG0ZjF+EmOkjTKVGt+lcsuO/RiQLe4Twz87Vep17dSxx0ojfTYKkfylRrZAaC2pkr09cAWrCFvd6zEnql5p4kA%3D%3D&reflink=article_copyURL_share
 

But sci­en­tists are al­most never unan­i-mous, and many ap­peals to “sci­ence” are trans­par­ently po­lit­i­cal or ide­o­log­i-cal. Con­sider the story of John Ioan­ni-dis, a pro­fes­sor at Stan­ford’s School of Med­i­cine. His ex­per-tise is wide-rang­ing—he jug­gles ap­pointments in sta­tistics, bio­medical data, pre­ven­tion re­search and health re­search and pol­icy. Google Scholar ranks him the world’s 100 most-cited sci­entists. He has pub­lished more than 1,000 papers, many of them meta-analy­ses—re-views of other studies. Yet he’s now found him­self pill­oried be­cause he dissents from the the­ories be­hind the lock-downs—be­cause he’s looked at the data and found good news.

 

Dr. Ioan­ni­dis es­ti­mated that the U.S. fa­tal­ity rate could be as low as 0.025% to 0.625% and put the up­per bound at 0.05% to 1%—com­pa­ra­ble to that of sea­sonal flu.  “If that is the true rate,” he wrote, “lock-ing down the world with po­ten­tially tremen­dous so­cial and fi­nan­cial con­se-quences may be to­tally ir­ra­tional. It’s like an ele­phant be­ing at­tacked by a house cat. Frus-trated and try­ing to avoid the cat, the ele­phant ac­ci­den-tally jumps off a cliff and dies.”

[SoCal Deek]

It’s time for a new Task Force. This first group  were quick to ‘shut it all down’ and to ‘flatten the curve’...but they need new voices in there now. Fauchi and Birx are both nice people but they have ZERO ideas on where to go now or what to do next. Time to go to the bilullpen!

[mead107]

Why go back to work? WHO says you can get it a second time. 

[Deranged Rhino]

https://mobile.twitter.com/Peoples_Pundit/status/1254075825491673089

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

2 hours ago, 3rdnlng said:

You've been working too hard lately. I was being sarcastic. Don't you think it's funny that you warn of using any phone numbers provided you from a post or email but then post a number? And seriously, I thought a while back that in your position and with the different rules by each state, plus multiple unions you must be pulling your hair out trying to keep things running. Good luck. 

 

......LMAO....busted by my bud......NOT pulling my hair out...found a new one on top and went to Home Depot for Miracle-Gro......and GREAT memory about multiple Unions....final SBA PPP regs are now supplemented with 31 addendums, with #31 coming out yesterday and more to follow......I must be a masochist to have not taken SS on April9 when I turned 67.....can't fix stupid......

[Buffalo_Gal]

11 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

 

That is a lotta jobs lost.

 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

22 hours ago, B-Man said:

 

 

Aaahhhh.  Partial quotes, the sign of desperation.

 

 

 

Meanwhile, back at the thread..........

 

Vermont gives greenlight to work crews under 5

MONTPELIER, Vt. (WCAX) Vermont Governor Phil Scott Friday further loosened stay-at-home restrictions by allowing small work crews with less than five people to return to work.

 

 

As of Friday, Vermont health officials reported 827 coronavirus cases in the state and 44 deaths. Vermont officials say there is now "no room for doubt" that the state reached its peak and that the number of new cases allows for more people to go back to work as long as they follow strict guidelines.

 

Friday's order allows small crews of under five workers can do outdoor work or work in unoccupied spaces. Manufacturing can resume with a maximum of five employees if they can keep workers six-feet apart. Outdoor retail facilities like garden centers can open, but no more than ten people including customers or staff are permitted at a time.

 

 

https://www.wcax.com/content/news/Who-gets-to-go-to-work-next-Scott-expected-to-turn-spigot-Friday-569900381.html

 

...so for the NYSDOT, that means four guys watching with one guy working......our tax dollars at work.......

[Koko78]

16 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...so for the NYSDOT, that means four guys watching with one guy working......our tax dollars at work.......

 

I, for one, am glad that there are 4 supervisors being paid to watch at all times, to make sure that the one worker is putting in his 3 hours of work per day.

 

Gotta prevent that waste!

[B-Man]

BUT BECAUSE OF VOTE-BY-FRAUD-MAIL COLORADO ISN’T: 

 

 Oklahoma governor announces businesses to reopen Friday.

 

 

 

.

 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

9 minutes ago, Koko78 said:

 

I, for one, am glad that there are 4 supervisors being paid to watch at all times, to make sure that the one worker is putting in his 3 hours of work per day.

 

Gotta prevent that waste!

 

...you're hired!!.....a grisly attorney now in charge....uh oh..................

[Boatdrinks]

53 minutes ago, B-Man said:

BUT BECAUSE OF VOTE-BY-FRAUD-MAIL COLORADO ISN’T: 

 

 Oklahoma governor announces businesses to reopen Friday.

 

 

 

.

 

Of course not ! Cuomo ( even in blue to the core NYS) made sure to send out mail in ballots to registered voters. November will not be safe ! 

[Deranged Rhino]

 

Two years? 

 

Virginia, time to let governor blackface/klan-robes know you're not going to take that *****.

[Boatdrinks]

1 hour ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

That is a lotta jobs lost.

 

This is a fair and just societal trade-off . Imagine how many lives we could save if many more people worked from home, others received unemployment to stay home ...  perpetually ( not everyone can have an “ essential job” after all) stores were online order and pick up only , and all restaurants were take out only. And we left stay at home orders in place  ! If we did this continually , deaths of all kinds would go down substantially. 

16 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

Two years? 

 

Virginia, time to let governor blackface/klan-robes know you're not going to take that *****.

Two years ! WTF ! Madness, sheer madness. Health officials are not economists. They will also continue to be employed. That’s the problem ; health officials will say it won’t be safe forever and we should stay locked down to avoid CoVid 19. That’s not realistic though for a society, but they’re only focus is avoiding CoVid 19. It’s just not real life. People will die from things we don’t have vaccines or treatments for. It’s like saying we should all stay inside forever to cut down on skin cancer deaths. 

Edited April 25, 2020 by Boatdrinks

[shoshin]

6 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

It’s time for a new Task Force. This first group  were quick to ‘shut it all down’ and to ‘flatten the curve’...but they need new voices in there now. Fauchi and Birx are both nice people but they have ZERO ideas on where to go now or what to do next. Time to go to the bilullpen!

The guidelines are out there. No one seems to be following them. 

[B-Man]

 

 

MEDIA CRITICISM OF GOVERNOR KEMP FOR REOPENING GEORGIA IS DISHONEST AND HYPOCRITICAL:

 

“It is even more outrageous to watch the press completely disregard the specific guidance in Kemp’s order.

 

Then you can add blatant hypocrisy of the coverage when you review the announcement from Colorado’s Democrat governor, Jared Polis. I

 

t is infuriating. According to the Denver Post, Governor Polis has given his plan a catchy name, Safer at Home. Maybe that is the difference. However, the fundamentals are pretty similar, right down to tattoo parlors.”

 

It’s different when they do it, somehow.

 

[SoCal Deek]

49 minutes ago, shoshin said:

The guidelines are out there. No one seems to be following them. 

Maybe because they’re crap.

[shoshin]

49 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Maybe because they’re crap.

Are you going support that or just leave it there without facts?
 

Most of the closed states could enter phase 1 under those guidelines now (except maybe the larger cities) but remain closed or have much more stringent requirements in place for opening. I prefer the Trump guidelines over any plan I’ve seen from a state. If states would follow the guidelines, they could be opening their economies, albeit carefully. 
 

Edited April 25, 2020 by shoshin

[SoCal Deek]

28 minutes ago, shoshin said:

Are you going support that or just leave it there without facts?
 

Most of the closed dates could enter phase 1 under those guidelines now (except maybe the larger cities) but remain closed or have much more stringent requirements in place for opening. I prefer the Trump guidelines over any plan I’ve seen from a state. If states would follow the guidelines, they could be opening their economies, albeit carefully. 
 

I’m going to leave it there. I’m done with this. 

[Q-baby!]

22 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’m going to leave it there. I’m done with this. 

???

[B-Man]

 

 

 

TYLER COWEN: How things are, in a few short words. Quotable:

If we keep the economy closed at current levels, it will continue to decay, and at some point turn into irreversible, non-linear damage. No one knows when, or how to model the course of that process. That decay also will eat into our future public health capacities, and perhaps boost hunger and poverty around the world.

 

If we keep people locked up at current levels, fewer of them will be exposed to the virus, and in the meantime we can develop better treatments, and also improve test and trace capabilities. No one knows how quickly those improvements will come, or how to model the course of that process, or how much net good they will do.

 

The relative pace of those two processes should determine our best course of action. No one knows the relative pace of either of those two processes. Yet commentators pretend to be increasingly knowledgeable, moralizing based on the pretense of knowledge they do not have.

 

 

Indeed.

 

 

 

 

 

.

[Q-baby!]

28 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

 

TYLER COWEN: How things are, in a few short words. Quotable:

If we keep the economy closed at current levels, it will continue to decay, and at some point turn into irreversible, non-linear damage. No one knows when, or how to model the course of that process. That decay also will eat into our future public health capacities, and perhaps boost hunger and poverty around the world.

 

If we keep people locked up at current levels, fewer of them will be exposed to the virus, and in the meantime we can develop better treatments, and also improve test and trace capabilities. No one knows how quickly those improvements will come, or how to model the course of that process, or how much net good they will do.

 

The relative pace of those two processes should determine our best course of action. No one knows the relative pace of either of those two processes. Yet commentators pretend to be increasingly knowledgeable, moralizing based on the pretense of knowledge they do not have.

 

 

Indeed.

 

 

 

 

 

.

Sounds awfully familiar?

[RiotAct]

12 hours ago, mead107 said:

Why go back to work? WHO says you can get it a second time. 

yep.  Shut it down... for life.