Anything less than winning the division next year is a failure

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

19 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

I think you miss the point on SF.   They built from the lines out; i.e. the o-line and d-line are where their resources went first, and that goes a long way toward helping your QB.  Jimmy G is not a superstar, he's ok.  If SF didn't have a very good o-line, no way they come close to the SB.

 

I don't think the key for the Bills is another QB.  They need to address the right side of the line and get a WR1 and RB, offensively.  They need to get an OLB, and DE this year on defense.

 

 

This is the best post in an otherwise completely dismal and depressing thread.

[HOUSE]

So, it only becomes a failure this year?

 

Wow, you guys are so understanding....

[BBills88]

Anything less than the playoffs and/or a Superbowl loss is a failure 

[Sweats]

Win the division and then still lose in the 1st round of the playoffs................check.

[youngjebrey]

Was checking the Vegas lines today and there was a shift in the lines for afc east champs. Pats went from -400 to -335 and Bills went from +450 to +400. Brady potentially leaving has Vegas worried just a little bit. 

[Happy]

2 hours ago, Billl said:

That doesn’t make them any less of an outlier.  SF two years ago was in a similar position to Buffalo in 2019, but JG got hurt and the season cratered.  They drafted Nick Bosa at 2 whereas Allen had a healthy season and will pick 26th.  The 26th pick last year was also a DE, but it was Montez Sweat instead of Bosa.  Then in the second round, they got Deebo.  
 

Do you think they make the Super Bowl by drafting Sweat and Paris Campbell instead of Bosa and Samuel?  I sure don’t.  If Buffalo drafts the next Bosa and Deebo, they're in the mix for a Super Bowl next year.

 

If drafting smart and making good FA acquisitions is an outlier, then I guess they are an outlier.  All you are doing is lowering the bar for all other teams, including the Bills.

 

You could be right regarding Bosa and Samuel.  But why stop there; how about Kittle, Mostert, and Juszczyk?  All big contributors on offense.  How about a strong offensive line?  Without that, no way Garappolo does anything.  The point is they made a complete overhaul of Chip Kelly's disaster in a two year timeframe.  It is possible to get to the SB within three years...outlier or not.

[jimmy10]

I think the great American poet V. A. “Nilla” Ice put it best when he said:

 

”Anything less than the best is a felony.”

[LSHMEAB]

15 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

SF may be considered an outlier by some only because few teams have a GM as good as John Lynch, or an offensive mind as good as Kyle Shanahan.  Game management-wise, Kyle is still learning, but that is beside the point.  McD and Beane need to step it up this year - beat NE, win the division, and be a legitimate SB contender.  I don't think they necessarily need to go to the SB, but they need to take a step forward.  Anything less is either status quo or a step back; either one and changes need to be made.  Can't accept platitudes in lieu of progress.

Right. I respect where Augie is coming from in terms of SF as an outlier, but the outliers are the best teams that eventually have a chance to play in and win Superbowls. These are the teams doing it better than the rest.

 

I'm very pleased with the progress the team has made, but I'm not complacent. My hope is that Beane and McDermott are "outliers."

 

We're gonna find out quite a bit this season.

14 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

My employer is hoping “better” but to them that just means “more”.

 

In addition to producing more,  everyday I am teaching the next generation how to do MY job, not someone else’s job. 

 

Daboll has been taught by BB and Sabin.  That’s as good as it gets in his business.  Yet, after years in the business, he still needs to be “managed up”?  And the guy who watched as Daboll iced the running game with a 3 score lead in a playoff game is the guy who is going to “manage up” Daboll? 
 

That makes little sense to me. 

 

 

Sadly, Bill Walsh is  no longer with us to mentor BD.

[Mr. WEO]

8 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

Right. I respect where Augie is coming from in terms of SF as an outlier, but the outliers are the best teams that eventually have a chance to play in and win Superbowls. These are the teams doing it better than the rest.

 

I'm very pleased with the progress the team has made, but I'm not complacent. My hope is that Beane and McDermott are "outliers."

 

We're gonna find out quite a bit this season.

Sadly, Bill Walsh is  no longer with us to mentor BD.

 

 

Maybe Jordan Palmer can help him....

[Happy]

1 hour ago, LSHMEAB said:

Right. I respect where Augie is coming from in terms of SF as an outlier, but the outliers are the best teams that eventually have a chance to play in and win Superbowls. These are the teams doing it better than the rest.

 

I'm very pleased with the progress the team has made, but I'm not complacent. My hope is that Beane and McDermott are "outliers."

 

We're gonna find out quite a bit this season.

 

I think we're going to find out quite a bit during FA and the draft.  What positions are they looking to upgrade and holes are they looking to fill?  What are they willing to roll with, as is?  SF turning over most of the 2016 roster in 2017, so Beane and McD can certainly upgrade multiple positions on both sides of the ball in the next several months.  I'd like to see them as outliers, but time will tell on that one.

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

I think we're going to find out quite a bit during FA and the draft.  What positions are they looking to upgrade and holes are they looking to fill?  What are they willing to roll with, as is?  SF turning over most of the 2016 roster in 2017, so Beane and McD can certainly upgrade multiple positions on both sides of the ball in the next several months.  I'd like to see them as outliers, but time will tell on that one.

What I expect is this:   No big-name free agents, but a lot of guys who will compete for jobs - oline, dline, all over the field.   Then more of the same in the draft.   I expect a lot of fans will be disappointed, because there won't be names like Allen, Edmunds and Oliver added, just really good football players. 

 

What I expect will happen is that there will be intense competition in camp and preseason, and the Bills will go into the season with 5-7 new starters (some rookies, some free agents), and a few rookies will begin earning playing time as the season goes on.   Oline, dline and linebacker battles will be fierce.   The TEs will be challenged.   The wideouts definitely will be challenged - only Brown and Beasley are safe.   

[Shaw66]

17 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

 Anything less is either status quo or a step back; either one and changes need to be made.  Can't accept platitudes in lieu of progress.

That's your view.   

 

I am certain that other than a total implosion, like 5-11 and rebellion in the locker room, Beane and McDermott are locks for 2021.   Their plan is long-term, they've sold it to the Pegulas, and they won't be going anywhere in 2021.  

 

Remember, the Pegulas lived through Marrone and Rex, lived through an extraordinarily unhappy fan base, lived through the press storming their doors.   Then these two came, everything settled down, everyone seemed to be on track, and they went to the playoffs two seasons out of three.   They've seen chaos in Cleveland and other franchises.   They aren't going to be in a hurry to dump the guys who took them to peace and harmony and playoffs.  

[Happy]

4 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

What I expect is this:   No big-name free agents, but a lot of guys who will compete for jobs - oline, dline, all over the field.   Then more of the same in the draft.   I expect a lot of fans will be disappointed, because there won't be names like Allen, Edmunds and Oliver added, just really good football players. 

 

What I expect will happen is that there will be intense competition in camp and preseason, and the Bills will go into the season with 5-7 new starters (some rookies, some free agents), and a few rookies will begin earning playing time as the season goes on.   Oline, dline and linebacker battles will be fierce.   The TEs will be challenged.   The wideouts definitely will be challenged - only Brown and Beasley are safe.   

 

I'm fine with that; not looking for big names, just good players.  What I am hoping to see is guys like Star and Ford compete for their jobs and playing time, not just given a spot because McD "believes in them" or that he "is their biggest defender."  Guys like Murphy should get cut because they're just not good enough, rather than being kept around because they "have that DNA."

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, LSHMEAB said:

 

I'm very pleased with the progress the team has made, but I'm not complacent. My hope is that Beane and McDermott are "outliers."

 

We're gonna find out quite a bit this season.

 

I agree.  I don't think 2020 is anything like a make-or-break season, and if the Bills don't knock it out of the park in 2020, I don't think that means that McBeane can't do it.   It just means they didn't do it in 2020.   BUT - 2020 is the first season when they COULD start knocking it out of the park.  I agree that whether they do will tell us a lot about them.  

[Shaw66]

3 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

I'm fine with that; not looking for big names, just good players.  What I am hoping to see is guys like Star and Ford compete for their jobs and playing time, not just given a spot because McD "believes in them" or that he "is their biggest defender."  Guys like Murphy should get cut because they're just not good enough, rather than being kept around because they "have that DNA."

Well, Murphy may be different, because we know that McDermott values senior leadership.   I think McD's starting to get it from Hughes, so Murphy may be toast.   I thought the second half of the season he played pretty well.  

 

But McD has been clear forever about competition.   He and Beane work hard to create competition at every position - that's their mantra.   Morse is about the only offensive lineman I think is safe.   

 

As for Star, I get the sense that McDermott and Beane have a totally different view of his effectiveness than most of the fans.  They seem to be thrilled with what he's given them.   Still, I don't think he's safe.   No one's safe with McDermott.   And that's why I'm not worried about Daboll, either.   He's going to get the job done that McDermott wants, or he'll be gone.  

[Happy]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

That's your view.   

 

I am certain that other than a total implosion, like 5-11 and rebellion in the locker room, Beane and McDermott are locks for 2021.   Their plan is long-term, they've sold it to the Pegulas, and they won't be going anywhere in 2021.  

 

Remember, the Pegulas lived through Marrone and Rex, lived through an extraordinarily unhappy fan base, lived through the press storming their doors.   Then these two came, everything settled down, everyone seemed to be on track, and they went to the playoffs two seasons out of three.   They've seen chaos in Cleveland and other franchises.   They aren't going to be in a hurry to dump the guys who took them to peace and harmony and playoffs.  

 

I don't expect an implosion, I agree with you that McD and Beane will most likely be here in 2021.  What I do worry about is 9-7 or 10-6, leading to one and done year after year as being acceptable.  I don't blame the Pegula's for not liking the press storing their doors, but repeatedly losing the Wildcard round and being swept by the Patriots year after year will lead to a lot of questions and them having to defend McD and Beane.  I just don't want to see an extension before sometime in 2021; they still have too much to prove.

 

Marrone was inherited, then quit.  Can't associate the Pegulas with him.  Rex was 100% their fault and seemed like a knee-jerk hire  - live and learn.  Neither means that mediocrity should be acceptable from current coaching staffs.

[Shaw66]

21 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

I don't expect an implosion, I agree with you that McD and Beane will most likely be here in 2021.  What I do worry about is 9-7 or 10-6, leading to one and done year after year as being acceptable.  I don't blame the Pegula's for not liking the press storing their doors, but repeatedly losing the Wildcard round and being swept by the Patriots year after year will lead to a lot of questions and them having to defend McD and Beane.  I just don't want to see an extension before sometime in 2021; they still have too much to prove.

 

Marrone was inherited, then quit.  Can't associate the Pegulas with him.  Rex was 100% their fault and seemed like a knee-jerk hire  - live and learn.  Neither means that mediocrity should be acceptable from current coaching staffs.

If they lose the wildcard in 2020, it won't be "year after year," it will be two years.   (2017 was an accident.)

 

I wasn't blaming the Pegulas for Marrone.  I was pointing out their lives as NFL owners prior to the arrival of McBeane were tumultuous.   They inherited a coach who didn't want to be there, then they hired the wrong guy.   My point was after you'd lived through that, as an owner you value the peace and quiet and even relative success you're having.  

 

Having said that, I think your timing on an extension is correct.  

[Billl]

4 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

If drafting smart and making good FA acquisitions is an outlier, then I guess they are an outlier.  All you are doing is lowering the bar for all other teams, including the Bills.

 

You could be right regarding Bosa and Samuel.  But why stop there; how about Kittle, Mostert, and Juszczyk?  All big contributors on offense.  How about a strong offensive line?  Without that, no way Garappolo does anything.  The point is they made a complete overhaul of Chip Kelly's disaster in a two year timeframe.  It is possible to get to the SB within three years...outlier or not.

How do you completely disregard the most important part of my statement without missing a beat?  It’s a lot easier to make great draft picks when you’re drafting second overall than when you’re in the twenties.  SF essentially tanked in what was supposed to be the first year of their window.  Shanahan didn’t get killed over it because he could point to the JG injury.  

 

As a result, they got to draft Bosa. That wasn’t a brilliant pick.  It was a complete no brainer that most competent franchises never get to make because competent franchises don’t typically draft second overall.  That’s the very definition of an outlier.  Nobody was pointing to SF as a model franchise 9 months ago.  People were pointing at the Rams.  How did that work out?

 

 

[Happy]

49 minutes ago, Billl said:

How do you completely disregard the most important part of my statement without missing a beat?  It’s a lot easier to make great draft picks when you’re drafting second overall than when you’re in the twenties.  SF essentially tanked in what was supposed to be the first year of their window.  Shanahan didn’t get killed over it because he could point to the JG injury.  

 

As a result, they got to draft Bosa. That wasn’t a brilliant pick.  It was a complete no brainer that most competent franchises never get to make because competent franchises don’t typically draft second overall.  That’s the very definition of an outlier.  Nobody was pointing to SF as a model franchise 9 months ago.  People were pointing at the Rams.  How did that work out?

 

 

 

I must have missed the important part of your statement, or failed to see what was important about it.

 

SF got to draft Nick Bosa in 2017 thanks to Chip Kelly, who in 2016, got them a 2-14 record which no doubt did help in the next draft.  The 2017 season was the first for Lynch/Shanahan, where they went 6-10; hardly a tank and Garappolo wasn't on the team.  He was picked acquired in 2018, where he spent the year injured and they went 4-12.  Having him helped, but I think Lynch was able to upgrade enough remaining holes to get them to a good place in 2019.  Garappolo is not a superstar and will not win without a good cast around him, which Lynch supplied.

 

Looks like Bill Belichick was the first one who saw the Rams as straw men; I'm sure there were others who saw after him, but those were in the minority.  Anyway, most see it now.

[Billl]

2 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

I must have missed the important part of your statement, or failed to see what was important about it.

 

SF got to draft Nick Bosa in 2017 thanks to Chip Kelly, who in 2016, got them a 2-14 record which no doubt did help in the next draft.  The 2017 season was the first for Lynch/Shanahan, where they went 6-10; hardly a tank and Garappolo wasn't on the team.  He was picked acquired in 2018, where he spent the year injured and they went 4-12.  Having him helped, but I think Lynch was able to upgrade enough remaining holes to get them to a good place in 2019.  Garappolo is not a superstar and will not win without a good cast around him, which Lynch supplied.

 

Looks like Bill Belichick was the first one who saw the Rams as straw men; I'm sure there were others who saw after him, but those were in the minority.  Anyway, most see it now.

You’ve given me a lot to think about with this post.

[BringBackOrton]

4 hours ago, Billl said:

How do you completely disregard the most important part of my statement without missing a beat?  It’s a lot easier to make great draft picks when you’re drafting second overall than when you’re in the twenties.  SF essentially tanked in what was supposed to be the first year of their window.  Shanahan didn’t get killed over it because he could point to the JG injury.  

 

As a result, they got to draft Bosa. That wasn’t a brilliant pick.  It was a complete no brainer that most competent franchises never get to make because competent franchises don’t typically draft second overall.  That’s the very definition of an outlier.  Nobody was pointing to SF as a model franchise 9 months ago.  People were pointing at the Rams.  How did that work out?

 

 

The Rams have had more playoff wins in one season than the Bills have since 1993.

 

Imagine throwing stones from this glass house

[SoTier]

11 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

If drafting smart and making good FA acquisitions is an outlier, then I guess they are an outlier.  All you are doing is lowering the bar for all other teams, including the Bills.

 

You could be right regarding Bosa and Samuel.  But why stop there; how about Kittle, Mostert, and Juszczyk?  All big contributors on offense.  How about a strong offensive line?  Without that, no way Garappolo does anything.  The point is they made a complete overhaul of Chip Kelly's disaster in a two year timeframe.  It is possible to get to the SB within three years...outlier or not.

 

This is what all the teams that are consistent playoff and Super Bowl contenders do with regularity.  Think New England, Pittsburgh, KC, Baltimore, Minnesota (a team that's repeatedly made the playoffs without having a top QB), New Orleans, Green Bay, Seattle.  They don't all do it the same way, but their FOs are significantly better at acquiring the right talent at the positions needed to win football games, including on the coaching and scouting/player evaluation staffs.

 

7 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

What I expect is this:   No big-name free agents, but a lot of guys who will compete for jobs - oline, dline, all over the field.   Then more of the same in the draft.   I expect a lot of fans will be disappointed, because there won't be names like Allen, Edmunds and Oliver added, just really good football players. 

 

What I expect will happen is that there will be intense competition in camp and preseason, and the Bills will go into the season with 5-7 new starters (some rookies, some free agents), and a few rookies will begin earning playing time as the season goes on.   Oline, dline and linebacker battles will be fierce.   The TEs will be challenged.   The wideouts definitely will be challenged - only Brown and Beasley are safe.   

 

I don't care if the FAs or draft picks are "big names" but I expect them to be at least the same or better than the players they replace.  This is especially true on the offense where the Bills are lacking NFL quality starters at a couple of skill positions and severely lacking in NFL caliber depth.  Competition for starting RB would be a positive but there shouldn't be any competition with the current incumbents for backup RB.  Gore and Yeldin are simply not good enough RBs for a team that's aiming to win playoff games.  With the WRs, outside of Beasley and Brown, the same is true.  Competition isn't going to make the rest of the Bills WR corps more talented.

[Nextmanup]

On 2/28/2020 at 9:45 PM, Tesla03 said:

With Brady all but gone from NE, Dolphins still in a rebuild, and Jets being the Jets...the Bills have the best opportunity in 20+ years next season to win the division. 

 

Mcdermott has done amazing here, but the one thing he needs to do now is learn how to beat Bill B and New England and take over the division. Is the schedule tough next year? Yea, but the beauty of the NFL is that we basically share the same schedule as our division so there is no excuse there. 

 

Ideally next season's aim should be a division win +playoff win minimum. Obviously we can only go as far as Josh Allen takes us, if he continues his development and does not regress next year we really have a great chance of taking the division. 

BINGO

 

 

[CBennett]

Id cross out Division Title and insert PLAYOFFS and then id agree...

[Shaw66]

8 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

I don't care if the FAs or draft picks are "big names" but I expect them to be at least the same or better than the players they replace.  This is especially true on the offense where the Bills are lacking NFL quality starters at a couple of skill positions and severely lacking in NFL caliber depth.  Competition for starting RB would be a positive but there shouldn't be any competition with the current incumbents for backup RB.  Gore and Yeldin are simply not good enough RBs for a team that's aiming to win playoff games.  With the WRs, outside of Beasley and Brown, the same is true.  Competition isn't going to make the rest of the Bills WR corps more talented.

I expect there will be a lot of replacements, and they all will be improvements.   

 

But I also thing you're too quick to judge and dismiss existing players.   Players improve, especially in their first three or four years.    Maybe not running backs that much, because it's more of an instinctive position than most others, but just about all the other position players can improve over their college and rookie seasons.   McDermott's system is based on driving improvement and, as he's said, having players become the best version of themselves.   

 

You talk about players not becoming more talented, as though all that matters is their combine numbers.   Offensive linemen, particularly, are undercoached in college - it takes them years in some cases to master the schemes they need in the pros.  That has nothing to do with their quickness or agility; it has to do with what they understand about the game and whether they can learn the mental processing that's necessary to be effective.   Defensive backs improve over seasons, as they study and learn more.   

 

Competition helps drive that learning and development.  

 

So, for example, I wouldn't be so quick to give up on the receiving corps behind the two starters.   I wouldn't give up yet on Duke or McKenzie or Foster.   They each bring some natural talents to the table that can be useful, if other aspects of their games improve.  Duke was, in some ways, a rookie last season, so he could show some real improvement in year two.  Tyler Lockett went four seasons in the league at 50 catches a year, then had 82 catches and 1000 yards last season.   Do I expect them to emerge?   No, probably not, because next to running back, receiver may be the most instinctive position, but I wouldn't count them out.   None of us knows what Foster or Duke has been doing for the past several months to improve on particular aspects of their games.   None of us knows how one or two years experience in the McDermott system will help them to make a jump in year three.  And, for that matter, none of us knows how they will react when real competition appears on the scene.   After all, and odd as it sounds, a guy like McKenzie was more or less a lock to make the team last season, because there was no credible back-up punt returner and no one who had shown the ability to run the jet sweep as he did.   How will he respond this summer when there's a guy in camp threatening to take his roster spot from him?  Maybe he folds and goes away, but maybe he rises.   The whole point of having position competition is to bring out the best in players, and maybe competition actually will make McKenzie or Foster better.  

 

However it plays out, there will be better players on the roster come September, because several guys coming out of out the draft and free agency will outfight returning players for jobs.   I expect five or six or seven new starters.   I expect one or two new starters on the offensive line, and someone new at the third wideout position (and I'd count Duke as someone new, since he didn't play much at all last season).   I expect a couple new faces on the defensive line rotation, certainly one new linebacker, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a new face or two in the defensive backfield rotation.  There might be a safety pushing Poyer or Hyde for playing time, and there'll be a lot of competition for the number 2 corner and the nickel back.    It's going to be intense, and the Bills will get better as a result.  

 

 

[nucci]

On 2/28/2020 at 9:45 PM, Tesla03 said:

With Brady all but gone from NE, Dolphins still in a rebuild, and Jets being the Jets...the Bills have the best opportunity in 20+ years next season to win the division. 

 

Mcdermott has done amazing here, but the one thing he needs to do now is learn how to beat Bill B and New England and take over the division. Is the schedule tough next year? Yea, but the beauty of the NFL is that we basically share the same schedule as our division so there is no excuse there. 

 

Ideally next season's aim should be a division win +playoff win minimum. Obviously we can only go as far as Josh Allen takes us, if he continues his development and does not regress next year we really have a great chance of taking the division. 

so if we are a wild card team and make it to the Superbowl......

[Shaw66]

34 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

They'd be fools to go into next season counting on Foster/McKenzie/Duke to be real contributors on offense to this team.....

 

 

I'm sorry.  I must have missed it.  Who said that they were counting on going into next season counting on Foster/McKenzie/Duke to be real contributors?    They aren't "sounting on anything."   McDermott's system is to go to camp and let them compete.   The guys who emerge as the best players make the team.   

 

What I said is that the year-to-year improvement in players makes guys who weren't very useful last season useful in the next.  Foster has speed, McKenzie has quickness and Foster has competitiveness,  each a characteristic that, with improvement in other areas, might make them useful.   

 

Young players improve, and they improve with competition.   Those realities are at the core of what McDermott does.   

 

What's foolish is to ignore that reality.  

[SoTier]

 

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

I'm sorry.  I must have missed it.  Who said that they were counting on going into next season counting on Foster/McKenzie/Duke to be real contributors?    They aren't "sounting on anything."   McDermott's system is to go to camp and let them compete.   The guys who emerge as the best players make the team.   

 

What I said is that the year-to-year improvement in players makes guys who weren't very useful last season useful in the next.  Foster has speed, McKenzie has quickness and Foster has competitiveness,  each a characteristic that, with improvement in other areas, might make them useful.   

 

Young players improve, and they improve with competition.   Those realities are at the core of what McDermott does.   

 

What's foolish is to ignore that reality.  

 

As a group, Foster, McKenzie and Williams simply aren't good enough to make up 3/5 of the WR corps of a team that's serious about winning playoff games.   Foster and Williams were UDFAs while McKenzie was a fifth round pick in 2017.  In general, where a player is drafted -- or not drafted -- indicates what pro talent evaluators think of his talent, which is his potential to be successful in the NFL.  The UDFAs or 6th or 7th rounders who become stars are the exceptions rather than the rule.   The Bills need a bonafide WR1 and another WR that would compete with Beasley and Brown, not more WRs to compete with fringe players like Foster/McKenzie/Williams who ought to be competing against each other to determine which one makes the team.  

 

Competition isn't going to make a player better unless he has talent that he hasn't maximized, which is probably unlikely for most young NFL players, especially players who have actually made an NFL team despite significant odds against their success.  Competition is not going to make a WR bigger or faster since those physical traits can't be changed.  Competition isn't going to make a WR a better route runner or have better footwork on the sidelines or improve his pass catching ability; good coaching and/or experience can improve those to varying degrees. 

 

What's foolish is thinking that a team can win playoff games with regularity with a roster containing a couple of stars, some decent pros, and mostly guys who weren't likely to make most other playoff teams.   The Bills need to upgrade the bottom of their roster, especially on offense, and they should start with the WRs and RBs.

 

 

 

 

[Shaw66]

32 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

 

As a group, Foster, McKenzie and Williams simply aren't good enough to make up 3/5 of the WR corps of a team that's serious about winning playoff games.   Foster and Williams were UDFAs while McKenzie was a fifth round pick in 2017.  In general, where a player is drafted -- or not drafted -- indicates what pro talent evaluators think of his talent, which is his potential to be successful in the NFL.  The UDFAs or 6th or 7th rounders who become stars are the exceptions rather than the rule.   The Bills need a bonafide WR1 and another WR that would compete with Beasley and Brown, not more WRs to compete with fringe players like Foster/McKenzie/Williams who ought to be competing against each other to determine which one makes the team.  

 

Competition isn't going to make a player better unless he has talent that he hasn't maximized, which is probably unlikely for most young NFL players, especially players who have actually made an NFL team despite significant odds against their success.  Competition is not going to make a WR bigger or faster since those physical traits can't be changed.  Competition isn't going to make a WR a better route runner or have better footwork on the sidelines or improve his pass catching ability; good coaching and/or experience can improve those to varying degrees. 

 

What's foolish is thinking that a team can win playoff games with regularity with a roster containing a couple of stars, some decent pros, and mostly guys who weren't likely to make most other playoff teams.   The Bills need to upgrade the bottom of their roster, especially on offense, and they should start with the WRs and RBs.

 

 

 

 

I don't disagree that the Bills need to better play out of the bottom of the roster.   No question at all.   They need better play out of several starting positions.   

 

Where I think you're wrong, and where McDermott clearly thinks you're wrong, is that the player you see by the end of his rookie or even second year is the player you'll see after four years.   Yes, some things, like size and speed, can't change, but most players in the NFL need to learn a lot before they're effective.  

 

Look at Ed Oliver.   Supremely talented.   He didn't become effective until late in his rookie season, and he's a top 10 pick.   There's a lot to learn in the NFL.   Plenty of guys who start in the NFL didn't even make a roster coming out of college - they spend a year or two on practice squads, learning and developing.   A lot of things go into that learning and development, and one of the things that causes that development is competition.   

 

So, I think it's foolish to assume that Foster/McKenzie/Williams have no future.   I agreed completely that the 2019 versions of those guys are not good enough to fill out a really competitive roster, but if they are like a lot of players, they are still learning and developing as NFL players.   The question isn't whether the 2019 version is going to make the roster; the question is whether the 2020 version will make it.  

 

There are guys around the league who are contributing wideouts who didn't do much their first couple of years.   Curtis Samuel at Carolina.  Russell Gage in Atlanta.   Alex Erickson, Cincinnati.    They aren't guys going to the Pro BOwl, but back up receivers never do.  But those guys each were in the league for a few years before they caught 50 passes last season.   

 

We all tend to think that what we saw in a player last season is what we're going to get next season.   It isn't true in all cases.    

 

You can respond that in your opinion, these guys aren't going to get any better, and you're entitled to your opinion.  But at least in the case of Williams and Foster, these guys have some NFL-caliber skills, and I think it's foolish to assume that they can't contribute more in 2020 than in 2019.   That doesn't mean that my plan is to go into training camp with those guys as the favorites for the 3-4-5 receiver spot on the roster - I want someone who projects to be better, and McBeane do too.   What it means is that I'm prepared to be pleasantly surprised if one of those three emerge as a better contributor in 2020 than 2019.

[row_33]

tougher schedule on paper

 

making the playoffs would be good for me

 

would be happier with some playoffs wins

 

[mjt328]

Calling the season a "failure" is a bit harsh.

 

Considering the number of teams who have broken out and then gone backwards the next season (most recently the Jaguars, Bears), I think Bills fans should expect an improved team overall.  We need to see a better Josh Allen, and offense that can consistently score more points than 2019, and a defense that remains steady.  

 

Now does that result in winning the division?  Maybe.  Maybe not.

The general assumption is that New England is going backwards, while both New York and Miami are not very good.  But what if those assumptions are incorrect?  What if the Bills win 12-13 games, and somehow that isn't enough to win the AFC East?

 

I think it's a mistake to draw a line in the sand like this.  Wait and see what happens, then judge whether our front office/coaching staff/players are moving in the right direction.

 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

Well I just booked a hotel for the week of the Super Bowl in Tampa so I'm ready.  Actually booked it down towards Sarasota.  Pickings are already very slim.

 

Actually I've been planning to try and attend next years game ever since it was announced as relatively close.  Want to experience the SB week atmosphere.

[Punching Bag]

On 2/29/2020 at 3:48 PM, CommonCents said:

Everyone talking like the Bills should win the division and be a SB contender. Want a taste of reality? Go look at their SB odds.

 

If not making/winning a SB this year is the bar for McD and Beane you guys are nuts.

 

There is plenty of room for a successful season that doesn’t include a SB appearance. 

 

Their odds are 35/1, that’s behind the Falcons, Browns and Steelers. Teams that didn’t even make the playoffs. 

 

Odds should not be not used.  Many of those betting on Falcons, Browns and Steelers maybe Bills fans still being negative nancies.

On 3/1/2020 at 5:02 PM, Happy Gilmore said:

 

I'm fine with that; not looking for big names, just good players.  What I am hoping to see is guys like Star and Ford compete for their jobs and playing time, not just given a spot because McD "believes in them" or that he "is their biggest defender."  Guys like Murphy should get cut because they're just not good enough, rather than being kept around because they "have that DNA."

 

I am guessing that Bills will use their own judgement on who is "good enough" and will not necessarily agree with you.

[Happy]

9 hours ago, Limeaid said:

 

 

I am guessing that Bills will use their own judgement on who is "good enough" and will not necessarily agree with you.

 

No, I'm used to getting a call on all personnel matters.  ?

[Punching Bag]

2 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

No, I'm used to getting a call on all personnel matters.  ?

 

I am sure the Bengals appreciate your help.

[JPP]

Agree with OP.......Its there for the taking......If we dont win....let the heads start to roll......FIRE EVERYBODY!!

[row_33]

Keeping Josh healthy and improving every week is the goal

 

Pouncing on a very soft division and AFC would be nice

 

dominating everything in sight is a pipedream

 

[Chicken Boo]

No point in starting a new thread.

 

With Brady now gone, what say you now?