shoshin Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 (edited) Article about the effectiveness of the general public wearing masks. A literature study (a ton of articles reviewed, more than just a cherry-picked one) but focused on the effectiveness of you and me wearing even cloth masks (or better too) to stop the spread, not doctors and nurses in hospitals. Edited May 12, 2020 by shoshin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Check Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 1 hour ago, shoshin said: Article about the effectiveness of the general public wearing masks. A literature study (a ton of articles reviewed, more than just a cherry-picked one) but focused on the effectiveness of you and me wearing even cloth masks (or better too) to stop the spread, not doctors and nurses in hospitals. Still not convinced. Too anecdotal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoshin Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Reality Check said: Still not convinced. Too anecdotal. Except it’s not. No Twitter link here. Just a multi-institution multi MD/PhD paper reviewing other studies of multiple PhD papers. Edited May 12, 2020 by shoshin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, Chef Jim said: What do you think, I run up and hug every person I see on the trail? Good lord man! Why are you so obsessed with the mask? Are you ugly? I do EXACTLY what every sign on the trail asks me to do. Practice social distancing. It says nothing about wearing a mask so I don’t. If you’re that bunged up about people wearing a mask while they hike stay home. Because NO ONE is wearing one out there. To be fair he is suggesting you wear a mask. Although I agree with your point of view on social distancing it is hard to disagree with him regarding the side benefits of your face being covered and the impact on trail aesthetics. Edited May 12, 2020 by 4merper4mer 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Check Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 4 minutes ago, shoshin said: Except it’s not. No Twitter link here. Just a multi-institution multi MD/PhD paper to review. Anecdotal opinions from so called experts with profit motives and other corporate/political agendas are not of interest to me at this point. Where is the double blind study with the requisite control group? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 1 minute ago, Reality Check said: Anecdotal opinions from so called experts with profit motives and other corporate/political agendas are not of interest to me at this point. Where is the double blind study with the requisite control group? Double blind studies and stuff are only required for thing Trump says. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Check Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 1 minute ago, 4merper4mer said: Double blind studies and stuff are only required for thing Trump says. I stand corrected. You are right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoshin Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Reality Check said: Anecdotal opinions from so called experts with profit motives and other corporate/political agendas are not of interest to me at this point. Where is the double blind study with the requisite control group? Anti-science is now way to go through life. Since you read the paper and source material in the last 30 minutes, care to explain the scientific failings of the study and its sources? 7 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said: Double blind studies and stuff are only required for thing Trump says. Trump says to wear masks and the studies back that up. Trump says take HCQ and the studies of that show nothing good. Trump promoted Remdesivir and that early research appears to support it as effective. Trump wanted to shut down the country and now wants to open it. I agreed with both decisions. It’s not about the messenger. On one of the above topics, there’s no basis. Edited May 12, 2020 by shoshin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 6 hours ago, SectionC3 said: No, the hiking trail isn't simple. What if it's a crowded hiking trail? That too can put you in a place to be proximate to others. You should call the CDC with respect to your complaint about the ambiguity of "proximate[]." That's the CDC's word; not mine. Sorry, but you ignore the CDC's guidance with respect to the use of masks. I'll quote it since you refuse to read it: "A cloth face covering should be worn whenever people are in a community setting, especially in situations where you may be near people. These settings include grocery stores and pharmacies. These face coverings are not a substitute for social distancing. Cloth face coverings are especially important to wear in public in areas of widespread COVID-19 illness." I don't need dinner or the shining of my shoes. It would suffice if you would simply be respectful of others. This is the post of mine with which you take issue: "That's nice, and it is your choice. It's also my choice to tell you that I think you're being selfish to the extent that you come into close proximity with another person on the trail or in your neighborhood. I have some ignorant people in my neighborhood; an adult member of one household had COVID-19 and was down and out for almost two months, and this person's spouse closely associated during that time period with others in the neighborhood. None of those congregants has worn a mask, and some of those people have come too close to my kids since then. They have quickly learned of my views on the matter." Apparently it's too much to ask to either avoid coming into "close proximity" with another person, or to wear a mask if "close proximity" can't be avoided. It is what it is. Is it realistic of you to judge people as selfish morons who are putting your life at risk if not all 350 million of them interpret guidelines in the exact manner that you see fit? Or might it be better to avoid the inevitable stress you'll encounter if you see a guy across the street without a mask by staying in your house? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Check Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 4 minutes ago, shoshin said: Anti-science is now way to go through life. Since you read the paper and source material in the last 30 minutes, care to explain the scientific failings of the study and its sources? Trump says to wear masks and the studies back that up. Trump says take HCQ and the studies of that show nothing good. Trump wanted to shut down the country and now wants to open it. I agreed with both decisions. It’s not about the messenger. On one of the above topics, there’s no basis. You carry on as if you still work for Big-Pharma. These models everyone is in love with are simply business models. As far as being anti-science, science is a method, not something one believes in. Too many scientists are treated as the new "priest" class in our society and they are wrong quite often. Most of these people can not exist without tenure at the overpriced universities. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoshin Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Reality Check said: You carry on as if you still work for Big-Pharma. These models everyone is in love with are simply business models. As far as being anti-science, science is a method, not something one believes in. Too many scientists are treated as the new "priest" class in our society and they are wrong quite often. Most of these people can not exist without tenure at the overpriced universities. Villainizing capitalists and scientists used to be the exclusive domain of the left. Scientists are not priests. You can test their hypotheses. The mask research predates this pandemic and isn’t about supporting government control over you wearing a mask. It was research into the effectiveness of masks to prevent disease spread in public places and it's as close as you can get to definitive: Masks make a significant difference. You can have the last word. If you respond with a scientific assertion, I'll be happy to carry the conversation forward. Edited May 12, 2020 by shoshin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Check Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 Just now, shoshin said: Villainizing capitalists and scientists used to be the exclusive domain of the left. Scientists are not priests. You can test their hypotheses. The mask research predates this pandemic and isn’t about a conspiracy of government control. Your propaganda is slick. You cleverly slide away from the points I made. Wearing masks in open spaces and stores, which are never sterile environments is ridiculous. If you are not sanitizing these masks frequently it is just ***** of one's paranoia. Villainizing capitalists and scientists, well guess what. Some of them are absolute villains. That is a cute method of converting my criticism of some as an attack on the scope of broad band ideology. Don't hold your breathe on that vaccine either. Everyone I know that takes the flu shot gets sick within weeks every year. The people I know that don't take it, tend to never get sick. By this time next year, the Rand Corporation and Stratfor will have their studies ready on this whole episode. I will likely put more trust into their conclusions than the chicken littles that just destroyed the lives of entire nations. Also, why was Fort Derrick shut down last September by the CDC? Why was the Wuhan lab shut down a month later? Why does Fauci work on "gain of function" research in both labs via the NIH to make these viruses worse and more contagious? It's just a business to them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 10 hours ago, Boatdrinks said: Yes they do; inside. Joggers and people in cars wearing masks is just a bit overdone. Deaths are deaths and they count, right ? The flu is not the same , but it has claimed far more lives than Covid19 at this point and probably for quite some time. I’m required to mask and glove-up when I do my Meals on Wheels run. I drive around 40 miles to deliver food to a couple dozen very old/infirm people. I don’t take my mask off till I’m done with my route and have returned the coolers to the Elder Services Center. 7 hours ago, Chef Jim said: Decency? The CDC tells me I should go out to parks and trails. That it’s actually good for me. ?. It says nothing about wearing a mask. Doesn’t even recommend it. So if you fear me on the trail that much you can stay home. To use your words “your choice.” I was perplexed and annoyed when the Audubon Society closed all of their properties about eight weeks ago. Their Wellfleet property is gorgeous. There is a ton of extra pressure on local parks and land preserves. As a side note, I love dogs, but there are so many disgraceful dog owners that don’t keep them on leash, or pick up their poop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, shoshin said: I like to believe we can do better than being number 13. On a per capita basis. After 4 months. In deaths. I want America to be the unqualified leader not the follower with caveats. There are structural disadvantages that the US has over all the other countries that are ranked better on a per capita basis. Primarily one large factor, there are many multiples more of travel coming from infected areas being imported into the US than any other country. There are no exact stats on net COVID infected people, but I'd be willing to wager that the net total of COVID infected individuals is much higher than any other country. By the time the first community spread person was detected in the US, it was too late. Edited May 12, 2020 by Magox 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Check Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Check Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoshin Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Magox said: There are structural disadvantages that the US has over all the other countries that are lower than the US has. Primarily one large factor, there are many multiples more of travel coming from infected areas being imported into the US than any other country. There are no exact stats on net COVID infected people, but I'd be willing to wager that the net total of COVID infected individuals is much higher than any other country. By the time the first community spread person was detected in the US, it was too late. I think we are doing fine. But our "fine" is maybe a little above average compared to other countries. In no way are we kicking ass compared to other countries. It's OK--I just expect us to be more united and more effective than we have been. Looking at only our share of the preventable blame, it was a failing leading up to this in preparing for a pandemic, a failure to take early action that would have made a big difference (no politician recognized this so I don't lay that blame at Trump...but still we did not react when we needed to), and currently a failure to implement an aggressive recovery program to get us the hell back open quickly and safely. I expect chaos in an unpredicted pandemic--but what we are seeing is a cut above that and it leaves us looking average. "We're doing better than Italy and Spain" is not a banner I'm proud to carry. Edited May 12, 2020 by shoshin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 1 minute ago, shoshin said: I think we are doing fine. But our "fine" is maybe a little above average compared to other countries. In no way are we kicking ass compared to other countries. It's OK--I just expect us to be more united and more effective than we have been. Looking at only our share of the preventable blame, it was a failing leading up to this in preparing for a pandemic, a failure to take early action that would have made a big difference (no politician recognized this so I don't lay that blame at Trump...but still we did not react when we needed to), and currently a failure to implement an aggressive recovery program to get us the hell back open quickly and safely. I expect chaos in an unpredicted pandemic--but what we are seeing is a cut above that and it leaves us looking average. "We're doing better than Italy and Spain" is not a banner I'm proud to carry. I think expectations should be set realistically, but there won't be. When you have hundreds if not thousands of silent carriers coming in from Asia and Europe without being detected back in January, which is much more than the countries that have lower per capita rankings, it makes it all the more difficult. This isn't a blame game, this is reality. As I said earlier, by the time the first infected virus community spread individual was detected, it was too late to contain. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SectionC3 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 50 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said: Is it realistic of you to judge people as selfish morons who are putting your life at risk if not all 350 million of them interpret guidelines in the exact manner that you see fit? Or might it be better to avoid the inevitable stress you'll encounter if you see a guy across the street without a mask by staying in your house? Moron is your word, not mine. The question of interpretation is not a close one here. The CDC suggests wearing a mask when in proximity to others. If you can't be bothered to do that, then you're being selfish. It is what it is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoshin Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 23 minutes ago, Reality Check said: A chiropractor who's an expert on anti-viral treatments. Cool beans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Check Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 3 minutes ago, shoshin said: A chiropractor who's an expert on anti-viral treatments. Cool beans. Is he wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Miner Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 1 hour ago, shoshin said: Except it’s not. No Twitter link here. Just a multi-institution multi MD/PhD paper reviewing other studies of multiple PhD papers. It literally says Not Peer Reviewed on each page of the link. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Check Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 1 minute ago, Joe Miner said: It literally says Not Peer Reviewed on each page of the link. Sad but true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxx Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 https://twitter.com/NoahCRothman/status/1259932184829407233 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 10 minutes ago, SectionC3 said: Moron is your word, not mine. The question of interpretation is not a close one here. The CDC suggests wearing a mask when in proximity to others. If you can't be bothered to do that, then you're being selfish. It is what it is. Being selfish isn’t a crime in a free society. In fact it’s one of the core principles. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snafu Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 9 hours ago, SectionC3 said: Either you believe him to have performed well or you support a mediocre president. (And mediocre probably is a compliment.). Your choice. There’s no context to your statement. Judging any President’s performance needs to take into account many factors in place at the time he’s in office. Very generally speaking, there are three co-equal branches of government; there are other acting countries and governments; there are terrorist actors; the world economy affects ours; our own economy affects domestic policy; only about 55% of the electorate, at best, is supportive; the electorate’s societal ills affect domestic policy; the media’s treatment of the President. You’d be hard pressed to find any President who’s performance is better than mediocre, at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoshin Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Joe Miner said: It literally says Not Peer Reviewed on each page of the link. It is a literature review in pre publication. There is no peer review...except for the 27 studies it cites! I will stick with the leading experts in the field and the CDC. The chiropractor is a source too. Edited May 12, 2020 by shoshin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 Monday’s numbers are way, way down all over the country. This story is over. All that’s left now is a feeble bunch of government officials testing their newly discovered authority to boss people around. Get used to it! While the virus will fade, you’re not going to see any curve flattening when it comes to government mandates. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
\GoBillsInDallas/ Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 Well, it IS an emergency: https://nypost.com/2020/05/12/federal-judge-rules-strip-clubs-are-entitled-to-emergency-ppp-aid/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoshin Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 16 minutes ago, Reality Check said: Is he wrong? I already take D and zinc. But not because a back doctor says to. 2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: Monday’s numbers are way, way down all over the country. This story is over. All that’s left now is a feeble bunch of government officials testing their newly discovered authority to boss people around. Get used to it! While the virus will fade, you’re not going to see any curve flattening when it comes to government mandates. Monday’s numbers were up from Sunday and Mondays are always low. Tuesday to Thursday will show if we are finally seeing a slowdown that was the result of the shutdown. And in a month or so we will see the effect of reopening. Hopefully weather and distancing will keep things level. Either way as long as hospitals can handle it, we need to reopen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Check Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 Just now, shoshin said: I already take D and zinc. But not because a back doctor says to. I like the elitist streak you have. Were you a PR guy? The best ones are sycophants to hierarchical structures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 Today's hearing is highly anticipated, especially by the media and Trump's detractors. In prepared remarks, apparently there is a snippet of a quote that is being taken out of context. They are harping on his quote "needless suffering and death", if states open up too quickly. Of course, what the media is focusing on is "needless suffering and death". We have said it here on this site quite a few times, he just seems to always provides these quotes that can easily be sensationalized by the media. There are ways to communicate the exact same message without providing fodder to the media to hyperventilate over. With that said, here are the questions that I would like to be asked today during the hearing: 1) By the time this all said and done, what do you believe that the actual mortality rate will be? Not the confirmed case but what you believe to be the actual mortality rate? 2) Yes or no, do we have enough testing in all or most states in your view to go through phase 1? 3) Do you believe after all is said and done, that for people under the age of 65, COVID is about as dangerous to those individuals as the common flu? 4) Do you believe that overall, COVID is as dangerous, more dangerous or less dangerous than the common flu for those under the age of 10? 5) There have been a few studies and strong anecdotal accounts that suggest that children below the age of 10 are much less likely to pass on the virus to adults, what are your thoughts on that? 6) There were some strong anecdotal accounts from a pork plant in Missouri and quite a few prisons with sample sizes in the thousands that indicated that the asymptomatic rate was around 97%. Do you believe there is a chance that the vast majority of people who have the virus are mildly effected if at all? 7) There have been studies that show that the primary driver to transmit the virus is in enclosed confined spaces where people don't typically just have casual contact but rather sustained period of contact before the virus is transmitted. Such as transportation, meat plants, prisons, nursery homes or simply people bringing the virus into homes. Do you agree with that? 8 ) There are studies that suggest that being outside in the sun, heat and humidity that suggest that the environment for the virus is more hostile for it to spread. What are your thoughts on that? 9) Do you believe that the vast majority of the population have the immune systems to effectively fight off the virus? 10) What metric and gauge are you looking at to determine if the rate of prevalency is going up or down? Do you value net totals of infections more so than rate of positive test results or vice versa? Or is there another metric that you view more carefully? The questions for Fauci shouldn't be so much about policy. They should be about science. I expect Democrats to try to ask questions that will lead to answers that don't fully provide a picture of the situation. And I don't expect Republicans to ask the substantive questions that I believe should be asked because frankly speaking, I don't think any of these politicians are versed well enough to ask the right questions. The questions should be related to science not policy. It's not up to Fauci to create policy, his role is to provide the facts and data and give guidance. It's up to policy makers to then use that scientific data to create policy. I don't expect a substantive Q & A. I will be watching Fauci closely today, my hopes are that he provides full context with his answers. My guess is that he'll somehow provide more snippets in today's hearing that will be used against the administration that are taken out of it's context. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 3 minutes ago, shoshin said: Monday’s numbers were up from Sunday and Mondays are always low. Tuesday to Thursday will show if we are finally seeing a slowdown that was the result of the shutdown. And in a month or so we will see the effect of reopening. Hopefully weather and distancing will keep things level. Either way as long as hospitals can handle it, we need to reopen. I realize that the weekend is always lower. I watch it every day. But the trending is undeniable. This story is over. And now that it is, if you look back and take the NY metro area out of it; the story never really began in a whole lot of this big country. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snafu Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 3 hours ago, shoshin said: I like to believe we can do better than being number 13. On a per capita basis. After 4 months. In deaths. I want America to be the unqualified leader not the follower with caveats. I get your point, and I haven’t had the opportunity to look at the list, but I’d wager that we could crack the top ten if we are skeptical of some countries’ reporting. And we could even get into the top five if we factor in testing capabilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 3 hours ago, shoshin said: You do you. He will do him. I am not worried about these arguments at the fringes of masks and social shaming. If we are all mostly wearing masks (sometimes we all may forget), it will make a difference. Why quote me on this? I have no problem with him doing him. He’s the one that has the issue with me killing his family.....I mean doing me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoshin Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 Just now, Chef Jim said: Why quote me on this? I have no problem with him doing him. He’s the one that has the issue with me killing his family.....I mean doing me. When I saw the thread, you were the latest post. I was making the larger point that as long as we are wearing masks in tighter settings and washing hands a lot, we are doing what we need to do for the most part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 1 hour ago, 4merper4mer said: To be fair he is suggesting you wear a mask. Although I agree with your point of view on social distancing it is hard to disagree with him regarding the side benefits of your face being covered and the impact on trail aesthetics. Well why didn’t he say so. That would have saved us all a lot of back and forth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 1 hour ago, Magox said: There are structural disadvantages that the US has over all the other countries that are ranked better on a per capita basis. Primarily one large factor, there are many multiples more of travel coming from infected areas being imported into the US than any other country. There are no exact stats on net COVID infected people, but I'd be willing to wager that the net total of COVID infected individuals is much higher than any other country. By the time the first community spread person was detected in the US, it was too late. So we need a wall? ? 44 minutes ago, SectionC3 said: Moron is your word, not mine. The question of interpretation is not a close one here. The CDC suggests wearing a mask when in proximity to others. If you can't be bothered to do that, then you're being selfish. It is what it is. They do not suggest it while in parks and trails however. But you refuse to acknowledge that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 4 minutes ago, Chef Jim said: They do not suggest it while in parks and trails however. But you refuse to acknowledge that. This response demonstrates the futility of advocating good behavior. On one side you have people who think that masks should be worn everywhere, on the other are those who will never put on a mask. The reality is in between. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 10 minutes ago, shoshin said: When I saw the thread, you were the latest post. I was making the larger point that as long as we are wearing masks in tighter settings and washing hands a lot, we are doing what we need to do for the most part. Which I do but for some reason I’m being selfish if I choose to me able to breath when I’m on a strenuous hike ar least six feet away from everyone I encounter. This is not a retort to you this is in response to @SectionC3 doing what you rightly called social shaming. Chapter one out of the SJW playbook. Just now, GG said: This response demonstrates the futility of advocating good behavior. On one side you have people who think that masks should be worn everywhere, on the other are those who will never put on a mask. The reality is in between. Ant that’s where I, and most fit. In between. I guess he doesn’t understand that. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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