The Next Pandemic: SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19

[SoCal Deek]

3 hours ago, GaryPinC said:

Ohio has about 11 million people.  Oregon has about 4, and has had some of the strictest quarantine rules, on a level with NY, maybe more (I have a buddy outside of Portland).

Their worst outbreak (fall) topped out at 1,500 new cases.  Ohio's worst (fall) topped out around 11,000.  Oregon had far less cases than the population difference can account for.

 

New cases, hospitalizations and death numbers are only partly affected by precautions.  Show me the numbers on compliance, unprecautioned house parties, gatherings, apathy, etc and maybe we could draw some larger conclusions.

 

The efficacy of masks and distancing are readily apparent to those of us who have kids attending schools or work in hospitals.  While some people fantasize the precautions can squash this, we would have to replicate what the Chinese enforced.

 

Since we aren't, it's simply about slowing spread.    It always has been.  Sad that politics hides that reality.

That's an interesting take but certainly doesn't tell the full story. It's widely accepted that if you impose/suggest really strict lock-downs that you'll SLOW the spread from person to person.  Obviously!   But...you won't STOP the spread short of sending people 'away' once infected.  What the numbers have proven is that if you sample long enough and over a large enough population that the numbers come out pretty much the same over time. Put another way, it all evens out. The virus has been in the blood stream for over a year now, circulating amongst a population of over 330 Million people. State by State the mortality rate has more or less averaged out, regardless of the many weather, policy, and population differences. The States that have SLOWED the spread more than others are all in the cul-de-sac extremities of the country where by virtue of their geographic location there's bound to be less person to person spread from the core of the 'body'. 

[Chef Jim]

13 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

Because moving to the burbs so I talk about lawn care with the neighborhood cool dads and maybe hit the nearest Chili's on Fridays for date night with the missus sounds like a fate worse than never ending pandemic.

 

Living in SF was a fate worse than the pandemic.  Up to now my wife and I have emerged unscathed from the pandemic.  Our health living in the city?  Let's just say I was scared to death for a certain three months living there my wife was going to die.  

[GaryPinC]

2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

That's an interesting take but certainly doesn't tell the full story. It's widely accepted that if you impose/suggest really strict lock-downs that you'll SLOW the spread from person to person.  Obviously!   But...you won't STOP the spread short of sending people 'away' once infected.  What the numbers have proven is that if you sample long enough and over a large enough population that the numbers come out pretty much the same over time. Put another way, it all evens out. The virus has been in the blood stream for over a year now, circulating amongst a population of over 330 Million people. State by State the mortality rate has more or less averaged out, regardless of the many weather, policy, and population differences. The States that have SLOWED the spread more than others are all in the cul-de-sac extremities of the country where by virtue of their geographic location there's bound to be less person to person spread from the core of the 'body'. 

Yes, I agree completely.   We lost the ability to stop the spread in the first two months on when we had no solid infrastructure or cohesive response to contract trace.

For as bad as lockdowns were, we didn't take them far enough, China did though.  But, even if the majority of citizens had been receptive to this, I doubt we could have done the rapid contact tracing necessary.  

 

Again, many people fantasize that masks and distancing are going to knock this thing out but that's simply fallacy.  They do offer good protection though.  Even today this virus is still showing in India and Brazil the ability to overwhelm health systems.  That's what it all was really about and why the numbers even out over time.  You can't ask people to take these precautions forever, it's coming to an end, hopefully enough get vaccinated and natural immunity can control Covid.  Vaccination is up to the task if everyone would just get it done.  Plus, large vaccination should greatly reduce viral mutation.

[SoCal Deek]

3 minutes ago, GaryPinC said:

Yes, I agree completely.   We lost the ability to stop the spread in the first two months on when we had no solid infrastructure or cohesive response to contract trace.

For as bad as lockdowns were, we didn't take them far enough, China did though.  But, even if the majority of citizens had been receptive to this, I doubt we could have done the rapid contact tracing necessary.  

 

Again, many people fantasize that masks and distancing are going to knock this thing out but that's simply fallacy.  They do offer good protection though.  Even today this virus is still showing in India and Brazil the ability to overwhelm health systems.  That's what it all was really about and why the numbers even out over time.  You can't ask people to take these precautions forever, it's coming to an end, hopefully enough get vaccinated and natural immunity can control Covid.  Vaccination is up to the task if everyone would just get it done.  Plus, large vaccination should greatly reduce viral mutation.

Agreed....but what a free country can do will always be different from what a Communist country can do. I, for one, wouldn't trade one for the other.  Not for a once in a century pandemic, anyway.  But that's just me.

[Chef Jim]

14 minutes ago, GaryPinC said:

Yes, I agree completely.   We lost the ability to stop the spread in the first two months on when we had no solid infrastructure or cohesive response to contract trace.

For as bad as lockdowns were, we didn't take them far enough, China did though.  But, even if the majority of citizens had been receptive to this, I doubt we could have done the rapid contact tracing necessary.  

 

Again, many people fantasize that masks and distancing are going to knock this thing out but that's simply fallacy.  They do offer good protection though.  Even today this virus is still showing in India and Brazil the ability to overwhelm health systems.  That's what it all was really about and why the numbers even out over time.  You can't ask people to take these precautions forever, it's coming to an end, hopefully enough get vaccinated and natural immunity can control Covid.  Vaccination is up to the task if everyone would just get it done.  Plus, large vaccination should greatly reduce viral mutation.

 

Honest question. Where is China in relationship to the US with regard to the pandemic?  

[Jauronimo]

14 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

 

Living in SF was a fate worse than the pandemic.  Up to now my wife and I have emerged unscathed from the pandemic.  Our health living in the city?  Let's just say I was scared to death for a certain three months living there my wife was going to die.  

I live in the city of Houston.  All the ugly stuff is reserved for the bad parts of town. 

 

Texas got back on its feet quickly and I have been comfortable with the way the local businesses have handled it.  I've been going to bars and restaurants regularly since last May.  I avoid the young bars which were Covid hot spots and really only self-quarantined before we were going to be in contact with elderly members of our families.  

[Chef Jim]

31 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

I live in the city of Houston.  All the ugly stuff is reserved for the bad parts of town. 

 

Texas got back on its feet quickly and I have been comfortable with the way the local businesses have handled it.  I've been going to bars and restaurants regularly since last May.  I avoid the young bars which were Covid hot spots and really only self-quarantined before we were going to be in contact with elderly members of our families.  

 

SF is the bad part of town!

 

And glad to see you avoided those bars where only young people hang.   Covid avoids the boomer bars.  

[Jauronimo]

Just now, Chef Jim said:

 

SF is the bad part of town!

 

And glad to see you avoided those bars where only young people hang.   Covid avoids the boomer bars.  

Boomer bars?  Only one of us here is a boomer.  I'm a millennial according to my date of birth.

 

The bars I avoided are known Covid hotspots among the early 20s crowds, as in I know multiple people who can trace Covid back to those bars which are all shutdown by the Texas liquor authority for breaking Covid protocols. 

 

Does Covid avoid hacky sack circles at Umphrees shows?

[GaryPinC]

57 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

 

Honest question. Where is China in relationship to the US with regard to the pandemic?  

Well, my wife's Chinese with family still there and the mutual friend who introduced us is back in China also.  We talk to both regularly.  They have been full normal since April 2020, over the summer my friend said they require masks on public transportation but nowhere else.  I haven't yet asked him since then if they require masks at all now.

 

They still have infrequent cases, according to the NY Times tracker.  As in, a breakout is 30 to 100 new 24 hr cases for the entire 1.3 billion people.  They immediately contact trace and lock that area down.  To those who might suggest China is fudging/hiding numbers I would simply say you can't hide a pandemic for long in a nation with that size and population density.  Especially with few precautions.  They beat it.  2 months of true lockdowns and aggressive contact tracings and they beat it.

 

Compare that to our situation now.  Which is preferable?  I would argue the 2 months of strict lockdowns with aggressive contact tracings.

 

But many there don't trust Chinese science and haven't gotten their vaccines.  They're hoping for the Western vaccines.  😂

[Chef Jim]

2 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Boomer bars?  Only one of us here is a boomer.  I'm a millennial according to my date of birth.

 

The bars I avoided are known Covid hotspots among the early 20s crowds, as in I know multiple people who can trace Covid back to those bars which are all shutdown by the Texas liquor authority for breaking Covid protocols. 

 

Does Covid avoid hacky sack circles at Umphrees shows?

 

What Covid protocols did the 20s crowd bars break that the bars that you frequented observe?

 

And it's Umphrey's 

[GaryPinC]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

Agreed....but what a free country can do will always be different from what a Communist country can do. I, for one, wouldn't trade one for the other.  Not for a once in a century pandemic, anyway.  But that's just me.

Sure, but in a free country I wish we had more wisdom and foresight to recognize a pandemic and step up to do what's needed to eliminate it quickly rather than having it forced.  Sadly a communist government was the only one to succeed.

 

Keep in mind this is not over yet.  Asymptomatic spread with the wrong mutations can change everything.  You take a chance leaving it in circulation hoping natural immunity will prevail.  It will in time, but normally very deadly mutations burn themselves out because it can't spread easily when the symptomatic host is quickly dead.  But the asymptomatic spread truly worries me.

[Chef Jim]

11 minutes ago, GaryPinC said:

Well, my wife's Chinese with family still there and the mutual friend who introduced us is back in China also.  We talk to both regularly.  They have been full normal since April 2020, over the summer my friend said they require masks on public transportation but nowhere else.  I haven't yet asked him since then if they require masks at all now.

 

They still have infrequent cases, according to the NY Times tracker.  As in, a breakout is 30 to 100 new 24 hr cases for the entire 1.3 billion people.  They immediately contact trace and lock that area down.  To those who might suggest China is fudging/hiding numbers I would simply say you can't hide a pandemic for long in a nation with that size and population density.  Especially with few precautions.  They beat it.  2 months of true lockdowns and aggressive contact tracings and they beat it.

 

Compare that to our situation now.  Which is preferable?  I would argue the 2 months of strict lockdowns with aggressive contact tracings.

 

But many there don't trust Chinese science and haven't gotten their vaccines.  They're hoping for the Western vaccines.  😂

 

What is a strict lockdown?

 

When you say there is no fudging of the numbers how can this be?  I just looked (and maybe I'm looking at the wrong numbers) but they show less than 5,000 deaths.  

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by Chef Jim

[Jauronimo]

Just now, Chef Jim said:

 

What Covid protocols did the 20s crowd bars break that the bars that you frequented observe?

 

And it's Umphrey's 

Capacity protocols and mask requirements, among others.  Do you have a point or are you just trying to play "gotcha"?

[BillStime]

22 minutes ago, GaryPinC said:

Well, my wife's Chinese with family still there and the mutual friend who introduced us is back in China also.  We talk to both regularly.  They have been full normal since April 2020, over the summer my friend said they require masks on public transportation but nowhere else.  I haven't yet asked him since then if they require masks at all now.

 

They still have infrequent cases, according to the NY Times tracker.  As in, a breakout is 30 to 100 new 24 hr cases for the entire 1.3 billion people.  They immediately contact trace and lock that area down.  To those who might suggest China is fudging/hiding numbers I would simply say you can't hide a pandemic for long in a nation with that size and population density.  Especially with few precautions.  They beat it.  2 months of true lockdowns and aggressive contact tracings and they beat it.

 

Compare that to our situation now.  Which is preferable?  I would argue the 2 months of strict lockdowns with aggressive contact tracings.

 

But many there don't trust Chinese science and haven't gotten their vaccines.  They're hoping for the Western vaccines.  😂

Trump had to get reelected. He knew if he publicly acknowledged the severity of the virus - and advocated science - it would both ruin his “economy” and election chances.

 

Hence why Trump controlled the narrative and castrated science. 
 

Result? One of the worst infection and death rate of developed countries.  
 

We all lost. 

[Chef Jim]

13 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Capacity protocols and mask requirements, among others.  Do you have a point or are you just trying to play "gotcha"?

 

No I just have not been to hardly any bars that followed capacity or mask protocols.  Just sounds like your millennial bars are boring.  

4 minutes ago, BillStime said:

Trump had to get reelected. He knew if he publicly acknowledged the severity of the virus - and advocated science - it would both ruin his “economy” and election chances.

 

Hence why Trump controlled the narrative and castrated science. 
 

Result? One of the worst infection and death rate of developed countries.  
 

We all lost. 

 

The downside to a Republic with State Rights and greater freedoms.  I'll take those downsides every single  time.  You can go live in China.  I hear they only had 5,000 Covid deaths.  Sounds like your utopia.  

[Q-baby!]

39 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

 

No I just have not been to hardly any bars that followed capacity or mask protocols.  Just sounds like your millennial bars are boring.  

 

The downside to a Republic with State Rights and greater freedoms.  I'll take those downsides every single  time.  You can go live in China.  I hear they only had 5,000 Covid deaths.  Sounds like your utopia.  

I love Chi-na! 

[SoCal Deek]

So where are Biden’s lockdowns then? Answer...the President doesn’t have that authority in our country. All Biden did was a post office mask mandate. Why? Because that’s FEDERAL land and that’s all he can control. 

[Big Blitz]

The only coup thats happened at the Capitol in the last 4 months:

 

 

 

 

 

If you watched this, and you experienced the following:

 

1. Anger at Jim Jordan

2. Joy watching Fauci

 

 

You're pretty much a lost cause traitor.  

 

We'll be showing this 7 minute exchange to our grandkids explaining "this is how the Republic died.  Everyone was good with letting the State determine every single course of action and decision in your life.  If you even had a decision.  They all said 'it's just a temporary inconvenience!"  

 

 

I appreciate Jordan's reminder that you can't even protest, assemble, or meet with these lunatics because of "the rules" without having to jump thru 8 hoops to do so.  

 

"Oh we'd meet with you but due to CDC recom...."  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But Trump had investments in HCQ!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by Big Blitz

[GaryPinC]

4 hours ago, Chef Jim said:

 

What is a strict lockdown?

 

When you say there is no fudging of the numbers how can this be?  I just looked (and maybe I'm looking at the wrong numbers) but they show less than 5,000 deaths.  

 

I'm don't know how much, if at all, China fudged their numbers.  I believe they did with the Wuhan outbreak.  I just feel strongly that they did beat it as it would be impossible to hide at this point.

 

Strict lockdown?  Well,  studying China's methodology would be valuable.  I have no expertise, just some snippets I heard.  Isolating infected cities, villages, neighborhoods from travel in or out, aggressive contact tracing and isolation of contacts and Covid positives in large indoor public buildings (arenas, theaters, etc) with medical personnel for observation/medical care.  My in-laws weren't allowed to leave their condo and neighborhood area for nearly 1 1/2 months except one person to shop once a day.  If someone in your building tested positive, the entire building was restricted to their homes and mandatory Covid testing until all negative.  Strict penalties for precaution violations when out of house.  Mandated testing by the government if deemed necessary.

[Big Blitz]

Why are all these folks at the draft in masks if "fully vaccinated?"

 

Great message to send to folks on the fence on the vaccine.  

[GaryPinC]

5 hours ago, BillStime said:

Trump had to get reelected. He knew if he publicly acknowledged the severity of the virus - and advocated science - it would both ruin his “economy” and election chances.

 

Hence why Trump controlled the narrative and castrated science. 
 

Result? One of the worst infection and death rate of developed countries.  
 

We all lost. 

Trump didn't castrate anything.  The science was very much a mess when lockdowns were initiated, science takes time and numbers then more time and repeat.

 

He failed badly in setting a cohesive national response encouraging consistent precaution and civic duty.

 

But then you had the left wing and MSM panic-***** every facet of this in a lecturing tone.  Equally helpful.

[BillStime]

3 minutes ago, GaryPinC said:

Trump didn't castrate anything.  The science was very much a mess when lockdowns were initiated, science takes time and numbers then more time and repeat.

 

He failed badly in setting a cohesive national response encouraging consistent precaution and civic duty.

 

But then you had the left wing and MSM panic-***** every facet of this in a lecturing tone.  Equally helpful.

The Trump administration muzzled science - plenty of evidence out there.  He politicized the whole entire thing because he knew death, masks and lockdowns didn’t look good for him. So he denied it all and lots of people died.

 

Oh - keep blaming the MSM... very Trumpian of you. Always someone else’s fault 

[GaryPinC]

7 hours ago, BillStime said:

The Trump administration muzzled science - plenty of evidence out there.  He politicized the whole entire thing because he knew death, masks and lockdowns didn’t look good for him. So he denied it all and lots of people died.

 

Oh - keep blaming the MSM... very Trumpian of you. Always someone else’s fault 

Trump ignored plenty of the science, even mocked some of it.  I can personally tell you Ohio followed the science.  It appears most of the governors in this country did also.  Right from the CDC.

 

If you can rail on Trump but fail to see how the MSM has little to no journalistic integrity on political issues, then you are a larger problem than Trump.  Mistrust in our media is shared by middle-of-the-road people such as myself and facilitated widespread acceptance of the alt right media.

 

It's one of our largest challenges as a nation, and crucial for bringing us back together, IMO.

[All_Pro_Bills]

7 hours ago, BillStime said:

The Trump administration muzzled science - plenty of evidence out there.  He politicized the whole entire thing because he knew death, masks and lockdowns didn’t look good for him. So he denied it all and lots of people died.

 

Oh - keep blaming the MSM... very Trumpian of you. Always someone else’s fault 

Always someone else's fault!  That's a good insight.  I can certainly concede to the point Trump dodged responsibility.  Its one of the reasons he lost the election. 

 

But isn't blaming someone else the basis of all liberal ideology?  Without a doubt it is.  Now I'm not suggesting they have a monopoly on skirting blame but its their  number one go-to move for sure.  To prove it all you have to do is listen to their words, look at their actions, and at what remedies they propose.  Always and everywhere absolving the "victim" of any and all responsibility for any and all outcomes.       

 

 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

8 hours ago, GaryPinC said:

Trump didn't castrate anything.  The science was very much a mess when lockdowns were initiated, science takes time and numbers then more time and repeat.

 

He failed badly in setting a cohesive national response encouraging consistent precaution and civic duty.

 

But then you had the left wing and MSM panic-***** every facet of this in a lecturing tone.  Equally helpful.

Do you think the US fudged our numbers?  
 

I understand your perspective on Trump and national strategy—as well as left wing/MSM panic, but we never actually had a lockdown regardless of which perspective one takes on this.  We had many, many folks complying, masking up, staying home.  We had some folks not complying and going about their day as best as possible.  We had massive gatherings week after week after week with people from all walks of life arriving from parts unknown.

 

We had Trump and his angle. 

We had the Dems and their angle. 

We had science rationally speaking to the compliant and whistling through the graveyard on the other. 

We had the MSM wringing their hands with a daily death count, ignoring any investigative work into spread caused by mass gatherings, and the infection/count reporting changing in tone around January. 
 

It was exceptionally difficult to trust any of the parties involved. 
 

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by leh-nerd skin-erd

[SoCal Deek]

I’m curious what people think of the latest numbers. We’re still hovering right under 1,000 deaths per day even after so many are vaccinated. I honestly thought that number would be way down by now. I don’t know think it’s all that different from last May when we of course didn’t have a vaccine. Thoughts? 

[dpberr]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’m curious what people think of the latest numbers. We’re still hovering right under 1,000 deaths per day even after so many are vaccinated. I honestly thought that number would be way down by now. I don’t know think it’s all that different from last May when we of course didn’t have a vaccine. Thoughts? 

 

The vaccine isn't as effective out in the wilderness of the unhealthy American body.  When you read through the pages of people Pfizer and Moderna excluded from the testing, you come to the conclusion that yes, the vaccine works great in a relatively healthy body that doesn't have a lot of problems.  it's augmenting an already capable immune defense.  Problem is America as a whole, is exceptionally unhealthy.   

 

I don't think its efficacy is anywhere as high in the morbidly obese, those with cancers, those with diabetes, those with chronic inflammation, or those extremely vitamin deficient and that covers a large swath of America.   It's not a miracle drug.  

[Chef Jim]

2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’m curious what people think of the latest numbers. We’re still hovering right under 1,000 deaths per day even after so many are vaccinated. I honestly thought that number would be way down by now. I don’t know think it’s all that different from last May when we of course didn’t have a vaccine. Thoughts? 

 

It's over man!!  No one is dying any longer.  Deaths stopped the minute Biden was sworn in.  100 days of gloriousness!  

[Big Blitz]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

China rn.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Big Blitz

[Unforgiven]

Well alrigh...err wait a minute...

Aren't travel bans raysis??????

[Chef Jim]

A good friend and classmate from WNY works at the US Embassy I Mumbai. 

[Big Blitz]

Remember when we "sheltered in place" because we had to science or something?  

 

Remember when we had to contact trace and test everyone?   

 

 

 

We still obey these people. 

 

Pathetic.  

 

 

[GaryPinC]

23 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Do you think the US fudged our numbers?  
 

I understand your perspective on Trump and national strategy—as well as left wing/MSM panic, but we never actually had a lockdown regardless of which perspective one takes on this.  We had many, many folks complying, masking up, staying home.  We had some folks not complying and going about their day as best as possible.  We had massive gatherings week after week after week with people from all walks of life arriving from parts unknown.

 

We had Trump and his angle. 

We had the Dems and their angle. 

We had science rationally speaking to the compliant and whistling through the graveyard on the other. 

We had the MSM wringing their hands with a daily death count, ignoring any investigative work into spread caused by mass gatherings, and the infection/count reporting changing in tone around January. 
 

It was exceptionally difficult to trust any of the parties involved. 
 

 

Do I think the US fudged their numbers?  Yes, during lockdown at the hospital level, especially smaller hospitals.  

Do I think this "fudging" was frequent enough to overstate the severity of the pandemic?  Nope.  There's clearly a consistency of problem across the world with India and Brazil currently center stage.

 

We did actually have a lockdown, at least here in Ohio and New York and I think in most other states in the US.  I don't know how you argue we didn't.  Businesses shuttered, stay-at-home orders, travel bans.  Were they very effective compared to the Chinese?  Nope, and they weren't strictly enforced because so many people refused to believe they were necessary.  So lockdown to the point where extremists don't take us into anarchy.

 

I understand where you're coming from on all the angles, but at some point you've got to apply some common sense with the big picture.  Health systems were being quickly overwhelmed in Europe and China before Covid even got going here.  That continues to this day.  How are we not a thoughtful enough society to be proactive and participate fully to prevent that here?

 

All this is just a ploy by politicians to control us?  The largest authoritarian country in the world has been mask free for a full year and carrying on normally with their lives.  How ######ed is the notion that free societies are being manipulated by our leaders using this pandemic for long term subjugation?

 

But, more to the heart of the matter your post hints at, we had poor leadership at the federal level, including the CDC.  There needed to be some leadership about what we know and what we don't know and how that was changing real time in addition to the recommendations for moving forward.  

 

I don't argue with Trump allowing governor leadership but he failed completely to rally the American people to pull together and beat this.   Supposedly he hid the problem early on to avoid scaring people.

We honestly needed a well-thought scare from him.  Too many people needed to see images/videos of people dying horribly in the hospitals but the hospitals don't allow those images to be captured. 

 

Sadly, that is what it would have taken for so many to stop nit-picking, questioning and simply pull together.

[GaryPinC]

21 hours ago, dpberr said:

 

The vaccine isn't as effective out in the wilderness of the unhealthy American body.  When you read through the pages of people Pfizer and Moderna excluded from the testing, you come to the conclusion that yes, the vaccine works great in a relatively healthy body that doesn't have a lot of problems.  it's augmenting an already capable immune defense.  Problem is America as a whole, is exceptionally unhealthy.   

 

I don't think its efficacy is anywhere as high in the morbidly obese, those with cancers, those with diabetes, those with chronic inflammation, or those extremely vitamin deficient and that covers a large swath of America.   It's not a miracle drug.  

And just how ineffective is it for "unhealthy" people?   I would argue we're not "exceptionally" unhealthy.  Statistical significance in a blinded, randomized, quality clinical trial is a difficult thing to attain.  Of course you control with the most "healthy" people to clearly judge efficacy then follow through with the rest later.  Especially in a pandemic when you are conducting shortened clinical trials to give society a rapid answer.

 

The mRNA vaccines were taken to market in less than a year, each tested in over 30,000 people.  Numbers are showing they greatly lower infection and transmission rates, they lower hospitalization and especially death rates.  With a minimum of serious side effects in a previously unproven technology.  They also modified the spike protein to more effectively train the immune system.  The sum of that in less than a year qualifies as a miracle IMO, but you do you.

 

It is common sense to assume the vaccines won't be as effective for those with underlying comorbidities.  But it is not common sense to simply assume they are markedly less effective in this patient population.  Do you have any published studies that quantify the loss of efficacy?  

[SoCal Deek]

47 minutes ago, GaryPinC said:

Do I think the US fudged their numbers?  Yes, during lockdown at the hospital level, especially smaller hospitals.  

Do I think this "fudging" was frequent enough to overstate the severity of the pandemic?  Nope.  There's clearly a consistency of problem across the world with India and Brazil currently center stage.

 

We did actually have a lockdown, at least here in Ohio and New York and I think in most other states in the US.  I don't know how you argue we didn't.  Businesses shuttered, stay-at-home orders, travel bans.  Were they very effective compared to the Chinese?  Nope, and they weren't strictly enforced because so many people refused to believe they were necessary.  So lockdown to the point where extremists don't take us into anarchy.

 

I understand where you're coming from on all the angles, but at some point you've got to apply some common sense with the big picture.  Health systems were being quickly overwhelmed in Europe and China before Covid even got going here.  That continues to this day.  How are we not a thoughtful enough society to be proactive and participate fully to prevent that here?

 

All this is just a ploy by politicians to control us?  The largest authoritarian country in the world has been mask free for a full year and carrying on normally with their lives.  How ######ed is the notion that free societies are being manipulated by our leaders using this pandemic for long term subjugation?

 

But, more to the heart of the matter your post hints at, we had poor leadership at the federal level, including the CDC.  There needed to be some leadership about what we know and what we don't know and how that was changing real time in addition to the recommendations for moving forward.  

 

I don't argue with Trump allowing governor leadership but he failed completely to rally the American people to pull together and beat this.   Supposedly he hid the problem early on to avoid scaring people.

We honestly needed a well-thought scare from him.  Too many people needed to see images/videos of people dying horribly in the hospitals but the hospitals don't allow those images to be captured. 

 

Sadly, that is what it would have taken for so many to stop nit-picking, questioning and simply pull together.

This is a complex issue for sure but I don’t think it’s possible for me to disagree on almost every single one of your conclusions any more fervently than I do. 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

33 minutes ago, GaryPinC said:

Do I think the US fudged their numbers?  Yes, during lockdown at the hospital level, especially smaller hospitals.  

Do I think this "fudging" was frequent enough to overstate the severity of the pandemic?  Nope.  There's clearly a consistency of problem across the world with India and Brazil currently center stage.

 

We did actually have a lockdown, at least here in Ohio and New York and I think in most other states in the US.  I don't know how you argue we didn't.  Businesses shuttered, stay-at-home orders, travel bans.  Were they very effective compared to the Chinese?  Nope, and they weren't strictly enforced because so many people refused to believe they were necessary.  So lockdown to the point where extremists don't take us into anarchy.

 

I understand where you're coming from on all the angles, but at some point you've got to apply some common sense with the big picture.  Health systems were being quickly overwhelmed in Europe and China before Covid even got going here.  That continues to this day.  How are we not a thoughtful enough society to be proactive and participate fully to prevent that here?

 

All this is just a ploy by politicians to control us?  The largest authoritarian country in the world has been mask free for a full year and carrying on normally with their lives.  How ######ed is the notion that free societies are being manipulated by our leaders using this pandemic for long term subjugation?

 

But, more to the heart of the matter your post hints at, we had poor leadership at the federal level, including the CDC.  There needed to be some leadership about what we know and what we don't know and how that was changing real time in addition to the recommendations for moving forward.  

 

I don't argue with Trump allowing governor leadership but he failed completely to rally the American people to pull together and beat this.   Supposedly he hid the problem early on to avoid scaring people.

We honestly needed a well-thought scare from him.  Too many people needed to see images/videos of people dying horribly in the hospitals but the hospitals don't allow those images to be captured. 

 

Sadly, that is what it would have taken for so many to stop nit-picking, questioning and simply pull together.

At one point the numbers were projected to be 25% high.  Anecdotally, my neighbor passed away after 6 months of intestinal issues, blockages, sustained diarrhea, inability to thrive all post-cancer treatment, developed COVID in her final hours and was a victim of COVID.  In a country of 330m it’s fair to wonder how many other cases followed that path.
 

Also, as pointed out by another poster, we’re losing 1000 people a day yet suddenly restrictions are being lifted?  300,000 victims is acceptable?  

 

I really don’t want to hound you on this, your reply is thoughtful and I appreciate it.  I rarely get a reply on the confounding question that has bothered me for a year now:

 

In a worldwide pandemic as described above, how on earth can there be any justification to allow protests regardless of the righteous nature of the cause to go unaddressed for months on end?   
 

I’ve been torn on the rationale:

 

1. The understanding that mass gatherings lead to spread, often to the most vulnerable in our society, and suffering and death was the ultimate goal;

2. There was a much greater understanding about how the virus spread and we were lied to or at a minimum, manipulated. 
3. Blissful incompetence;
 

I respect your confidence in the info coming out of China, but I’m a skeptic. 
 

As far as pulling together, I’m a lifetime get-along guy.  I come from a large family, and I’m square in the middle.  However, as I get older, I’m much more mindful of who(m) I meet in the middle and I’m not all that interested in meeting some anymore. 

If it matters, I’ve followed every protocol recommended including quarantining after a trip to Florida when our @$$hole governor came up with his ‘virus don’t spread from adjoining states’ angle. 
 

As for a lockdown, as I said, compliant folks locked down in thought, word and deed.  Tens of thousands ignored the lockdown week after week after week contributing to the spread.  Hardly locked down.  
 

Thanks again.  

[BillStime]

 

 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

31 minutes ago, BillStime said:

 

 

Good for Christie for being objective. 

[Big Blitz]

 

10% of public school kids left in 2021.  

 

I expect that number to jump to 35% as we watch the exact same b.s. play out this summer as it did last year. 

 

School districts string parents along until early August to make decisions they already know right now today they are making despite all those rigged surveys your filling out on "return to learn."  

 

 

Public schools will be mitigating until every kid is vaccinated.  They will be keeping them at half capacity or less, and enforce masking and distancing indefinitely. 

 

[Boatdrinks]

On 4/30/2021 at 8:42 AM, SoCal Deek said:

I’m curious what people think of the latest numbers. We’re still hovering right under 1,000 deaths per day even after so many are vaccinated. I honestly thought that number would be way down by now. I don’t know think it’s all that different from last May when we of course didn’t have a vaccine. Thoughts? 

A lot of Americans are overweight, and our population is aging. Those folks are perfect targets for Covid. Still, the fatality rate is very, very low. Don’t know what the numbers were last May. I don’t care much about the numbers as the vaccine is out there , thanks to Trump. People can get it if they want, or not. Time to move on.