NYG requested permission to interview Daboll for OC - DENIED

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

I agree with most of that and I agree with your reasoning as to why they moved on Shady in favour of Gore. I thought it was the wrong decision then and still do.

 

I'm previously on record as thinking they coulda kept both and cut someone else.  It's not like we were cap-strapped or something.

[Dopey]

5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Heh.  I'm not sure Joe Flacco is an enticing example for folks here.

Let's try Russ Wilson, and note that probable HOF-passers like Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees have both done better in years where their team has a strong rush game.

 

 

I'm not sure we sucked is quite the descriptive - one could say that the problem was we didn't suck enough.

 

We were perpetually mired in mediocrity - never bad enough to get the high draft picks and top talent, never good enough to get to the playoffs.

Point taken.

Other than a year here and there, I never went into a season with much hope of being good. The year of the Music City Miracle and Bledsoe's first 2 years here were the only times I had any real hope of being good in the last 20 years. 

[Nihilarian]

33 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Heh.  I'm not sure Joe Flacco is an enticing example for folks here.

Let's try Russ Wilson, and note that probable HOF-passers like Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees have both done better in years where their team has a strong rush game.

 

Russell Wilson is a very unique individual. Wilson went from 3 years at NC state after he was demoted to back up to Wisconsin where he led them to a big ten conference title an appearance in the Rose Bowl and set a single-season record for passing efficiency, with the highest quarterback rating (191.8) in NCAA history.

 

“Listen, son, you’re never going to play in the National Football League. You’re too small. There’s no chance. You’ve got no shot.”

These are the words that former North Carolina State head football coach Tom O’Brien uttered on a phone call with one of his quarterbacks in the spring of 2011

 

https://theundefeated.com/features/the-long-and-the-short-of-is-that-russell-wilson-proved-his-college-coach-wrong/

 

 

Don't get me wrong here as i'm not advocating for the Bills RB's to carry the team as I'm fine with a balanced attack. However, I simply think its ludicrous to ask the QB to throw 35-40 times a game when you have a perfectly good RB, run game. Particularly throwing into the teeth of a defense or if you have a lead. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

24 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Maybe I'm wrong, and I don't want to get in the middle of a dispute between two of the best posters on this board

 

Aw, c'mon in!  "Plenty of room down cellar in a teacup!"

 

24 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

but I think what you're saying is the coaching staff has to be serious when they say they want fearless play and they have to convey that especially in the way they handle Allen. Allen can't play scared or feel as if he's being managed so that the priority on offense is don't make mistakes and let the defense win it for you. Naturally, being careless with the ball will hurt you big time, but Allen's swagger is part of what makes him a winner and you don't want to get in his head to the point where he is primarily afraid to make mistakes.

 

I think they went through a stretch of that with Allen where they had a "Come to Jesus!" meeting with him after the NE game and told him that if he kept throwing the ball to the other team and running head-first into other human beings, he'd be playing left bench for Barkley and out of the league in 2 years if not sooner.  Told him he needed to fix his stinkin' thinkin' and make it an actual priority to take care of the ball, not just give it lip service.

 

And I think it it did get in his head, but I think to avoid developing a la Jameis Winston, they had to go there.  Then after the Browns game, where Daboll tried to hang the game on his arm and he threw a career high number of passes with 0 int and one short-yardage sack and ALMOST pulled it off, they said "I think you've Got It" and gave him the "green light"

[Billsfan1972]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think what they should be doing is focussing on developing their inexperienced QB into a star QB. And they don't do that running it 40 times a game.

And that is what they should have done this year (i.e. 3 years into THE Process).....  

 

This was the year to see what they have in Allen.   What if he really is no good?  Do we start again and give the staff another 3 years?

 

No they worry primarily about the D.

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Good post, Shaw.  I'm just going to hone in on one thing:

 

 

Let me put bottom line up front, and say I devoutly hope you are wrong.

 

This is NOT in fact how McDermott has operated on defense.  After Horrible Harry went down with his ACL, McDermott tried to run the defense with the guys he had - Kyle Peko for example.  Peko did NOT cut the mustard, and after that became clear vs. Philly, they cut him and brought in Corey Liuget on a 1 year.  And it helped.  Vincent Taylor was also an early-season add who didn't go through OTAs and practice squad.

 

So much for not "bringing in a guy mid season".  When it's needed to keep the defense from crapping the bed after a player is lost to injury, he does it and makes it work.

 

Spain is a 1 year rental.  So is Gore.  So much for "wants guys for multiple years"  There are a bunch of mid-season adds in 2017 and 2018 but I'll leave it to this season.  Pretty sure there are more, just not doing the research at the moment.  I know they IR'd Maurice Alexander after the Iggles game and think they added a LB to our PS or maybe the roster.

 

The point is, McDermott has made moves to shore up the defense after injury.  So why not make a move to shore up the offense after injury?

 

I'll tell you why I think.  I think it's that Daboll's offense is so complex that a player brought in mid-season who isn't already pretty familiar with a similar PE system would have a better chance of flying than of mastering it.  I think it's so complex that players like Foster and Williams are struggling with its 2019 incarnation, badly.  I think it's so complex that Beane felt motivated to mention "we need to find out how intelligent they are...Brian's offense is very complex" as a key factor for WR e v a l in his post season presser.

 

And if I'm right, that's a problem, because injuries WILL happen, and places where the roster is not as good as they thought going into the season WILL happen, and we need to be able to bring in talent.

 

There's quite the list of playoff teams this year that added a player mid-season on offense to their benefit including the Ravens, Patriots, 49ers, and Seahawks.  If we aren't willing and able to do this, we are forfeiting an important competitive advantage.  The practice squad isn't big enough (and it's too restrictive in terms of experience limits) to handle all contingencies.

 

 

 

I'm loving this thread.

 

I think you're making my point.   I think what you say about complex is exactly right, and that's why guys with experience in the system play beyond the time many of us think they should.  

 

Taylor, Liuget and Peko have one big thing in common.  They all play the same position, the single position on the team, offense or defense, where scheme and system are least important.   Plus, they're guys brought in to take 15-20 snaps a game, more if they work out, but 15-20 is all they're really hoping for when the Bills bring them in.   There's no position on the offense that can accept a part time player new to the system.  

 

Gore and Spain fit EXACTLY what Beane says.  Exactly.   Free agency is used to fill holes, not to build the team.  Morse is the only exception, I think, since Beane has been here.   He isn't looking for long-term players in free agency; he's looking for guys who can be useful on the team while they fill out the team in the draft.   

 

I'm not saying the Bills won't ever bring in additions to the offense in mid-season; I'm saying that's not what Beane wants to do.    And in the case of the 2019 Bills, there were no mid-season additions necessary.   No one got injured.   They had the linemen they had, and there was no upgrade available mid-season.   There were no receivers they were going to unseat with some mid-season free agent.  No running backs - Yeldon's knowledge of the system was more valuable than any running back they could have brought in. 

 

And, by the way, I like the approach to complex offense.  Complex offense is what makes your team difficult to defend.   Allen is learning to lead a complex offense.   Youngsters are beginning to work their way into it.   They need at least one more year of young talent, probably two.  

[Dr. Who]

6 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I'm loving this thread.

 

And, by the way, I like the approach to complex offense.  Complex offense is what makes your team difficult to defend.   Allen is learning to lead a complex offense.   Youngsters are beginning to work their way into it.   They need at least one more year of young talent, probably two.  

Agree this is a very substantive thread . . . all because the Giants wanted Daboll for DC. I'm not sure you're right about the complex offense assertion. It might be true and seems logically plausible. And the game changes, but what I'm thinking is the K-gun did not seem overly complex. Was it? Seemed to me you could run multiple plays out of the same formation, that's great, but mainly we ran a number of plays very well and when one added Kelly's creativity and the fast pace, it was tough to stop. Just seems to me that Allen would thrive in that environment and I'm not sure calculus and football really go together.

[Shaw66]

27 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Agree this is a very substantive thread . . . all because the Giants wanted Daboll for DC. I'm not sure you're right about the complex offense assertion. It might be true and seems logically plausible. And the game changes, but what I'm thinking is the K-gun did not seem overly complex. Was it? Seemed to me you could run multiple plays out of the same formation, that's great, but mainly we ran a number of plays very well and when one added Kelly's creativity and the fast pace, it was tough to stop. Just seems to me that Allen would thrive in that environment and I'm not sure calculus and football really go together.

I think the point of a complex offense, and I think this is something McDermott really believes in, is that with a complex offense you can adjust your style of play to attack any defense.  

 

A lot has been said about the Ravens game, and about how the Ravens zero blitz approach was known and the Bills weren't prepared for it.   I don't know if they weren't prepared or they were prepared by couldn't execute.   In any case, the point of a complex offense is that it fill your tool box with all the tools you need, regardless of what the defense is giving you. 

 

In addition, it makes it difficult for the defense to prepare for you, because they're forced to prepare for everything.  

[Billsfan1972]

My issue with all this is that the Bills by drafting Allen should have been all in & worked hard to see what they had in him this year.  Too often we heard & saw game manager & you expect more from the "franchise" qb. 

 

As others said & those who believe in the Process, we are a year further in & they should have a better idea what they have in JA.  

 

I look at bad games like the Pats (wk 4) or Philly & then saw a lot of games where one could say Allen was good or blame the OC.  We saw games where the Bills were good for maybe 2-3 quarters. The only really good games were Miami X 2 & Dallas.  

 

I look at Baltimore 14 & NE Week 16 & 100% hope it was Daboll & bad play calling that stunted Allen.  

 

My point is simple as per this thread.  If the Giants (or Cleveland) think Daboll so good, then that means he's gotten everything he can out of Allen and was able to with a "sub-par" QB generate the 24th ranked Offense in the NFL.

 

I hope however I am right & in-spite of a lousy OC, Allen was able to generate the 24th ranked offense!!!!!? 

[reddogblitz]

11 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The Broncos have a prolific offensive head coach? 

 

No.  Good point.

[ColoradoBills]

I took a break from the board these past couple of weeks.  

This turned into a pretty good thread with some interesting points.

 

Bottom line IMO seems to go like this.

Beane and McDermott are going with Daboll in the 2020 season.

They BOTH know that the O lacked in many areas but have taken on some of the blame.

 

Beane will make every effort to get better talent (which is definitely needed) for the Offense.

 

McDermott will get even more involved in the offensive side of the ball.

Anyone thinking he is "ignorant" of what a good offense looks like is foolish IMO.

 

Josh Allen's development will still be huge in the coming season.

 

My speculation on Daboll is that this coming season will be a "make of break" year for him as the Bills OC.

Like many others have stated, I believe Daboll's weakest skill is in game play calling adjustments.

If he can become better at that this next year he will succeed.  If he doesn't he probably won't be here in 2021.

 

I'm looking forward to see what moves are made this spring.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

3 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

I took a break from the board these past couple of weeks.  

This turned into a pretty good thread with some interesting points.

 

Bottom line IMO seems to go like this.

Beane and McDermott are going with Daboll in the 2020 season.

They BOTH know that the O lacked in many areas but have taken on some of the blame.

 

Beane will make every effort to get better talent (which is definitely needed) for the Offense.

 

McDermott will get even more involved in the offensive side of the ball.

Anyone thinking he is "ignorant" of what a good offense looks like is foolish IMO.

 

Josh Allen's development will still be huge in the coming season.

 

My speculation on Daboll is that this coming season will be a "make of break" year for him as the Bills OC.

Like many others have stated, I believe Daboll's weakest skill is in game play calling adjustments.

If he can become better at that this next year he will succeed.  If he doesn't he probably won't be here in 2021.

 

I'm looking forward to see what moves are made this spring.

 

 

...it has to be CB......he got a pass in 20128 because "it's the personnel stupid"......so McBeane upgrades the offense and yes, there were nine new starters (Allen & Dawkins returned), but Daboll was inconsistent as hell.....things would start working and clicking followed by abandoning what was working.....Daboll or McDermott turtle ball?...who knows.....resume' shows two one year stops as OC followed by two years in Cleveland with HC Mangini.....why one year if the guy shows something?...regime change victim?......plenty of unanswered questions that feed into Bflo's 2019 inconsistencies......so yes, 2020 IS "make it or break it" as you precisely stated.....

[Happy]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I think the point of a complex offense, and I think this is something McDermott really believes in, is that with a complex offense you can adjust your style of play to attack any defense.  

 

A lot has been said about the Ravens game, and about how the Ravens zero blitz approach was known and the Bills weren't prepared for it.   I don't know if they weren't prepared or they were prepared by couldn't execute.   In any case, the point of a complex offense is that it fill your tool box with all the tools you need, regardless of what the defense is giving you. 

 

In addition, it makes it difficult for the defense to prepare for you, because they're forced to prepare for everything.  

 

Agree that a complex offense makes it harder on the opposing defense to defend due to the amount of options that the offense has in its attack arsenal.  But, you have to be able to execute the complex offense, which was part of the problem this year.  I suspect it was too complex for Josh and nine other guys who were new to the team and system.  Daboll might have been more successful this year if he took a step back from what he ultimately wanted to do and and ran the offense in logical progressions, rather than what appeared to be everything at once.

[Coach Tuesday]

4 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Agree that a complex offense makes it harder on the opposing defense to defend due to the amount of options that the offense has in its attack arsenal.  But, you have to be able to execute the complex offense, which was part of the problem this year.  I suspect it was too complex for Josh and nine other guys who were new to the team and system.  Daboll might have been more successful this year if he took a step back from what he ultimately wanted to do and and ran the offense in logical progressions, rather than what appeared to be everything at once.

 

I would posit that you also have to be able to do at least one thing really well, as your go-to and your fallback.  The Bills' offense didn't have that kind of bedrock strength.

[ColoradoBills]

19 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

 

...it has to be CB......he got a pass in 20128 because "it's the personnel stupid"......so McBeane upgrades the offense and yes, there were nine new starters (Allen & Dawkins returned), but Daboll was inconsistent as hell.....things would start working and clicking followed by abandoning what was working.....Daboll or McDermott turtle ball?...who knows.....resume' shows two one year stops as OC followed by two years in Cleveland with HC Mangini.....why one year if the guy shows something?...regime change victim?......plenty of unanswered questions that feed into Bflo's 2019 inconsistencies......so yes, 2020 IS "make it or break it" as you precisely stated.....

 

Yes.  With the exception of the CLE Mangini stint he was cut after the head coach got fired.

 

I'm not sure how much of the O's problems are on Daboll and how much is on other reasons.

I guess Beane and McDermott feel he gets another year and I can see their reasoning.

Hoping it all works out.

7 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Agree that a complex offense makes it harder on the opposing defense to defend due to the amount of options that the offense has in its attack arsenal.  But, you have to be able to execute the complex offense, which was part of the problem this year.  I suspect it was too complex for Josh and nine other guys who were new to the team and system.  Daboll might have been more successful this year if he took a step back from what he ultimately wanted to do and and ran the offense in logical progressions, rather than what appeared to be everything at once.

 

I agree.  The only thing we don't know is if Beane and McDermott agreed and/or told Daboll to do that for Allen's development.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

7 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Yes.  With the exception of the CLE Mangini stint he was cut after the head coach got fired.

 

I'm not sure how much of the O's problems are on Daboll and how much is on other reasons.

I guess Beane and McDermott feel he gets another year and I can see their reasoning.

Hoping it all works out.

 

I agree.  The only thing we don't know is if Beane and McDermott agreed and/or told Daboll to do that for Allen's development.

 

 

...saw some posts here citing Daboll's offense as "far too complex".....fact or fiction?....allow time for nine new starters to adjust?...OR.....Al Saunders type with purported 700 page play book?.....

[ColoradoBills]

2 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

 

...saw some posts here citing Daboll's offense as "far too complex".....fact or fiction?....allow time for nine new starters to adjust?...OR.....Al Saunders type with purported 700 page play book?.....

 

Plenty of evidence that Daboll is running a complex offense.  My question would be is it too complex?

I suspect that they feel Josh Allen can learn to play the NFL game that way.  If he can and they are "fast tracking" him to do just that it may

well be the proper gamble in the long run.  If my speculation is true then it does involve a lot of risk.

As a spectator I can see why this causes a lot of "conflicting" points of view from fans.

 

I guess for me personally I have bought into Beane and McDermott's system enough to trust they will make the right decisions.

 

I'm just an amateur at this stuff but it seems the complexity of the system is due to what happens inside a particular play and NOT having too many plays. 

[Shaw66]

37 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Agree that a complex offense makes it harder on the opposing defense to defend due to the amount of options that the offense has in its attack arsenal.  But, you have to be able to execute the complex offense, which was part of the problem this year.  I suspect it was too complex for Josh and nine other guys who were new to the team and system.  Daboll might have been more successful this year if he took a step back from what he ultimately wanted to do and and ran the offense in logical progressions, rather than what appeared to be everything at once.

I suspect you're right that it was too complex for Josh at times.   

 

But McDermott addressed that last year.  When asked about dumbing down the playbook for his rookie QB, he said everyone has a job to do.   Each guy is asked to do what the job is.  They're not going to ask players to do something less than the job.   Allen was expected to execute the entire offense last season, and he was expected to do it this season.   Part of the benefit of continuity of OC and QB is that the QB can grow into the complexity.  And the OC can grow into technique for making the whole playbook effective.  

[Happy]

40 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Yes.  With the exception of the CLE Mangini stint he was cut after the head coach got fired.

 

I'm not sure how much of the O's problems are on Daboll and how much is on other reasons.

I guess Beane and McDermott feel he gets another year and I can see their reasoning.

Hoping it all works out.

 

I agree.  The only thing we don't know is if Beane and McDermott agreed and/or told Daboll to do that for Allen's development.

 

7 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I suspect you're right that it was too complex for Josh at times.   

 

But McDermott addressed that last year.  When asked about dumbing down the playbook for his rookie QB, he said everyone has a job to do.   Each guy is asked to do what the job is.  They're not going to ask players to do something less than the job.   Allen was expected to execute the entire offense last season, and he was expected to do it this season.   Part of the benefit of continuity of OC and QB is that the QB can grow into the complexity.  And the OC can grow into technique for making the whole playbook effective.  

 

You both could be right, that McD wanted Daboll to roll out and have Josh run the full offense, in which case they had to have known scoring production would suffer.  Maybe they were ok with it and it played into "the process" where Josh learns in a trial by fire manner.  I guess it depends on your view of learning and growing to say if this was a good idea or not.  I personally don't think so, but I'm just a fan.  Next year has to be, and should be, better offensively.

 

I am concerned about the blocking scheme, especially on passing plays; the protection broke down easily too often.  That needs to be fixed, either by personnel or scheme adjustment.

39 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

 

...saw some posts here citing Daboll's offense as "far too complex".....fact or fiction?....allow time for nine new starters to adjust?...OR.....Al Saunders type with purported 700 page play book?.....

 

John Brown made a comment earlier this season that this is the most complex offense he has been in.  I haven't heard any of the other veterans comment about it, but I would think there is at least some truth to it.  The passing plays appeared to take a while to develop and/or Josh wasn't trusting or understanding what he was seeing.

[ColoradoBills]

5 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

 

You both could be right, that McD wanted Daboll to roll out and have Josh run the full offense, in which case they had to have known scoring production would suffer.  Maybe they were ok with it and it played into "the process" where Josh learns in a trial by fire manner.  I guess it depends on your view of learning and growing to say if this was a good idea or not.  I personally don't think so, but I'm just a fan.  Next year has to be, and should be, better offensively.

 

I am concerned about the blocking scheme, especially on passing plays; the protection broke down easily too often.  That needs to be fixed, either by personnel or scheme adjustment.

 

I don't know either.  I do believe it's their thought process though.

 

Yes to the pass blocking.  Everything needs to improve some and that includes JA learning to move properly in the pocket and reading the

pressure better.

[BigBillsFan]

It's so complex the offense hasn't figured it out

Edited January 17, 2020 by BigBillsFan

[Shaw66]

9 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I don't know either.  I do believe it's their thought process though.

 

Yes to the pass blocking.  Everything needs to improve some and that includes JA learning to move properly in the pocket and reading the

pressure better.

All of this.

 

I say often that I really have very little understanding of how to build a football team.   I spend my time watching what the regime in power does and ask myself whether it makes sense.   

 

I'm high on McDermott and Beane because after listening to them and watching them, I think what they're doing DOES make sense.  That doesn't mean it's the only way, but while they're the guys, it's going to be done their way.

 

As for the best way to get Allen up the learning curve, they've been very clear that their plan was that Allen would sit the first year.   They couldn't stick with the plan, and as they've said, Allen had a rocky first year, but he seems to have survived it.   He was better in 2019, but he had his stretches where he still looked like a rookie.  

[BADOLBILZ]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I want the Bills to win too. But I want them to win Championships. I think the most likely way of the Bills doing that is for Allen to grow into a true franchise Quarterback. To do that we are going to have to let him throw and live with the consequences if he makes some mistakes. You don't learn to read defenses in the passing game handing it off.

 

On Gore specifically - I agree. I never liked that signing. I don't think Brian Daboll was pounding the table to be given Frank Gore. At times were there too many plays where we ran Gore when Singletary could have been on the field? Sure. But equally your second running back as to be a guy capable of carrying it 5 to 8 times a game. I don't believe the Bills front office gave the coaching staff that guy.

 

 

 

Yeah you were wrong about Gore that was a great signing.............but they used him up with 75 highly productive carries plus other full time duty in the first 5 games.

 

Too much too soon.......he was spent after that.

 

They over-used McCoy when he was here too and it was disastrous to his production per touch.

 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

Yeah you were wrong about Gore that was a great signing.............but they used him up with 75 highly productive carries plus other full time duty in the first 5 games.

 

Too much too soon.......he was spent after that.

 

They over-used McCoy when he was here too and it was disastrous to his production per touch.

 

 

Ha. I was not. 

[ColoradoBills]

9 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

All of this.

 

I say often that I really have very little understanding of how to build a football team.   I spend my time watching what the regime in power does and ask myself whether it makes sense.   

 

I'm high on McDermott and Beane because after listening to them and watching them, I think what they're doing DOES make sense.  That doesn't mean it's the only way, but while they're the guys, it's going to be done their way.

 

As for the best way to get Allen up the learning curve, they've been very clear that their plan was that Allen would sit the first year.   They couldn't stick with the plan, and as they've said, Allen had a rocky first year, but he seems to have survived it.   He was better in 2019, but he had his stretches where he still looked like a rookie.  

 

We agree on that Shaw.  

This is the first GM/HC duo that I spend most of my time looking at WHY they are doing what they do versus how many "dumb" things 

that have happened with many of the previous regimes.

 

One thing that makes me feel somewhat confident in them is that some of the questionable moves and decisions they have made they

have admitted their mistakes.  I count those as positive learning experiences.

Let's hope the needle keeps pointing toward the north and Daboll can put a decent performing offense together next season.

[Shaw66]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

Yeah you were wrong about Gore that was a great signing.............but they used him up with 75 highly productive carries plus other full time duty in the first 5 games.

 

Too much too soon.......he was spent after that.

 

They over-used McCoy when he was here too and it was disastrous to his production per touch.

 

Interesting comments.  I never really focused that much on McCoy in this regard, but it was dramatic for Gore.   He was the same Frank Gore we've seen for years during the first quarter of the season, and then he was done.   

 

I don't, however, how much benefit the Bills would have gotten spreading those 75 carries over 16 games.   

[Luka]

I don't care what Daboll says, this offense needs an identity. Are we a running team? Are we a passing team? Your identity dictates your play calling. Your identity dictates what other teams must prepare for. Your identity helps to narrow the scope and improve the execution on a week to week basis. You only deviate from that identity when the other team has proven they have answers for what you can execute perfectly.

 

That lack of identity is why his gameday play calling would often go off the rails. The offense didn't have that safety net of a small group of plays that they could typically execute under any circumstance. They didn't have that "base defense" so to speak. If that doesn't get fixed, the results will be the same next year.

[Shaw66]

1 minute ago, Luka said:

I don't care what Daboll says, this offense needs an identity. Are we a running team? Are we a passing team? Your identity dictates your play calling. Your identity dictates what other teams must prepare for. Your identity helps to narrow the scope and improve the execution on a week to week basis. You only deviate from that identity when the other team has proven they have answers for what you can execute perfectly.

 

That lack of identity is why his gameday play calling would often go off the rails. The offense didn't have that safety net of a small group of plays that they could typically execute under any circumstance. They didn't have that "base defense" so to speak. If that doesn't get fixed, the results will be the same next year.

There's a lot to be said for this perspective.   When all else fails, what can we go back to that we know will work?   I thought that was the short passing game early in the season, but it dried up. 

[reddogblitz]

41 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

As for the best way to get Allen up the learning curve, they've been very clear that their plan was that Allen would sit the first year.   They couldn't stick with the plan, and as they've said, Allen had a rocky first year, but he seems to have survived it. 

 

Things like this is what give me pause about THE PROCESS. 

 

They make some bone headed head scratches like this.  The didn't want Josh to start.  They had a Vet they cut that could have started over Josh.  They didn't sign any vet QBs even though there were many available. Instead they went with the money ball approach and took McCarron and he couldn't make the team. Then they go into the year with Nate Peterman, a guy with only 2 shaky starts under his belt and the rook they didn't want to play. Then when Josh did get hurt they couldn't even play the guy they kept and had to sign street FAs Derek and Baker.  This  didn't just happen to THE PROCESS, it was totally self inflicted.

 

I saw a similar thing this year with RB. We had 4 of them.  1st, Singletary was great but he is small and they didn't want to run him too much cuz they didn't know how much he could take.  2nd string was Gore who they couldn't give it to much because he was 36 years old and after the first 5 games rarely got more than 1 yard per carry. Then they had a 3rd string guy they couldn't even suit up in Yeldon. Why?  Is he a fumbler?  Fumbled once in PS and once in RS.  Did he have a history of fumbler?  Not that I can find.  If he was, why sign him in the first place?  Then we had Penny who I guess wasn't good enough to carry the football.  Oh yeah, we also had a guy that couldn't play this year.  Again, a self inflicted hole.

 

Player personnel decisions have been odd IMHO like in the cases above.

 

Hopefully these kind of blunders are behind us since they've taken ownership and learned.

[BADOLBILZ]

23 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Interesting comments.  I never really focused that much on McCoy in this regard, but it was dramatic for Gore.   He was the same Frank Gore we've seen for years during the first quarter of the season, and then he was done.   

 

I don't, however, how much benefit the Bills would have gotten spreading those 75 carries over 16 games.   

 

 

Probably about 4.5 ypa...........which is where he was at after 5 games and 80 touches.

 

I think they could have given him 100-130 carries distributed more evenly and maintained that kind of production.

 

In general I think older backs need their carries cut about 20% per year.

 

One of my other gripes with McDermott was running McCoy to death in 2017 after a lessened workload had helped him have maybe his most efficient season as a pro in 2016.

 

He hasn't been right since.

 

But less carries helped his production in KC...........he just fumbled too much and lost them a game.

 

One of the reasons they over-fed Gore was because he didn't fumble once in 180 touches.

[BADOLBILZ]

32 minutes ago, Luka said:

I don't care what Daboll says, this offense needs an identity. Are we a running team? Are we a passing team? Your identity dictates your play calling. Your identity dictates what other teams must prepare for. Your identity helps to narrow the scope and improve the execution on a week to week basis. You only deviate from that identity when the other team has proven they have answers for what you can execute perfectly.

 

That lack of identity is why his gameday play calling would often go off the rails. The offense didn't have that safety net of a small group of plays that they could typically execute under any circumstance. They didn't have that "base defense" so to speak. If that doesn't get fixed, the results will be the same next year.

 

 

Exactly............and I get the whole "but the Patriots change their game plan every week and make huge shifts in identity in season" argument.............but that's not the 2002 Patriots that was the Patriots after Brady was in the league for nearly 10 years.   

[Augie]

 

I think another reason Gore got so many plays (especially early) was his reliability on pass protection. Singletary was a rookie, and a small one at that. He had to get up to speed, know where the pressure was coming from, then prove he could keep Josh clean more than not. 

[BADOLBILZ]

58 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Ha. I was not. 

 

 

RB's in general are pretty replaceable but at $2M for 180 touches,  zero fumbles and leadership brought he was probably the best value for the dollar that they got in UFA last year.

 

Just too bad they ran him into the ground because they had no faith in Yeldon and were afraid to add a different RB.    Perhaps out of concern that the offense being a lot to pick up and fear of mistakes.

 

This much is for sure...........they need more RB's that they are actually willing to play next year.

[CheshireCT]

On 1/16/2020 at 2:50 PM, matter2003 said:

This is just stupid...why would a team try to interview someone for a lateral move? As if the team they are requesting permission from is just going to be like "Oh sure, go interview him, we will just find someone else"

 

Yeah, this is a situation where a lot people would be wise to "be careful what you ask for".  We don't know how much Daboll is responsible for Allen's progression from year 1 to year 2, but from people in the know its considered A LOT.  

 

Replace the OC and you could see Allen regress and potentially regress badly from year 2 to year 3.

 

Absolutely. And to continue that train of thought....I’m not sure Bills fans have EVER been happy with the OC. LOL

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

RB's in general are pretty replaceable but at $2M for 180 touches,  zero fumbles and leadership brought he was probably the best value for the dollar that they got in UFA last year.

 

Just too bad they ran him into the ground because they had no faith in Yeldon and were afraid to add a different RB.    Perhaps out of concern that the offense being a lot to pick up and fear of mistakes.

 

This much is for sure...........they need more RB's that they are actually willing to play next year.

 

Agreed.

 

So I was looking into # of carries for our different rushers earlier today and a thought occurred to me.

Could we have committed (in the contract) to Gore, to give him a certain average number of touches per game?

Does such a thing ever happen in player contracts?

 

I could see where being guaranteed a certain # of touches for every game where he's healthy would be more important to Gore than more $$ given that he wanted that run at the record books.  I was just taken aback at how close to 10 attempts per game Gore averaged.  And it got me thinking.

 

Or perhaps I should invest in a tin foil hat.  One with a little pink and orange propeller on top.  But it would solve the mystery of why we kept running Gore and his 1-2 ypc and not Singletary.

 

[Nihilarian]

15 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I think the point of a complex offense, and I think this is something McDermott really believes in, is that with a complex offense you can adjust your style of play to attack any defense.  

 

A lot has been said about the Ravens game, and about how the Ravens zero blitz approach was known and the Bills weren't prepared for it.   I don't know if they weren't prepared or they were prepared by couldn't execute.   In any case, the point of a complex offense is that it fill your tool box with all the tools you need, regardless of what the defense is giving you. 

 

In addition, it makes it difficult for the defense to prepare for you, because they're forced to prepare for everything.  

How did that "complex" offense work against the Patriots, Ravens, Texans? Truth is it didn't! Come to think of it the 2019 Bills were still 26th in passing yards, 24th in passing TD's. About on par for Brian Daboll with his 6 years of experienced as an NFL OC with four different teams.

 

Anyway, the Bills did attempt to defeat that cover o blitz by having Allen throw deep a few times early in that game and when he didn't complete any of those deep passes that Ravens defense that blitzed around 50% of the time stepped up their blitzes to 60% or more. Hitting a deep bomb against a defense using cover o works because there is no deep safety to keep that play from becoming a TD. 

 

Still, there is more than one way to defeat that blitz with screens, hot reads or the deep post. Simply step up the protections by adding extra tight ends, tackles to block the extra man if they have a star pass rusher.  The Ravens and Patriots defenses work because they have such good secondaries that can run man coverage's. The Patriots cover o works well because as soon as a blitzer is blocked he drops into coverage.

 

Bottom line: basically the Bills OC did try to defeat the cover o blitz and when his first plan didn't work he had no answer the rest of the game, 39 pass attempts, 6 sacks.

 

This is a way to ruin a QB. We all watched as the Bills lame OC's ruined JP, ruined, Edwards, ruined EJ. Destroying a young, inexperienced QB's confidence and demoralizing him is not the way to forcing him into greatness. 

 

Can anyone guess how many QB's in the league can beat a blitz consistently, not many! Two of the greatest in defeating a blitz are Peyton Manning and Tom Brady.

 

The late great Bill Walsh stated it generally takes four years of playing in the NFL to fully develop an NFL QB. When you force a young player into a sped up process, will that make him learn faster? I dunno, takes four years of undergrad degree, four years of med school and 3-7 years of residency to become a doctor in the US. Think forcing him to learn faster will make him a better doctor?

 

[GunnerBill]

53 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

 

The late great Bill Walsh stated it generally takes four years of playing in the NFL to fully develop an NFL QB. When you force a young player into a sped up process, will that make him learn faster? I dunno, takes four years of undergrad degree, four years of med school and 3-7 years of residency to become a doctor in the US. Think forcing him to learn faster will make him a better doctor?

 

 

False analogy because in those years as a resident they are practicing the skills to be a doctor in live situations. Indeed in life and death situations often. Your proposal for Josh is for him to learn by not doing. He will not learn how to drop back in the pocket, read defenses quickly and throw quickly by turning around and handing off. 

 

Peyton Manning said it himself. He was told his first 3 years you will make mistakes, don't worry about them. Bill Parcells (known as a run the ball and play defense guy) used to tell a young Phil Simms "if you ain't throwing picks you ain't trying." You don't develop young Quarterbacks by hiding them. You develop them by trusting them and allowing them to make mistakes. 

[Nihilarian]

12 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

As for the best way to get Allen up the learning curve, they've been very clear that their plan was that Allen would sit the first year.   They couldn't stick with the plan, and as they've said, Allen had a rocky first year, but he seems to have survived it.   He was better in 2019, but he had his stretches where he still looked like a rookie.  

When Raiders GM and past NFL league draft analyst Mike Mayock did his scouting on Josh Allen he stated that he that the greatest potential of that years QB draft class.

 

However, he also stated that Allen was very raw in coming from a college not known for developing QB's. Josh Rosen at UCLA, Sam Darnold at USC, Baker Mayfield at Oklahoma, Lamar Jackson at Louisville all were more polished to start in the NFL their first season and all were in big time college programs that allowed them to develop into NFL ready players.

 

Josh Allen rated as very raw and needed some time on the bench to learn and develop. He was supposed to sit for a season and learn behind a veteran QB and instead he was thrown into the fray because the guy they had pegged as the starting QB (who got all the first string reps) was horrific. How bad was he? 5 of 18 for 24 yards, 2 INTs, 3 sacks in nearly three quarters of a game bad. (BTW, how did that "complex" offense work for Peterman?)

 

Stating that,  in his two games in 2019 QB Matt Barkley took steps backwards too In Daboll's scheme. 2018, one game start 60% completion percentage 117.4 rate, QBR of 83.4.

2019, 2 games 27 of 51 for a 52.9% completion percentage, a rating of 51.0, a QBR of 9.2. Barkley in his NFL career has had a completion percentage of 60% or darn near that in his five seasons...until this year.  

 

2018 Peterman 0-2, 44 of 81 for a 54.3% completion percentage...296 yards, 1 TD, 7 INTs. 

2018 Anderson 0-2, 42 of 70 for a 60% completion percentage...465 yards, 0 TDs, 4 INTs. 

 

So, it's not just Josh Allen with having difficulty in Daboll's offensive scheme. 

 

 

[Shaw66]

3 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

When Raiders GM and past NFL league draft analyst Mike Mayock did his scouting on Josh Allen he stated that he that the greatest potential of that years QB draft class.

 

However, he also stated that Allen was very raw in coming from a college not known for developing QB's. Josh Rosen at UCLA, Sam Darnold at USC, Baker Mayfield at Oklahoma, Lamar Jackson at Louisville all were more polished to start in the NFL their first season and all were in big time college programs that allowed them to develop into NFL ready players.

 

Josh Allen rated as very raw and needed some time on the bench to learn and develop. He was supposed to sit for a season and learn behind a veteran QB and instead he was thrown into the fray because the guy they had pegged as the starting QB (who got all the first string reps) was horrific. How bad was he? 5 of 18 for 24 yards, 2 INTs, 3 sacks in nearly three quarters of a game bad. (BTW, how did that "complex" offense work for Peterman?)

 

Stating that,  in his two games in 2019 QB Matt Barkley took steps backwards too In Daboll's scheme. 2018, one game start 60% completion percentage 117.4 rate, QBR of 83.4.

2019, 2 games 27 of 51 for a 52.9% completion percentage, a rating of 51.0, a QBR of 9.2. Barkley in his NFL career has had a completion percentage of 60% or darn near that in his five seasons...until this year.  

 

2018 Peterman 0-2, 44 of 81 for a 54.3% completion percentage...296 yards, 1 TD, 7 INTs. 

2018 Anderson 0-2, 42 of 70 for a 60% completion percentage...465 yards, 0 TDs, 4 INTs. 

 

So, it's not just Josh Allen with having difficulty in Daboll's offensive scheme. 

 

 

Wow, you've really gotten yourself going about this stuff.   I think you're confusing two or three different points, and I'm not sure what your actual point is. 

 

First, I've never bought the notion that QBs are "ruined" by being thrown into the fire too early.   It's absurd, in my mind, to say that Trent Edwards, JP Losman and EJ Manuel were "ruined" because they didn't get more time on the bench.   There wasn't anything anyone was going to do to make any one of those guys franchise QBs.   Troy Aikman wasn't ruined, Peyton Manning wasn't ruined, John Elway wasn't ruined by starting early.   So I don't agree with anything you say about that.

 

Second, the fact that Peterman and Anderson didn't succeed in the Daboll's complicated system doesn't prove that running the system is wrong - it proves that it takes time to learn to run the system.   It simply may be the case that any young QB is going to struggle in his system for a while, and any old mediocre QB is going to struggle in it.   

 

Now, there's a real discussion to be had about whether it would be better to layer on the levels of complexity as your QB masters one level after another.   It doesn't seem that Daboll has done that, and at least based comments I remember, McDermott doesn't believe that's the right approach.   He has said often that he has a scheme and he gives his players that scheme to run and he expects them to grow into it.   You can argue that that's the wrong approach, and I'm sure there are coaches who go about it differently, and I certainly can't prove that you're wrong, but I also don't believe it's possible to prove you're right, either.   In any case, I don't think McDermott is going to ruin Josh Allen doing it this way.    

 

And because I don't think you can ruin Josh Allen by playing him, I think it's irrelevant whether Allen was more NFL ready than Darnold or Rosen or Mayfield.  So what?  That isn't a reason to sit him.   And, by the way, if those guys were more NFL ready (and, by the way, based on his college experience, Lamar Jackson definitely was NOT NFL ready), throwing Allen into the fire seems to have worked, because after two NFL seasons Allen is the best of the top four prospects.   

 

I think the big, fundamental, philosophical difference one can have with what it seems McDermott is doing with the offense is that he seems to be sacrificing, perhaps unnecessarily, short-term success for long-term success.   I think what critics like you really are saying is that McDermott, Daboll and Beane could have done more to make the offense more effective.   Some of that, and the real point of this discussion, is that Daboll should have but wasn't able to accomplish more.  His critics are saying he's been an OC for a long time, and if he wasn't able to do any better in 2019 with what he had, that's pretty good evidence he just isn't good enough.  That is, he's no different than the corner back who just isn't fast enough or the quarterback whose arm just isn't strong enough.  That's a judgment that McDermott and Beane have to make, and it seems they've made it for this year.   It seems that they believe that Daboll can learn to do all that he should be doing, and that it's a good investment to work with him another year.  

 

On that final point, I have to admit that you and others have raised a lot of good points suggesting Daboll just isn't up to the challenge.  A lot of it sounds right to me.   I also have a lot of respect for McDermott, his judgment, and his willingness to make hard decisions, and what McDermott is saying to us is that Daboll is a guy he can build with.   That's enough for me to decide just to be patient and go with it for another year.   

 

 

 

 

[Billsfan1972]

49 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Wow, you've really gotten yourself going about this stuff.   I think you're confusing two or three different points, and I'm not sure what your actual point is. 

 

First, I've never bought the notion that QBs are "ruined" by being thrown into the fire too early.   It's absurd, in my mind, to say that Trent Edwards, JP Losman and EJ Manuel were "ruined" because they didn't get more time on the bench.   There wasn't anything anyone was going to do to make any one of those guys franchise QBs.   Troy Aikman wasn't ruined, Peyton Manning wasn't ruined, John Elway wasn't ruined by starting early.   So I don't agree with anything you say about that.

 

Second, the fact that Peterman and Anderson didn't succeed in the Daboll's complicated system doesn't prove that running the system is wrong - it proves that it takes time to learn to run the system.   It simply may be the case that any young QB is going to struggle in his system for a while, and any old mediocre QB is going to struggle in it.   

 

Now, there's a real discussion to be had about whether it would be better to layer on the levels of complexity as your QB masters one level after another.   It doesn't seem that Daboll has done that, and at least based comments I remember, McDermott doesn't believe that's the right approach.   He has said often that he has a scheme and he gives his players that scheme to run and he expects them to grow into it.   You can argue that that's the wrong approach, and I'm sure there are coaches who go about it differently, and I certainly can't prove that you're wrong, but I also don't believe it's possible to prove you're right, either.   In any case, I don't think McDermott is going to ruin Josh Allen doing it this way.    

 

And because I don't think you can ruin Josh Allen by playing him, I think it's irrelevant whether Allen was more NFL ready than Darnold or Rosen or Mayfield.  So what?  That isn't a reason to sit him.   And, by the way, if those guys were more NFL ready (and, by the way, based on his college experience, Lamar Jackson definitely was NOT NFL ready), throwing Allen into the fire seems to have worked, because after two NFL seasons Allen is the best of the top four prospects.   

 

I think the big, fundamental, philosophical difference one can have with what it seems McDermott is doing with the offense is that he seems to be sacrificing, perhaps unnecessarily, short-term success for long-term success.   I think what critics like you really are saying is that McDermott, Daboll and Beane could have done more to make the offense more effective.   Some of that, and the real point of this discussion, is that Daboll should have but wasn't able to accomplish more.  His critics are saying he's been an OC for a long time, and if he wasn't able to do any better in 2019 with what he had, that's pretty good evidence he just isn't good enough.  That is, he's no different than the corner back who just isn't fast enough or the quarterback whose arm just isn't strong enough.  That's a judgment that McDermott and Beane have to make, and it seems they've made it for this year.   It seems that they believe that Daboll can learn to do all that he should be doing, and that it's a good investment to work with him another year.  

 

On that final point, I have to admit that you and others have raised a lot of good points suggesting Daboll just isn't up to the challenge.  A lot of it sounds right to me.   I also have a lot of respect for McDermott, his judgment, and his willingness to make hard decisions, and what McDermott is saying to us is that Daboll is a guy he can build with.   That's enough for me to decide just to be patient and go with it for another year.   

 

 

 

 

Too much respect for McD imo.

 

The issue is that I wanted to see 2019 be the season of Allen and to have a better understanding of what his potential is.  I thought way too conservative and again at half a season behind in his development.

 

The high point is a 230 yard performance against Dallas.....  Really that's the best we've seen.....

 

I wanted at least 2 eye popping games.  We didn't see it and one then wonders if we ever will under this regime and their talk.

 

How do you attract skill offensive players?  Sell the. That your team was ts to be a top 10 offense..... not 24th and the same OC.