Can someone explain the Tyler Kroft love to me?

[Rc2catch]

18 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Who’s your #1 TE?

Knox is without a doubt the #1 next season. It’s his job to lose. 

Unless they go big name hunting like hooper. 
Knox even while dropping some passes flashed some serious potential as a receiver. 

Edited January 15, 2020 by Rc2catch

[artmalibu]

They bring 90 guys into camp, why shouldnt he be one of them.  Nothing like good camp competition to make a team better....

[Buffalo86]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

Who’s your #1 TE?

 

I'm hopeful that Knox will be the guy, but not confident enough to oppose bringing in Henry or Hooper.  

[LB48]

On 1/13/2020 at 12:17 AM, Bangarang said:

Wait, there’s Kroft love here? I’ve assumed he’s going to be fighting for a roster spot next year and is likely a cap casualty.

I think the Bills wanted him when they looked at their draft board and understood what they had in the organization already!

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

I don’t think I have seen a single person, say a single good thing about the guy. Very strange thread.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

59 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Same.

 

Knox drops way too many easy passes. Not sure that improves.... and that missed block in OT is unforgivable.

 

I'm not sure it's "unforgivable" but I did have to pause the video and get a drink of water in the locker room interview where he talked about "little things"

Buddy, you got your QB given a huge leveling hit instead of a huge running gain, that wasn't little.

 

[Putin]

18 hours ago, Buffalo86 said:

 

I'm hopeful that Knox will be the guy, but not confident enough to oppose bringing in Henry or Hooper.  

I’m with you 100% on bringing it any of the two , but I do believe Knox will be a top TE in the league but until Knox develops we need to give Josh a game breaking TE that we really never had here in Buffalo 

[BurpleBull]

On 1/12/2020 at 11:04 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

I see people assuming we’ll keep him and that we’re kind of set at TE.

 

I’d like to understand the Tyler Kroft love - what do people see in him that’s promising?

 

He kind of had an uninspiring college career at Rutgers.  He backed up Tyler Eifert with the Bengals, did some good stuff in 2017 after Eifert got hurt, then broke his own foot in 2018 and again in 2019 off-season.

 

So he kind of had one good year in 2017.  When given a chance to “show out” this season, he’s seeemd decidedly “meh” to me.

 

What am I missing?  Explain the Kroft love to me.

 

I imagined the guy in Misery breaking his own ankles when I read this.

 

I actually liked what I saw from Kroft in his highlights, I get the feeling he would be a lot more productive in an offense that was a bit more wide open.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 minutes ago, BurpleBull said:

I imagined the guy in Misery breaking his own ankles when I read this.

I actually liked what I saw from Kroft in his highlights, I get the feeling he would be a lot more productive in an offense that was a bit more wide open.

 

So tell me what you liked from Kroft in which highlights, and what you mean by "a bit more wide open"

[Hapless Bills Fan]

19 hours ago, artmalibu said:

They bring 90 guys into camp, why shouldnt he be one of them.  Nothing like good camp competition to make a team better....

 

I think it's more a matter of do you stand pat or move on? 

Kroft is gonna be due $5.6M in salary and roster bonus in 2020.  Add in his amortized signing bonus, that makes him #16 on the TE AAV list or something like that.

 

Spotrac suggests that Hunter Henry or Austin Hooper (if available) would be something like a $9M AAV signing.  I don't know if that's too "deep end of the pool" for Beane, but he's almost certainly not gonna go after one of those guys if he's got a top-20 TE in AAV already on the roster.

 

 

[artmalibu]

13 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think it's more a matter of do you stand pat or move on? 

Kroft is gonna be due $5.6M in salary and roster bonus in 2020.  Add in his amortized signing bonus, that makes him #16 on the TE AAV list or something like that.

 

Spotrac suggests that Hunter Henry or Austin Hooper (if available) would be something like a $9M AAV signing.  I don't know if that's too "deep end of the pool" for Beane, but he's almost certainly not gonna go after one of those guys if he's got a top-20 TE in AAV already on the roster.

 

 

 

I say hedge, no need to make a hard and fast decision at this point.  If they can bring a guy in great!!  At the end of camp Kroft can be cut, and it would very mean little toward the cap.  Cap room is no problem anyway.  If he is cut now and one of the TEs gets a serious injury in camp/preseason the position could take a big step backwards.  

 

I see no real upside to cut now. 

[papazoid]

his dead cap is $1.6

 

they save almost $5 mil by cutting him

 

he's gone

[artmalibu]

6 minutes ago, papazoid said:

his dead cap is $1.6

 

they save almost $5 mil by cutting him

 

he's gone

 

Cant they cut him after preseason and save the 5 mil??

[Dkollidas]

I think they’ll look for an upgrade and cut him. Unable to stay healthy. I don’t know if they’ll go after Hooper, but just a replacement level veteran. 
 

But I think they’ll be looking for a big leap from Knox and Sweeney. Smith will stay on as a blocker. Croom will challenge whoever else is there for the last spot. 

[papazoid]

4 minutes ago, artmalibu said:

 

Cant they cut him after preseason and save the 5 mil??

 

he has a 2020 Roster Bonus of $750,000 due 3/22/2020. likely gone before that comes due

[artmalibu]

5 minutes ago, papazoid said:

 

he has a 2020 Roster Bonus of $750,000 due 3/22/2020. likely gone before that comes due

 

And free agency opens 3/18. 

 

If thy pay him the roster bonus does the dead money go up $750,000?

[BurpleBull]

5 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

So tell me what you liked from Kroft in which highlights, and what you mean by "a bit more wide open"

 

I misstated what I actually watched on Kroft to form my opinion on him when we first signed him; they were actually samples of team highlights that involved him, which gave me an idea of the type of player we were getting: a player with good hands and some quickness. 

 

By a bit more wide open, I mean by resembling offenses who aggressively look to carve up the opposition through the air (ex., Saints, Chiefs, Buccaneers), versus passing a bunch with the intent of getting your young QB in a rhythm and throwing with confidence, while failing to establish overall balance and rhythm on offense in the process; I think there are a bit of passing plays in the Bills' playbook that lack big-play potential simply because of the sets used.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, artmalibu said:

 

Cant they cut him after preseason and save the 5 mil??

 

Not quite, he's owed a $750,000 roster bonus on 3/22 and $2M of his salary guarantees on that date.

 

4 hours ago, artmalibu said:

 

And free agency opens 3/18. 

 

If thy pay him the roster bonus does the dead money go up $750,000?

 

The dead money goes up $2.75M (roster bonus plus guaranteed 2020 salary)

[artmalibu]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Not quite, he's owed a $750,000 roster bonus on 3/22 and $2M of his salary guarantees on that date.

 

 

The dead money goes up $2.75M (roster bonus plus guaranteed 2020 salary)

 

So, a sizable gamble.

Thanks for the details!! 

[Aussie Joe]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Not quite, he's owed a $750,000 roster bonus on 3/22 and $2M of his salary guarantees on that date.

 

 

The dead money goes up $2.75M (roster bonus plus guaranteed 2020 salary)

Show him the door now.. just in case the paperwork goes missing in March..

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 1/13/2020 at 6:34 PM, Nick the Greek said:

Knox maybe. 
 

Sweeney was inactive most weeks until he played in the meaningless game vs the Jets. 
 

I think the coaches take Kroft over Sweeney all day. 

 

If I’m not mistaken, Beane said that Sweeney inactive was a tough call every week, including Houston.  Both he and Kroft were given an opportunity to showcase themselves against the Jets.  Sweeney got 63% of the snaps, Kroft got 47%.  Sweeney 5 targets, 5 receptions; Kroft, 4 targets, 1 reception.

 

Kroft played teams, Sweeney did not.  But I don’t think Kroft is a ST ace; 

 

On 1/14/2020 at 10:29 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm not sure it's "unforgivable" but I did have to pause the video and get a drink of water in the locker room interview where he talked about "little things"

Buddy, you got your QB given a huge leveling hit instead of a huge running gain, that wasn't little.

 

 

OK, gauche to follow up my own post but having listened again to McDermott - Knox is just echoing the kind of language McDermott uses, that it’s often the “little things” that cause failures of execution and become “big things” in game situations.

 

Also, having Andre Reed say that the drops are something that will improve with experience makes me feel better.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Knox and Kroft are fine at TE. They need four front 7 defenders, a WR, and probably a RT. Of course that assumes Allen keeps getting better.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

24 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Knox and Kroft are fine at TE. They need four front 7 defenders, a WR, and probably a RT. Of course that assumes Allen keeps getting better.

 

Why is Kroft fine at TE?  That’s what this thread is about - please explain/give the basis for this viewpoint

[NoSaint]

27 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Why is Kroft fine at TE?  That’s what this thread is about - please explain/give the basis for this viewpoint

I think the issue is defining fine too.

 

He’s not a strength but you can be a successful team with him still. He’d be a little overpaid but whatever, as long as you aren’t counting on him to be an above average guy.

 

we need 1-2 more pass catchers above him. If he prevents you from going after that he is a problem,

Edited January 20, 2020 by NoSaint

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, NoSaint said:

I think the issue is defining fine too.

He’s not a strength but you can be a successful team with him still. He’d be a little overpaid but whatever, as long as you aren’t counting on him to be an above average guy.

we need 1-2 more pass catchers above him. If he prevents you from going after that he is a problem,

 

Fair on "defining fine"

Let's assume we really can't have more than 4 TE on the roster, 3 active on game day. 

So if Kroft is on the team, someone else isn't.  If he's active on game day, someone else isn't.

 

Kroft had 14 targets, 6 receptions for 71 yards in 11 games.  He's not a rookie learning the game; he's a vet who was on the field an average of 34% of the snaps for those 11 games (low of 18%, high of 56%).  Is that "average" for TE?

 

I've seen some good blocking from him, but he also whiffed on a key block vs Hou

 

[Mark Long Beach]

On 1/15/2020 at 6:42 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Not quite, he's owed a $750,000 roster bonus on 3/22 and $2M of his salary guarantees on that date.

 

 

The dead money goes up $2.75M (roster bonus plus guaranteed 2020 salary)

 

Given his high cost and lack of production (mostly due to injury) Kroft is definitely in danger of being cut.   But they liked him and felt he had solid TE capabilities.  I view that he was overpaid early in free agency last year because we had NOBODY at TE.  So he was an expensive insurance policy for a two way tight end.  

 

We think we now have a TE1 in Knox and a TE3 in Sweeney (future TE2?).  I don't think we will keep Kroft at his current insurance level salary.   But if we like him enough we may still keep him at a reduced rate.  I don't think that he'll get too much on the open market with most of a year of injury and a partial year of minimal production.

 

I suspect we'll only keep one of Kroft and Lee Smith.  but if we like Kroft enough (presumably with a reduced salary) I could see us keeping 4 again.

 

Kroft, Smith, Knox & Sweeney.

 

Not too bad.   Some insurance in case Knox's hands don't get better and more time for Sweeney to prove he can replace Smith.

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

29 minutes ago, Mark Long Beach said:

Given his high cost and lack of production (mostly due to injury) Kroft is definitely in danger of being cut.   But they liked him and felt he had solid TE capabilities.  I view that he was overpaid early in free agency last year because we had NOBODY at TE.  So he was an expensive insurance policy for a two way tight end.  

 

We think we now have a TE1 in Knox and a TE3 in Sweeney (future TE2?).  I don't think we will keep Kroft at his current insurance level salary.   But if we like him enough we may still keep him at a reduced rate.  I don't think that he'll get too much on the open market with most of a year of injury and a partial year of minimal production.

 

I suspect we'll only keep one of Kroft and Lee Smith.  but if we like Kroft enough (presumably with a reduced salary) I could see us keeping 4 again.

 

Kroft, Smith, Knox & Sweeney.

 

Not too bad.   Some insurance in case Knox's hands don't get better and more time for Sweeney to prove he can replace Smith.

 

This is just what I don't understand.  Why do we "like Kroft enough"?  What has he shown us? 

 

Played 56% snaps against Philly (2 receptions on 4 targets), 43% against Cle (0 targets), 47% against the Jets (1 reception on 4 targets).   7.6% scored drops which on 14 targets comes to 1 drop, 6 receptions.  

 

I saw a key block from him against the Ravens, but he totally whiffed against Mercilus vs Houston resulting in Allen's fumble.  Is he a killer blocker the rest of the time and I'm just not seeing it? 

 

One might be "maybe he's more used to playing with Barkley" but then you'd expect him to light it up in the Jets game.  2 different QB, 0 lights.

 

If they think he was trying to come back from injury too soon and was gamely playing hampered, maybe you keep him.  But otherwise, why not throw him back in the pond and take out a different "TE insurance policy"?

 

I honestly didn't start this thread to slam on Tyler Kroft.  I was hoping someone would hop in and educate me that he's open all the time and Allen doesn't go to him, or that he's a key blocker whenever he's on the field or something.

 

 

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, Mark Long Beach said:

 

Given his high cost and lack of production (mostly due to injury) Kroft is definitely in danger of being cut.   But they liked him and felt he had solid TE capabilities.  I view that he was overpaid early in free agency last year because we had NOBODY at TE.  So he was an expensive insurance policy for a two way tight end.  

 

We think we now have a TE1 in Knox and a TE3 in Sweeney (future TE2?).  I don't think we will keep Kroft at his current insurance level salary.   But if we like him enough we may still keep him at a reduced rate.  I don't think that he'll get too much on the open market with most of a year of injury and a partial year of minimal production.

 

I suspect we'll only keep one of Kroft and Lee Smith.  but if we like Kroft enough (presumably with a reduced salary) I could see us keeping 4 again.

 

Kroft, Smith, Knox & Sweeney.

 

Not too bad.   Some insurance in case Knox's hands don't get better and more time for Sweeney to prove he can replace Smith.

 

 

I think we have a TE2 in Knox and a TE3 in Sweeney. Sign Hunter Henry as your TE1 and cut Kroft & Croom. Or keep Croom as the deactivated TE4.....

[Mark Long Beach]

23 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I think we have a TE2 in Knox and a TE3 in Sweeney. Sign Hunter Henry as your TE1 and cut Kroft & Croom. Or keep Croom as the deactivated TE4.....

I won't argue with that. There's no Guarantee that Knox keeps getting better and becomes a good TE1.   I sure hope he does.   

 

I wouldn't complain at all if we brought in a top tier TE.  We could end up with a monster 2 TE combination with Sweeney as a really nice backup.  Really good two way TEs aren't cheap and not really plentiful.  It would be nice to have an offensive position with real strength rather than being merely adequate. 

 

I just don't think that we will.   We've already invested a "lot" into the position and have we still have many other needs.  

[MAJBobby]

Tyler Kroft = JAG. 
 

easily replaceable and easily forgettable 

Edited January 21, 2020 by MAJBobby

[Mark Long Beach]

On 1/20/2020 at 11:05 AM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This is just what I don't understand.  Why do we "like Kroft enough"?  What has he shown us? 

 

Played 56% snaps against Philly (2 receptions on 4 targets), 43% against Cle (0 targets), 47% against the Jets (1 reception on 4 targets).   7.6% scored drops which on 14 targets comes to 1 drop, 6 receptions.  

 

I saw a key block from him against the Ravens, but he totally whiffed against Mercilus vs Houston resulting in Allen's fumble.  Is he a killer blocker the rest of the time and I'm just not seeing it? 

 

One might be "maybe he's more used to playing with Barkley" but then you'd expect him to light it up in the Jets game.  2 different QB, 0 lights.

 

If they think he was trying to come back from injury too soon and was gamely playing hampered, maybe you keep him.  But otherwise, why not throw him back in the pond and take out a different "TE insurance policy"?

 

I honestly didn't start this thread to slam on Tyler Kroft.  I was hoping someone would hop in and educate me that he's open all the time and Allen doesn't go to him, or that he's a key blocker whenever he's on the field or something.

 

 

 

Yeah, I agree.  WE as fans haven't seen much from him.   My statement really was: "if the coaches and personnel department" like him from what they've seen of him in meeting rooms and practices they get to make a decision.   There was an article recently about him and how well he did with what he could do while being injured.   

 

But I don't think we keep him at his current salary.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

18 minutes ago, Mark Long Beach said:

 

Yeah, I agree.  WE as fans haven't seen much from him.   My statement really was: "if the coaches and personnel department" like him from what they've seen of him in meeting rooms and practices they get to make a decision.   There was an article recently about him and how well he did with what he could do while being injured.   

 

But I don't think we keep him at his current salary.

 

If there's one place where I have a major "eeek!" about our current coaching staff....it's their judgement on how meeting rooms and practices translate to the field.   I believe that Kroft is the Perfect Backup TE - super helpful to the rookies, super smart in the room.  A Loyal Knight.

 

I want to see blocks and receptions on Sunday.  When he makes a reception and a 1st down is at stake, I want to see an Angry Run.  I want to know what the staff sees in Kroft that gives promise of that. 

 

 

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

As others have pointed out he is at risk for being cut, but I think that would be unwise. He will be an overpaid TE#2 but his contract won't prevent anyone from getting signed in FA. Cutting him only accelerates the cap hit and they would still need to find another TE#2. 

He is a fine #2 and the team has bigger issues to deal with

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

As others have pointed out he is at risk for being cut, but I think that would be unwise. He will be an overpaid TE#2 but his contract won't prevent anyone from getting signed in FA. Cutting him only accelerates the cap hit and they would still need to find another TE#2. 

He is a fine #2 and the team has bigger issues to deal with

 

We need a #1 TE then, or are we just going to trust that Knox steps up?  'cuz Knox ain't there yet.

 

Just my opinion, but I think lacking a true go-to outlet TE (as several other QBs in the playoffs have - more than one even) is a MAJOR lack for the Bills, especially a combo TE who can both block and catch.  We need to put Smith on the field if we really need a block, and someone else if we really need a catch.  No Bueno.

 

Kroft's cap hit if he's cut before the 3rd day of the new league year is relatively small - $1.6M.

If we keep him into Training Camp, he gets $2M guaranteed plus a $750k roster bonus, so the cap hit becomes $4.35M

 

 

[Bobby Hooks]

On 1/13/2020 at 12:04 AM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

What am I missing?  Explain the Kroft love to me.

 

Its pretty easy. Love + Kroft = Kroft love 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

29 minutes ago, Bobby Hooks said:

 

Its pretty easy. Love + Kroft = Kroft love 

 

 

[HOUSE]

On 1/13/2020 at 12:04 AM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

I see people assuming we’ll keep him and that we’re kind of set at TE.

 

I’d like to understand the Tyler Kroft love - what do people see in him that’s promising?

 

He kind of had an uninspiring college career at Rutgers.  He backed up Tyler Eifert with the Bengals, did some good stuff in 2017 after Eifert got hurt, then broke his own foot in 2018 and again in 2019 off-season.

 

So he kind of had one good year in 2017.  When given a chance to “show out” this season, he’s seeemd decidedly “meh” to me.

 

What am I missing?  Explain the Kroft love to me.

 

I am glad he broke his own foot rather then somebody else's....

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 minutes ago, HOUSE said:

 

I am glad he broke his own foot rather then somebody else's....

 

You're such a sweetie-pie! 

I myself would prefer that Kroft break someone else's, or as the more common football idiom goes, their knees.

[HOUSE]

30 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You're such a sweetie-pie! 

I myself would prefer that Kroft break someone else's, or as the more common football idiom goes, their knees.

you are a real darling yourself  big guy

[ColoradoBills]

On 1/15/2020 at 7:42 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Not quite, he's owed a $750,000 roster bonus on 3/22 and $2M of his salary guarantees on that date.

 

 

The dead money goes up $2.75M (roster bonus plus guaranteed 2020 salary)

 

That gives Beane a handful of days to look at the few "higher talent" guys in FA.  I think that will be the plan.

If that doesn't pan out Kroft will stay and maybe they go for a cheap vet FA for competition for Smith/Sweeney.