The Rooney Rule (still) isn’t working?

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, JaCrispy said:

It seemed to work with black QBs in the league...they are more prominent than ever before, and there was no affirmative action rule or legislation that made it that way...people just recognized that those QBs are just as successful or more than whites...

And how long did it take for that to happen?  

[whatdrought]

13 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

Well, I’m fine with teams being required to interview minority candidates...but it seems like Steven A Smith and ESPN are not happy about that, and want more to be done...

 

My issue with that view is that now you’re getting into the arena of trying to decipher intent of the people doing the interviewing and hiring- which is a slippery slope that people shouldn’t want to go down...

 

 

 

Yep. Even NFL media guys like Steve Wyche who tweets something like this:

 

 

This along with a lot of other things he's tweeted, retweeted, and liked, make it seem pretty clear that he believes the Giants passed on Bienemy because of his race which is, I think, offensive to the Giants, and to Judge. It's also slanderous without proof.

 

 

Edit: 

 

Or this little gem, where he conveniently buries the lead about Judge being in charge of a record setting ST unit the past five years:

 

 

 

This bothers me. 

Edited January 8, 2020 by whatdrought

[JaCrispy]

11 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I think this is a great point. Andy Reid’s former crackhead son is coaching in the nfl.  Todd Haley was a college golfer whose dad worked with the Steelers.  Belichick’s weirdo son.  
 

meanwhile, you guys grinding at lower levels who can’t get a sniff at a nfl job yet the same failures get passed around.  

I mean when your sport is something like 70% black and you have like 3% head coaches in the nfl and college, it’s not a good look.  But I don’t know the answer.  Maybe stop giving scrub coaches like Pat Shurmur multiple chances and trying someone new. 

With all due respect, I flat out disagree with this view with every fiber of my being....I disagree that there should be equal representation across all aspects of society based on population of race rather than competence of the individual....An owner should be FREE to choose the best course for HIS business...and while no way is perfect, allowing for more freedom (not less) is always the best way to ensure success...has nothing to do with the “way it looks”.

Edited January 8, 2020 by JaCrispy

[whatdrought]

2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

And how long did it take for that to happen?  

 

Randell Cunningham, Warren Moon, Doug Williams, Steve McNair come to mind. There isn't now, nor has there been historically, a huge number of African American QB's in the NFL, but is there a huge class of A.A. men that have the ability to play QB and wanted to that weren't allowed to? That goes back to using specifics instead of generalities and it's the same conversation as the "why aren't there white Cornerbacks?" rabbit hole. 

[JaCrispy]

11 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

And how long did it take for that to happen?  

Well that’s only because most minorities didn’t play the position back in the day...

 

But once they started playing at younger and younger ages, started playing the position in college, and now it’s prominent in the NFL...the free market worked. ?

 

The talent couldn’t be denied and teams wanted to win!

Edited January 8, 2020 by JaCrispy

[SDS]

49 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I am absolutely with the guys who say NFL Head Coaching interviews should be earned and based on merit rather than on the colour of a person's skin or a person's ethnic background. Absolutely they should be. And the current Rooney rule is acting against that. Perry Fewell gets an interview and the three guys mentioned above (just as examples) don't. That is not a system encouraging merit based opportunity.

 

I don't think this is correct. NFL teams should be embracing the spirit of the Rooney Rule, not looking for ways to check a box. The rule isn't broken per se, the people in charge of implementing it just don't care. There should be active outreach measures looking to uncover great minority talent based on the fact that it is the right thing to do and not some pesky rule the league imposed upon the rich white dudes.

12 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

This bothers me. 

 

I can imagine your hardship.

[whatdrought]

2 minutes ago, SDS said:

I can imagine your hardship.

 

Glad you can emphasize with me for not liking false dichotomy's and unproven accusations of racism. ?

[JaCrispy]

2 minutes ago, SDS said:

 

I don't think this is correct. NFL teams should be embracing the spirit of the Rooney Rule, not looking for ways to check a box. The rule isn't broken per se, the people in charge of implementing it just don't care. There should be active outreach measures looking to uncover great minority talent based on the fact that it is the right thing to do and not some pesky rule the league imposed upon the rich white dudes.

On top of this, if I’m an owner looking for a HC, I want no stone left unturned- I’m looking for the best coaches regardless...

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, SDS said:

 

I don't think this is correct. NFL teams should be embracing the spirit of the Rooney Rule, not looking for ways to check a box. The rule isn't broken per se, the people in charge of implementing it just don't care. There should be active outreach measures looking to uncover great minority talent based on the fact that it is the right thing to do and not some pesky rule the league imposed upon the rich white dudes.

 

I can imagine your hardship.

 

I think we broadly agree SDS. But if they are just flouting the rule we have to try something, surely? 

[GunnerBill]

25 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

Well, I’m fine with teams being required to interview minority candidates...but it seems like Steven A Smith and ESPN are not happy about that, and want more to be done...

 

My issue with that view is that now you’re getting into the arena of trying to decipher intent of the people doing the interviewing and hiring- which is a slippery slope that people shouldn’t want to go down...

 

 

 

I am not sure it takes much deciphering. When you just grab the nearest minority coach on your staff and interview him first then crack on I think your intent is pretty clear. 

 

That is why in my first post in this thread I distinguish between the Fewell type situation and someone like Marvin Lewis interviewing in Dallas who some have said "oh he was just a tick box" but to me that is hard to prove and to be honest I doubt it..

[GoBills808]

10 minutes ago, SDS said:

 

I don't think this is correct. NFL teams should be embracing the spirit of the Rooney Rule, not looking for ways to check a box. The rule isn't broken per se, the people in charge of implementing it just don't care. There should be active outreach measures looking to uncover great minority talent based on the fact that it is the right thing to do and not some pesky rule the league imposed upon the rich white dudes.

That people assume NFL teams are simply going through the motions when considering minority candidates speaks volumes in itself.

[SDS]

5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

That people assume NFL teams are simply going through the motions when considering minority candidates speaks volumes in itself.

 

I was about ready to post something similar. Every year we have this discussion and there is always a large, large faction who treats this as a BS exercise.

[C.Biscuit97]

27 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

Well that’s only because most minorities didn’t play the position back in the day...

 

But once they started playing at younger and younger ages, started playing the position in college, and now it’s prominent in the NFL...the free market worked. ?

 

The talent couldn’t be denied and teams wanted to win!

But that goes to the larger point.  Blacks weren’t trusted to be qbs back in the day.  Teams were nervous to have them as the face of the franchise.  Again, while I think it’s more of the buddy network of knowing the right people, could that be the same with head coaches?
 

and I’m just nit picking for the sake of discussion.  Actually kinda proud of these board for having a very civil conversation haha.

[GunnerBill]

15 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

That people assume NFL teams are simply going through the motions when considering minority candidates speaks volumes in itself.

 

I only think that when they literally just grab an internal position coach and interview them right at the start and then crack on with the search.

[whatdrought]

4 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

and I’m just nit picking for the sake of discussion.  Actually kinda proud of these board for having a very civil conversation haha.

 

 

Same! I had a long thread about this typed out yesterday before this one and then deleted it cause I couldn't imagine it going well, but this has really been quite nice all things considered!

 

 

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I only think that when they literally just grab an internal position coach and interview them right at the start and then crack on with the search.

 

Part of that could be a strategic move as well though... If you know you have to interview a minority before you hire someone, you dont want to get into a situation where you find the perfect guy who isn't a minority, but have to wait to sign him till you interview a minority and then he has 2 or 3 other teams calling his name. Obviously that's a lot of business thinking and not thinking about the people, but it seems very believable that the rule could facilitate that. 

Edited January 8, 2020 by whatdrought

[C.Biscuit97]

35 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

Randell Cunningham, Warren Moon, Doug Williams, Steve McNair come to mind. There isn't now, nor has there been historically, a huge number of African American QB's in the NFL, but is there a huge class of A.A. men that have the ability to play QB and wanted to that weren't allowed to? That goes back to using specifics instead of generalities and it's the same conversation as the "why aren't there white Cornerbacks?" rabbit hole. 

I think this is the worst point of all the points you have made in this thread (you’ve made a bunch of good ones).  The thought was that AA weren’t smart enough to be qbs and should play other positions.  That’s why people took the Polian Lamar received stuff a certain way (I think it was more of Polian being a stubborn old dude than a racist).  
 

cornerbacks are a position mainly based on pure athleticism.  If you are an elite athlete, That’s  what matters most.  There are a lot more factors that go into a exalting a qb than cb.  Looking back, it’s absolutely insane that a one year “wonder” like Mitchell T went ahead of an all time great player in Watson and a freak talent like Mahomes.  

43 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

Yep. Even NFL media guys like Steve Wyche who tweets something like this:

 

 

This along with a lot of other things he's tweeted, retweeted, and liked, make it seem pretty clear that he believes the Giants passed on Bienemy because of his race which is, I think, offensive to the Giants, and to Judge. It's also slanderous without proof.

 

 

Edit: 

 

Or this little gem, where he conveniently buries the lead about Judge being in charge of a record setting ST unit the past five years:

 

 

 

This bothers me. 

There isn’t any truth in this?  Why did Matt Nagy who wasn’t the Chiefs playcaller either get a job yet EB who oversaw a record breaking one not get one?

 

i do understand that it is annoying how it can be that race works it’s way into the conversation but there are some bad optics. 

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

 

Same! I had a long thread about this typed out yesterday before this one and then deleted it cause I couldn't imagine it going well, but this has really been quite nice all things considered!

 

 

 

Part of that could be a strategic move as well though... If you know you have to interview a minority before you hire someone, you dont want to get into a situation where you find the perfect guy who isn't a minority, but have to wait to sign him till you interview a minority and then he has 2 or 3 other teams calling his name. Obviously that's a lot of business thinking and not thinking about the people, but it seems very believable that the rule could facilitate that. 

 

I also agree it has been a good discussion. 

 

I will also say that point you make in your second para is a good one but I still think we have to try and make sure the qualified minority coaches are getting the opportunities to interview. Nobody thinks Perry Fewell is an NFL Head Coach in waiting. 

[whatdrought]

2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I think this is the worst point of all the points you have made in this thread (you’ve made a bunch of good ones).  The thought was that AA weren’t smart enough to be qbs and should play other positions.  That’s why people took the Polian Lamar received stuff a certain way (I think it was more of Polian being a stubborn old dude than a racist).  
 

cornerbacks are a position mainly based on pure athleticism.  If you are an elite athlete, That’s  what matters most.  There are a lot more factors that go into a exalting a qb than cb.  Looking back, it’s absolutely insane that a one year “wonder” like Mitchell T went ahead of an all time great player in Watson and a freak talent like Mahomes.  

 

It's possible that that perception was there and going back far enough definitely finds racist history deeply entrenched in the NFL, and obviously I don't agree with it. I just like to be careful with sweeping statements about how things "used to be" or "it's just how they are" (not accusing you, just in general) instead of looking at specific situations and what factors went into them. Hindsight always help the evaluation process. I didn't follow the draft that closely then, but I know the idea of Mitch being the cream of the QB crop wasn't a small population saying that, and I don't think that has to do with racist intent or undercurrent. 

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, whatdrought said:

 

It's possible that that perception was there and going back far enough definitely finds racist history deeply entrenched in the NFL, and obviously I don't agree with it. I just like to be careful with sweeping statements about how things "used to be" or "it's just how they are" (not accusing you, just in general) instead of looking at specific situations and what factors went into them. Hindsight always help the evaluation process. I didn't follow the draft that closely then, but I know the idea of Mitch being the cream of the QB crop wasn't a small population saying that, and I don't think that has to do with racist intent or undercurrent. 

Fair but looking back, it’s absolutely insane.  What did MT do better than Watson?  He started one year in college.  What could you point to saying he was definitely a better prospect?  And for the record, I was all about Watson and Mahomes.  Never got the MT love.  I should be the Bears GM. 

[whatdrought]

26 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Fair but looking back, it’s absolutely insane.  What did MT do better than Watson?  He started one year in college.  What could you point to saying he was definitely a better prospect?  And for the record, I was all about Watson and Mahomes.  Never got the MT love.  I should be the Bears GM. 

 

I have no clue. Like I said, I didn't know jack about that draft. It is hard for me to imagine what happened that could have led to such a miscalculation... It does seem obvious, a one year starter at a sub-standard school... Big question marks, but alas it happens all the freaking time. 

 

Just for fun (and off topic) here's some stuff I found on google: 

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000791512/article/lance-zierlein-big-board-top-32-players-for-2017-nfl-draft

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2704997-2017-nfl-draft-big-board-matt-millers-top-overall-player-rankings#slide2

 

This actually makes sense, all things considered: (with the exception of Trubisky as best prospect)

 

Best Prospect: Mitchell Trubisky, North Carolina

Most NFL-Ready: Deshaun Watson, Clemson

Best Arm: Patrick Mahomes, Texas Tech

Best Runner: Watson

Most Potential: Mahomes

Biggest Bust Potential: DeShone Kizer, Notre Dame

Biggest Sleeper: Brad Kaaya, Miami (Fla.)

Highest Risk: Mahomes

Lowest Risk: Watson

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000802568/article/mike-mayocks-2017-nfl-draft-top-100-prospect-rankings

(Mayock here has Watson above Trubisky, but doesn't have Mahomes on his top 100)

 

 

Crazy stuff man. 

 

30 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I also agree it has been a good discussion. 

 

I will also say that point you make in your second para is a good one but I still think we have to try and make sure the qualified minority coaches are getting the opportunities to interview. Nobody thinks Perry Fewell is an NFL Head Coach in waiting. 

 

I think all candidates should have equal opportunities. Whatever needs to happen for that to work, I'm pro. 

 

With how many times he's been an interim head coach, he's an all-pro head coach in waiting... Just never gonna get hired for a HC job... Always a bridesmaid...

Edited January 8, 2020 by whatdrought

[row_33]

33 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

It's possible that that perception was there and going back far enough definitely finds racist history deeply entrenched in the NFL, and obviously I don't agree with it. I just like to be careful with sweeping statements about how things "used to be" or "it's just how they are" (not accusing you, just in general) instead of looking at specific situations and what factors went into them. Hindsight always help the evaluation process. I didn't follow the draft that closely then, but I know the idea of Mitch being the cream of the QB crop wasn't a small population saying that, and I don't think that has to do with racist intent or undercurrent. 

 

lots of other key factors beside stats....

[pennstate10]

College Football doesn’t have a Rooney rule, but the number of black coaches has increased. 
For instance Penn State has a black head coach. And over half of PSU assistant coaches are black also. I think it takes time. I know there are exceptions but head coaches Typically have to grind and grind as assistants for 15-20 yrs before they get a shot at a head coaching position. 

I think rather than a Rooney rule, increasing opportunities as interns and volunteer assistant position coaches is the way to go. These guys will pay their dues and learn coaching (which, to be clear, is MUCH different than playing) from the bottom up. In addition, they will have developed the relationships and networks that will be necessary for a head guy to successfully recruit his staff of assistants. 

[whatdrought]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

There isn’t any truth in this?  Why did Matt Nagy who wasn’t the Chiefs playcaller either get a job yet EB who oversaw a record breaking one not get one?

 

i do understand that it is annoying how it can be that race works it’s way into the conversation but there are some bad optics. 

 

I didn't see the second half of this post (responding to the tweets) until just now. The first tweet (first in my post, not chronologically) is accurate, he isn't a playcaller but neither were those guys so it should be looked past and it isn't a good reason not to hire him. 

 

The second tweet I posted is disingenuous as it ignores Judge's work with the Pats ST's and that (along with several other tweets regarding the RR) really heavily imply that he believes Bienime (I've spelt that 80 different ways today, still don't know what's right) was passed over due to being A.A. Not only does it accuse the Giants of racism, but it further accuses Judge of being unqualified and only getting the position because of his race. The Giants interviewed both of these guys and the implication, i think, with this line of discussion (Wyches tweets) is that the Giants sat back, said "this guy is a better candidate, but he's a minority, so lets go with the NE guy." and I just refuse to believe that in the absence of some concrete proof.  I just find it upsetting that that accusation, whether direct or implied, is so easily bandied about without validation. There's nothing that clearly says that B. is a better coach than Judge is. If it was clear as all of that, there would be no ambiguity to the coaching carousal each year and it would be a matter of which team was gonna shell out the most cash. 

 

Now, I will say this to be completely fair to SW- I could be misreading this and piecing together a narrative that isn't there. His tweets directly about Judge and B. don't reference race or the RR. That being said, given the entire context of his twitter dealings from that day, it seems as if the race issue is his focus. But again, it may be two unrelated things so take my interpretation as just that. 

[Buffalo Junction]

21 hours ago, whatdrought said:

Almost made a thread on this earlier, but wasn’t sure how it would go over. 

 

The flak now is is that the rule isn’t resaulting in many minorities being hired. Technically speaking, something like 20% of the open positions have been filled with a minority candidate this year (Rivera in WSH) which is not all that much lower than the 30% minority makeup of the US. 

 

The problem, and the argument that Stephen A. and others don’t seem to want to engage regarding this, is that you can’t debate the Rooney rule and the lack of minority coaches in a racial vaccum. You have to present actual examples of minority coaches who are more deserving of the position being passed over. That’s kinda hard to do, I think. 

 

 

The problem, in my humble opinion, is that any time you look at anything but qualifications for a job or position, you break the system. This anger about minorities not being respresented has to intrinsically include an accusation that an owners racism is worth more to them than winning. That’s a hard pill to swallow.

I’m not necessarily sure that it’s an owners issue. It’s an issue that needs to be examined from the bottom up.... How many assistant coaching hires are minority candidates, are they promoted, is there more or less equality in the college ranks? Many of the best candidates tend to rise to the top, but if the best prospects never get that job as Asst LB coach at Middle Tennessee State they’ll never sniff a career. Another thing to look at with these coaching hires is the prevalence of former QBs and minority QB trends over the past few decades. A lot of these offensive coaches played QB. 

[Mr. WEO]

21 hours ago, Limeaid said:

 

Every employer I have been with in last 20 years where clearance was not required.

 

 

They have a different pay scale for Asians and people from the Middle East at your company?  How does that fly?

[Jpsredemption]

23 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

There are literally riots in the street whenever whitey gets hired.  I have a dream, that one day a white man can get a fair shake in America!!  Until then, we shall overcome!!!

And what you said was racist. Hope you are proud of yourself and your party of choice. 

[row_33]

17 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

They have a different pay scale for Asians and people from the Middle East at your company?  How does that fly?

 

they both make the highest $$$

 

 

[Mr. WEO]

3 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

they both make the highest $$$

 

 

 

Not at Limeaid's sweatshop

[row_33]

17 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

They have a different pay scale for Asians and people from the Middle East at your company?  How does that fly?

 

they are punished for a history of SAT scores that break the model.

[Jauronimo]

11 minutes ago, Jpsredemption said:

And what you said was racist. Hope you are proud of yourself and your party of choice. 

Da fuq are you talking about?

[Putin]

On 1/7/2020 at 6:35 PM, Sunshower said:

I couldn’t disagree more. I think if an owner thinks an African American coach gives you a better chance than a white guy, they’ll get hired. Could be wrong but teams are way too competitive to not hire the best coach. Could be wrong though but I’ll try n keep an open mind.

That's what I believe as well AND at the end of the day ( I HOPE )  it's ALL ABOUT WINNING . If the owner is racist then he's in the wrong business 

its just hard for me to believe that a GM or the owner would pass on a African American coach knowing that he gives him  a better chance of winning , 

[row_33]

4 minutes ago, Putin said:

That's what I believe as well AND at the end of the day ( I HOPE )  it's ALL ABOUT WINNING . If the owner is racist then he's in the wrong business 

its just hard for me to believe that a GM or the owner would pass on a African American coach knowing that he gives him  a better chance of winning , 

 

you have an example of an owner's prime reason for not hiring is the race of the applicant?

 

[Rodney1243]

Hello.  I want to ask how much you know for the Spanish economy, now you can look for their progress here https://www.mundiario.com/articulo/economia/economia-espanola-otono-2015-y-prestamos-momento/20151210135143050644.html

[Jauronimo]

4 minutes ago, Rodney1243 said:

Hello.  I want to ask how much you know for the Spanish economy, now you can look for their progress here https://www.mundiario.com/articulo/economia/economia-espanola-otono-2015-y-prestamos-momento/20151210135143050644.html

Hi! You seem cute. Lets chat on PM.  Wanna see my pics?

[Putin]

34 minutes ago, Jpsredemption said:

And what you said was racist. Hope you are proud of yourself and your party of choice. 

And here we go 

[whatdrought]

Wow... That isn't even the trolliest thing to happen to this board this week.... 

[PatsFanNH]

IMO this year teams are hiring before they do their do diligence.  Every one of them (except Cleveland) made a decision in a weeks time.. not allowing any current coordinators to interview (white, black, Martian) and ALL before they talked to McDaniels who is suppose to be this hot commodity this year again.  (He has earned a new HC job even if I believe his entire success is because Brady made him look good.)

[vincec]

I think the basis of the Rooney rule was to raise the profile for viable minority candidates by granting them interviews with decision makers as well as the media attention that goes with it. Then they are at least on people's radar screens when positions arise. I know as a past employee and current employer that it's never bad to have a good interview. Even if you don't get the position your name will circulate and put you in better contention for other opportunities.

 

People hire based on relationships. That's a big reason that the same coaches get recycled from position to position. If someone hasn't met you or has never even heard of you then your chances are pretty slim. The rule is supposed to help with this.

Edited January 9, 2020 by vincec

[Jauronimo]

21 minutes ago, Putin said:

That's what I believe as well AND at the end of the day ( I HOPE )  it's ALL ABOUT WINNING . If the owner is racist then he's in the wrong business 

its just hard for me to believe that a GM or the owner would pass on a African American coach knowing that he gives him  a better chance of winning , 

Think of it a little differently, as in a scenario where a GM or Owner has a bias, consciously or subconsciously, and thinks that no African American coach or executive gives them a better chance of winning than their white counter parts.  It seems unthinkable, but then again we saw similar attitudes toward black QBs.  

 

Less nefariously, people often hire those that they relate to better.  Often people who look like themselves and share more similar backgrounds.

[vincec]

10 minutes ago, PatsFanNH said:

IMO this year teams are hiring before they do their do diligence.  Every one of them (except Cleveland) made a decision in a weeks time.. not allowing any current coordinators to interview (white, black, Martian) and ALL before they talked to McDaniels who is suppose to be this hot commodity this year again.  (He has earned a new HC job even if I believe his entire success is because Brady made him look good.)

It's like musical chairs. No one wants to be left with some leftover that no one wanted when the music stops...