McDermott Weds Presser: Sullivan asks whether Allen is an improvement over Tyrod

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

Prescott

Dak was the rookie of the year lol. He was good out of the box. He’s certainly improved a little but he’s not a vastly different player.

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

What rule changes in the NFL have eliminated the ability to improve? This doesn't make any sense. And honestly Allen is a rare case. I'm not just saying that because he's on the Bills. Before we drafted him I thought whatever team took him would need to sit him for 2 years based on his history at the position. I wouldn't bet on him becoming a top 10 QB but if he keeps trending up I'm not looking elsewhere. Might as well enjoy the ride.

I don’t make the rules. The fact of the matter is that “projects” do not and have not succeeded in the NFL in the last ten years. They just don’t. 

[london_bills]

8 minutes ago, Jerry Jabber said:

I’d like to know who the reporter was at the 7:55 mark. He was very vague with his questions and you could tell McDermott was getting frustrated with him as he started giving the reporter short answers, then cut the conference short.

Dan fetes, 13wham Rochester apparently. 

Edited November 13, 2019 by london_bills

[GoBills808]

Just now, BringBackOrton said:

Dak was the rookie of the year lol. He was good out of the box. He’s certainly improved a little but he’s not a vastly different player.

Give Allen that line and Ezekiel Elliott I'm good

[HappyDays]

1 minute ago, BringBackOrton said:

The fact of the matter is that “projects” do not and have not succeeded in the NFL in the last ten years. They just don’t. 

 

I learned the hard way with Mahomes this is not true. He was a classic project QB that had to be developed for a year before even seeing the field. I felt the same way about him as I did about Allen. Now I'm keeping an open mind.

[CNYfan]

Promo is correct.   Why bother with this loser Sullivan.  

 

This is a New Era, we don't need his backwash, negativity and  sniping filth.   

 

This is a loser from a losing time when we were strapped with a cheap out of date owner (God Rest His Soul).

 

Flush J.S., don't let him in here.

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

Give Allen that line and Ezekiel Elliott I'm good

Dak was better as a rookie than Allen is today. Funny you didn’t mention Watson’s OL or RB when he was a rookie. 

 

I get it. The rookie excuse works, unless you compare him rookies that were way better than him. The weapons excuse works, until you compare him to players whose weapons were comparable to his. 

 

The house of cards is tumbling down. Next year the Troy Aikman and Alex Smith comparisons will start to emerge, and then Allen’s career in Buffalo will end. It’s the life cycle of failed Bills QB’s.

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I learned the hard way with Mahomes this is not true. He was a classic project QB that had to be developed for a year before even seeing the field. I felt the same way about him as I did about Allen. Now I'm keeping an open mind.

Mahomes did not require 3 years. He was better in his second start than every single one of Allen’s starts ever.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

38 minutes ago, MJS said:

They can throw hard balls, but the questions should not be dumb. What does Tyrod Taylor have to do with Josh Allen? There's plenty of ammunition to attack Allen with.

 

This is really where I am.  There are miles and miles of things that can be critiqued about the team and about Allen right now.

 

Looking at an arbitrary window for Taylor and Allen to compare them and ask that question just seems like working overtime to create controversy.

 

 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, BringBackOrton said:

Dak was better as a rookie than Allen is today. Funny you didn’t mention Watson’s OL or RB when he was a rookie. 

 

I get it. The rookie excuse works, unless you compare him rookies that were way better than him. The weapons excuse works, until you compare him to players whose weapons were comparable to his. 

 

The house of cards is tumbling down. Next year the Troy Aikman and Alex Smith comparisons will start to emerge, and then Allen’s career in Buffalo will end. It’s the life cycle of failed Bills QB’s.

LMAO you think Watson's weapons were comparable to Allen's 

 

You guys want to weep about the QB situation I'm done passing out tissues, have at it. 

 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Give Allen that line and Ezekiel Elliott I'm good

 

Could we add 28 yr old Dez Bryant and Jason Witten as well?

[uticaclub]

Allen is being held back from the coaching staff. If he’s going to fail, let him fail. Again, this is a coaching staff what thought having Nate Peterman be the opening day starter was a good idea because they were able to a 6th for McCarron

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

LMAO you think Watson's weapons were comparable to Allen's 

 

You guys want to weep about the QB situation I'm done passing out tissues, have at it. 

 

 

 

Houston had one of the worst OL’s in football in Watson’s rookie year. The Bills OL this year is much better. Curiously, Watson with a worse OL and as a rookie was a far superior QB to mobile 2nd year JP Losman who can’t hit a deep ball.  Must be one of those curious coincidences that has no bearing on events to come.

[HappyDays]

5 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

Mahomes did not require 3 years. He was better in his second start than every single one of Allen’s starts ever.

 

Well this an entirely different point than what you just made, but sure. It's interesting how every example someone posted to counter your point about project QBs and improvement beyond year 2 has been hand waved away somehow.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Oh really?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cTNqwZ5gkY

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzrwEpKYHWk

 

I'm still waiting for Josh to throw one pass like any of these.

 

I would have thought your wait for that one pass would end here:

 

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, Sundancer said:

 

You must be so happy that you can finally say this! Bully for you.

 

 

Nice try rookie.  I'm solidly behind Allen.  

 

I'm solidly against weak posts and lame arguments.

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Nice try rookie.  I'm solidly behind Allen.  

 

I'm solidly against weak posts and lame arguments.

Then you are in the wrong thread

[BringBackOrton]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Well this an entirely different point than what you just made, but sure. It's interesting how every example someone posted to counter your point about project QBs and improvement beyond year 2 has been hand waved away somehow.

What? My original point was that QB’s past year 2 do not take great leaps forward in ability in today’s NFL. Mahomes doesn’t invalidate that, he MAKES MY POINT. Unless you’re arguing he’s taken a leap from last year??

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

Then you are in the wrong thread

 

Nah....just swatting flies on that one.

[london_bills]

That mark on Allen's nose, will it go when he hits a deep ball? 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

Houston had one of the worst OL’s in football in Watson’s rookie year. The Bills OL this year is much better. Curiously, Watson with a worse OL and as a rookie was a far superior QB to mobile 2nd year JP Losman who can’t hit a deep ball.  Must be one of those curious coincidences that has no bearing on events to come.

 

1) how long had the offensive system been in place - the terminology and the plays they built around with Watson?

2) who was Watson throwing to, and where were they the previous year?

3) what was the running game like the previous year and that year

 

I'll answer for you:

1) 4th year, since Bill O'Brien took over as HC

2) the very talented D'Andre Hopkins who was right there and almost broke 1000 yds with Osweiler throwing to him; solid #2 Will Fuller

3) >1000 yds previous year with Lamar Miller, 888 that year

 

It's true the OL had some gaps, including a rookie center and injuries at tackle, but 3 of the pieces returned from the previous year.  Watson made it look worse than it was at times.

 

Watson is an excellent QB, there's no question.  But if you want to assert Allen has a similar level of support around him even now (a WR like Hopkins for example), um, that would be No.

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

1 hour ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Don't worry, I will hold all of them to account.

 

 

 

Kinda like how you held mike schopp to account for his mild Allen/Lamar take?

[notwoz]

21 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

A legitimate question would be to ask McDermott why the offense hasn't improved after 2 years. Asking McDermott about a specific cherry picked stat for a rookie vs a veteran is not legitimate. It is basically just trolling.

Maybe, just maybe, the offense hasn't improved because Allen hasn't been able to move the offense forward. Ever consider that? I'm not saying Allen is an improvement over Tyrod or not. But I am saying that it was a legitimate question. Because the offense has not shown any marked improvement. 

[BringBackOrton]

6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

1) how long had the offensive system been in place - the terminology and the plays they built around with Watson?

2) who was Watson throwing to, and where were they the previous year?

They had a brand new OC the year Watson started.

 

Hopkins and Fuller were there a year before.

 

Edit: it appears they only fired their previous OC. I guess BOB was doing it all himself that year.

Edited November 14, 2019 by BringBackOrton

[Hapless Bills Fan]

32 minutes ago, notwoz said:

I rarely side with Sully, but I think this is a legitimate question. Either Allen is an improvement, or he's not. Asking the coach what makes him an improvement is not an unfair question.

 

 

Except that's not the question Sullivan asked, now, is it?

[reddogblitz]

11 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I would have thought your wait for that one pass would end here:

 

 

Like I told the other guy that posted this, it was a long time ago I must have forgotten.  It was a nice pass.  Since he hasn't thrown any more before or since I think I'll have to chalk it up to the proverbial blind squirrel finding a nut theory. 

 

The other one he posted was way under thrown like the one in the Eagles game, but Zay made a nice play on it.

 

Be nice to see another one some time this season.  I'll be waiting ...

[oldmanfan]

Sullivan likes to make himself part of the story

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Like I told the other guy that posted this, it was a long time ago I must have forgotten.  It was a nice pass.  Since he hasn't thrown any more before or since I think I'll have to chalk it up to the proverbial blind squirrel finding a nut theory. 

 

The other one he posted was way under thrown like the one in the Eagles game, but Zay made a nice play on it.

 

Be nice to see another one some time this season.  I'll be waiting ...

 

You are a special species, that's for sure.  You're waiting for one pass.  I go to youtube and type "Josh Allen bomb" and find one, Snap.

Now it's a "proverbial blind squirrel finding a nut"

 

We see those goalposts a'movin

 

 

[notwoz]

6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Except that's not the question Sullivan asked, now, is it?

Well, what was his question, then?

[Maine-iac]

3 minutes ago, notwoz said:

Maybe, just maybe, the offense hasn't improved because Allen hasn't been able to move the offense forward. Ever consider that? I'm not saying Allen is an improvement over Tyrod or not. But I am saying that it was a legitimate question. Because the offense has not shown any marked improvement. 

Coaches make the team.  Stars are great but coaches make the team.  Our defense is great because McDermott and Frazier are both good DC.  Taylor was good when Roman/Lynn were coaching and not so much with Dennison.  Daboll is an improvement over Dennison and I think, like Allen, can get better.  If you look overall Daboll is hitting the same numbers he's hit virtually his whole career.  Lucky for us we probably don't need to score 25ppg and if Daboll and Allen can manage to cut the turnovers and score just another couple of ppg we can probably field a good enough defense to be in most games.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

They had a brand new OC the year Watson started.

 

Hopkins and Fuller were there a year before.

 

Edit: it appears they only fired their previous OC. I guess BOB was doing it all himself that year.

 

I think any OC that works under Bill O'Brian runs Bill O'Brian's offense as Bill O'Brian wants it run, or it's "don't let the door hitcha where the good lord splitcha"

But I could be wrong

 

Hopkins, Fuller, and RB Lamar Miller put up excellent numbers the year before and excellent numbers with Watson.

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think any OC that works under Bill O'Brian runs Bill O'Brian's offense as Bill O'Brian wants it run, or it's "don't let the door hitcha where the good lord splitcha"

But I could be wrong

 

Hopkins, Fuller, and RB Lamar Miller put up excellent numbers the year before and excellent numbers with Watson.

Sure, okay. What is your point?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, notwoz said:

Well, what was his question, then?

 

He stated that Allen's passing numbers in his 20 starts were virtually identical to Tyrod's last 20 starts.  "You moved away from Taylor to upgrade your passing game.  So, is that enough of an upgrade? Or are you waiting for the next 20 starts to see?"

 

You stated "Asking the coach what makes him an improvement is not an unfair question. ". 

 

But that's not what he asked.

 

I would actually agree that giving the stats and then say "Can you comment on what you see in Josh Allen that makes him or will make him an upgrade to the passing game?" might be a reasonable question, although IMO to arbitrarily bunch 20 starts for a rookie QB and compare them to the last 20 starts of a guy who had 3 years after 4 to learn from the bench is kind of junk.  But the way Sullivan phrased his question was clearly loaded.

 

I thought McDermott handled it pretty well.

 

 

[reddogblitz]

12 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You are a special species, that's for sure.  You're waiting for one pass.  I go to youtube and type "Josh Allen bomb" and find one, Snap.

Now it's a "proverbial blind squirrel finding a nut"

 

We see those goalposts a'movin

 

 

 

True.

 

OK, he got one.  I'm happy.  Are you?

 

Would be nice to have more than one every 20 games.  But he does have one!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

Sure, okay. What is your point?

 

You stated to someone else " Funny you didn’t mention Watson’s OL or RB when he was a rookie."    What was your point?

 

I took it to imply that somehow Watson was great with inferior pieces around him.  Watson's OL had 3 returning quality starters.  His RB when he was a rookie, Lamar Miller, had gained >1000 years the previous year and gained 888 plus doubled his passing yards Watson's rookie year (they put him in space and used him as a check-down more).  He had one of the best WR in the game in Hopkins.

 

And they all knew the system, play terminology, and their roles in those plays, having played in it for years under O'Brian

 

Watson is a great QB.  I'll be ecstatic if Allen approaches as good - he may not.  But to talk as though he had a similar situation in terms of talent and a new system to what Allen has had, well, it's simply not so.

[notwoz]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

He stated that Allen's passing numbers in his 20 starts were virtually identical to Tyrod's last 20 starts.  "You moved away from Taylor to upgrade your passing game.  So, is that enough of an upgrade? Or are you waiting for the next 20 starts to see?"

 

You stated "Asking the coach what makes him an improvement is not an unfair question. ". 

 

But that's not what he asked.

 

I would actually agree that giving the stats and then say "Can you comment on what you see in Josh Allen that makes him or will make him an upgrade to the passing game?" might be a reasonable question, although IMO to arbitrarily bunch 20 starts for a rookie QB and compare them to the last 20 starts of a guy who had 3 years after 4 to learn from the bench is kind of junk.  But the way Sullivan phrased his question was clearly loaded.

 

I thought McDermott handled it pretty well.

 

 

I still think it was a legitimate question. They dumped Tyrod (not that I was a big Tyrod fan) in favor of Allen. The results of the change haven't been overwhelming.  And Allen is no longer a rookie. He is in his second year. And the "signs of progress" aren't exactly comforting. 

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, reddogblitz said:

 

True.

 

OK, he got one.  I'm happy.  Are you?

 

Would be nice to have more than one every 20 games.  But he does have one!

There you go.  I predicted it.  If he hits one next game or shows history of such, it will then be he needs to do it more often.  

 

I really wonder, if he hits two long balls and throws for over 300 Sunday, what the next thing folks will find to criticize?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, notwoz said:

I still think it was a legitimate question. They dumped Tyrod (not that I was a big Tyrod fan) in favor of Allen. The results of the change haven't been overwhelming.  And Allen is no longer a rookie. He is in his second year. And the "signs of progress" aren't exactly comforting. 

 

Then we disagree.  I think it was a bullcrap question based on inappropriate statistical binning and phrased to provoke controversy.

[reddogblitz]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

There you go.  I predicted it.  If he hits one next game or shows history of such, it will then be he needs to do it more often.  

 

I really wonder, if he hits two long balls and throws for over 300 Sunday, what the next thing folks will find to criticize?

 

Just win baby.

[HappyDays]

34 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

What? My original point was that QB’s past year 2 do not take great leaps forward in ability in today’s NFL. Mahomes doesn’t invalidate that, he MAKES MY POINT. Unless you’re arguing he’s taken a leap from last year??

 

No, you said project QBs never work out. Mahomes was a project QB. Actually Aaron Rodgers was a project QB who didn't start until after 3 years. There's another one. What's the excuse for why he doesn't count?

[london_bills]

2 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Just win baby.

Just win a SUPERBOWL baby. 

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

No, you said project QBs never work out. Mahomes was a project QB. Actually Aaron Rodgers was a project QB who didn't start until after 3 years. There's another one. What's the excuse for why he doesn't count?

 

1 hour ago, BringBackOrton said:

In the last decade, what QB improved drastically from who they were in year two to present?

If you’re going to jump into a conversation, try to read it from the beginning. My use of “project QB” was directly related to, “improving drastically past their second year.”

Edited November 14, 2019 by BringBackOrton