McBeane and draft timing

[Element115]

9 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Your take also shows inconsistency in judgement.  You seem to dismiss Allen based on his rookie season, and at the same time you want to anoint Mahomes as savior because of one really  great year.   What if Allen steps up this season , and Mahomes regresses?  I do a lot of research and statistical work; an N of 1 is hardly enough on which to base conclusions.

 

Not really, I said the data to this point does not point to Allen being anywhere near as good as Mahomes, key terminology being "to this point".  This season will add valuable data and solidify a comparison (I suspect Allen will be nowhere near as good as Mahomes, but that is projection based on what I have seen). I expect Mahomes' numbers to decrease, simply because his numbers last season will be hard to duplicate.  However, I expect Allens numbers to be around half of what Mahomes' were last season.

9 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

McDermott and Beane have done a good job drafting talent thus far. 

 

But "they" (people assume Bean and McDermott were conversing before that draft but that's just conjecture) missed on the most important position on the roster, right out of the gate... (and then spent significantly more draft capital the following year to address the position with what looks like to be inferior talent).

Edited August 29, 2019 by Element115

[teef]

4 minutes ago, Element115 said:

 

Not really, I said the data to this point does not point to Allen being anywhere near as good as Mahomes, key terminology being "to this point".  This season will add valuable data and solidify a comparison (I suspect Allen will be nowhere near as good as Mahomes, but that is projection based on what I have seen). I expect Mahomes' numbers to decrease, simply because his numbers last season will be hard to duplicate.  However, I expect Allens numbers to be around half of what Mahomes' were last season.

does it keep you awake at night?

[BarleyNY]

8 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  I can't believe that people here are still stuck on Mahomes like a junk yard dog is stuck on a soup bone.  Mahomes sat for a year and had Reid to tutor him.  Mahomes draft position would have had fans clambering for him to start early in his rookie season and if that did not happen the talk of being a bust would have been deafening.  Also, Reid was not here to tutor him nor Alex Smith to be a mentor.  People here were moaning about Derek Anderson being signed last year without a single thought as to how it might benefit Allen.

 

I can’t believe that people still come up with crap like this.  So much garbage.  Believe it or not, the Bills could’ve provided quality coaching to a rookie QB and sat him for a season (if needed) behind an acceptable bridge QB.  In fact, one was on the team in Tyrod Taylor.  They hadn’t even extended him yet.  And the fans would have been fine with it.  They were fine with that same idea when Allen was drafted - they just didn’t want it to be Peterman (understandably).  They were counting on McCarron to be that guy.  The situation with Taylor and Mahomes would’ve been much, much better with a better vet and rookie.  The only problem some people had at the time was moving on from Taylor and not wanting to take a step back.  Many were in “win now” mode and wanted to end the playoff drought regardless of the long term futility. 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

5 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

 

I can’t believe that people still come up with crap like this.  So much garbage.  Believe it or not, the Bills could’ve provided quality coaching to a rookie QB and sat him for a season (if needed) behind an acceptable bridge QB.  In fact, one was on the team in Tyrod Taylor.  They hadn’t even extended him yet.  And the fans would have been fine with it.  They were fine with that same idea when Allen was drafted - they just didn’t want it to be Peterman (understandably).  They were counting on McCarron to be that guy.  The situation with Taylor and Mahomes would’ve been much, much better with a better vet and rookie.  The only problem some people had at the time was moving on from Taylor and not wanting to take a step back.  Many were in “win now” mode and wanted to end the playoff drought regardless of the long term futility. 

 

McD came in and entered the draft knowing that the GM would not be with the team moving forward.  That means his career would be tied to the next GM and ultimately the QB they picked together. To pretend this career defining context is not a thing or does not matter is mind boggling. 

[BarleyNY]

2 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

McD came in and entered the draft knowing that the GM would not be with the team moving forward.  That means his career would be tied to the next GM and ultimately the QB they picked together. To pretend this career defining context is not a thing or does not matter is mind boggling. 

 

To pretend that you don’t take a franchise QB when you have the chance because you want to change GMs is mind boggling. 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

2 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

 

To pretend that you don’t take a franchise QB when you have the chance because you want to change GMs is mind boggling. 

 

McD is a coach, not a QB elevator. The guy they planned to hire and trust to evaluate the position wasn't with the team. We are not talking about a guarantee. Drafting your franchise QB is always a gamble. Even the best prospects fail half the time, and Mahomes was farrrrr from the best prospect.  It would be insane to make that gamble under those circumstances.  

[Element115]

24 minutes ago, teef said:

does it keep you awake at night?

 

No, not really.

1 minute ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

McD is a coach, not a QB elevator. The guy they planned to hire and trust to evaluate the position wasn't with the team. We are not talking about a guarantee. Drafting your franchise QB is always a gamble. Even the best prospects fail half the time, and Mahomes was farrrrr from the best prospect.  It would be insane to make that gamble under those circumstances.  

 

Mahomes was a much better prospect out of college than Allen. The Bills wound up paying more for a lesser prospect the following draft. These are the types of things that contribute to franchises being perennial losers.

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

5 minutes ago, Element115 said:

 

No, not really.

 

Mahomes was a much better prospect out of college than Allen. The Bills wound up paying more for a lesser prospect the following draft. These are the types of things that contribute to franchises being perennial losers.

Mahomes was not a better prospect. You are looking at it in hindsight.  In any event, even if that weren't true, drafting a QB without your GM and the staff you trust is farrrrrr more dangerous.  That is more so a recipe for failure.  

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

6 minutes ago, Element115 said:

No, not really.

 

Mahomes was a much better prospect out of college than Allen. The Bills wound up paying more for a lesser prospect the following draft. These are the types of things that contribute to franchises being perennial losers.

you need to get lost. you are not contributing anything to this board and have been doing nothing but inciting. the sooner you are gone the better.

[RochesterRob]

24 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

 

I can’t believe that people still come up with crap like this.  So much garbage.  Believe it or not, the Bills could’ve provided quality coaching to a rookie QB and sat him for a season (if needed) behind an acceptable bridge QB.  In fact, one was on the team in Tyrod Taylor.  They hadn’t even extended him yet.  And the fans would have been fine with it.  They were fine with that same idea when Allen was drafted - they just didn’t want it to be Peterman (understandably).  They were counting on McCarron to be that guy.  The situation with Taylor and Mahomes would’ve been much, much better with a better vet and rookie.  The only problem some people had at the time was moving on from Taylor and not wanting to take a step back.  Many were in “win now” mode and wanted to end the playoff drought regardless of the long term futility. 

  The fans would have never been fine with sitting Mahomes for a season.  Allen was considered a more raw prospect than Mahomes and nearly half the board wanted Allen out there on opening day.  You're still ignoring what Reid did for Mahomes and trying to say that a guy similar to Reid was on staff or one phone call away.  Revisionism and denial are your talking points.  

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

5 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

you need to get lost. you are not contributing anything to this board and have been doing nothing but inciting. the sooner you are gone the better.

He is just not making good points. 

[Captain Hindsight]

18 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

 

To pretend that you don’t take a franchise QB when you have the chance because you want to change GMs is mind boggling. 

Would you let your outgoing manager make the biggest decision in the company's history before he is fired on Monday?

[Element115]

8 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

Mahomes was not a better prospect. You are looking at it in hindsight.  In any event, even if that weren't true, drafting a QB without your GM and the staff you trust is farrrrrr more dangerous.  That is more so a recipe for failure.  

 

He was most definitely a better prospect.  Much better college career, much less "raw".  I hate that term, raw usually means more likely to fail in the NFL.

8 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

you need to get lost. you are not contributing anything to this board and have been doing nothing but inciting. the sooner you are gone the better.

 

I'm sorry that all you want is positive contribution instead of objectivity.

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

4 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

He is just not making good points. 

it's what trolls do best.

[RochesterRob]

19 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

 

To pretend that you don’t take a franchise QB when you have the chance because you want to change GMs is mind boggling. 

  There was extremely little talk about Mahomes being a franchise QB coming out of college.  A high ceiling guy yes and with that assessment it means such a prospect has a long ways to go to realize his potential.  

[Element115]

Just now, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

it's what trolls do best.

 

Opposing views do not make one a troll, in fact, the ones always screaming troll are generally the fascists of the group.  

[C.Biscuit97]

Interesting thread.  But you need to be careful with what is a draft’s strength is supposed to be. 2017, the weak qb draft is better than the strong 2018 QBs class.

1 hour ago, Captain Hindsight said:

Don't have time to look for the interview, but Beane said something about looking at future draft classes when considering FAs and draft picks. 

 

Its so nice to see an actual plan for this team. Whaley could recognize talent, but his roster building skills left a lot to be desired. Every move was "this year" With McBeane its always "this year and next year". Its so refreshing 

You need a hug bud?

I don’t disagree.  But isn’t that what you should say to give yourself more job security?  Like if they have another losing season, McBeane can point to the process and say they just need another year?

 

rebuilding doesn’t take that long in the nfl. 

[thebandit27]

2 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

No, it really won’t. Only those who revel in 20/20 hindsight misery will even consider a 12th pick traded that lands an outstanding cornerback. Give it a rest, sunshine. 

 

What if you were the board's official Mahomer since June of 2016 and watched him fall into your favorite team's lap right when they needed to pull the trigger on a franchise QB?

 

Can you feel that way then?

 

Asking for a friend

5 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Interesting thread.  But you need to be careful with what is a draft’s strength is supposed to be. 2017, the weak qb draft is better than the strong 2018 QBs class.

 

 

Way too early to make that call.

 

[teef]

30 minutes ago, Element115 said:

 

No, not really.

 

you sure?  you seem to bring it up quite a bit.  like it really bothers you.  

[oldmanfan]

57 minutes ago, Element115 said:

 

Not really, I said the data to this point does not point to Allen being anywhere near as good as Mahomes, key terminology being "to this point".  This season will add valuable data and solidify a comparison (I suspect Allen will be nowhere near as good as Mahomes, but that is projection based on what I have seen). I expect Mahomes' numbers to decrease, simply because his numbers last season will be hard to duplicate.  However, I expect Allens numbers to be around half of what Mahomes' were last season.

 

But "they" (people assume Bean and McDermott were conversing before that draft but that's just conjecture) missed on the most important position on the roster, right out of the gate... (and then spent significantly more draft capital the following year to address the position with what looks like to be inferior talent).

No they didn’t.  You want to continue to make a point that is not necessarily valid.  You assume Allen will not be as good as Mahomes based on one season.  And you continue to indict our guys but ignore that every other team in the league could have drafted Mahomes.  Do you indict them all as well?

[Element115]

Just now, teef said:

you sure?  you seem to bring it up quite a bit.  like it really bothers you.  

 

I only think about it when discussing Buffalo Bills football.  And I really only do that at work and here, so.

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

16 minutes ago, Element115 said:

 

He was most definitely a better prospect.  Much better college career, much less "raw".  I hate that term, raw usually means more likely to fail in the NFL.

 

I'm sorry that all you want is positive contribution instead of objectivity.

Fine, lets say he wasn't raw.  He still was not the sure fire prospect you are pretending he was. MOREOVER, we did not have a GM! Do you recommend teams draft the player that will define the next 3 years without a GM or executive staff?  

[C.Biscuit97]

7 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

What if you were the board's official Mahomer since June of 2016 and watched him fall into your favorite team's lap right when they needed to pull the trigger on a franchise QB?

 

Can you feel that way then?

 

Asking for a friend

 

Way too early to make that call.

 

Oh for sure.  But Mahomes and Watson were monsters in their second season. Mitch has pretty decent numbers.  I don’t think another from this class will top Watson/ Mahomes but I would love to see it.

[Element115]

2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

No they didn’t.  You want to continue to make a point that is not necessarily valid.  You assume Allen will not be as good as Mahomes based on one season.  And you continue to indict our guys but ignore that every other team in the league could have drafted Mahomes.  Do you indict them all as well?

 

My stance is based on available data (how else do yo do it other than "Bill-ief"), this season will add to that data and I suspect will close the book on this issue.

[billsfan_34]

11 hours ago, co_springs_billsfan said:

How far ahead does Adam Gase look?

I would say about 5 minutes- lets hope he continues on that trajectory 

[Element115]

1 minute ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

Fine, lets say he wasn't raw.  He still was not the sure fire prospect you are pretending he was. MOREOVER, we did not have a GM! Do you recommend teams draft the player that will define the next 3 years without a GM or executive staff?  

 

That's one point I have to concede, I am assuming Bean and McDermott were talking prior to the 2017 draft.  

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

2 minutes ago, Element115 said:

 

That's one point I have to concede, I am assuming Bean and McDermott were talking prior to the 2017 draft.  

 

I hope they weren't. If they acted with that little professional ethics I would not want them running this team.  However, their behavior since taking over tells me that is not their M.O. It would be highly improper if they communicated before the move (especially in light of the Rooney rule, which I think also applies to GMs), and I have a difficult time believing they did.  

[Element115]

Just now, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

I hope they weren't. If they acted with that little professional ethics I would not want them running this team.  However, their behavior since taking over tells me that is not their M.O. It would be highly improper if they communicated before the move (especially in light of the Rooney rule, which I think also applies to GMs), and I have a difficult time believing they did.  

 

I don't recall the Bills interviewing a black GM candidate before hiring Beane, maybe they did.  However, I think it makes sense that McDermott was going to bring along Beane wherever he went.

[thebandit27]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Oh for sure.  But Mahomes and Watson were monsters in their second season. Mitch has pretty decent numbers.  I don’t think another from this class will top Watson/ Mahomes but I would love to see it.

 

That's certainly a fair viewpoint.

 

Let me ask this: suppose all 3 of Mahomes/Watson/Trubisky live up to the hype...and then 4 of Baker/Darnold/Allen/Jackson/Rosen become franchise guys.  Even if the quality of the '18 class on a per-QB basis doesn't quite catch the '17 class, which would be the better class?

 

Because that's part of the argument: if Beane and McDermott felt like they had a better shot at a franchise QB based upon quantity of available prospects, that weighs into it.

 

I also think that the appraisal of their passing on Mahomes is really quite simple: McDermott was here, Beane wasn't. McDermott didn't want to make a call on a franchise QB draft pick without having the input of his hand-picked GM, so he kicked the can down the road.

 

Right or wrong, that was the decision.

2 minutes ago, Element115 said:

 

I don't recall the Bills interviewing a black GM candidate before hiring Beane, maybe they did.  However, I think it makes sense that McDermott was going to bring along Beane wherever he went.

 

They interviewed Trey Brown from Philly--he's the guy that was on the Microsoft tablet commercial that aired all season last year.

[teef]

14 minutes ago, Element115 said:

 

I only think about it when discussing Buffalo Bills football.  And I really only do that at work and here, so.

i would think it would bother you more that the bills passed on tom brady multiple times.  do you think about that a lot too?

[Element115]

Just now, teef said:

i would think it would bother you more that the bills passed on tom brady multiple times.  do you think about that a lot too?

 

No, because that is not comparable, like at all. Brady was basically a non-existent prospect.  And I do remember watching that draft and the Brady pick.

[ColoradoBills]

18 minutes ago, Element115 said:

 

Opposing views do not make one a troll, in fact, the ones always screaming troll are generally the fascists of the group.  

 

LOL, equating even the most "blind faith" fans of a football team to that seems a little "dramatic".

[Element115]

Just now, ColoradoBills said:

 

LOL, equating even the most "blind faith" fans of a football team to that seems a little "dramatic".

 

Not really, fandom can reach cult-like indoctrination levels.

[Dablitzkrieg]

51 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

McD is a coach, not a QB elevator. The guy they planned to hire and trust to evaluate the position wasn't with the team. We are not talking about a guarantee. Drafting your franchise QB is always a gamble. Even the best prospects fail half the time, and Mahomes was farrrrr from the best prospect.  It would be insane to make that gamble under those circumstances.  

This is a lazy take.  The head coach needs to be both imo.  If you cant evaluate talent, you shouldnt be a head coach.

1 minute ago, Element115 said:

 

Not really, fandom can reach cult-like indoctrination levels.

You have crossed over into the troll department at this point.  You are just trying to get a rise out of people.  Just give it a rest

[teef]

Just now, Element115 said:

 

No, because that is not comparable, like at all. Brady was basically a non-existent prospect.  And I do remember watching that draft and the Brady pick.

my point is why keep harping on it?  what's done is done.  you say you want to talk about the buffalo bills, yet you spend a lot of time talking about a qb on another team.  i personally like to concentrate on what will or will not help this team moving forward, not what happened in past drafts.  it seems like you're doing that for the sake of complaining, and turning this thread into something it doesn't need to be.

 

again, this nonsense is why you're literally on your 4th screen name since you've been here.  what is going on in your life that a message board is something you have trouble dealing with?  do you have trouble with other interpersonal relationships?  it's kinda sad t-bomb, white dwarf, macgyver and element115.  4 names bud.

[NoHuddleKelly12]

11 hours ago, Warcodered said:

Adam Gase is perpetually staring at the end of time and space.

 

Well, it is a fascinating place to look at...

 

[Element115]

4 minutes ago, teef said:

my point is why keep harping on it?  what's done is done.

 

Because the FO and coaching are continually evaluated, just like players.  Their past decisions add to the database used by fans and others to form opinions on the state of their favorite team(s).

6 minutes ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

You have crossed over into the troll department at this point.  You are just trying to get a rise out of people.  Just give it a rest

 

Sorry, I should have said online fandom. Might have to be a European football fan to see it IRL.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Element115

[jkeerie]

1 hour ago, BarleyNY said:

 

I can’t believe that people still come up with crap like this.  So much garbage.  Believe it or not, the Bills could’ve provided quality coaching to a rookie QB and sat him for a season (if needed) behind an acceptable bridge QB.  In fact, one was on the team in Tyrod Taylor.  They hadn’t even extended him yet.  And the fans would have been fine with it.  They were fine with that same idea when Allen was drafted - they just didn’t want it to be Peterman (understandably).  They were counting on McCarron to be that guy.  The situation with Taylor and Mahomes would’ve been much, much better with a better vet and rookie.  The only problem some people had at the time was moving on from Taylor and not wanting to take a step back.  Many were in “win now” mode and wanted to end the playoff drought regardless of the long term futility. 

That is a possibility...but who would Mahomes have been throwing to?  Mahomes is good...no doubt...but look at his supporting cast.  Having Tyreek Hill and Kelce to throw to helped his development tremendously.  Now they've added more speed in Williams.  Mahomes just has to throw the ball.  They will go get it.

 

I just don't think it would have looked that pretty on the Bills considering the supporting cast.

[Dablitzkrieg]

6 minutes ago, Element115 said:

 

Because the FO and coaching are continually evaluated, just like players.  Their past decisions add to the database used by fans and others to form opinions on the state of their favorite team(s).

 

Sorry, I should have said online fandom. Might have to be a European football fan to see it IRL.

I don't need to be anything outside of myself to see that you are just being a troll.  Regardless of what you "see".  No need to be pompous about anything, you are no better that us lowly Americans.

[ColoradoBills]

9 minutes ago, Element115 said:

 

Not really, fandom can reach cult-like indoctrination levels.

 

LOL, you missed my point entirely.  I'll "bow out" of this thread now.