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Bills 2017 Draft - It Might Be Really Good

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55 minutes ago, Chemical said:

 

 

Not when he could've been Watson or Mahomes. It's not asking too much either, they went out of their way to screw it up. We needed a QB, take a QB, then take another one and another until you have a good one, then take another one that might be better.

 

Zay Jones get a pass from fans for some reason I'll never understand. OBJ makes an arrogant comment in an interview and everyone here hates him. Meanwhile, Zay Jones is on video trying to jump through a window naked and everyone loves him.

 

This kind of take drives me crazy...nothing you said here was really accurate at the time.  

  1. Our offense in the 15 games under Tyrod (they sat him the last game of the season) was 3rd in the NFL in Touchdowns scored behind only Saints and Atlanta (and only a few behind them) and 5th in the NFL in scoring.  We had the #1 rushing attack in the NFL too.
  2. Our defense however was a mirage at being mediocre because Brady had been suspended, Gronk was hurt, Jimmy G was hurt, and so was the rookie QB who started week 4 and we shut them out.  Because of that shutout, we were like 18th or something the league in points allowed.  However, in the other 15 games that weren't such a disastrous anomaly for the opponent, we were 26th in the NFL in points allowed.  Plus, had Brady played week 4, they likely put up over 30 points on us like he did a few weeks later and that would have dropped us to 28th.  

McD had just gotten here and came from a team with a dual threat QB.  He had not yet worked Tyrod yet, who had only 3 seasons as a starter still yet had 3 different OC's in that span.  However, despite that, it was the 2nd highest scoring stretch in Buffalo Bills history, and second only to the first 3 SB years.  He was also a 2 time Pro Bowler at that point too.

 

It was NOT a lock we needed a QB, however, our defense was one of the worst in the NFL while our offense was scoring well.  In fact, McD managed to take that team and break our playoff streak of 17 years and get that monkey off this franchises back by simply improving the defense.  And going into the draft, Mahomes was HIGHLY debated as if he was even a first round graded prospect.  Watson wasn't a slam dunk either, so its not like they passed on prospects as touted as a Luck or Manning were.  

 

Almost no one here wanted Mahomes, but people LOVE talking from the future while ignoring the reality of what was going on at the time things happened.  

 

And quite frankly, if Allen pans out (and its looking good so far), this would have been a tremendous path he took.  That draft in 2017 is looking very strong for us moving forward as Tre is already a top CB in this league, Milano was on his way to being a very good LB before he got hurt last year, Dawkins was pretty good when he wasn't playing with TERRIBLE lineman around him, and that draft would be even better draft if Zay takes a step forward this year.

 

If Allen pans out, I would rather have Allen, Tre, Dawkins, Milano, Zay, Edmunds to go with new guys like Ford and Oliver this year.  Mahomes was added to an already very good roster.  McD and Beane have had to rebuild an entire organization, cap situation, and roster and in that first season with McD and Whaley, he had not yet known what he had here he could work with and what needed to go.  

 

BOTTOM LINE:  There is MORE than ONE way to build a contender...you have NO evidence that the path we have taken is wrong or not going to work, and right now, the momentum is upward and things look quite promising.  So get over Mahomes and Watson, things STILL worked out pretty well for us in that draft and things are pretty exciting right now.

Edited by Alphadawg7
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1 minute ago, Chemical said:

Be honest with yourselves and think back to the day before the 2017 draft. Tyrod clearly wasn't the future. We need a QB. Imagine what you thought the possibilities were.

 

That draft could not have gone worse for the Buffalo Bills in your wildest nightmares.

 

Watson 103 rating 68% completions 2 years in a row

Mahomes is Michael Jordan

Nathan Peterman...

 

 

 

This is absolutely true, we could have had them. My only problem is, I really would not trust Whaley to make a decision such as that. 

Edited by Bills2ref
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Just now, Bills2ref said:

 

This is absolutely true. My only problem is, I really would not trust Whaley to make a decision such as that. 

 

 I don't even blame anyone it's just comically tragic.

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The Bills should have fired Whaley as soon as they decided he couldn't talk in public.  Then they should have hired Beane and had him & McDermott run the draft together.  A while ago someone suggested the reason they didn't pick a QB was because they wanted it to be the new GM's choice, that's fine if Allen becomes equal or better than Mahomes & Watson, as we all hope he will be, but if they both end up better than Allen, the Bills made a huge mistake not having the pieces in place to properly evaluate the QB class of 2017.  

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13 minutes ago, Chemical said:

 

This thread is about the 2017 draft

When we traded our pick in order to get a 1st rounder in the next draft presumably (and as it turned out) to get one of the QBs from a rich draft, so judging it in isolation and acting like the 2017 draft had nothing to do with picking Allen is disingenuous at best. If we got a shutdown CB and Allen turns out to be on the same level as Mahomes, I'd call that a win and a better outcome than JUST getting Mahomes or Watson. 

 

One could also argue it set up getting another pick in the 1st round used to pick a potentially elite LB.

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1 minute ago, thurst44 said:

When we traded our pick in order to get a 1st rounder in the next draft presumably (and as it turned out) to get one of the QBs from a rich draft, so judging it in isolation and acting like the 2017 draft had nothing to do with picking Allen is disingenuous at best. If we got a shutdown CB and Allen turns out to be on the same level as Mahomes, I'd call that a win and a better outcome than JUST getting Mahomes or Watson. 

 

One could also argue it set up getting another pick in the 1st round used to pick a potentially elite LB.

 

Don't hold your breath.

 

Actually, maybe when we get him some weapons it'll happen. I really like Allen but it's insane to say that.

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1 minute ago, Chemical said:

 

Don't hold your breath.

 

Actually, maybe when we get him some weapons it'll happen. I really like Allen but it's insane to say that.

How is it "insane" to suggest that a quarterback considered by many experts as the best QB in a strong QB draft could develop into one of the top quarterbacks in the NFL. Yes, he's polarizing. I was not initially a fan, but to write off a QB after one season (where he went 5-5 in full games as the team went 1-5 when he did not play a full game) as "insane" seems a bit extreme. 

 

I was not saying he was at Mahomes' level last year, but Mahomes was a second-year QB. Let's actually see what he does this year before dismissing him. 

 

My point is IF Allen works out, then the Bills win b/c they got an elite QB AND CB, as opposed to just a QB. It's a gamble, but the book is far from closed. 

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3 minutes ago, thurst44 said:

How is it "insane" to suggest that a quarterback considered by many experts as the best QB in a strong QB draft could develop into one of the top quarterbacks in the NFL. Yes, he's polarizing. I was not initially a fan, but to write off a QB after one season (where he went 5-5 in full games as the team went 1-5 when he did not play a full game) as "insane" seems a bit extreme. 

 

I was not saying he was at Mahomes' level last year, but Mahomes was a second-year QB. Let's actually see what he does this year before dismissing him. 

 

My point is IF Allen works out, then the Bills win b/c they got an elite QB AND CB, as opposed to just a QB. It's a gamble, but the book is far from closed. 

 

I’m not writing him off at all. Mahomes had one of the best seasons of any QB ever on his first try. It’s just not realistic or fair to think Allen will be that good. Nothing against Allen in the slightest. 

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42 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Yes.  And we didn't take Mahomes or Watson. 

 

Mahomes for

Tre White 
4th used to trade up for zay (not a big fan, couldve stayed put and still got JuJu)
1st (22) traded with 65 (tyrod pick) for Edmunds and Siran Neal

 

So the picks ended up getting us a franchise CB, MLB, depth safety/big nickel, and a so far so-so WR.  It could be a LOT worse than that.  

 

KC got a franchise QB.  So they're winning... But a lot of that stems from having Hill on a dirt contract through 2019.  They are able to overpay watkins because the average between the 2 is less than what we pay beasley and brown.  They also have one of the better coaches in the business. 

 

One of the other factors with Mahomes is - they were 12-4 pre-mahomes, and 10-6 his rookie year when he didn't play, and 12-4 with him.  Their offense was absolutely prolific with him, and all the losses were close... he's obviously an elite player.  But coming out he had a lot of the same evaluation issues as allen.  Comp% was higher but he also played at TT where the reads are all half field and its a lot of short passing (he needed time to sit and learn just like Allen).  It's hard to say how good he'd be in a buffalo uniform when he would have inevitably taken the job from tyrod and thrown passes to benjamin and holmes vs. kelce and hill.

 

As for 2017 in general

 

White - great

Jones - fine but improving vs what we got in 2017

Dawkins - Starter, yet to prove if he's good or not

Milano - Great

 

We got 2 great players and 2 other starters in 2017.  I can't say thats a bad thing.  If dawkins and jones become good players its even better.  

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27 minutes ago, Chemical said:

 

Don't hold your breath.

 

Actually, maybe when we get him some weapons it'll happen. I really like Allen but it's insane to say that.

Who's the TBD poster that 2 years ago was constantly singing the praises of Mahones. He no longer posts. I want him as my GM.

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58 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

OBJ has been hated in Buffalo since his game here in 2015.

 

 

Bills fans hated a guy for his 5 catch, 38 yard, 0 TD performance?

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7 minutes ago, Chemical said:

 

I’m not writing him off at all. Mahomes had one of the best seasons of any QB ever on his first try. It’s just not realistic or fair to think Allen will be that good. Nothing against Allen in the slightest. 

 

Nope - Daboll is no andy reid either so he doesn't exactly have the best guys in the room with him.  

 

Cam Newton 2015 would be like - my guess as to the best version of Allen we could get?  Or 2017 Russel Wilson?  Lets face it - he isn't ever going to be drew brees accurate.  Plugging him into a Stafford style offense would be a waste of what he is.  

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5 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

Mahomes for

Tre White 
4th used to trade up for zay (not a big fan, couldve stayed put and still got JuJu)
1st (22) traded with 65 (tyrod pick) for Edmunds and Siran Neal

 

So the picks ended up getting us a franchise CB, MLB, depth safety/big nickel, and a so far so-so WR.  It could be a LOT worse than that.  

 

KC got a franchise QB.  So they're winning... But a lot of that stems from having Hill on a dirt contract through 2019.  They are able to overpay watkins because the average between the 2 is less than what we pay beasley and brown.  They also have one of the better coaches in the business. 

 

One of the other factors with Mahomes is - they were 12-4 pre-mahomes, and 10-6 his rookie year when he didn't play, and 12-4 with him.  Their offense was absolutely prolific with him, and all the losses were close... he's obviously an elite player.  But coming out he had a lot of the same evaluation issues as allen.  Comp% was higher but he also played at TT where the reads are all half field and its a lot of short passing (he needed time to sit and learn just like Allen).  It's hard to say how good he'd be in a buffalo uniform when he would have inevitably taken the job from tyrod and thrown passes to benjamin and holmes vs. kelce and hill.

 

As for 2017 in general

 

White - great

Jones - fine but improving vs what we got in 2017

Dawkins - Starter, yet to prove if he's good or not

Milano - Great

 

We got 2 great players and 2 other starters in 2017.  I can't say thats a bad thing.  If dawkins and jones become good players its even better.  

 

Every team who passed on Mahomes blew it too, as did every other team that didn’t trade up for him unless they had a top 5 QB who was also young. Is there some statute of limitations? A point where we can no longer complain about this? As you mention, there were concerns about Mahomes coming out. It was not a LeBron James slam dunk. We had a lame duck GM, and it was a good year for QB’s the following draft. It happened, and I prefer to look forward rather than dwell in the past. 

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1 hour ago, Chemical said:

Milano is the only good pick. We traded the pick that was Mahomes, but at least we got a QB in the 5th!

 

 

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2 hours ago, BillsfaninSB said:

As training camp approaches I was thinking about personnel and how the 4 main picks from the 2017 draft could play a crucial part in this team’s success.   If Jones takes it to another level and Dawkins and Milano continue to progress, I have to give McDermott a lot a credit for his first draft while strapped with a lame duck GM. 

 

I can understand if many see whiffing on Mahommes as unforgivable, but that aside, the HC may have done really well for his 1st draft and makes me optimistic that he gets it.

 

We don’t know yet if it is a great draft but given the previous regimes track record it’s lookin pretty good. 

 

 

The Bills traded away the opportunity to draft Patrick Mahomes.  That will haunt the 2017 draft unless Allen turns into a HOF QB because that looks like where Mahomes is heading.  Trading away the opportunity to draft a franchise QB in order to take a DB, no matter how good, is a mistake.   Great DBs are a dime a dozen compared to great QBs, and the difference in importance between the two positions is immeasurable.

The Bills wasted a pick in trading up to take Zay Jones, who has only been a starter because the Bills don't have anybody better -- while JuJu Smith-Schuster was still on the board.

The Bills traded up to take Dion Dawkins.  That might or might not be a worthwhile pick but Dawkins has to step up and not be a starter simply because -- again -- there's nobody better.

Milano is a good pick for a fifth round pick.

 

A good draft produces players who can start on most teams in the NFL.  The 2017 draft produced 1 player, White, and maybe another in Milano.  Jones wouldn't start on most NFL teams, and Dawkins wouldn't be good enough to start on many.  

 

A great draft produces elite and excellent players, and the Bills passed on one when they had the opportunity.

Edited by SoTier

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Just now, Augie said:

 

Every team who passed on Mahomes blew it too, as did every other team that didn’t trade up for him unless they had a top 5 QB who was also young. Is there some statute of limitations? A point where we can no longer complain about this? As you mention, there were concerns about Mahomes coming out. It was not a LeBron James slam dunk. We had a lame duck GM, and it was a good year for QB’s the following draft. It happened, and I prefer to look forward rather than dwell in the past. 

 

I think if he had been a senior and attended the senior bowl we would have picked him.  Possibly same as Watson.  


McD was making the final call - he only got to work with and spend a ton of time with players at the senior bowl.  Hence picking: White, Jones, Dawkins, Peterman.  

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7 minutes ago, billykay said:

Who's the TBD poster that 2 years ago was constantly singing the praises of Mahones. He no longer posts. I want him as my GM.

 

JeffisMagic just couldn’t let it go. As it turns out, it appears he was correct on this one, but he became obsessed and unbearable! 

 

BTW - I heard someone (analytics guy I think on Cowherd today) say Mahomes is a likely candidate for a huge drop off. No surprise, since he could de that and still have a great year, but caught my ear. I just wish he’d lost Hill, unless he helps them knock off the Cheaters*. 

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2 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

JeffisMagic just couldn’t let it go. As it turns out, it appears he was correct on this one, but he became obsessed and unbearable! 

 

BTW - I heard someone (analytics guy I think on Cowherd today) say Mahomes is a likely candidate for a huge drop off. No surprise, since he could de that and still have a great year, but caught my ear. I just wish he’d lost Hill, unless he helps them knock off the Cheaters*. 

 

Yeah - its the same as the allen haters on twitter.  They would rather be right about him failing... than just root for their own teams success.  Its unbearable.

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1 hour ago, BillsfaninSB said:

 

To say everyone here loves Zay is a huge leap.  He is our guy and will get the benefit of doubt.   He will be under the microscope this TC and season (if he makes the team).

 

I think he’s very average and Zay in the 2nd round is looking like a little bit of a reach.  Do you think they could get a second back for him in 2019?

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2 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

Every team who passed on Mahomes blew it too, as did every other team that didn’t trade up for him unless they had a top 5 QB who was also young. Is there some statute of limitations? A point where we can no longer complain about this? As you mention, there were concerns about Mahomes coming out. It was not a LeBron James slam dunk. We had a lame duck GM, and it was a good year for QB’s the following draft. It happened, and I prefer to look forward rather than dwell in the past. 

 

....and how many wanted no part of Mahomes because he was from the leper like "Air Raid Offense"?.....plenty of "an Air Raid QB NEVER makes it in the NFL" quotes abound....and now the ongoing "shoulda...coulda...woulda syndrome"......while awaiting mea culpas from the "NEVER" crowd on the "we blew it wagon"....crickets..........certainly a superb 2nd year and now let's see if opposing DC's have an answer.......will be interesting season for the youngster....fun to watch....

 

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