Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
BillsfaninSB

Bills 2017 Draft - It Might Be Really Good

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, thurst44 said:

When we traded our pick in order to get a 1st rounder in the next draft presumably (and as it turned out) to get one of the QBs from a rich draft, so judging it in isolation and acting like the 2017 draft had nothing to do with picking Allen is disingenuous at best. If we got a shutdown CB and Allen turns out to be on the same level as Mahomes, I'd call that a win and a better outcome than JUST getting Mahomes or Watson. 

 

One could also argue it set up getting another pick in the 1st round used to pick a potentially elite LB.

 

Don't hold your breath.

 

Actually, maybe when we get him some weapons it'll happen. I really like Allen but it's insane to say that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Chemical said:

 

Don't hold your breath.

 

Actually, maybe when we get him some weapons it'll happen. I really like Allen but it's insane to say that.

How is it "insane" to suggest that a quarterback considered by many experts as the best QB in a strong QB draft could develop into one of the top quarterbacks in the NFL. Yes, he's polarizing. I was not initially a fan, but to write off a QB after one season (where he went 5-5 in full games as the team went 1-5 when he did not play a full game) as "insane" seems a bit extreme. 

 

I was not saying he was at Mahomes' level last year, but Mahomes was a second-year QB. Let's actually see what he does this year before dismissing him. 

 

My point is IF Allen works out, then the Bills win b/c they got an elite QB AND CB, as opposed to just a QB. It's a gamble, but the book is far from closed. 

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, thurst44 said:

How is it "insane" to suggest that a quarterback considered by many experts as the best QB in a strong QB draft could develop into one of the top quarterbacks in the NFL. Yes, he's polarizing. I was not initially a fan, but to write off a QB after one season (where he went 5-5 in full games as the team went 1-5 when he did not play a full game) as "insane" seems a bit extreme. 

 

I was not saying he was at Mahomes' level last year, but Mahomes was a second-year QB. Let's actually see what he does this year before dismissing him. 

 

My point is IF Allen works out, then the Bills win b/c they got an elite QB AND CB, as opposed to just a QB. It's a gamble, but the book is far from closed. 

 

I’m not writing him off at all. Mahomes had one of the best seasons of any QB ever on his first try. It’s just not realistic or fair to think Allen will be that good. Nothing against Allen in the slightest. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Yes.  And we didn't take Mahomes or Watson. 

 

Mahomes for

Tre White 
4th used to trade up for zay (not a big fan, couldve stayed put and still got JuJu)
1st (22) traded with 65 (tyrod pick) for Edmunds and Siran Neal

 

So the picks ended up getting us a franchise CB, MLB, depth safety/big nickel, and a so far so-so WR.  It could be a LOT worse than that.  

 

KC got a franchise QB.  So they're winning... But a lot of that stems from having Hill on a dirt contract through 2019.  They are able to overpay watkins because the average between the 2 is less than what we pay beasley and brown.  They also have one of the better coaches in the business. 

 

One of the other factors with Mahomes is - they were 12-4 pre-mahomes, and 10-6 his rookie year when he didn't play, and 12-4 with him.  Their offense was absolutely prolific with him, and all the losses were close... he's obviously an elite player.  But coming out he had a lot of the same evaluation issues as allen.  Comp% was higher but he also played at TT where the reads are all half field and its a lot of short passing (he needed time to sit and learn just like Allen).  It's hard to say how good he'd be in a buffalo uniform when he would have inevitably taken the job from tyrod and thrown passes to benjamin and holmes vs. kelce and hill.

 

As for 2017 in general

 

White - great

Jones - fine but improving vs what we got in 2017

Dawkins - Starter, yet to prove if he's good or not

Milano - Great

 

We got 2 great players and 2 other starters in 2017.  I can't say thats a bad thing.  If dawkins and jones become good players its even better.  

  • Like (+1) 3
  • Awesome! (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Chemical said:

 

Don't hold your breath.

 

Actually, maybe when we get him some weapons it'll happen. I really like Allen but it's insane to say that.

Who's the TBD poster that 2 years ago was constantly singing the praises of Mahones. He no longer posts. I want him as my GM.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

OBJ has been hated in Buffalo since his game here in 2015.

 

 

Bills fans hated a guy for his 5 catch, 38 yard, 0 TD performance?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Chemical said:

 

I’m not writing him off at all. Mahomes had one of the best seasons of any QB ever on his first try. It’s just not realistic or fair to think Allen will be that good. Nothing against Allen in the slightest. 

 

Nope - Daboll is no andy reid either so he doesn't exactly have the best guys in the room with him.  

 

Cam Newton 2015 would be like - my guess as to the best version of Allen we could get?  Or 2017 Russel Wilson?  Lets face it - he isn't ever going to be drew brees accurate.  Plugging him into a Stafford style offense would be a waste of what he is.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

Mahomes for

Tre White 
4th used to trade up for zay (not a big fan, couldve stayed put and still got JuJu)
1st (22) traded with 65 (tyrod pick) for Edmunds and Siran Neal

 

So the picks ended up getting us a franchise CB, MLB, depth safety/big nickel, and a so far so-so WR.  It could be a LOT worse than that.  

 

KC got a franchise QB.  So they're winning... But a lot of that stems from having Hill on a dirt contract through 2019.  They are able to overpay watkins because the average between the 2 is less than what we pay beasley and brown.  They also have one of the better coaches in the business. 

 

One of the other factors with Mahomes is - they were 12-4 pre-mahomes, and 10-6 his rookie year when he didn't play, and 12-4 with him.  Their offense was absolutely prolific with him, and all the losses were close... he's obviously an elite player.  But coming out he had a lot of the same evaluation issues as allen.  Comp% was higher but he also played at TT where the reads are all half field and its a lot of short passing (he needed time to sit and learn just like Allen).  It's hard to say how good he'd be in a buffalo uniform when he would have inevitably taken the job from tyrod and thrown passes to benjamin and holmes vs. kelce and hill.

 

As for 2017 in general

 

White - great

Jones - fine but improving vs what we got in 2017

Dawkins - Starter, yet to prove if he's good or not

Milano - Great

 

We got 2 great players and 2 other starters in 2017.  I can't say thats a bad thing.  If dawkins and jones become good players its even better.  

 

Every team who passed on Mahomes blew it too, as did every other team that didn’t trade up for him unless they had a top 5 QB who was also young. Is there some statute of limitations? A point where we can no longer complain about this? As you mention, there were concerns about Mahomes coming out. It was not a LeBron James slam dunk. We had a lame duck GM, and it was a good year for QB’s the following draft. It happened, and I prefer to look forward rather than dwell in the past. 

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Chemical said:

Milano is the only good pick. We traded the pick that was Mahomes, but at least we got a QB in the 5th!

 

 

troll.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, BillsfaninSB said:

As training camp approaches I was thinking about personnel and how the 4 main picks from the 2017 draft could play a crucial part in this team’s success.   If Jones takes it to another level and Dawkins and Milano continue to progress, I have to give McDermott a lot a credit for his first draft while strapped with a lame duck GM. 

 

I can understand if many see whiffing on Mahommes as unforgivable, but that aside, the HC may have done really well for his 1st draft and makes me optimistic that he gets it.

 

We don’t know yet if it is a great draft but given the previous regimes track record it’s lookin pretty good. 

 

 

The Bills traded away the opportunity to draft Patrick Mahomes.  That will haunt the 2017 draft unless Allen turns into a HOF QB because that looks like where Mahomes is heading.  Trading away the opportunity to draft a franchise QB in order to take a DB, no matter how good, is a mistake.   Great DBs are a dime a dozen compared to great QBs, and the difference in importance between the two positions is immeasurable.

The Bills wasted a pick in trading up to take Zay Jones, who has only been a starter because the Bills don't have anybody better -- while JuJu Smith-Schuster was still on the board.

The Bills traded up to take Dion Dawkins.  That might or might not be a worthwhile pick but Dawkins has to step up and not be a starter simply because -- again -- there's nobody better.

Milano is a good pick for a fifth round pick.

 

A good draft produces players who can start on most teams in the NFL.  The 2017 draft produced 1 player, White, and maybe another in Milano.  Jones wouldn't start on most NFL teams, and Dawkins wouldn't be good enough to start on many.  

 

A great draft produces elite and excellent players, and the Bills passed on one when they had the opportunity.

Edited by SoTier

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Augie said:

 

Every team who passed on Mahomes blew it too, as did every other team that didn’t trade up for him unless they had a top 5 QB who was also young. Is there some statute of limitations? A point where we can no longer complain about this? As you mention, there were concerns about Mahomes coming out. It was not a LeBron James slam dunk. We had a lame duck GM, and it was a good year for QB’s the following draft. It happened, and I prefer to look forward rather than dwell in the past. 

 

I think if he had been a senior and attended the senior bowl we would have picked him.  Possibly same as Watson.  


McD was making the final call - he only got to work with and spend a ton of time with players at the senior bowl.  Hence picking: White, Jones, Dawkins, Peterman.  

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, billykay said:

Who's the TBD poster that 2 years ago was constantly singing the praises of Mahones. He no longer posts. I want him as my GM.

 

JeffisMagic just couldn’t let it go. As it turns out, it appears he was correct on this one, but he became obsessed and unbearable! 

 

BTW - I heard someone (analytics guy I think on Cowherd today) say Mahomes is a likely candidate for a huge drop off. No surprise, since he could de that and still have a great year, but caught my ear. I just wish he’d lost Hill, unless he helps them knock off the Cheaters*. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

JeffisMagic just couldn’t let it go. As it turns out, it appears he was correct on this one, but he became obsessed and unbearable! 

 

BTW - I heard someone (analytics guy I think on Cowherd today) say Mahomes is a likely candidate for a huge drop off. No surprise, since he could de that and still have a great year, but caught my ear. I just wish he’d lost Hill, unless he helps them knock off the Cheaters*. 

 

Yeah - its the same as the allen haters on twitter.  They would rather be right about him failing... than just root for their own teams success.  Its unbearable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, BillsfaninSB said:

 

To say everyone here loves Zay is a huge leap.  He is our guy and will get the benefit of doubt.   He will be under the microscope this TC and season (if he makes the team).

 

I think he’s very average and Zay in the 2nd round is looking like a little bit of a reach.  Do you think they could get a second back for him in 2019?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

Every team who passed on Mahomes blew it too, as did every other team that didn’t trade up for him unless they had a top 5 QB who was also young. Is there some statute of limitations? A point where we can no longer complain about this? As you mention, there were concerns about Mahomes coming out. It was not a LeBron James slam dunk. We had a lame duck GM, and it was a good year for QB’s the following draft. It happened, and I prefer to look forward rather than dwell in the past. 

 

....and how many wanted no part of Mahomes because he was from the leper like "Air Raid Offense"?.....plenty of "an Air Raid QB NEVER makes it in the NFL" quotes abound....and now the ongoing "shoulda...coulda...woulda syndrome"......while awaiting mea culpas from the "NEVER" crowd on the "we blew it wagon"....crickets..........certainly a superb 2nd year and now let's see if opposing DC's have an answer.......will be interesting season for the youngster....fun to watch....

 

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

The Bills traded away the opportunity to draft Patrick Mahomes.  That will haunt the 2017 draft unless Allen turns into a HOF QB because that looks like where Mahomes is heading.  Trading away the opportunity to draft a franchise QB in order to take a DB, no matter how good, is a mistake.   Great DBs are a dime a dozen compared to great QBs, and the difference in importance between the two positions is immeasurable.

The Bills wasted a pick in trading up to take Zay Jones, who has only been a starter because the Bills don't have anybody better -- while JuJu Smith-Schuster was still on the board.

The Bills traded up to take Dion Dawkins.  That might or might not be a worthwhile pick but Dawkins has to step up and not be a starter simply because -- again -- there's nobody better.

Milano is a good pick for a fifth round pick.

 

A good draft produces players who can start on most teams in the NFL.  The 2017 draft produce 1 player, White, and maybe another in Milano.  Jones wouldn't start on most NFL teams, and Dawkins wouldn't be good enough to start on many.  

 

A great draft produces elite and excellent players, and the Bills passed on one when they had the opportunity.


At least the guy they acquired in the trade down is an elite player.  


I'm not a big fan of the zay pick, for the same reasons.  He doesn't project as a #1 and you could have stood pat and ended up with either the same players, or JuJu/Dawkins, or Kupp/Dawkins.  He has also improved a bunch, and i wouldn't consider a flat-out bust.  

 

Dawkins was actually pretty good as a rookie, and i like the Beane method of improvement.  I brought in guys to take your job because you weren't good enough.  Get better or get on the bench.

 

Milano has been excellent for a 5th round pick.  


No busts til pick 171 - added a 1st for 2018, then dismantled a flawed roster and ate the dead cap to prepare for the future.  4 Good players to add to a re-build on the fly.

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, dneveu said:

 

Yeah - its the same as the allen haters on twitter.  They would rather be right about him failing... than just root for their own teams success.  Its unbearable.

 

You just made me happy I never bothered with twitter! I couldn’t take much more of that!

 

But you’re right, some people would rather be right than see their team succeed. I don’t get that, and while I recognize all is not perfect, I prefer to live with a positive attitude, and I like our direction. If Josh is NOT the guy, I’d lean to give them another crack at QB. Franchise QB is a crapshoot at best.  If we go 2-14 (as we did back to back right after I got married and my bride asked “why do you do this to yourself?” I’m MUCH BETTER now!) it will be disappointing, but hardly change my life. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

Hindsight is great.  All these people saying "we should have taken Mahomes or Watson" never said a word about them before the draft.

So completely false.  I wanted both guys.  I loved Mahomes tools and production (Tech guys are hard to predict but Mahomes was so physically gifted) and loved Watson because he was a winner and played the best in title games.  There were a few other posters who said the same.  So unless Allen because a franchise guy, it’s hard to just her past not drafting either qb.  

 

It also included the awful Zay trade up.  The other guys are nice players but they don’t matter if you past on elite QBs.

  • Like (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

So completely false.  I wanted both guys.  I loved Mahomes tools and production (Tech guys are hard to predict but Mahomes was so physically gifted) and loved Watson because he was a winner and played the best in title games.  There were a few other posters who said the same.  So unless Allen because a franchise guy, it’s hard to just her past not drafting either qb.  

 

It also included the awful Zay trade up.  The other guys are nice players but they don’t matter if you past on elite QBs.

 

I liked Mahomes, was turned off by Watsons arm issues at the combine or whatever.  Low velocity or something seemed a bit of a concern pre-draft.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

....and how many wanted no part of Mahomes because he was from the leper like "Air Raid Offense"?.....plenty of "an Air Raid QB NEVER makes it in the NFL" quotes abound....and now the ongoing "shoulda...coulda...woulda syndrome"......while awaiting mea culpas from the "NEVER" crowd on the "we blew it wagon"....crickets..........certainly a superb 2nd year and now let's see if opposing DC's have an answer.......will be interesting season for the youngster....fun to watch....

 

 

Lots of talk about the sloppy footwork, too. Could he clean it up? He’s certainly very talented, but he also had a PERFECT situation. Far better than what Josh stepped into. How does it turn out? Time will tell.......I’m not saying Josh will be Mahomes one day, but one can hope he has a terrific career with the Bills. . 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, dneveu said:

 

I liked Mahomes, was turned off by Watsons arm issues at the combine or whatever.  Low velocity or something seemed a bit of a concern pre-draft.  

That’s fair.  I think I was worried about that and his size but dominating Bama 2 years in a row eased my mind.   He is really good and plays behind an awful oline. 

2 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

Lots of talk about the sloppy footwork, too. Could he clean it up? He’s certainly very talented, but he also had a PERFECT situation. Far better than what Josh stepped into. How does it turn out? Time will tell.......I’m not saying Josh will be Mahomes one day, but one can hope he has a terrific career with the Bills. . 

But Mahomes got selected by a great offensive coach who recognized his talent.  Allen got selected by a defensive coach and a guy who has a terrible NFL resume (Daboll).  That is why the pick terrifies me.  

  • Like (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

So completely false.  I wanted both guys.  I loved Mahomes tools and production (Tech guys are hard to predict but Mahomes was so physically gifted) and loved Watson because he was a winner and played the best in title games.  There were a few other posters who said the same.  So unless Allen because a franchise guy, it’s hard to just her past not drafting either qb.  

 

It also included the awful Zay trade up.  The other guys are nice players but they don’t matter if you past on elite QBs.

 

...and you knew exactly HOW that Mahomes was to be elite (SO FAR)?.....thought the quotes were "an Air Raid QB NEVER makes it in the NFL".........you know, that "leper like offense".....obviously, he had one helluva season, but let's follow him going forward before the "elite declaration"......yes, but we all know that "you knew".....um ok....

7 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

Lots of talk about the sloppy footwork, too. Could he clean it up? He’s certainly very talented, but he also had a PERFECT situation. Far better than what Josh stepped into. How does it turn out? Time will tell.......I’m not saying Josh will be Mahomes one day, but one can hope he has a terrific career with the Bills. . 

 

wholeheartedly agree Augie......sat behind Alex for a year, had a talented roster as well as an offensively minded HC.....not too bad an environment I'd say......so let's watch years 3, 4 and...???......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...and you knew exactly HOW that Mahomes was to be elite (SO FAR)?.....thought the quotes were "an Air Raid QB NEVER makes it in the NFL".........you know, that "leper like offense".....obviously, he had one helluva season, but let's follow him going forward before the "elite declaration"......yes, but we all know that "you knew".....um ok....

 

wholeheartedly agree Augie......sat behind Alex for a year, had a talented roster as well as an offensively minded HC.....not too bad an environment I'd say......so let's watch years 3, 4 and...???......

1). why couldn’t McBeane, who everyone praises, provide a similar environment?

 

2). Maybe if your former boss wants your draft pick, he wants it for a reason.  

 

I do feel bad for Allen but it will be a constant comparison.  If Allen becomes good to great, no one cares.  Anything less than that, it’s one of the worst trades in Bills history. 

  • Like (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

Hindsight is great.  All these people saying "we should have taken Mahomes or Watson" never said a word about them before the draft.

That is not true.  There were plenty of Mahomes and Watson lovers in Buffalo.  BTW way, reviewing the 2017 draft is 100% about hindsight. Drafts are about choices, you have to evaluate the choices, which includes what were the alternatives.  Phil Simms was a good QB, does that mean the Giants would not have been better off without Joe Montana? 

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, PlayoffsPlease said:

That is not true.  There were plenty of Mahomes and Watson lovers in Buffalo.  BTW way, reviewing the 2017 draft is 100% about hindsight. Drafts are about choices, you have to evaluate the choices, which includes what were the alternatives.  Phil Simms was a good QB, does that mean the Giants would not have been better off without Joe Montana? 

I will say if Allen becomes Simms to Mahomes’ Montana, I can live with that.  

  • Like (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...