Music to my ears...McD on offense

[Magox]

13 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I'm worried if he still thinks 21 is the magic number. It has to be higher than that now. But in principle, yes, I think he knows you have to score to win.

He said "at least", which means that's at the bottom of the medium, not the average.

13 hours ago, Wayne Cubed said:

Isn't 21 ppg a bottom 10 offense, in the league?

 

I think his magic number needs to be a bit higher but I like that he admits you have to score to win, an obvious observation.

Again, he said "at least".

 

 

[oldmanfan]

20 minutes ago, Hebert19 said:

He said minimum not average.  He wants to score at least 21 every game. 

At least.  Also his last statement was you have to score points to win in this league.  To get hyperbolic about his statement is, again, nitpicking nonsense.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

30 minutes ago, MPT said:

 

Read my first post. Scoring a minimum of 21 points a game (and even far exceeding that number in multiple weeks) wouldn't even guarantee a .500 season. So how am I an idiot for wanting to do better than that? 

 

Sorry, I didn't think the idea of scoring enough points to make the playoffs would offend you so much.

You’re an idiot because you actually demand that the bar needs to go up in the organization and across the fandom. 

 

There are some fans who understand this is professional sports where winning is the standard, and other fans will work relentless to manufacture excuses for the newest regime to take over.

 

I thought your arguments were well presented because they used actual Math (aka FACTS) to them back up. 

 

Stats over Stories. 

[Magox]

12 hours ago, JESSEFEFFER said:

Scoring "21 points, at least, every game" implies that they score more than that other times.  Therefore, the average is not 21, it has to be higher.  If you have an offense that scores 21 as a minimum during the season, it's pretty darn good and likely averages closer to 30 than 21.  

Thank you!  My God, I was thinking am I the only one who understands that when someone says "at least"  that explicitly implies at the very least and does not mean average?  

[Straight Hucklebuck]

2 minutes ago, Magox said:

Thank you!  My God, I was thinking am I the only one who understands that when someone says "at least"  that explicitly implies at the very least and does not mean average?  

McDermott’s plan to get there is hard work, culture, toughness, respecting the football, smarts, process.

 

Hopefully talent is one of the things he is looking for. 

[MPT]

3 minutes ago, Magox said:

He said "at least", which means that's at the bottom of the medium, not the average.

 

Again, he said "at least".

 

 

 

If you take all of last year's scores that didn't hit 21 and turn them into 21, we still miss the playoffs. Note that this means we still have 5 scores above 21 and our average PPG is 24. Also note that this means they accomplished their goal every single week and never failed. It's not a winning strategy if you do it perfectly and still don't even make the playoffs or top ten in scoring.

[oldmanfan]

6 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

You’re an idiot because you actually demand that the bar needs to go up in the organization and across the fandom. 

 

There are some fans who understand this is professional sports where winning is the standard, and other fans will work relentless to manufacture excuses for the newest regime to take over.

 

I thought your arguments were well presented because they used actual Math (aka FACTS) to them back up. 

 

Stats over Stories. 

"You have to score points to win in this league".  But you insist on taking anything said by this organization and spin it into a negative. 

 

Hyperbolic lunacy.

[The Senator]

2 minutes ago, Magox said:

Thank you!  My God, I was thinking am I the only one who understands that when someone says "at least"  that explicitly implies at the very least and does not mean average?  

 

I am still both lucid and literate - I’d have preferred if he had said at least 41 points.

 

I realize that I am, at times, given to Senatorial hyperbole, but put the right talent around Josh Allen, 41 points is a reasonable expectation.

 

As always, JMHO.

.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

"You have to score points to win in this league".  But you insist on taking anything said by this organization and spin it into a negative. 

 

Hyperbolic lunacy.

Where are the results oldmanfan? 

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

McDermott’s plan to get there is hard work, culture, toughness, respecting the football, smarts, process.

 

Hopefully talent is one of the things he is looking for. 

No they don't want talent.  They want to win without talent.  That's why they drafted guys like Allen and Edmunds, because they felt they had no talent.

 

Why do you hate the Buffalo Bills?

1 minute ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Where are the results oldmanfan? 

They made the playoffs two years ago.  They realized to take the next step they had to get a better QB and drafted him.  They knew they had to clear cap space to get better guys and did so.  That was last year.   This is this year.

 

Why do you hate the Buffalo Bills, and why continue to comment on a team you hate?

[Dopey]

7 hours ago, Bangarang said:

His actual quote was “you have to be a threat to score 21 points a game”.

 

That amounts to an average at best scoring team. Hooray

Yea, let's fire everyone!!!!

[Dopey]

7 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Its fair to, no doubt.  

 

BUT:  Lets be real on his offensive output.  

 

First year he INHERITED that team and a low scoring starting QB.  He spent a year seeing what was here and not here, and in that exploratory year he found a way to break a 17 year playoff drought that no one expected.  

 

Second year he and Beane understood this team was not ever going to get anywhere significant and we were sitting on what looked to be a very strong QB draft class.  They spent the whole offseason insuring they could get into position to reset the team and find a QB for the future.  They also set their sites on the guy with the biggest ceiling and biggest arm.  You don't go after a QB like that to play conservative football.  Additionally we had to trade an OL (underperforming in terms of his contract and injury issues) and had 2 more retire in all the same offseason, all 3 former pro bowl players.  We had a cap restrictions with dead cap space for them to clean the cap up for our future, and it worked as we have 3rd most this year and the most projected next year.  

 

So lets not mislabel here that this is McD's offense he built last 2 years.  He didnt build the first one, and year 2 was tearing down the old offense going no where so they can find a QB and build a new offense for the future.  I really do not understand how people are confused by this and somehow blame McD for the offense these first 2 years.  

 

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!! I really didn't want to take the time to explain the obvious. Coach even said before last season started we weren't going to be as good as the previous season. Just sit back and watch, guys, If there's no improvement on offense this season, let him have it. It's way too early to complain about it. Unless you're a bills fan, I guess.

Edited March 1, 2019 by Dopey

[BringBackFlutie]

I'm just happy to be here.

[Bangarang]

3 hours ago, Dopey said:

Yea, let's fire everyone!!!!

 

Why would you want to do that right now?

[BillyWhiteShows]

18 hours ago, eball said:

From the combine:

 

“I know my background was defense, but I’m not a defensive coach who wants to win 9-7 every week,” he said. “I don’t think that’s a healthy way to become a legitimate contender and sustain success. We want to be able to score 21 points, at least, every game. You’re doing yourself a disservice if you’re not building your roster and your team to give yourself a legitimate chance to score 21 points. We used to set goals like holding a team under 17 (per game). How many teams do that anymore? Maybe one team per year. You have to be able to score points in this league.”

 

This should put to rest any of the comments I've read on this board that McD doesn't "understand" today's NFL or doesn't get it.

 

So much for the MENSA intelligent Mike Schopp

[NoSaint]

18 hours ago, eball said:

From the combine:

 

“I know my background was defense, but I’m not a defensive coach who wants to win 9-7 every week,” he said. “I don’t think that’s a healthy way to become a legitimate contender and sustain success. We want to be able to score 21 points, at least, every game. You’re doing yourself a disservice if you’re not building your roster and your team to give yourself a legitimate chance to score 21 points. We used to set goals like holding a team under 17 (per game). How many teams do that anymore? Maybe one team per year. You have to be able to score points in this league.”

 

This should put to rest any of the comments I've read on this board that McD doesn't "understand" today's NFL or doesn't get it.

 

Unfortunately is it better if he gets that but decided not to do it til year 3? 

[eball]

10 hours ago, MPT said:

 

You may be astonished to know that some pro-McDermott people think his stated philosophy on scoring is fatally flawed as well. 

 

You mean the stated philosophy that "you have to build an offense to score points to win consistently in today's NFL and can't just rely on defense?" 

 

[eball]

14 hours ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Myself and many others did. And besides, even if you give him a pass the first time, he had the knowledge that he was terrible the second time, and refused to see it right in front of his face. I'm very much hoping McD and Beane can find several good players in FA, the draft, and trades, and if they do, this could be a pretty good to very good team. But there is nothing, literally nothing, that would make me bet on it. So far, McD is batting about .113 on offense.

 

Ok, let's all agree the Peterman thing made absolutely no sense.  Thankfully the spell was finally broken.  That said -- it made sense for McD, a coach with a defensive background, to attack the roster from a defensive standpoint first when he arrived.  I think the first two years of his tenure have been a learning process.  He had to learn how to manage an entire team, to run practices and meetings, and then deal with everything on game day.  He hasn't been perfect but he hasn't been awful either.  He picked the wrong guy (Dennison) to run the offense in 2017.  He and Beane botched the QB situation to begin 2018.  I think he has shown a willingness to make the changes needed to start building the offense, however.  He changed OCs after 2017.  This offseason he replaced the WR coach and OL coach -- moves nobody questioned.

 

This offseason really puts McD and Beane in a position they've never experienced before.  They are flush with cash and draft capital so they can truly go after the players they want.  If they miss with their selections in FA and the draft I'll be questioning their long term tenure just as much as anyone.  But I have hope.

[JESSEFEFFER]

1 hour ago, eball said:

 

Ok, let's all agree the Peterman thing made absolutely no sense.  Thankfully the spell was finally broken.  That said -- it made sense for McD, a coach with a defensive background, to attack the roster from a defensive standpoint first when he arrived.  I think the first two years of his tenure have been a learning process.  He had to learn how to manage an entire team, to run practices and meetings, and then deal with everything on game day.  He hasn't been perfect but he hasn't been awful either.  He picked the wrong guy (Dennison) to run the offense in 2017.  He and Beane botched the QB situation to begin 2018.  I think he has shown a willingness to make the changes needed to start building the offense, however.  He changed OCs after 2017.  This offseason he replaced the WR coach and OL coach -- moves nobody questioned.

 

This offseason really puts McD and Beane in a position they've never experienced before.  They are flush with cash and draft capital so they can truly go after the players they want.  If they miss with their selections in FA and the draft I'll be questioning their long term tenure just as much as anyone.  But I have hope.

I think you have that right.  There was a question posed by a WGR poll about which offseason is more important to the Bills future, 2018 or 2019.  Tasker was waffling about it and the reason for that, in my opinion, is  last year's draft was more important, mostly for the draft moves made to get Allen and Edmunds, than this year's but that the sum total of all the offseason moves, draft + FA + long term cap commitments + coaching staff changes(as you mentioned +ST) for this year will be more important to their future.  Last year's dead cap space handicap is converted to bigger risk/reward opportunities for this year. 

 

One of my favorite movie quotes:

 

Andy Dufresne in the letter to Red: Remember Red, hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies.

[oldmanfan]

Beane and McD have the picks they wanted and the cap space they wanted.  They have the young QB they wanted and the young MLB they wanted.  Now it's up to them to get more guys they feel will make them a long term championship contender.  It's on them - they do their jobs right they'll own the town, and if not they'll get canned.  As it should be.  But why assume it will be the latter?

[JESSEFEFFER]

15 hours ago, john wawrow said:

 

But what if that's exactly what he meant?

They get to 21, and that's it. He puts in the second- and third-stringers.

 

Maybe, one day, they score 17. And the next he stops at 24.

What if they get shut out one week, and now he's gotta score 42 just to make the average.

 

I pretty sure it's especially important on this day ... checks calendar ... Feb. 28, that everything said must be taken seriously and without question.

There's no room for inferringness.

 

jw

 

 

 

I can see the post game press conference now.  The Bills just lost by giving up a FG as time expired, 23-21.  Brady had been given the ball with just under 2 minutes to play but the Bills' D couldn't stop Brady from doing Tom Brady things.  Sean McDermott opens by saying "We hit our points quota at the end of the first half when we went up 21-10 and I was convinced that 21 was all we should need to win so we decided not to try anything risky to score additional points."

[eball]

24 minutes ago, JESSEFEFFER said:

I think you have that right.  There was a question posed by a WGR poll about which offseason is more important to the Bills future, 2018 or 2019.  Tasker was waffling about it and the reason for that, in my opinion, is  last year's draft was more important, mostly for the draft moves made to get Allen and Edmunds, than this year's but that the sum total of all the offseason moves, draft + FA + long term cap commitments + coaching staff changes(as you mentioned +ST) for this year will be more important to their future.  Last year's dead cap space handicap is converted to bigger risk/reward opportunities for this year. 

 

One of my favorite movie quotes:

 

Andy Dufresne in the letter to Red: Remember Red, hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies.

 

Thanks; I appreciate this well-reasoned response.  It's also why I don't understand how people can be so critical of the FA moves last offseason when Beane was clearly trying to plug holes in the dam with only a couple of fingers.  The draft last year was crucial and it looks like they did a pretty good job.  Now, it's up to Beane to continue drafting well and also use that pot of cash to get difference makers in FA.

 

Shawshank is on my top 5 list all time.

 

Edited March 1, 2019 by eball

[MPT]

3 hours ago, eball said:

 

You mean the stated philosophy that "you have to build an offense to score points to win consistently in today's NFL and can't just rely on defense?" 

 

 

I mean the one that we're talking about in this thread. Thought that would be understood.

[dubs]

On 2/28/2019 at 6:53 AM, CommonCents said:

One team averaging 21 ppg made the playoffs. The rest were all over 25 ppg. 

 

25 is the right number, it would get you into the top ten in scoring. For atleast the past two seasons 21 is in the bottom 1/3 of the league. 

 

You’re just excited that he knows he needs to score. I get it.

 

He said they want to score at least 21 points every game. He didn’t say he wants to score exactly 21 points every game or average 21 ppg. 

 

If you score at least 21 a game, your average is going to be much higher than 21, getting in the range of the top offenses on a ppg basis. 

 

UPDATE: Glad to see some others understood this too. Was late to the ? 

 

Edited March 1, 2019 by dubs

[eball]

15 minutes ago, MPT said:

 

I mean the one that we're talking about in this thread. Thought that would be understood.

 

Oh, so you mean the philosophy that wasn't actually stated?  The one in which you seem to think McD said the Bills only need to score 21 points per game when he didn't say that at all?  I think you're the one who needs a lesson in reading comprehension.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

17 minutes ago, dubs said:

 

He said they want to score at least 21 points every game. He didn’t say he wants to score exactly 21 points every game or average 21 ppg. 

 

If you score at least 21 a game, your average is going to be much higher than 21, getting in the range of the top offenses on a ppg basis. 

 

UPDATE: Glad to see some others understood this too. Was late to the ? 

 

 

Here was the exact quote:

 

"I think to be a legitimate contender in this league you've got to be able to score, week in or week our, or a threat to score 21 points a game."

[Chuck Wagon]

Feeling in my gut is we go with veteran FAs at C & G to replace the experience of Wood & Richie, then take a young potential franchise LT in the draft and shift Dawkins either to RT or G.  Beane has mention we are team that builds from the front and I think given the success of Foster and their comments on "true #1 wrs" they aren't likely to spend premium money or draft capital on the position.

 

 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

There was no "minimum" 21 points per game about it. 

[dubs]

8 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

 

Here was the exact quote:

 

"I think to be a legitimate contender in this league you've got to be able to score, week in or week our, or a threat to score 21 points a game."

 

That’s not what eball put in the OP. And he also was quoting McDermott. 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

There was no "minimum" 21 points per game about it. 

 

Youre right. McDermott only wants to score 21 points a game. He’s striving for below average. Makes sense too. I mean, the clearest path to career success is to aspire to below average results.  

 

??‍♂️

 

Or....maybe, just maybe, you’re reading into it to confirm something, a bias perhaps?

Edited March 1, 2019 by dubs

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Just now, dubs said:

 

That’s not what eball put in the OP. And he also was quoting McDermott. 

 

 

That's the quote Joe B had in his blog: 

https://www.wkbw.com/sports/bills/joe-b-5-takeaways-from-buffalo-bills-hc-sean-mcdermott-at-the-nfl-combine

 

Anyway you dice it, I think the criticism is fair. 

 

21 points is a low bar, and 21 points ain't going to cut it against Playoff teams. 

 

A threat to score 21 a game is like an NBA team saying they are a threat to score 95 a game. 

 

 

[GreggTX]

Much ado about nothing. Of course he understands this.

[dubs]

4 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

That's the quote Joe B had in his blog: 

https://www.wkbw.com/sports/bills/joe-b-5-takeaways-from-buffalo-bills-hc-sean-mcdermott-at-the-nfl-combine

 

Anyway you dice it, I think the criticism is fair. 

 

21 points is a low bar, and 21 points ain't going to cut it against Playoff teams. 

 

A threat to score 21 a game is like an NBA team saying they are a threat to score 95 a game. 

 

 

 

“McDermott's premise was that for sustained success, they have to be able to put up 21-plus points consistently.”

 

Joe B says it right here. This is the point. Maybe McD said it in a clumsy way, but the point is they need to score a lot more. I think it’s very obvious what he means. 

[oldmanfan]

13 minutes ago, dubs said:

 

“McDermott's premise was that for sustained success, they have to be able to put up 21-plus points consistently.”

 

Joe B says it right here. This is the point. Maybe McD said it in a clumsy way, but the point is they need to score a lot more. I think it’s very obvious what he means. 

The person you are responding to has a history of slanting every single thing ever written or said about the team in a negative direction.  Ignores anything that does not fit his negative agenda and hysterically inflates anything he or she can to try and make the team look bad.  Really a sad thing.

[MPT]

33 minutes ago, eball said:

 

Oh, so you mean the philosophy that wasn't actually stated?  The one in which you seem to think McD said the Bills only need to score 21 points per game when he didn't say that at all?  I think you're the one who needs a lesson in reading comprehension.

 

I never said that either. In fact, I explicitly took that into account in all of my posts because I know some people have a hard time understanding simple arguments. Take your own advice and learn to read before you reply. Maybe try formulating some points of your own instead of just attacking what people didn't say.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

9 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

The person you are responding to has a history of slanting every single thing ever written or said about the team in a negative direction.  Ignores anything that does not fit his negative agenda and hysterically inflates anything he or she can to try and make the team look bad.  Really a sad thing.

When your franchise doesn't have a Playoff win since 1995 there is next to nothing positive to push. 

 

What is sad are the fans that continue to lower the bar. 

 

I want the Bills to win too. But how many "free passes" does this organization get before some results are expected? I don't want to hear 6-10, but that they were "competitive" or that the team is "young". 

 

Luckily for all of us, there are no excuses this year. 

[dubs]

11 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

When your franchise doesn't have a Playoff win since 1995 there is next to nothing positive to push. 

 

What is sad are the fans that continue to lower the bar. 

 

I want the Bills to win too. But how many "free passes" does this organization get before some results are expected? I don't want to hear 6-10, but that they were "competitive" or that the team is "young". 

 

Luckily for all of us, there are no excuses this year. 

 

Just to set some standards for consistency sake, a few questions:

 

1) how many years grace period does a team have from their last “playoff win”?

2) is playoff win the best indicator of success or failure in your view, or are there other, better metrics?

3) Do current owners/front offices/coaching/players own the history of the team before they arrived?

 

[oldmanfan]

11 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

When your franchise doesn't have a Playoff win since 1995 there is next to nothing positive to push. 

 

What is sad are the fans that continue to lower the bar. 

 

I want the Bills to win too. But how many "free passes" does this organization get before some results are expected? I don't want to hear 6-10, but that they were "competitive" or that the team is "young". 

 

Luckily for all of us, there are no excuses this year. 

You are the one who misquoted Joe B, and when shown that you ignore it because it doesn't fit your negative agenda.  And I am so tired of your crap about people lowering the bar.  It's crap, pure unadulterated crap.  What did I say just this morning?  That Beane and McD have the picks they want, the cap space they want, the QB and MLB they wanted, and now it is up to them.  And if they don't succeed they'll be looking for jobs, AS IT SHOULD BE.  I capitalize not to yell but provide emphasis, because you yet again apparently show a predilection to ignoring those things that don't fit your agenda.  Two year ago they were in the playoffs, last year they got tools they felt they needed and dumped guys for cap space.  That was their plan, they executed it, and now the pressure is on to continue executing their plan.  That is not a free pass, that is not lowering the bar.  That is how it is, not only with the Bills but pretty much any other professional sports enterprise you care to name.

 

Your stuff is nonsense.  All here know these guys have to succeed or they won't have jobs down the line.  And I suspect no one knows that more than Beane and McDermott.

[vorpma]

20 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

If you think the offense the first 2 years is the offense he "built" then I don't know what to tell you dude.  He clearly didnt build year one, and year 2 was it torn down so it can be built back up.  Honestly do not know how this is confusing to you.

 

Lets say you are a contractor who buys a house to live in while he remodels it for a flip.  When do you analyze the quality of that contractors overall work?

• When he first closes escrow and moves his stuff into the house?
• During the process of the remodel where he has torn most the things out?
• When the house is actually complete and ready to be sold or lived in?

You are obsessed with stages 1 and 2 with no patience to see stage 3.  Got news for you, stages 1 and 2 are always necessary on a remodel just like they are on a rebuild.  Sometimes a coach can enter the picture with part of the rebuild started.  Like when McVay took over the Rams and it had talent on D, its franchise QB already on the roster, and an elite RB to help his offense.  Thats like taking over a house that already had the heavy lifting done and now you just gotta come in and add the amenities.  Much quicker flip, much quicker team rebuild.  

 

McD didnt have that luxury.  And what he and Beane have done in 2 combined seasons is pretty encouraging.  Year 3 (or year 2 for Beane) is now about doing the finishing work to really make the place shine.  And if they don't do a good job, they will be on the hot seat.  But their body of work is not what they did to get here, its what they do NOW that we are ready for this stage.  

Great post; some adult input!

Just now, oldmanfan said:

You are the one who misquoted Joe B, and when shown that you ignore it because it doesn't fit your negative agenda.  And I am so tired of your crap about people lowering the bar.  It's crap, pure unadulterated crap.  What did I say just this morning?  That Beane and McD have the picks they want, the cap space they want, the QB and MLB they wanted, and now it is up to them.  And if they don't succeed they'll be looking for jobs, AS IT SHOULD BE.  I capitalize not to yell but provide emphasis, because you yet again apparently show a predilection to ignoring those things that don't fit your agenda.  Two year ago they were in the playoffs, last year they got tools they felt they needed and dumped guys for cap space.  That was their plan, they executed it, and now the pressure is on to continue executing their plan.  That is not a free pass, that is not lowering the bar.  That is how it is, not only with the Bills but pretty much any other professional sports enterprise you care to name.

 

Your stuff is nonsense.  All here know these guys have to succeed or they won't have jobs down the line.  And I suspect no one knows that more than Beane and McDermott.

Oldmanfan comes through again; great post!

15 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

"You have to score points to win in this league".  But you insist on taking anything said by this organization and spin it into a negative. 

 

Hyperbolic lunacy.

I swear many who post on TBD really know little about football, it is a passing fancy much like following trending entertainment. Then there is the "temper tantrum" approach - I want it and I want it now, give it to me, and if I don't get I throw a temper tantrum. Fire everyone now! 

[MPT]

32 minutes ago, vorpma said:

Great post; some adult input!

Oldmanfan comes through again; great post!

I swear many who post on TBD really know little about football, it is a passing fancy much like following trending entertainment. Then there is the "temper tantrum" approach - I want it and I want it now, give it to me, and if I don't get I throw a temper tantrum. Fire everyone now! 

 

Show me one post where someone demanded a firing please.

[vorpma]

46 minutes ago, MPT said:

 

Show me one post where someone demanded a firing please.

Can't even respond, I have watched it posted on TBD quite often over the last year by many providing the negative posts on this topic. As one post stated, many members of TBD will never be happy with anything this organization does!