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Would the Patriots still have been this dominant in a different division?

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1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

Baltimore? How you figure?

 

Scott I may be wrong, but I believe Baltimore has beat them once over the the past few years.

 

...and I don't think Baltimore is very good, other than their SB run...I just don't.

 

however, I do get that that could be me.

 

The 4.5 wins per year is because Baltimore would sneak in with a win every once in awhile.

 

Either way I honestly believe the Patriots are just as successful.  I think it is Pittsburgh, and not NE, that gets hurt by this alignment.

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8 minutes ago, dollars 2 donuts said:

 

Scott I may be wrong, but I believe Baltimore has beat them once over the the past few years.

 

...and I don't think Baltimore is very good, other than their SB run...I just don't.

 

however, I do get that that could be me.

 

The 4.5 wins per year is because Baltimore would sneak in with a win every once in awhile.

 

Either way I honestly believe the Patriots are just as successful.  I think it is Pittsburgh, and not NE, that gets hurt by this alignment.

Exactly. The Steelers for whatever reason have almost never been able to solve the Pats rubik's cube, and that combined with the Ravens playing them tough not infrequently, would've made life a lot more difficult for Tomlin & Co coming out of there, imho. 

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The pats own every team in the afc for the last 19 years! IMO it doesn’t matter if they play on the road or at home Belichick is that damn good.

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2 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Obviously it depends what division you'd put them in.

 

But they absolutely dominate Buffalo. The guy is 30-3 against them. Outside of the Browns, I can't imagine them having more success against any other team. 

 

Maybe, but Brady in the Regular season is 6-1 versus Baltimore, Cincinnati, and Cleveland over the years. At that rate against those three teams they would be 29 - 4 against each of them rather than 30 - 3.  Pittsburgh with their 8-2 regular season mark would be 26 - 7 or 27 - 6 over the same time period.

 

In reality based upon regular season numbers in a division with Baltimore, Cincinnati, and Pittsburgh - NE would actually see their win totals increase by getting away from Miami - meaning they might actually have been better in this scenario.

 

The reality is - who knows what would have happened, but to assume all of a sudden the Pats would not be the same is a real stretch as they dominate the AFC north just as much as the AFC east.

 

They have similar regular season dominance over the AFC south and most of the AFC west.  It seems only Denver really has their number - especially in the playoffs.  

 

 

 

 

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There’s a possibility that in another division the Pats might’ve come across more trouble.  But there’s  also a much higher possibility that every other team in NFL would’ve suffered the same fate as Bills, Jets, and Dolphins the last 17 years.  You think Goff would’ve ever developed if he had to get exposed twice a year by Belichik.  Belichik is merciless especially against AFC East opponents.  He steals their soul and collects AFC East titles while they spin their wheels.  

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Well.  The chances of making the Super Bowl increase dramatically when you win your division and get a bye in the playoffs.

It's not just about beating bad teams 5-6 times per year.  It's about the other franchises in the AFC East being virtually incapable of winning 10+ games, and actually competing for the division title.

 

Since Tom Brady came around, neither the Bills, Jets or Dolphins have managed to land a Top 15 franchise QB (not counting Sam Darnold and Josh Allen yet).

The closest we have come was Drew Bledsoe, who played good for half a season and regressed.  The closest the Jets came was getting Brett Favre during his last pathetic pre-retirement year.  The closest the Dolphins came was Chad Pennington.

 

Now, name one other division (AFC or NFC) where only ONE team has managed to land a franchise QB for 15-20 years.

 

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1 hour ago, BuffaloRebound said:

There’s a possibility that in another division the Pats might’ve come across more trouble.  But there’s  also a much higher possibility that every other team in NFL would’ve suffered the same fate as Bills, Jets, and Dolphins the last 17 years.  You think Goff would’ve ever developed if he had to get exposed twice a year by Belichik.  Belichik is merciless especially against AFC East opponents.  He steals their soul and collects AFC East titles while they spin their wheels.  

 

no question the Pats would have faced more challenges each season away from the 3 AFCE Stooges

 

but great teams under control play to just enough of a level to win the game, sometimes it backfires, the Pats shrugged and lost to a few mediocre teams in 2018 because they didn't care enough to make the 4th quarter push. 

3 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

They've dominated the league, so by definition they'd dominate a division.

 

i'll rest on this answer in full agreement

 

you only have to win the game you are playing

 

and sometimes you don't have to look that great doing it

 

the question is what the heck are teams going to do starting in 2019 to knock them off the duck boats?

 

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23 hours ago, Buffalo03 said:

So you don't think 6 games a year against the Steelers, Ravens and Bengals would have made any difference? Those have been much better teams than the Jets, Bills and Dolphins. I don't think 9 Super Bowl apparences is possible in that division

No, because the constant winning by the Pats in that division would have led to the same cycle of quick firings among all those organizations that has occurred in the AFC East. 

1 hour ago, BuffaloRebound said:

There’s a possibility that in another division the Pats might’ve come across more trouble.  But there’s  also a much higher possibility that every other team in NFL would’ve suffered the same fate as Bills, Jets, and Dolphins the last 17 years.  You think Goff would’ve ever developed if he had to get exposed twice a year by Belichik.  Belichik is merciless especially against AFC East opponents.  He steals their soul and collects AFC East titles while they spin their wheels.  

Also, I strongly believe that if Belichick is in your division, your longevity as a GM or head coach is dramatically shortened. Just look at the Bills, Dolphins, and Jets.

Edited by dave mcbride
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1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

No, because the constant winning by the Pats in that division would have led to the same cycle of quick firings among all those organizations that has occurred in the AFC East. 

Also, I strongly believe that if Belichick is in your division, your longevity as a GM or head coach is dramatically shortened. Just look at the Bills, Dolphins, and Jets.

The Bills, Dolphins and Jets have sucked as franchises over the last 20 years. That's why they have been through a lot of coaches and GMs. Not Belichick

Edited by Buffalo03

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1 minute ago, Buffalo03 said:

The Bills, Dolphins and Jets have sucked as franchises over the last 20 years. That's why they have been through a lot of coaches. Not Belichick

Between 2000 and 2010, the Jets had 8 winning seasons and 6 playoff appearances.

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12 minutes ago, Buffalo03 said:

The Bills, Dolphins and Jets have sucked as franchises over the last 20 years. That's why they have been through a lot of coaches and GMs. Not Belichick

 

I believe Jets are only team to win a playoff game at foxboro over Belichik/Brady.  

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3 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

 

I believe Jets are only team to win a playoff game at foxboro over Belichik/Brady.  

I think the ravens beat them in foxboro in 09.

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37 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I think the ravens beat them in foxboro in 09.

 

was that the early avalanche on the Pats where it like 21-0 before all the fans had filed into the stadium?

 

 

 

the worst performance by the Pats in the playoffs

 

the loss to the Broncos was another one, with Brady chasing after Lynch 20 yards after a play

 

 

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No.  Playing against the AFC East equals more wins.  More wins equals byes and home field advantage.  The Patriots would have been very good regardless of what division they were in but playing in the East made them a dynasty.   

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47 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Between 2000 and 2010, the Jets had 8 winning seasons and 6 playoff appearances.

Were they really that great of a team? I don't think so. Chad Pennington and Mark Sanchez as QBs. Two fluke years under Rex Ryan. What have they done since 2011? Nothing and the Bills and Dolphins have sucked the whole time

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3 hours ago, Buffalo03 said:

The Bills, Dolphins and Jets have sucked as franchises over the last 20 years. That's why they have been through a lot of coaches and GMs. Not Belichick

 

 

I just wonder how much they would have sucked if taking your though experiment and moving NE and Cleveland.  In that scenario with just giving the Bills 1 win against Cleveland instead of the 2 loses to NE there is a chance the Bills make the playoffs 6 times in the last 15 years and have 3 division titles (3 WC would come down to tiebreakers so it is close). The Jets would win the division 6 times and the Dolphins 4 times.  Cleveland and Buffalo would have 1 season with a tiebreaker.  

 

You don’t think that 5 additional playoff appearances and the potential of some back to back years would not have changed significantly the culture and the number of coaching changes for each of these teams.

 

Additionally Just quickly looking at the impact to just Pittsburgh - assuming the 1 additional loss having NE instead of Cleveland and using NE record - Pittsburgh goes from 8 division titles and 2 WCs to just 5 potential WC spots over the 15 years - so does missing the playoffs potentially 5 years in a row in the late 2000 get Tomlin fired?  It has a huge impact because no longer is Pittsburgh considered a yearly division winner - they are now the NYJs getting in on a few random years as a wild card.

 

The implications for Baltimore and Cincinnati are even worse moving them out of the playoffs several times where they just snuck in.

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3 hours ago, Buffalo03 said:

Were they really that great of a team? I don't think so. Chad Pennington and Mark Sanchez as QBs. Two fluke years under Rex Ryan. What have they done since 2011? Nothing and the Bills and Dolphins have sucked the whole time

They weren't fluke years under Rex.

 

Rex actually gave a ***** at that point and their defenses were no joke. Sanchez was actually playing somewhat decent at the time. 

 

And Pennington was a good QB before all the shoulder injuries.

 

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1 minute ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

 

I just wonder how much they would have sucked if taking your though experiment and moving NE and Cleveland.  In that scenario with just giving the Bills 1 win against Cleveland instead of the 2 loses to NE there is a chance the Bills make the playoffs 6 times in the last 15 years and have 3 division titles (3 WC would come down to tiebreakers so it is close). The Jets would win the division 6 times and the Dolphins 4 times.  Cleveland and Buffalo would have 1 season with a tiebreaker.  

 

You don’t think that 5 additional playoff appearances and the potential of some back to back years would not have changed significantly the culture and the number of coaching changes for each of these teams.

 

Additionally Just quickly looking at the impact to just Pittsburgh - assuming the 1 additional loss having NE instead of Cleveland and using NE record - Pittsburgh goes from 8 division titles and 2 WCs to just 5 potential WC spots over the 15 years - so does missing the playoffs potentially 5 years in a row in the late 2000 get Tomlin fired?  It has a huge impact because no longer is Pittsburgh considered a yearly division winner - they are now the NYJs getting in on a few random years as a wild card.

 

The implications for Baltimore and Cincinnati are even worse moving them out of the playoffs several times where they just snuck in.

 

 

One last thing to as food for thought - if we switched NE and Cleveland and gave the AFC east just one additional victory from Cleveland versus the 2 loses against NE -  The Bills in the last 15 years would have more playoff appearances and more division titles than the Steelers.  

 

The entire AFC east would seem better overall.

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21 hours ago, Real McCoy said:

Pop the Pats in a another division and whatever division that is has a FO and HC clown show like the AFCE has witnessed the last 19 years. BB is a straight up coach and FO killer.

 

Since 2000

Dolphins - 10 HC

Bills - 9 HC

Jets - 5 HC

 

Just sickening.

 

 

 

...put 'em in their OWN division...call it the AFNE....save money and have six trophies engraved at a time.............

Edited by OldTimeAFLGuy

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30 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

 

I just wonder how much they would have sucked if taking your though experiment and moving NE and Cleveland.  In that scenario with just giving the Bills 1 win against Cleveland instead of the 2 loses to NE there is a chance the Bills make the playoffs 6 times in the last 15 years and have 3 division titles (3 WC would come down to tiebreakers so it is close). The Jets would win the division 6 times and the Dolphins 4 times.  Cleveland and Buffalo would have 1 season with a tiebreaker.  

 

You don’t think that 5 additional playoff appearances and the potential of some back to back years would not have changed significantly the culture and the number of coaching changes for each of these teams.

 

Additionally Just quickly looking at the impact to just Pittsburgh - assuming the 1 additional loss having NE instead of Cleveland and using NE record - Pittsburgh goes from 8 division titles and 2 WCs to just 5 potential WC spots over the 15 years - so does missing the playoffs potentially 5 years in a row in the late 2000 get Tomlin fired?  It has a huge impact because no longer is Pittsburgh considered a yearly division winner - they are now the NYJs getting in on a few random years as a wild card.

 

The implications for Baltimore and Cincinnati are even worse moving them out of the playoffs several times where they just snuck in.

 

The Bills can’t line up consistently for any given snap, they cant catch a ball right in their hands, they can’t trust a QB with a whole series on O without looking to the sidelines for each play, that is not winning 11 games in a season 

 

 

It has been very unlucky to have the Griese Fish and Brady Pats in the division to cakewalk over the Bills the entire 70s and 2001 to 2018 and counting 

 

Boo hoo hoo

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3 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

The Bills can’t line up consistently for any given snap, they cant catch a ball right in their hands, they can’t trust a QB with a whole series on O without looking to the sidelines for each play, that is not winning 11 games in a season 

 

...Pats have won the last 10 AFCE titles and 15 out of the last 17.....other than Jets & Fins.....Bflo is NOT alone in divisional mediocrity, astonishing as it is......

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7 hours ago, mjt328 said:

It's about the other franchises in the AFC East being virtually incapable of winning 10+ games, and actually competing for the division title.

 

 

I'm not going to sit here and argue that the Bills Jets and Dolphins were good competition for the Patriots - those three teams haven't put many competitive teams on the field.   

 

But you have to understand that what you just said sounds great, but it isn't.  When you have the Pats in you division, it means you effectively start the season 0-2, because almost ANY TEAM in the league will go 0-2 against the Pats if they have to play them twice.  I don't think any of the three has beaten the Pats twice in a season, and all three usually get swept.   Since you start 0-2, it means to get 10 wins you have to go 10-4 against the rest of the league, and that's really hard to do.   So it isn't surprising that the AFCE hasn't had many teams other than the Pats winning 10 games.   

 

It's true, as someone said, that the Bills Dolphins and Jets haven't acquired good QBs for a decade.   But it's also true they haven't had good continuity in the front office and the HC position.  Why?   A lot of reasons, but one of them is that it's hard to win 10 games if you're in the Pats' division, and if you can't win 10 games, you don't keep your GM or HC job very long.   It's very much a chicken or the egg thing.   Only one McVay has come along in the last 10 years, and he happened not to take a job in the AFCE.   Almost every other new coach in the league over the last 10 years wouldn't have done any better playing the Pats twice a season.  

 

The Pats beat EVERYBODY, and it's a huge disadvantage to play them twice a year. 

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How would the Bills do without those four games against divisions Twinkies Jets and Fish?

 

whst if they had to face REAL opponents for 2 or 3 of these games 

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2 hours ago, row_33 said:

How would the Bills do without those four games against divisions Twinkies Jets and Fish?

 

whst if they had to face REAL opponents for 2 or 3 of these games 

I don't know why it is that everyone misperceives the AFC East.   The Jets and Dolphins were .500 teams against the rest of the league over the past 15 seasons, putting aside their games against the Pats.  All three teams have been regularly in the middle of the pack in the league.   So the Bills didn't fatten their record against the Jets and phins.   

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