Medicare... It's not "Free"

[Nanker]

We keep hearing about giving everyone Medicare. Well guess what folks, it ain't "free", and they only have individual plans - i.e., NO FAMILY plans.

 

https://www.medicare.gov/your-medicare-costs/part-a-costs

 

Most retirees don't pay Medicare Part A premiums because they worked more than 30 quarters and paid into the system.

 

Pretty much ANY person who hasn't paid in for that amount of time has to pay Medicare Part A premiums as outlined below.

Also, there are no "family" plans in Medicare. So ever person would have to have their own account and pay their monthly premiums.

That would be really something for a family of six.

Part A covers: 

• Inpatient care in a hospital
• Skilled nursing facility care
• Inpatient care in a skilled nursing facility (not custodial or long-term care)
• Hospice care
• Home health care

 

Part A premiums

If you buy Part A, you'll pay up to $422 each month in 2018 ($437 in 2019). If you paid Medicare taxes for less than 30 quarters, the standard Part A premium is $422 ($437 in 2019). If you paid Medicare taxes for 30-39 quarters, the standard Part A premium is $237 ($240 in 2019).

In most cases, if you choose to buy Part A, you must also:

Have Medicare Part B (Medical Insurance)

Pay monthly premiums for both Part A and Part B

 

Part A At a Glance:

 

Part A premium

Most people don't pay a monthly premium for Part A (sometimes called "premium-free Part A"). If you buy Part A, you'll pay up to $422 each month. If you paid Medicare taxes for less than 30 quarters, the standard Part A premium is $422. If you paid Medicare taxes for 30-39 quarters, the standard Part A premium is $232.

Part A hospital inpatient deductible and coinsurance

You pay: $1,340 deductible for each benefit period Days 1-60: $0 coinsurance for each benefit period Days 61-90: $335 coinsurance per day of each benefit period Days 91 and beyond: $670 coinsurance per each "lifetime reserve day" after day 90 for each benefit period (up to 60 days over your lifetime) Beyond lifetime reserve days: all costs

 

Now Part B!

It's not "FREE" either folks. 

 

What Part B Covers:

• Medically necessary services: Services or supplies that are needed to diagnose or treat your medical condition and that meet accepted standards of medical practice.
• Preventive services: Health care to prevent illness (like the flu) or detect it at an early stage, when treatment is most likely to work best.

You pay nothing for most preventive services if you get the services from a health care provider who accepts assignment.  

Part B covers things like:

• Clinical research  
• Ambulance services
• Durable medical equipment (DME)
• Mental health
  • Inpatient
  • Outpatient
  • Partial hospitalization
• Getting a second opinion before surgery
• Limited outpatient prescription drugs

 

What your Medicare Part B costs - it's income adjusted folks... (Medicare calls it Income Related Monthly Adjustment Amount - IRMAA)

If your yearly income in 2016 (for what you pay in 2018) was			You pay each month (in 2018)
File individual tax return	File joint tax return	File married & separate tax return
$85,000 or less	$170,000 or less	$85,000 or less	$134
above $85,000 up to $107,000	above $170,000 up to $214,000	Not applicable	$187.50
above $107,000 up to $133,500	above $214,000 up to $267,000	Not applicable	$267.90
above $133,500 up to $160,000	above $267,000 up to $320,000	Not applicable	$348.30
above $160,000	above $320,000	above $85,000	$428.60

 

Part B Deductibles:

Part B deductible and coinsurance

$183 per year. After your deductible is met, you typically pay 20% of the  Medicare-approved amount  for most doctor services (including most doctor services while you're a hospital inpatient), outpatient therapy, and  durable medical equipment (dme)

 

 

Part D is optional for additional drug coverage.

Follow the link to see what Medicare Part D can cost YOU!

 

If your filing status and yearly income in 2016 was
File individual tax return	File joint tax return	File married & separate tax return	You pay each month (in 2018)
$85,000 or less	$170,000 or less	$85,000 or less	your plan premium
above $85,000 up to $107,000	above $170,000 up to $214,000	not applicable	$13.00 + your plan premium
above $107,000 up to $133,500	above $214,000 up to $267,000	not applicable	$33.60 + your plan premium
above $133,500 up to $160,000	above $267,000 up to $320,000	not applicable	$54.20 + your plan premium
above $160,000	above $320,000	above $85,000	$74.80 + your plan premium

 

 

 

So each person wanting Medicare would have to pay:

Part A $422 per month

Part B $134 per month - up to $428.60 per month based on household earnings

Part D $ 70 per month (roughly) based on what plan you get and again - how much you earn because like Medicare Part B it has IRMAAs. 

 

But wait! There's MORE!

Medicare doesn't cover everything. So most people buy Medicare Supplemental insurance for Parts A and B.

There are lots of those plans and based on where you live they cost around $175 per month.

 

So if you want Medicare for all - these are approximately what it'll cost each and every person:

From $796 per month up to $1,165.40 

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Well done. I made a killing selling medicare supplements with this kind of presentation.

 

My assumption would be most people would end up taking Med Advantage, which in actuality is no better than most private health plans anyway.

 

[Cinga]

so all those taxes we paid into Medicare all these years means nothing huh? figures......

[keepthefaith]

11 hours ago, Nanker said:

We keep hearing about giving everyone Medicare. Well guess what folks, it ain't "free", and they only have individual plans - i.e., NO FAMILY plans.

 

https://www.medicare.gov/your-medicare-costs/part-a-costs

 

Most retirees don't pay Medicare Part A premiums because they worked more than 30 quarters and paid into the system.

 

Pretty much ANY person who hasn't paid in for that amount of time has to pay Medicare Part A premiums as outlined below.

Also, there are no "family" plans in Medicare. So ever person would have to have their own account and pay their monthly premiums.

That would be really something for a family of six.

Part A covers: 

• Inpatient care in a hospital
• Skilled nursing facility care
• Inpatient care in a skilled nursing facility (not custodial or long-term care)
• Hospice care
• Home health care

 

Part A premiums

If you buy Part A, you'll pay up to $422 each month in 2018 ($437 in 2019). If you paid Medicare taxes for less than 30 quarters, the standard Part A premium is $422 ($437 in 2019). If you paid Medicare taxes for 30-39 quarters, the standard Part A premium is $237 ($240 in 2019).

In most cases, if you choose to buy Part A, you must also:

Have Medicare Part B (Medical Insurance)

Pay monthly premiums for both Part A and Part B

 

Part A At a Glance:

 

Part A premium

Most people don't pay a monthly premium for Part A (sometimes called "premium-free Part A"). If you buy Part A, you'll pay up to $422 each month. If you paid Medicare taxes for less than 30 quarters, the standard Part A premium is $422. If you paid Medicare taxes for 30-39 quarters, the standard Part A premium is $232.

Part A hospital inpatient deductible and coinsurance

You pay: $1,340 deductible for each benefit period Days 1-60: $0 coinsurance for each benefit period Days 61-90: $335 coinsurance per day of each benefit period Days 91 and beyond: $670 coinsurance per each "lifetime reserve day" after day 90 for each benefit period (up to 60 days over your lifetime) Beyond lifetime reserve days: all costs

 

Now Part B!

It's not "FREE" either folks. 

 

What Part B Covers:

• Medically necessary services: Services or supplies that are needed to diagnose or treat your medical condition and that meet accepted standards of medical practice.
• Preventive services: Health care to prevent illness (like the flu) or detect it at an early stage, when treatment is most likely to work best.

You pay nothing for most preventive services if you get the services from a health care provider who accepts assignment.  

Part B covers things like:

• Clinical research  
• Ambulance services
• Durable medical equipment (DME)
• Mental health
  • Inpatient
  • Outpatient
  • Partial hospitalization
• Getting a second opinion before surgery
• Limited outpatient prescription drugs

 

What your Medicare Part B costs - it's income adjusted folks... (Medicare calls it Income Related Monthly Adjustment Amount - IRMAA)

If your yearly income in 2016 (for what you pay in 2018) was			You pay each month (in 2018)
File individual tax return	File joint tax return	File married & separate tax return
$85,000 or less	$170,000 or less	$85,000 or less	$134
above $85,000 up to $107,000	above $170,000 up to $214,000	Not applicable	$187.50
above $107,000 up to $133,500	above $214,000 up to $267,000	Not applicable	$267.90
above $133,500 up to $160,000	above $267,000 up to $320,000	Not applicable	$348.30
above $160,000	above $320,000	above $85,000	$428.60

 

Part B Deductibles:

Part B deductible and coinsurance

$183 per year. After your deductible is met, you typically pay 20% of the  Medicare-approved amount  for most doctor services (including most doctor services while you're a hospital inpatient), outpatient therapy, and  durable medical equipment (dme)

 

 

Part D is optional for additional drug coverage.

Follow the link to see what Medicare Part D can cost YOU!

 

If your filing status and yearly income in 2016 was
File individual tax return	File joint tax return	File married & separate tax return	You pay each month (in 2018)
$85,000 or less	$170,000 or less	$85,000 or less	your plan premium
above $85,000 up to $107,000	above $170,000 up to $214,000	not applicable	$13.00 + your plan premium
above $107,000 up to $133,500	above $214,000 up to $267,000	not applicable	$33.60 + your plan premium
above $133,500 up to $160,000	above $267,000 up to $320,000	not applicable	$54.20 + your plan premium
above $160,000	above $320,000	above $85,000	$74.80 + your plan premium

 

 

 

So each person wanting Medicare would have to pay:

Part A $422 per month

Part B $134 per month - up to $428.60 per month based on household earnings

Part D $ 70 per month (roughly) based on what plan you get and again - how much you earn because like Medicare Part B it has IRMAAs. 

 

But wait! There's MORE!

Medicare doesn't cover everything. So most people buy Medicare Supplemental insurance for Parts A and B.

There are lots of those plans and based on where you live they cost around $175 per month.

 

So if you want Medicare for all - these are approximately what it'll cost each and every person:

From $796 per month up to $1,165.40 

 

 

Heckuva good post.

 

As for paying for it for all, rich people and evil rich corporations will pay for much of it.  The rest will simply be funded with a larger deficit.  Problem solved.

[unbillievable]

Those costs are for people that worked less than 10 years by the time they are 65 years old?

[TakeYouToTasker]

This is one of the best posts I've ever read on this website, or anywhere really.

 

@Nanker

[/dev/null]

 

[The_Dude]

As a small business owner I’ll tell ya the hardest part about what I do, other than the payroll taxes every month, is finding affordable insurance. It’s the bane of my existance. 

[Nanker]

11 hours ago, unbillievable said:

Those costs are for people that worked less than 10 years by the time they are 65 years old?

No. Those costs are for EVERYONE. 

If you worked for 30 quarters, i.e., 7.5 years and paid into Medicare through your payroll taxes, when you reach retirement age (that's a moving goalpost), you are not charged a Medicare Part A premium. If you haven't worked that long - you have to pay the Medicare Part A premiums. There are some exceptions, e.g., if you're on kidney dialysis, or deemed disabled, the premiums are waived. 

 

However, EVERYONE (as far as I know) is charged Medicare Part B and Part D premiums, and the amount of those premiums are tiered according to your earnings. 

 

ON TOP of that is your Supplemental insurances - for Medicare Part B and Part D. 

 

Again, Medicare is not "free" by a long shot.

[PearlHowardman]

Ha!  It's not like they were first NOR last to the table.

 

[Thurmal34]

Thankfully there are enough random billions to throw at soybean farmers affected by their sudden inability to sell their product to the highest bidder. 

 

Keep telling us how backward socialism is.

 

How many won’t get the fact that the reason our farmers cNt compete globally is the local idiot?0

Edited December 31, 2018 by Thurmal34

[row_33]

4 hours ago, Thurmal34 said:

Thankfully there are enough random billions to throw at soybean farmers affected by their sudden inability to sell their product to the highest bidder. 

 

Keep telling us how backward socialism is.

 

How many won’t get the fact that the reason our farmers cNt compete globally is the local idiot?0

 

You should be pushing for a single payer system 

 

with people opting to buy into private plans if they wish, and allocation of private clinics to public care where optimal 

[Thurmal34]

28 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

You should be pushing for a single payer system 

 

with people opting to buy into private plans if they wish, and allocation of private clinics to public care where optimal 

 

To me it seems like I should be advocating for people to not die.

 

just feels like the right thing to do.

 

 

[3rdnlng]

5 hours ago, Thurmal34 said:

Thankfully there are enough random billions to throw at soybean farmers affected by their sudden inability to sell their product to the highest bidder. 

 

Keep telling us how backward socialism is.

 

How many won’t get the fact that the reason our farmers cNt compete globally is the local idiot?0

Drunk and feeble minded with no ability to discern anything more complicated than the next shot and a beer.

[Tiberius]

How much more expensive is it than what we have to pay now for health insurance? 

[3rdnlng]

9 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

How much more expensive is it than what we have to pay now for health insurance? 

Here's a link for you:

 

 

[billsfan89]

The USA spends 17.8% of its GDP on healthcare, the next closest developed nation spends Switzerland spends 12.4% most developed nations with a form of single payer healthcare spend about 10-11% of GDP on healthcare. Healthcare is not a commodity, you aren't always in a position to shop around for it and it isn't an elastic commodity. I would rather employers pay a payroll tax (In place of what they pay for medical insurance now) so that everyone has a basic medicare plan than to have an insanely complicated system that is inefficient (Imagine calling the police and needing private police insurance and calling the right police in your police network to avoid ending up with a 10k bill) and just costs more money without providing better outcomes. 

 

I know there is an orthodoxy for a lot of people here that the government sucks and private industry is better at everything but yet anytime I travel to other nations in the developed world they seem to like their healthcare system and outright fear and laugh at the cost and complexity of the US healthcare system. I also think our privatized healthcare system is bad for someone wanting to start their own business. Small businesses and start ups have to put their own and their families health on the line just to be able to get off the ground. That's a horrible and perverse incentive. Our healthcare system also makes it almost impossible for you to freelance or go into business for yourself and maintain good coverage. 

6 hours ago, Tiberius said:

How much more expensive is it than what we have to pay now for health insurance? 

 

You see the government sucks at everything. Just ignore real world evidence that single payer systems produce similar or better outcomes for less money. 

[TakeYouToTasker]

13 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

The USA spends 17.8% of its GDP on healthcare, the next closest developed nation spends Switzerland spends 12.4% most developed nations with a form of single payer healthcare spend about 10-11% of GDP on healthcare. Healthcare is not a commodity, you aren't always in a position to shop around for it and it isn't an elastic commodity. I would rather employers pay a payroll tax (In place of what they pay for medical insurance now) so that everyone has a basic medicare plan than to have an insanely complicated system that is inefficient (Imagine calling the police and needing private police insurance and calling the right police in your police network to avoid ending up with a 10k bill) and just costs more money without providing better outcomes. 

 

I know there is an orthodoxy for a lot of people here that the government sucks and private industry is better at everything but yet anytime I travel to other nations in the developed world they seem to like their healthcare system and outright fear and laugh at the cost and complexity of the US healthcare system. I also think our privatized healthcare system is bad for someone wanting to start their own business. Small businesses and start ups have to put their own and their families health on the line just to be able to get off the ground. That's a horrible and perverse incentive. Our healthcare system also makes it almost impossible for you to freelance or go into business for yourself and maintain good coverage. 

 

You see the government sucks at everything. Just ignore real world evidence that single payer systems produce similar or better outcomes for less money. 

 

No, none of this is accurate no matter how much you wish it to be.

 

Healthcare is a commodity.  It is individually applied, has no shared utility, and is finite.  Your wishcasting and handwavium does not change this.

 

Other nations reported health care costs are also not an accurate accounting of their actual expenses.  Other nations have massive health care black markets which are not reported in the official statistics for political reasons.

 

Other nations also manipulate their outcome reporting with legal refusal of care for sectors of the their populations which generate the worst outcomes.  For example:  In England smokers and the obese are denied orthopedic surgeries by law.  Their outcomes and our outcomes are not an apples to oranges comparison.

 

These same other nations have health care provider shortages, and many of their systems are on the verge of collapse; yet here you sit spouting off about unicorns. 

 

 

[billsfan89]

11 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

 

No, none of this is accurate no matter how much you wish it to be.

 

Healthcare is a commodity.  It is individually applied, has no shared utility, and is finite.  Your wishcasting and handwavium does not change this.

 

Other nations reported health care costs are also not an accurate accounting of their actual expenses.  Other nations have massive health care black markets which are not reported in the official statistics for political reasons.

 

Other nations also manipulate their outcome reporting with legal refusal of care for sectors of the their populations which generate the worst outcomes.  For example:  In England smokers and the obese are denied orthopedic surgeries by law.  Their outcomes and our outcomes are not an apples to oranges comparison.

 

These same other nations have health care provider shortages, and many of their systems are on the verge of collapse; yet here you sit spouting off about unicorns. 

 

 

 

Policing is a commodity, it is individually applied and there is only so much attention and patrolling that can be applied to specific areas. Yet we do not have a system where you need private police insurance to administer policing. Everything can be called a commodity if you break it down enough. So why do we treat policing which is paid for by the public and administered as such (while also having a private market for private security and investigation if you can afford it) but Healthcare which is a similar product (It isn't elastic, its finite, and people need it in emergency situations where they can't shop around) should be treated as a commodity despite the fact that it isn't a product you can ethically deny people and it is needed in emergency situations where you can't shop around? 

 

Please explain to me how a massive private insurance system where each provider has its own codes, own billing practices, own network of doctors and providers, and own billing administration is going to drive down costs for insurance? No amount of Durrrr government sucks waves that fact away. 

[DC Tom]

5 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

Policing is a commodity, it is individually applied and there is only so much attention and patrolling that can be applied to specific areas.

 

No, it's not.  That is a gross misunderstanding.

[billsfan89]

4 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

No, it's not.  That is a gross misunderstanding.

 

How so? There are so many man hours that can be dedicated to servicing a community in the same way that there are only so many man hours a doctor can provide patients? If Healthcare is a commodity because it is finite then why isn't policing which is equally as finite a commodity? Electricity, Water, and Healthcare are just as essential as policing and we treat those as commodities. Under the conditions to which people here have described Healthcare as being a commodity policing would fall under those criteria. Now if you want to say that neither healthcare nor policing should be treated as commodities then I would agree. But you can't specificity the conditions for why Healthcare is a commodity and then when I apply those same conditions to policing say those conditions don't apply. 

Edited December 31, 2018 by billsfan89

[TakeYouToTasker]

11 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

Policing is a commodity, it is individually applied and there is only so much attention and patrolling that can be applied to specific areas. Yet we do not have a system where you need private police insurance to administer policing. Everything can be called a commodity if you break it down enough. So why do we treat policing which is paid for by the public and administered as such (while also having a private market for private security and investigation if you can afford it) but Healthcare which is a similar product (It isn't elastic, its finite, and people need it in emergency situations where they can't shop around) should be treated as a commodity despite the fact that it isn't a product you can ethically deny people and it is needed in emergency situations where you can't shop around? 

 

As Tom said, this is a gross misunderstanding.

 

I'll let you break down your own argument.  Start with explaining the difference between shared utility and single use utility.

 

Please explain to me how a massive private insurance system where each provider has its own codes, own billing practices, own network of doctors and providers, and own billing administration is going to drive down costs for insurance? No amount of Durrrr government sucks waves that fact away.

 

This is a dumb argument.

 

First, I don't advocate for our current system.  I advocate for a market based system.  I've posted a detailed list of necessary changes here before.

 

Secondly, you're now simply regurgitating Marx's critique of bureaucratic and management redundancies within a competitive capitalist system.  It was a dopey critique when he made it, and it's even dopier now with 150 years of hindsight.   

[Tiberius]

1 hour ago, billsfan89 said:

The USA spends 17.8% of its GDP on healthcare, the next closest developed nation spends Switzerland spends 12.4% most developed nations with a form of single payer healthcare spend about 10-11% of GDP on healthcare. Healthcare is not a commodity, you aren't always in a position to shop around for it and it isn't an elastic commodity. I would rather employers pay a payroll tax (In place of what they pay for medical insurance now) so that everyone has a basic medicare plan than to have an insanely complicated system that is inefficient (Imagine calling the police and needing private police insurance and calling the right police in your police network to avoid ending up with a 10k bill) and just costs more money without providing better outcomes. 

 

I know there is an orthodoxy for a lot of people here that the government sucks and private industry is better at everything but yet anytime I travel to other nations in the developed world they seem to like their healthcare system and outright fear and laugh at the cost and complexity of the US healthcare system. I also think our privatized healthcare system is bad for someone wanting to start their own business. Small businesses and start ups have to put their own and their families health on the line just to be able to get off the ground. That's a horrible and perverse incentive. Our healthcare system also makes it almost impossible for you to freelance or go into business for yourself and maintain good coverage. 

 

You see the government sucks at everything. Just ignore real world evidence that single payer systems produce similar or better outcomes for less money. 

Thanks for that! 

 

 

And just some advice, don't think for a second Tom and Tasker care at all, in any way, about the facts, truth or whatever. They will say whatever and ask pointless questions to try and fatigue you and drag you down their rabbit holes of nonsense.  

[TH3]

2 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

The USA spends 17.8% of its GDP on healthcare, the next closest developed nation spends Switzerland spends 12.4% most developed nations with a form of single payer healthcare spend about 10-11% of GDP on healthcare. Healthcare is not a commodity, you aren't always in a position to shop around for it and it isn't an elastic commodity. I would rather employers pay a payroll tax (In place of what they pay for medical insurance now) so that everyone has a basic medicare plan than to have an insanely complicated system that is inefficient (Imagine calling the police and needing private police insurance and calling the right police in your police network to avoid ending up with a 10k bill) and just costs more money without providing better outcomes. 

 

I know there is an orthodoxy for a lot of people here that the government sucks and private industry is better at everything but yet anytime I travel to other nations in the developed world they seem to like their healthcare system and outright fear and laugh at the cost and complexity of the US healthcare system. I also think our privatized healthcare system is bad for someone wanting to start their own business. Small businesses and start ups have to put their own and their families health on the line just to be able to get off the ground. That's a horrible and perverse incentive. Our healthcare system also makes it almost impossible for you to freelance or go into business for yourself and maintain good coverage. 

 

You see the government sucks at everything. Just ignore real world evidence that single payer systems produce similar or better outcomes for less money. 

Don’t confuse the haters here with the fact that our ENTIRE HEALTH CARE DELIVERY STRUCTURE IS WHACK AND COSTS ALL OF US TENS OF THOUSANDS A YEAR...can you find a meme that says all this?  Or can you put a slogan on a hat?

Edited December 31, 2018 by TH3

[billsfan89]

5 hours ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

 

As Tom said, this is a gross misunderstanding.

 

I'll let you break down your own argument.  Start with explaining the difference between shared utility and single use utility.

 

 

 

 

This is a dumb argument.

 

First, I don't advocate for our current system.  I advocate for a market based system.  I've posted a detailed list of necessary changes here before.

 

Secondly, you're now simply regurgitating Marx's critique of bureaucratic and management redundancies within a competitive capitalist system.  It was a dopey critique when he made it, and it's even dopier now with 150 years of hindsight.   

 

Policing isn't always a shared use utility but even making that distinction (which I would argue) it still is a commodity for the neighborhood and for those who have access to it. Why not privatize it so that you can use the power of the free market? If you call 911 you should have to present your police insurance card after getting help. And if you call the wrong police network well you should have shopped around.

 

A market based system doesn't address the massive bureaucracy. How is it better or more efficient to have 1000s of policies, hundreds of companies with their own coding, and forcing providers to bill by patient instead of getting lump sum payments? 

 

You are being a hyperbolic fool avoiding my question as to how exactly does a free market address these ineffencies other than DURRRRRR what do you want Marxism? No there is no need for market efficiency through single use on consumer products. But healthcare is not a consumer product and treating it as such makes it expensive and inefficient.

[boyst]

34 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

Policing isn't always a shared use utility but even making that distinction (which I would argue) it still is a commodity for the neighborhood and for those who have access to it. Why not privatize it so that you can use the power of the free market? If you call 911 you should have to present your police insurance card after getting help. And if you call the wrong police network well you should have shopped around.

 

A market based system doesn't address the massive bureaucracy. How is it better or more efficient to have 1000s of policies, hundreds of companies with their own coding, and forcing providers to bill by patient instead of getting lump sum payments? 

 

You are being a hyperbolic fool avoiding my question as to how exactly does a free market address these ineffencies other than DURRRRRR what do you want Marxism? No there is no need for market efficiency through single use on consumer products. But healthcare is not a consumer product and treating it as such makes it expensive and inefficient.

This just shows you're a functional retard who doesn't understand the taxation system which is employed to provide civil services.  Congratulations, you're dumber than a 4th grader

[billsfan89]

16 hours ago, Boyst62 said:

This just shows you're a functional retard who doesn't understand the taxation system which is employed to provide civil services.  Congratulations, you're dumber than a 4th grader

 

Imagine someone thinking healthcare a service everyone needs access to is more akin to a civil service like policing than a commodity like shoes.

[B-Man]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DC Tom]

1 hour ago, billsfan89 said:

 

Imagine someone thinking healthcare a service everyone needs access to is more akin to a civil service like policing than a commodity like shoes.

 

That's equivalent to imagining someone doesn't know the difference between an exclusive-use and inexclusive-use resource.  

 

That's pretty easy to imagine.  Hell, you're demonstrating it now.

[boyst]

1 hour ago, billsfan89 said:

 

Imagine someone thinking healthcare a service everyone needs access to is more akin to a civil service like policing than a commodity like shoes.

Ok.  And?

16 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

That's equivalent to imagining someone doesn't know the difference between an exclusive-use and inexclusive-use resource.  

 

That's pretty easy to imagine.  Hell, you're demonstrating it now.

Hush. I was going to walk him to his fallacy and destroy his Utopia

[DC Tom]

3 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

Hush. I was going to walk him to his fallacy and destroy his Utopia

 

No you weren't.  He already posted that law enforcement is an individualized service; he's never going to get it.

[boyst]

Just now, DC Tom said:

 

No you weren't.  He already posted that law enforcement is an individualized service; he's never going to get it.

I had a pathway set up. 

 

A) ask what happens when someone is in an automotive accident in front of his house.  (Calls police?)

B) ask him what happens when someone has a heart attack in front of him while at Forever 21. (Calls ambulance?)

3) ask him if any services are being denied by the options he chose. (No)

4) ask him if any services provided are furnishing him a better and enriched life directly. (No)

5) ask him what he obligation does the recipient have to the services tenured...

6) profit.

[/dev/null]

16 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

I had a pathway set up. 

 

A) ask what happens when someone is in an automotive accident in front of his house.  (Calls police?)

B) ask him what happens when someone has a heart attack in front of him while at Forever 21. (Calls ambulance?)

3) ask him if any services are being denied by the options he chose. (No)

4) ask him if any services provided are furnishing him a better and enriched life directly. (No)

5) ask him what he obligation does the recipient have to the services tenured...

6) profit.

 

The problem with your plan is you failed to take into account the moment he realizes he's talked himself into a circle is when he disappears for a week

[TakeYouToTasker]

1 hour ago, DC Tom said:

 

That's equivalent to imagining someone doesn't know the difference between an exclusive-use and inexclusive-use resource.  

 

That's pretty easy to imagine.  Hell, you're demonstrating it now.

 

It's not even just that, though it starts there.

 

He's attempting to co-mingle two logically irreconcilable positions (positive and negative rights), by stating that if access to the protection of property rights under the rule of law isn't a commodity, then essentially nothing is, because of how he feels about it.

 

It's one of the worst arguments I've ever seen made here.

[/dev/null]

17 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

It's one of the worst arguments I've ever seen made here.

That's saying alot

[billsfan89]

7 hours ago, B-Man said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The USA spends 17.2% of GDP on healthcare and is far from the best in healthcare rankings. But yes the private market is so efficient with healthcare.

[Koko78]

2 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

The USA spends 17.2% of GDP on healthcare and is far from the best in healthcare rankings. But yes the private market is so efficient with healthcare.

 

So the magical government fairy will wave its wand and suddenly make health care efficient and cost-effective?

 

Can I have some of whatever mind-altering drugs you're taking?

[TakeYouToTasker]

4 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

The USA spends 17.2% of GDP on healthcare and is far from the best in healthcare rankings. But yes the private market is so efficient with healthcare.

 

You're making a massively intellectually dishonest argument, if we isolate it as you have here.  Massively.

 

That's not even touching your argument's other failings, most of which you've failed to effectively address.

[B-Man]

4 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

The USA spends 17.2% of GDP on healthcare and is far from the best in healthcare rankings. But yes the private market is so efficient with healthcare.

 

 

Increased spending does not equal improved healthcare.............as, I am sure, your healthcare rankings would show.

 

I have been a healthcare professional for over 40 years, on both sides of the (spending) issue. advocacy vs limited resources and EVERY time the government changes a standard for 'improvement' there is a decline in care.

 

 

.

[Koko78]

1 minute ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

 

You're making a massively intellectually dishonest argument, if we isolate it as you have here.  Massively.

 

That's not even touching your argument's other failings, most of which you've failed to effectively address.

 

I like how he thinks payroll taxes, which amount to roughly 6% of the GDP, will pay for healthcare, which costs 17.2% of GDP.

 

It's brilliant really. If you jack up payroll taxes by 400%, you'll be able to pay for healthcare, including all of the associated government waste and overspend! Granted, no one will actually be working after putting all but the largest companies out of business, but who the ***** cares? It's FREE!