The Trump Shutdown

[Foxx]

8 minutes ago, BeginnersMind said:

 

Cutting through the slats was never going to be that hard. It was just Trump trying to save face and offer a compromise. 

 

If that cross section of the hollow steel with concrete inside (that’s what it appears) is right, hand power tools would work fine to penetrate it. 

 

It will always need to be watched and patrolled to be effective. I assume that’s always been someone’s plan, not that the pols are eager to share those details. 

yeah, no. i'm not saying you can't cut through them. rather that you are going to need some serious tooling to do so. a 'saw' is not really going to do it. 

[Deranged Rhino]

 

[Deranged Rhino]

**********************

 

 

[Chef Jim]

3 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

**********************

 

 

 

I looked up leader in the dictionary and there was a picture of Dan Crenshaw.  

[boyst]

4 hours ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

 

I think it's because even I, bastion of patience that I am, get annoyed when I provide you two knuckleheads independently verifiable facts, and you go "Nah. You're wrong. Why are you so emotional?"

 

It's like trying to convince small children, only they are cleverer and less stubborn than you two.

 

 

Ahh man, it's a shame. I kind of liked him, but I guess he missed the fact that we keep finding them.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/10/solar-powered-drug-tunnel-discovered-on-mexican-border-with-california

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/23/us/drug-tunnel-arizona-mexico-trnd/index.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smuggling_tunnel#US–Mexico

 

It's almost like drug cartels are very motivated people and have more ingenuity than Lil' Baby Trump.

Dude, stop being some candy ass *feels* baby.  Snowflake af. You take this place way serious and then show you know nothing. The guardian!  That's like straight from the Britts intelligence wing.

[B-Man]

On #bordersecurity -

 

1) funding is for approx 230 miles of fencing, not 2000 miles as is often implied,

 

2) it’s also for top areas for improved border security,

 

3) it also includes many additional areas of support including immigration judges & humanitarian relief.

 

#KnowTheFacts

[BeginnersMind]

34 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

 

I looked up leader in the dictionary and there was a picture of Dan Crenshaw.  

 

He's about #50 on the list of Congresspeople who have already made this commitment.

 

Ds and Rs both. They are all getting all the political mileage they can get from grandstanding about it. 

 

45 minutes ago, Foxx said:

yeah, no. i'm not saying you can't cut through them. rather that you are going to need some serious tooling to do so. a 'saw' is not really going to do it. 

 

No, not serious. Some power handtools would get through it without much trouble.  

 

It doesn't matter--it's meant to be a detriment, not impassable. 

Edited January 10, 2019 by BeginnersMind

[Uncle Joe]

3 hours ago, B-Man said:

 

Shutdown reaches the people-will-die stage

 

People Will Die is the last-resort of the Democrat Party arguments.

CBS reported on June 26, 2017, "Nancy Pelosi warns 'hundreds of thousands of people will die' if GOP health bill passes."

 

The Daily Caller reported on July 10, 2018, "'People Will Die': Yale Students, Faculty Outraged Brett Kavanaugh Might End Abortion."

 

The Guardian reported on September 19, 2018, "'People will die': Obama official's warning as Trump slashes refugee numbers."

And of course, CNBC reported on December 4, 2017, "Economist Larry Summers predicts 10,000 will die per year due to tax reform."

The government shutdown reached that point today at 4:46 AM, when CNBC reported, "The 'doomsday' scenario: Here's what happens if the shutdown drags on. Economists warn that a catastrophe is in the making if the partial government closure continues for weeks or months."

The predictions are worthy of a global warmist. They include:
 

• 38 million low-income Americans lose food stamps
• 6 million face an uncertain timetable for collecting tax refunds
• 2 million without rental assistance and facing possible eviction
• 800,000 paycheck-less federal employees plunged into dire financial straits
• Shuttered parks and museums while overstressed airports cause tourism to tank
• Federal court system slows to a crawl
• Disaster relief money doesn't get to storm-ravaged areas
• Lapsed FDA and EPA inspections lead to dangerous outbreaks
• Private companies looking to go public are stuck in limbo
• Stock market plummets

And as always, if this keeps up, hair will grow on the palms of your hands.

CNBC reported on March 16, 2016, "If Trump wins, stocks will crash 50%: Wedbush pro."

 

 

https://donsurber.blogspot.com/2019/01/shutdown-reaches-people-will-die-stage.html

They forgot the most important headline that will affect millions:

[Koko78]

2 hours ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

Addition: In the meanwhile, unless opinion radically shifts, they can let Trump keep shooting himself in the foot for 2020.  Polls have people blaming Trump more for the shutdown than Democrats, and if they keep sending bill after bill for a clean passage to open the government and then negotiate for the wall, they keep looking reasonable while Trump keeps killing off votes for anyone outside of his cult.

 

Trump has no incentive to care about empty promises for future negotiation; Pelosi has already explicitly stated that they're not going to negotiate even if he agrees to open the government.

 

The Democrats have stupidly painted themselves into a corner with no weasel room. Popular opinion is eventually going to turn against their blatant unreasonableness, especially if Trump keeps the message going that he's at the White House ready to negotiate at any time.

 

This is why you never (as a politician) deal in absolutes. You either look weak or like an idiot if you have to cave.

[DC Tom]

1 hour ago, Foxx said:

bull####. those are not saw marks. in fact they more closely resemble slag marks from a torch. more than likely a plasma torch. good luck getting the requirements for that to cut a hole in the fence.

 

And the Marine Corps combat engineers to do it. 

1 hour ago, Deranged Rhino said:

Thread: 

 

 

I looked up some of the currently active "National Emergencies."  Most of them for the past ten years are things like "sanctions against human rights abusers in Burundi" or some such.

 

The left is disingenuously complaining about this not reaching the seriousness of a "National Emergency," which is a standard they set artificially, ridiculously low.

[DC Tom]

1 hour ago, Deranged Rhino said:

But much more on the left than the right, considering DC is largely a blue city with blue voting gov't workers.

 

No, the pressure will be on the right.  DC metro area is a Democratic stronghold; Republicans are the source of all evil.  

[Koko78]

1 hour ago, Deranged Rhino said:

But much more on the left than the right, considering DC is largely a blue city with blue voting gov't workers.

 

I suspect that it's far more likely that the federal workers will be telling their reps "Give him the $5 ***** billion so we can get back to work (with retroactive pay)" than they will be telling them, "Hey, don't worry about us, stick it to the orange bastard!"

[outsidethebox]

1 hour ago, Gary M said:

 

 

 

Oh yeah!!!!!!

[Tiberius]

2 hours ago, Foxx said:

you are just plain dense aren't you?

Lol, they cut a hole in it! 

 

Of course they did! Maybe we will need a wall to protect the stupid wall! 

23 minutes ago, Koko78 said:

 

I suspect that it's far more likely that the federal workers will be telling their reps "Give him the $5 ***** billion so we can get back to work (with retroactive pay)" than they will be telling them, "Hey, don't worry about us, stick it to the orange bastard!"

You didn't hear? They cut a hole in the steel slats! My God, you still want the thing? Will we have to guard the wall that is suppose to be guarding us?? 

 

They cut a whole hole in it! Guess who this makes someone look like a real as s hole! ?

Edited January 10, 2019 by Tiberius

[Tiberius]

Where are the libertarians? An out of control government! Will they stay silent? Yes 

 

 

Quote

 

Nayda Alvarez wants nothing to do with any border wall, but her acre of land in Rio Grande City, Tex., where she lives in a brown house along the dividing line between the United States and Mexico, has become of great interest to the U.S. government.

She, along with dozens of other landowners in the Rio Grande Valley, received surprise letters from the federal government in recent months, requests from officials who are seeking access to their properties for surveys, soil tests, equipment storage and other actions. It is, lawyers and experts say, the first step in the government trying to seize private property using the power of eminent domain — a contentious step that could put a lengthy legal wrinkle into President Trump’s plans to build hundreds of miles of wall, some of which passes through land like Alvarez’s.

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/trumps-border-wall-would-need-private-property-but-texas-landowners-plan-to-dig-in-for-lengthy-legal-fight/2019/01/10/d7e4cba8-1443-11e9-803c-4ef28312c8b9_story.html?utm_term=.04fa1257500d

[BeginnersMind]

54 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

And the Marine Corps combat engineers to do it. 

 

 

Not a tool handling bunch here, I take it. 

[B-Man]

YOUR DAILY TREACHER: If the Dems Want to Lose the Wall Fight, All They Have to Do Is Keep Talking. 

 

“I’m a #BuildTheWall skeptic, but the Dems are really starting to bring me around.”

 

 

 

NBC's myth of sawing through the wall

 

NBC reporters showed they know as much about saws as they do AR-15s.

 

The network reported, "A photo exclusively obtained by NBC News shows the results of the test after military and Border Patrol personnel were instructed to attempt to destroy the barriers with common tools."

Common tools?

My readers take care of me and one of my favorites called NBC out.

He wrote, "Cleary these were cut with an acetylene torch (one tank of acetylene and one tank of oxygen each weighting  about 70 plus pounds) something every illegal immigrant brings along as he comes to sneak into our country.

"How stupid of NBC. I guess a New Yorker would swallow this but a good ole boy from West Virginia does not. More Fake News Follies (that sounds like a good book title)."

With this leaked "exclusive," the Deep State derped itself again.

 

Notice, the NBC report is saying " Trump wall prototype "... and then about halfway through the article they say, " though this is a picture of existing steel bollards and these tests were performed years ago >....." bla bla bla. It a old picture helps a narrative of .. no wall will work, .. no, not ever

 

https://donsurber.blogspot.com/2019/01/nbcs-myth-of-sawing-through-wall.html

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

David Burge‏ @iowahawkblog 3h3 hours ago

 

My Chippendale Dancer name is Steele Slatts

 

 

 

.

Edited January 11, 2019 by B-Man

[Kevbeau]

1 hour ago, BeginnersMind said:

 

No, not serious. Some power handtools would get through it without much trouble.  

Out of curiosity, what brand of hand tools are you using?

[3rdnlng]

7 minutes ago, Kevbeau said:

Out of curiosity, what brand of hand tools are you using?

Mattel. After all, he's "Beginner'sMind".

Edited January 11, 2019 by 3rdnlng

[Deranged Rhino]

 

[DC Tom]

50 minutes ago, BeginnersMind said:

 

Not a tool handling bunch here, I take it. 

 

I have plenty of tools.  For wood, metal, masonry work.  Many of us do.

 

Far fewer of us have experience breaching field fortifications.  @The_Dude will claim so, but the closest he's got to combat engineering is playing "Polish mine detector," no doubt.

[The_Dude]

7 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

I have plenty of tools.  For wood, metal, masonry work.  Many of us do.

 

Far fewer of us have experience breaching field fortifications.  @The_Dude will claim so, but the closest he's got to combat engineering is playing "Polish mine detector," no doubt.

 

Ok, first off I never lie. I know you didn’t accuse me of lying, but you made me sound like a story teller which I am not. I’ve got some cool storie because I’ve got some cool scars and have done some seriously awesome stuff. 

 

Secondly, I did Iraq things. I’ve kicked in more than 1000 doors. I’ve blown some ***** up. I’ve accidently lit a Haj village on fire with a 203 flare. It was ***** hilarious. But I did not cross the Hindenburg Line. So scratch field fortifications. 

[DC Tom]

Sadly, he failed as a Polish mine detector.

[billsfan89]

5 hours ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

 

I reject your argument as it works with the assumption that our government should be funded to or beyond current levels.

 

That's two different arguments. The person had said that a national sales tax would be able to produce at or near the current levels of funding needed to continue the current size of the government. I think any illustration of the math would state otherwise. 

[billsfan89]

Wouldn't a ladder and a rope make any wall ineffective? Even Trump said so himself that rope and ladder technology would fool even a 40 foot wall. I am all for border security. Its completely necessary for a country to maintain borders and there is a vested national security interest but why do people think a wall which could be circumvented in so many different ways be the answer? Why not spend money on more border patrol agents and other surveillance technologies such as drones and advanced motion detection? I think the idea that a wall is the only effective way to secure the border is just not based in reality. 

[DC Tom]

1 minute ago, billsfan89 said:

Wouldn't a ladder and a rope make any wall ineffective? 

 

Not if it's a magic wall.  

[Deranged Rhino]

2 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

Wouldn't a ladder and a rope make any wall ineffective? Even Trump said so himself that rope and ladder technology would fool even a 40 foot wall. I am all for border security. Its completely necessary for a country to maintain borders and there is a vested national security interest but why do people think a wall which could be circumvented in so many different ways be the answer? Why not spend money on more border patrol agents and other surveillance technologies such as drones and advanced motion detection? I think the idea that a wall is the only effective way to secure the border is just not based in reality. 

 

It needs to be all of those things you listed and a wall in certain areas. Why? A wall offers permanence, where advanced funding for tech and manpower can be stripped back at the next budget impasse. 

[BeginnersMind]

It’s a symbolic solution to go with a campaign promise. It’s not going to be that effective and doing nothing is also not effective. 

 

Exchanging Dreamer legislation for the wall would be such a win for...wait for it...the country. 

 

But it would cost Trump and the D leadership points so why would anyone put country first?

 

Peggy Noonan’s editorial today properly chastises both sides in this squabble. Grow the ***** up. 

[3rdnlng]

5 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

Wouldn't a ladder and a rope make any wall ineffective? Even Trump said so himself that rope and ladder technology would fool even a 40 foot wall. I am all for border security. Its completely necessary for a country to maintain borders and there is a vested national security interest but why do people think a wall which could be circumvented in so many different ways be the answer? Why not spend money on more border patrol agents and other surveillance technologies such as drones and advanced motion detection? I think the idea that a wall is the only effective way to secure the border is just not based in reality. 

The illegals are using different tactics by coming in caravans and trying to flood the border. With our laws as they are, we couldn't handle the influx without releasing them into our country with a promise to return for a hearing. While a wall may be breached by a few illegals, great numbers will not be able to invade us. The wall impedes their crossing the border and gives us the time to move border control to the area.

[billsfan89]

Just now, Deranged Rhino said:

 

It needs to be all of those things you listed and a wall in certain areas. Why? A wall offers permanence, where advanced funding for tech and manpower can be stripped back at the next budget impasse. 

 

But if the permanence is ineffective (and comes at the costs of the environment and at the cost of citizens losing their land among other costs) what good does the permanence offer? People can dig under a wall, ladders and ropes can be left on the Mexico side (which America can do very little about,) and the wall in certain areas can be damaged. I just don't see what impact a wall could have other than symbolism. From a tatics stand point I don't see what value it actually serves. 

 

I would also disagree that it even offers permanence. You have to maintain a wall in case it gets damaged or weathered. So if the funding goes down the wall becomes less impactful too. 

[BeginnersMind]

8 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

It needs to be all of those things you listed and a wall in certain areas. Why? A wall offers permanence, where advanced funding for tech and manpower can be stripped back at the next budget impasse. 

 

The wall provides an obstacle. Nothing more. It’s better than nothing but it’s relatively nothing to a group of motivated people. 

 

Build the wall. Whatever. Just get the ***** past this. 

 

[billsfan89]

Just now, 3rdnlng said:

The illegals are using different tactics by coming in caravans and trying to flood the border. With our laws as they are, we couldn't handle the influx without releasing them into our country with a promise to return for a hearing. While a wall may be breached by a few illegals, great numbers will not be able to invade us. The wall impedes their crossing the border and gives us the time to move border control to the area.

 

Ports of entry do not have a wall. People who come in caravans to try and gain refugee status go through legal ports of entry such as border crossings. So the idea that it could prevent migrant caravans is also just not based in reality. 

[3rdnlng]

2 minutes ago, BeginnersMind said:

It’s a symbolic solution to go with a campaign promise. It’s not going to be that effective and doing nothing is also not effective. 

 

Exchanging Dreamer legislation for the wall would be such a win for...wait for it...the country. 

 

But it would cost Trump and the D leadership points so why would anyone put country first?

 

Peggy Noonan’s editorial today properly chastises both sides in this squabble. Grow the ***** up. 

Seriously? We had a deal a year or so ago that included a DACA fix. When a federal judge foolishly ruled against Trump he lost all his leverage and the dems ran away from the deal.

[BeginnersMind]

1 minute ago, 3rdnlng said:

Seriously? We had a deal a year or so ago that included a DACA fix. When a federal judge foolishly ruled against Trump he lost all his leverage and the dems ran away from the deal.

 

Congress can pass legislation for both better Dreamer legislation and also fund the wall. Courts aren’t going to be an issue. 

 

Or the Dems can get something else in exchange for the wall. I’m not making the deal. Just saying the adults on both sides need to make the deal. 

[Deranged Rhino]

2 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

But if the permanence is ineffective (and comes at the costs of the environment and at the cost of citizens losing their land among other costs) what good does the permanence offer?

 

The bolded is not an accurate statement, and is influencing the rest of your train of thought (in this post). The wall is very effective at deterrence and driving the flow of smugglers/traffickers towards easier to patrol/cover areas. It's a big border, takes a long time to go from station to station in some of the most heavily trafficked areas. A wall strategically placed can cut the response time down to minutes rather than hours. 

 

If there's no wall, and you attempt to do the same with just manpower and technology, that can go away and those lanes will open right back up. 

 

That's why you need all three. 

 

4 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

People can dig under a wall, ladders and ropes can be left on the Mexico side (which America can do very little about,) and the wall in certain areas can be damaged. I just don't see what impact a wall could have other than symbolism. From a tatics stand point I don't see what value it actually serves. 

 

Nothing is perfect, but it's not that easy. Cutting through steel will create noise/sparks that can be seen (and responded to) quite easily. Ropes/ladders are ineffective against certain designs. Digging tunnels, not to mention keeping them open, takes time and with cameras / drone coverage on the border can be spotted and dealt with. 

 

The tactical advantages to a wall are described above and come not from my imagination but from people who actually do the work on the ground. 

 

8 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

I would also disagree that it even offers permanence. You have to maintain a wall in case it gets damaged or weathered. So if the funding goes down the wall becomes less impactful too. 

 

This is not accurate. 

 

If you cut the budget, and lose the man power and technology and there's no wall there it becomes unprotected/vulnerable. The wall stays and helps a strained CBP/DHS deal with the crisis better than they're able to today. 

7 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

Ports of entry do not have a wall. People who come in caravans to try and gain refugee status go through legal ports of entry such as border crossings. So the idea that it could prevent migrant caravans is also just not based in reality. 

 

... They absolutely have walls.

 

And gates.

[Buffalo_Gal]

14 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

But if the permanence is ineffective (and comes at the costs of the environment and at the cost of citizens losing their land among other costs) what good does the permanence offer? People can dig under a wall, ladders and ropes can be left on the Mexico side (which America can do very little about,) and the wall in certain areas can be damaged. I just don't see what impact a wall could have other than symbolism. From a tatics stand point I don't see what value it actually serves. 

 

I would also disagree that it even offers permanence. You have to maintain a wall in case it gets damaged or weathered. So if the funding goes down the wall becomes less impactful too. 

I know!! We should do nothing!! We should let 30, 40, 50 million illegals flood into our country! Let's just give up on the idea of a sovereign nation and have.... open borders!! What a marvelous idea. /sarc 

***** that *****. ?

It will NEVER be good enough for some people. A more concrete form of border security is necessary. Start with 200 miles of wall. Then build 300 miles of wall, then 1000 miles, etc, etc, until it is enough to slow the masses. And then reinforce the damn wall to keep out people who are not citizens of this country, when they for some reason feel they can jump in line past people who come to the United States legally and feel they are entitled to suck off the dollars of American largess. 

Edited January 11, 2019 by Buffalo_Gal

[BeginnersMind]

12 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said:

Seriously? We had a deal a year or so ago that included a DACA fix. When a federal judge foolishly ruled against Trump he lost all his leverage and the dems ran away from the deal.

 

Congress can pass legislation for both better Dreamer legislation and also fund the wall. Courts aren’t going to be an issue. 

 

Or the Dems can get something else in exchange for the wall. I’m not making the deal. Just saying the adults on both sides need to make the deal. 

 

Here’s the Dem talking point. The President kept hundreds of thousands of Americans from their paychecks and was willing to keep them from getting paid to build an ineffective and wasteful wall. We put Americans back to work, and also have taken steps to care  for the American children of immigrants in this country, something the president was unwilling to do. Trump got his ineffective racist motivated wall. We got America back to work and a deal for American children. 

 

The Rep talking point. We kept the murderers and rapists and terrorists out of the country and fulfilled our promise. The Dems were willing to let them in and want to waste your money caring for illegal immigrant children to suck off the American welfare teat, which we oppose, but we have compassion for the children, and were willing to compromise to keep America safe. 

 

Woohoo. Everybody has their campaign talking points. The sun rises in the east tomorrow. 

Edited January 11, 2019 by BeginnersMind

[3rdnlng]

3 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

Ports of entry do not have a wall. People who come in caravans to try and gain refugee status go through legal ports of entry such as border crossings. So the idea that it could prevent migrant caravans is also just not based in reality. 

Ports of entry have barriers. Right now we have a temporary agreement with Mexico that they will keep the illegals in their country while they wait in line for their asylum hearings. A wall will funnel the illegals to a port of entry. The Border Patrol is solidly behind extending the wall, so maybe taking their advice is the prudent thing to do, eh?

[BeginnersMind]

11 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

Cutting through steel will create noise/sparks that can be seen (and responded to) quite easily.

 

 

 

 

Please make it harder to refute your arguments.

 

6 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

I know!! We should do nothing!! We should let 30, 40, 50 million illegals flood into our country! Let's just give up on the idea of a sovereign nation and have.... open borders!! What a marvelous idea. /sarc 

 

1

 

Nice scary numbers! How about a jillion? 

Edited January 11, 2019 by BeginnersMind

[Kevbeau]

3 minutes ago, BeginnersMind said:

 

Please make it harder to refute your arguments.

 

Still would like to know what sort of hand power tools you recommend. Just replaced my four board fence and I find that a sawzall is really struggling with the pressure treated posts.